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OfflineGrav
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Cause of mental anguish
    #919234 - 09/30/02 12:29 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Would you say that the causes of mental pain stem from a denial of simple logic and facts of reality.  You originally view the world in an unbiased way, and then gradually build this structure up in your brain, like a replication of reality but with little blotches in it where you have filled in your own information. This information does not comply with reality.  These contradictions cause painful loops of thought that have no resolution, until you finally accept "the facts" or, Reality.

I dunno, just a thought  :tongue:




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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Cause of mental anguish [Re: Grav]
    #919253 - 09/30/02 12:43 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Pretty much.


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Anonymous

Re: Cause of mental anguish [Re: Grav]
    #919280 - 09/30/02 01:15 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

This sounds like something I read before, Nathaniel Branden?


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Cause of mental anguish [Re: Grav]
    #919303 - 09/30/02 01:45 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

sometimes, but not always. sometimes you just make mistakes... from ignorance, not bias.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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Anonymous

Re: Cause of mental anguish [Re: Grav]
    #919327 - 09/30/02 01:58 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Would you say that the causes of mental pain stem from a denial of simple logic and facts of reality.

No, there are many who buy psychological comfort at the expense of reason. It can be the opposite of your statement. Eastern Mysticism is fraught with such error. It feels good to believe certain lies.

Cheers,


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OfflineMetasyn
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Re: Cause of mental anguish [Re: ]
    #919737 - 09/30/02 05:18 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Which tenets of Eastern Mysticism would you say are believed at the expense of reason? Do you know for sure they are they are illogical or could they just be a different interpretation of reality? i.e. western though sees things as dualistic, eastern as part of a whole, etc.

Personally, I think we start out life with no concept of reality at all and subsequent experience builds a mental framework with which to interact with it. All models are just approximations, and we can never really know how things actually are within our meager brains. A dog's view of reality will obviously be woefully incomplete because of his inferior mental capacity. We might be a little closer, but we're nowhere near close enough to try to call our view definitive.

Closeness to the correct view of reality (if one exists) probably doesn't have much of a correlation with happiness, since dogs are frequently happy and humans frequently depressed. Reality can be very disconcerting for some people, while very comforting to others. Happiness just has to do with the way our brains are wired, be it through genes or experience.


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OfflineAxiom420
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Re: Cause of mental anguish [Re: Grav]
    #919820 - 09/30/02 05:56 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I would say that mental pain stems from sin. Denial of simple logic and facts of reality are an attempt of the individual to rationalize his sin, to hide from it.

"All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight..." (Proverbs 16:2a)

For someone who has hidden his sin; his own sight of reality, that he has created for himself to live in, does not conform to reality.

The longer one follows this path the more the structure of bias (innacurate sight) builds up.

"There is a way which seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death." (Proverbs 16:25)


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"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstein


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Cause of mental anguish [Re: Metasyn]
    #919823 - 09/30/02 05:57 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

Personally, I think we start out life with no concept of reality at all and subsequent experience builds a mental framework with which to interact with it.




I don't believe experience builds that framework. Experience is just one more factor, like knowlodge, ability, genetics and perception, i believe they are key points to build reality but what really builds reality is conciousness. Take the example of meditation or psychoactives, they take your conciousness to witness new realities, so as you say "All models are just approximations, and we can never really know how things actually are within our meager brains. A dog's view of reality will obviously be woefully incomplete because of his inferior mental capacity. We might be a little closer, but we're nowhere near close enough to try to call our view definitive.", be it.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Cause of mental anguish [Re: Metasyn]
    #919848 - 09/30/02 06:08 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

In reply to:

A dog's view of reality will obviously be woefully incomplete because of his inferior mental capacity.



From a perspective dealing with olfactory and auditory components of reality, a dogs 'view' is much more accurate than a human's.


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OfflineMetasyn
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Re: Cause of mental anguish [Re: ]
    #920006 - 09/30/02 07:23 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

True, but a view of reality doesn't depend only on quantity and quality of sensory input. A dog may be able to smell his master from a long distance, but all he does is associate that smell with getting food or playing fetch. Humans can take perceptual inputs and organize them into a comprensive, communicatable model of the universe, which requires more advanced cognitive ability.

I think I know what the original poster meant about pure reality now. When we're born we have this endless stream of sensory input coming into our brains with no way of making sense of it all. Over time, we begin to filter out the unnecessary inputs and organize the remainder into an easy to understand framework. The experiencing of pure reality has been lost due to a "hardening to the world." This is one of the things that I think is regained, at least temporarily, by using psychedelics.


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Cause of mental anguish [Re: ]
    #920100 - 09/30/02 08:03 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Eastern Mysticism is fraught with such error. It feels good to believe certain lies.

A bold and unsubstantiated claim! Lies?! Come now, you know I can't let you get away with that. Please don't imply that the proponents of this (varied) philosophy are all on a mission to intentionally deceive.


I'm waiting...


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Anonymous

Re: Cause of mental anguish [Re: buttonion]
    #920280 - 09/30/02 09:06 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Is that baited breath I smell? :smile:

I know it is unfair to merely drop a prejudicial statement like that into a thread without adequate reasons to back it up, but that is my conviction.  I have several things that I will take the time to clear up but at the moment I do not have time for long tendentious dialogue.  I would address your girdle first.

Do not fear I will get to all my presuppositions in time.

I truly am sorry to make you wait.  I enjoy your thoughts and posts very much.

Cheers,


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Cause of mental anguish [Re: ]
    #920435 - 09/30/02 09:50 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

he, he, take your time.  :laugh: Like I said before, I definitely took mine earlier. You know I gots to stand up for the cause tho dog... can't be lettin you get away with no trash talkin in my hood!

*throws up complicated gang sign quickly and effortlessly* 


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


Edited by buttonion (09/30/02 09:52 PM)


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Cause of mental anguish [Re: buttonion]
    #920522 - 09/30/02 10:17 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

No, there are many who buy psychological comfort at the expense of reason. It can be the opposite of your statement. Eastern Mysticism is fraught with such error. It feels good to believe certain lies.


i dont see how you can see the differnce between lies and truth with that logic...


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Anonymous

Re: Cause of mental anguish [Re: buttonion]
    #920538 - 09/30/02 10:22 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:


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Anonymous

Re: Cause of mental anguish [Re: Grav]
    #920552 - 09/30/02 10:25 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Because I don't depend on feelings or the expedient.

I use reason and intuition to arrive at the closest approximation to the truth.

Cheers,


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Cause of mental anguish [Re: ]
    #920569 - 09/30/02 10:30 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

how can you take your reason, and the elements of knowledge with which you have interacted with all your life.. to be the final conclusion of the truth behind who people think they are.

isnt everything still in question?


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Cause of mental anguish [Re: Grav]
    #920580 - 09/30/02 10:32 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

isnt intuition the most powerful feeling you have?


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Anonymous

Re: Cause of mental anguish [Re: Grav]
    #920582 - 09/30/02 10:32 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes.

What, exactly, do you mean?


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Cause of mental anguish [Re: ]
    #921573 - 10/01/02 04:46 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

maybe, i tend to be the first one to confuse myself...

um... lets see.. 
is it a fact that all of your knowledge and experience is no more vast than you, and how you see the world?

true, im sure alot of people are very confused and have delusions of enlightenment, and finding "their inner child" and whatnot.. i know i have victimized myself many times, and sent myself on dead-end spiritual goose-chases. but i couldnt base conclusions on my and everyone else's 'mistakes'.

i don't know if im debating with you anymore, or just trying to make sense out of my thoughts :smile:


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