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OfflineHarveyWalbanger
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Why language is your greatest barrier
    #918954 - 09/30/02 08:57 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Because you think in terms of spoken english. And could not simply stop any time you want. Should something like life or god be too difficult, or poorly explained, There isnt really another avenue to be persued.... Sure you could go towards another language, but it probably has the same problem. Written symbols, I'm unsure could contain the neccessary information to tell us why the universe is. In order to understand how life could spontaneously generate in the primordial soup, we'd need trilllions and trillions of years worth of symbols, signifigantly more space consuming than the reaction itself. Heh, maybe you're the record of time.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: HarveyWalbanger]
    #918975 - 09/30/02 09:17 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Sometimes I wish I could just beam my thoughts into the head of whoever I need to communicate with. Seems unlikely that most people will ever understand what I'm thinking if all I have is verbal language to communicate with.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Offlineakyouser_oner
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: HarveyWalbanger]
    #918992 - 09/30/02 09:33 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

the reason language is our biggest barrier is that spoken language pertains to linear thought. most 'deep' thoughts (ie: psychedelic revelations) are non-linear. when you try to convert it to language, it comes out sounding schitzophrenic....


--------------------
-akyouser.oner
<(((((((((((((((@~~~


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Offlinevaporbrains
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: akyouser_oner]
    #919068 - 09/30/02 10:42 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

bleh.


--------------------
All refrences to and statements concerning mushrooms, mushroom cultivation, and mushroom related paraphrenalia refer specifically to the cultivation of legal species.


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: HarveyWalbanger]
    #919129 - 09/30/02 11:21 AM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Because you think in terms of spoken english. And could not simply stop any time you want. 




I don't. Do you guys? How can you think in words? Do you picture a sheet of paper with words on it? Do you hear spoken English words in your head? My thoughts come in all sorts of formats; pictures, feelings, 'presences' etc. But if I thought only in words I'd shoot myself. Language is a structure laid overtop everything else we know. Before a child learns English, does he not think at all?

:confused:

Someone enlighten me here, my head hurts. 


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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Anonymous

Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: HarveyWalbanger]
    #919208 - 09/30/02 12:12 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

.


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OfflineStS
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #919249 - 09/30/02 12:41 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

You do think in words. Any thoughts or ideas you have can only be noted or explained to yourself using the words and terms you know. If you say to yourself, well I see a picture, and that is not words, you are not realizing that you are using the word "picture" to give definition to your idea.


--------------------

"You took too much, man....too much, too much!"


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Anonymous

Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: HarveyWalbanger]
    #919295 - 09/30/02 01:32 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Language is not a barrier, it is a bridge. Just because it can't carry all traffic, does not make it a barrier. There are other ways of getting your ideas across, some ideas just don't 'travel' well.


Edited by Evolving (09/30/02 01:32 PM)


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #919347 - 09/30/02 02:07 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)


Quote:

. Before a child learns English, does he not think at all?





:smile:

Quote:

 

Language is not a barrier, it is a bridge. Just because it can't carry all traffic, does not make it a barrier. There are other ways of getting your ideas across, some ideas just don't 'travel' well. 




:smile: 


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: StS]
    #919353 - 09/30/02 02:11 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

In reply to:

You do think in words. Any thoughts or ideas you have can only be noted or explained to yourself using the words and terms you know. If you say to yourself, well I see a picture, and that is not words, you are not realizing that you are using the word "picture" to give definition to your idea




this post is.... dumb?
if you say "I see a picture for this thought" it is communicating what your thoughts seem like to you, not what those thoughts are
you are not defining that thought by "picture"
if you think only in words, and you've never had a thought that isn't expressed well by your current vocabulary, then you have my deepest pities, because your mind isn't very creative.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisibleMetasyn
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: ]
    #919360 - 09/30/02 02:17 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Also, words in the form of sentences are only one way of communicating thoughts. Often times poetry or a more impressionistic form of writing does a much better job than an essay-format idea. Any kind of artistic expression probably evolved out of a desire to communicate concepts that could not be transmitted well through ordinary words. Music, painting, dance, and even facial expressions tell more of a person's inner state than anything that could come out of their mouth. I've found that if you put the time and energy into trying to understand someone else, you can usually do it pretty well.


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: StS]
    #919397 - 09/30/02 02:37 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

I guess I'm a freak. I think more in the feelings that certain concepts invoke in me, rather than the words one would use to relate them. The only expection is when I'm remembering spoken or written words, or when I'm using a computer ("File, New, Folder"). :smirk:  But I guess that's the same thing.   


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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OfflineAmber_Glow
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: HarveyWalbanger]
    #919430 - 09/30/02 02:49 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

You are right, in ways.

Often when having some sort of psychedelic experience, one wishes to share that experience with the people you are with.  Often when you are experiencing something that someone else is not, you have no way to express it to them because it is beyond English, which can be frustrating for both the experiencer and the person who is trying to relate.

Often when I do drugs with friends we try to take equal doses so that we can be "on the same level", so that often if one person is experiencing something or seeing something amazing, generally the others can see something similar or share a similar experience.

It is a great feeling when you are tripping with a group of friends and you all are sharing in the same amazing experience, perhaps listening to the same music together or staring at the same clouds in the sky.  Imagine if through some communication you express any feeling to others, that would be great.

Ahh well, communication is hard. :smile: 


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InvisibleSmack31
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #920061 - 09/30/02 07:47 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

I'm the same way CyberChump...


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #920361 - 09/30/02 09:31 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

You've got it right on the dime, man. Biggest hurdle for me in communication is "translating" what I am thinking into spoken language. More often than not my thoughts come out as a jumble of words or sounds and I have to stop and think for a moment how exactly to say what I'm thinking. My best friends are those people who know what I mean even when words fail me.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineStS
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #920488 - 09/30/02 10:07 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

First off, why are you making this personal and basically attacking me? What did I do to you? And anyways you missed my point completely.
In reply to:

you are not defining that thought by "picture"




The very act of trying to define means to apply a term to, for the point of memorizing and communicating that idea to others.


--------------------

"You took too much, man....too much, too much!"


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: StS]
    #920502 - 09/30/02 10:13 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

I dissagree man, the only time I use words in my head is when I am trying to express a thought to the outside world. The rest of the time my thoughts are more or less silent (at least in the sense of verbal language).


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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Anonymous

Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: StS]
    #920571 - 09/30/02 10:30 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

First off, why are you making this personal and basically attacking me? What did I do to you?

Be careful to note that this medium is difficult to interpret intentions. I saw no attack either implicit or explicit.

Perception is a tricky thing. If you feel attacked look within.

edit: typo


Edited by Lozt Soul (10/01/02 02:54 AM)


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #920743 - 09/30/02 11:24 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

"Before a child learns English, does he not think at all?"

Why is it that children are a lot more creative and open minded than adults. it might have something to do with lack of mind confining symbol associations.



--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: StS]
    #920780 - 09/30/02 11:34 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

In reply to:

The very act of trying to define means to apply a term to, for the point of memorizing and communicating that idea to others.




but you're not communicating the idea!
you're only communicating your perception of the idea which cannot fit into words
why do you not understand this?
telling someone "my thoughts are in pictures" or any other way of thinking, has nothing to do with your subjective understanding of what that picture means


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: HarveyWalbanger]
    #920960 - 09/30/02 07:45 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Thoughts often come in the english language yes, intellectual ones at least. I have many thoughts that aren't put into words, more like emotion and impulse. Many thoughts that never from words, and when i try to *put* them into words I do a marginal job.

I try not to limit myself with the attempt of putting thoughts in language though, in order to communicate them, i let my ideas remain in impulse form and well up within my body, and if i want to communicate them quite often opt for sending the energy or communicating with my eyes, people understand these as well or better than any limiting words.


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OfflineAxiom420
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: HarveyWalbanger]
    #921297 - 09/30/02 10:57 PM (19 years, 28 days ago)

Language isn't a barrier.
Language is a gift.
If you don't value it,
it becomes meaningless to you.

I pitty the person who cannot fully accept the left brain and fully accept the right brain, the connection between the two, and take advantage of the situation. Such people are few, therefore I pitty much.


--------------------
"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
- Albert Einstein


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OfflineStS
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #921587 - 10/01/02 05:01 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

I knew I shouldn't have gotten involved in this conversation  :tongue:
But I do understand your point perfectly AJ, you just are missing my point entirely.  And in the end, we are both trying to communicate an idea to each other in words, which you say an idea can not fit into, so this whole conversation becomes pointless.
:wink:


--------------------

"You took too much, man....too much, too much!"


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: StS]
    #921670 - 10/01/02 06:25 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)



I'm talking about the ideas that can't fit into words.
some can. such as what I've been expressing to you in this thread.

stop acting dumb.


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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OfflineStS
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #921720 - 10/01/02 06:56 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

Jeez, why do you insist on childish name calling? To me resorting to "mud-slinging" is one of the biggest signs of unintelligence.


--------------------

"You took too much, man....too much, too much!"


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OfflineStS
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #921733 - 10/01/02 07:02 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

And also, you seem to be contradicting yourself by saying that SOME ideas CAN fit into words because wouldn't you really just be...
In reply to:

only communicating your perception of the idea


and not the idea itself?


--------------------

"You took too much, man....too much, too much!"


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OfflineMarkZero
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: StS]
    #921803 - 10/01/02 08:33 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

Language is a barrier. If you can't get your point or meaning across, it's definitely a barrier.
If we live in the same place, we can still experience a breakdown in communication simply because we may have learned different language skills. A person is also judged a great deal by how they use-or misuse-their language skills(a person who has poor grammar or spelling is often labeled as ignorant or immature, while the other end of the spectrum are often considered credible based solely on the words they use. According to that logic, we may as well vote the Spellchecker as our next president).

Your ability to get your idea across to another person is limited or enhanced by your understanding of language or words..but your language doesn't care if people understand you or not. Language does not teach you language...another human being teaches you their version, and you build your own from there..but the foundation was not yours.

According to written history, language was designed to be a barrier.
Ask the people who were building the Tower of Babel.

Your own words can also be your demise;
Matthew 15:11
Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man."

It's been my experience that everyone has a lot to say, and no one is really taking the time to hear them.

I have noticed on many occasions that a person was misunderstood and labeled many not-so-nice things, simply because the language got in the way or didn't didn't come across clearly. Misquotes, out-of-context quotes, or complete ommision of information when replying are so common that the have become acceptable.

In conversations, people frequently talk over one another or have rambling discussions that resemble rallies for people with attention deficit syndrome, in their effort to be heard above the rest of the 'white noise'..or just to make themselves seem interesting.

Berhane Sellasie once said(not a direct quote) that by taking what he says and changing it to what you think he says you do him an injustice; to understand you must take it as it is, for what it is, and nothing more.

..And let's not forget the old saying: A picture is worth a thousand words.

my alter-ego used to say "let's all create a new language: we'll start with words we already know"

..I suggest we learn to love ourselves before it's made illegal"...
Hoobastank

..of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong....


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Offlinevaporbrains
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #921961 - 10/01/02 10:03 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

this thread is a great example of what happens when we use imprecise language over an entropic communications channel. We get gibberish. (Mark: i can do without the etymology of gibberish)


--------------------
All refrences to and statements concerning mushrooms, mushroom cultivation, and mushroom related paraphrenalia refer specifically to the cultivation of legal species.


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: MarkZero]
    #921962 - 10/01/02 10:03 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

In reply to:

Language is a barrier. If you can't get your point or meaning across, it's definitely a barrier.



How is that? That makes no sense. If language cannot serve to get your point acrosss, it is not because it's a barrier, it is because it is inadequate for the task at hand. Just because you cannot use a hammer to remove a screw does not mean that the hammer is stopping you from unscrewing things. Do not confuse lack of utility with obstruction of goals. These are two different issues.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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OfflineMarkZero
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: Autonomous]
    #922163 - 10/01/02 11:35 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

In reply to:

i can do without the etymology of gibberish



And alot of people could do without you talkin shit all the time, contributing less than zero, and wasting space with your hollow attempts to agitate people vis-a-vis your foul attitude.
Interesting how I bust you for basicly talking ignorant shit in growlogs (to which you had no clever reply), only to have you attempt this diluted retaliation with some canned statement which doesn't even apply to the topic, it's merely a sad attempt at a personal attack meant to derail the discussion. Smoke & mirrors....silly rabbit.
Oops, fuck you, dude.

Vaporbrains, I've seen you around, and all you do is spread negativity. Sparring with words on the internet to fill a void in your life is not living, it's an imitation.
I have never heard a useful thing out of you. For that reason, I'll just ignore you in hopes that you might mature, at least that way I don't have to 'listen' to the foundless crap you spew.

..by any chance have either of you ever had anything genuinely constructive to say regarding mycology, or are you just 'AOL chatroom overflow', trolling message boards?...I'm just curious.

Now then...rather than focus any further on the nuances of the intellectually diminished:
In reply to:


Just because you cannot use a hammer to remove a screw does not mean that the hammer is stopping you from unscrewing things.



Lack of the right tools is an obstacle in getting the job accomplished. It can be an obstruction to your goal, if your goal is to get the job done.

If a hammer is all you have, it will most likely hinder you.

If I have inadequate fuel in my gas tank, it will be an obstacle if I need to drive a distance.
If I have inadequate sterilization, my mycellium can become contaminated.

The distance or the subterranean growth are not the obstacles; the inadequacies are.

If you don't have any other tools, it is definitely a barrier to completing the task; not to mention that using the wrong tool will not get the job done correctly.
Therefor: if your language skills are inadequate to get the job done, they will be an obstacle or barrier to being understood.
Something that "is inadequate for the task at hand" (as you put it) will be an obstruction to achieving your goal.
Language is like a toolbox: you can't pull out a word you don't have. If you need a Torx bit, and all you have is a flathead screwdriver....or a hammer....
Again, a barrier; you can't speak about what you don't know..or at least you shouldn't, lest you make a fool of yourself...but it can be learned. You can buy the right tool, you can learn to speak clearly and concisely....but just like screws, new things come along frequently enough to require new tools from time to time.

That whole lack of this and obstruction of that...sounds like a lot of doublespeak, although I did smoke some pot today. It sounds like you are implying that lack of language skills is something someone chooses to exhibit.
Maybe you would like to elaborate in respects to what I origionally posted, if you can.

Your misinterpretation of what I had to say-from both of you-only serves to reinforce my opinion. Griefers, gofig.

In parting, it fills me with much satisfaction to know that my opinion bothers you enough to illicit a response. Thanks.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: MarkZero]
    #922207 - 10/01/02 11:57 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

*gets lighter*

LET THE FLAME WARS BEGIN!!!!

*cue epic music*

Woo hoo!!!
________________________________

Seriously, Shroomism, Mr_Mushrooms, Lozt Soul... has this thread not deteriorated?

Personal attacks brought over from other forums... sheesh, THAT'S ego.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: HarveyWalbanger]
    #922228 - 10/01/02 12:06 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

Now if we would all just used telepathy none of these miscommunications would ever occur  :wink: 


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: StS]
    #922240 - 10/01/02 12:12 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

oh my fucking god.
SOMETIMES you can express ideas through words.
SOMETIMES you do not know the words or words don't exist to express certain ideas, and rather than fitting the thought into language, you percieve it a different way.
I never stated that I was talking about all thoughts, and your supposed refutations of my statements make no sense, and you are ACTING DUMB. it's not name-calling, it's what i think. would you rather me say "hey, your recent posts are exceedingly nonsensical"?
perhaps "you're a fucking dumbshit nigger" would suffice? it's up to you. excuse me for having an opinion that you seem rather unintelligent and/or possibly illiterate, since you repeatedly miss my point and choose to attack ideas that I haven't expressed.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



Edited by Albino_Jesus (10/01/02 12:13 PM)


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OfflineStS
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: Shroomism]
    #922242 - 10/01/02 12:12 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

:sending telepathic message to Shroomism:

:grin:


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"You took too much, man....too much, too much!"


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: Sclorch]
    #922246 - 10/01/02 12:14 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

Yes it has. I think this thread has descended into flame war potential.

People... put your shit aside and try to treat each other with respect. At least while in this forum.

/me slams gavel


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: Shroomism]
    #922249 - 10/01/02 12:15 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

People... put your shit aside and try to treat each other with respect. At least while in this forum.

 





sorry if I can't respect people who can't read  :frown:


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Why language is your greatest barrier [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #922265 - 10/01/02 12:19 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

Let's try and learn to be productive with each other.
Click


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