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Invisibletruekimbo2
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Re: 'wasting' a vote [Re: Jawofmalak]
    #9182789 - 11/04/08 01:49 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


I wonder how many of the people who voted Nader in 2000 would have changed their vote if they knew Bush would get in by such a narrow margin, particularly if they knew what would transpire over the next 8 years.




if they were smart they'd be overjoyed to vote for nadar again.

voting for a 3rd party and having it act as a spoiler is pretty much the best vote you can make, it forces the party you took votes from to take your seriously.

look at how suddenly global warming became a serious issue afterwards... championed by al gore of all people.


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: 'wasting' a vote [Re: Jawofmalak]
    #9182799 - 11/04/08 01:51 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah yeah the system is shit... It's the system screwing us again,  system system system

'Shoulds' aside, what do you suggest?

IMO McCain and Obama are exactly the kinds of politicians the public at large wants.  They do represent the public as a whole, like it or not.  98% will vote for one of them, and it's not as if most of that 98% would vote for one of the small-time candidates if they had a chance of winning.  "Special interest groups" is just what one given part of the general public calls the other parts.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

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InvisibleJawofmalak
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Re: 'wasting' a vote [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9182911 - 11/04/08 02:12 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

i suggest we get off of our asses and actually do something about what is happening. And that involves no longer voting    for establishment candidates. 86% of the population votes for candidates because, "they don't really have a choice". Only 13 percent feel that their chosen candidate truly represents them. And what do you know, Dick Cheney has a 13% approval rating.

During the American Revolution, initially only 3% of the population supported it, and at it's peak it rose to around 10%, and we where able to take down the most powerful empire on Earth. As long as people don't lose hope, there can be change.


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OfflineRebirtha
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Re: 'wasting' a vote [Re: Jawofmalak]
    #9182936 - 11/04/08 02:15 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

You better start organizing now for the 2012 elections if you want to see some change.


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: 'wasting' a vote [Re: Jawofmalak]
    #9183051 - 11/04/08 02:51 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Jawofmalak said:
i suggest we get off of our asses and actually do something about what is happening. And that involves no longer voting  ...





I don't see how low voter turnout is going to make the world a better place.

But I keep hearing this idea.  It's like

1. Don't vote
2. ?????
3. A better world

Quote:


During the American Revolution, initially only 3% of the population supported it, and at it's peak it rose to around 10%, and we where able to take down the most powerful empire on Earth. As long as people don't lose hope, there can be change.




I guess I just don't believe that these fabled cultural changes everyone is yearning for will be the result of a political action.  It won't be an election or a revolution or a new deal.  Change will take the form of a long, gradual reconsideration of personal values, one individual at a time.  Consumerism, self-righteousness, paranoia and all the other things that give the US its political and economic identity will always produce the same vein of presidential candidates and economic situations.  Once individuals change, cultural values begin to change; only then can politics follow.

America (well, most of humanity) has a problem with being happy.  A better economy, a different president, more disposable income, or cheaper gas will not fix this.  This chronic dissatisfaction is a personal problem, addressable on the level of the individual only.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: 'wasting' a vote [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9183120 - 11/04/08 03:08 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

As John Quincy Adams said, "Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost."


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: 'wasting' a vote [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #9183134 - 11/04/08 03:11 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

JQA can have his sweet masturbatory reflections.  I say strategic voting can keep the worst of the bunch out of the oval office.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleZiggen
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Re: 'wasting' a vote [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9183165 - 11/04/08 03:20 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

WhiskeyClone said:
JQA can have his sweet masturbatory reflections.  I say strategic voting can keep the worst of the bunch out of the oval office.




I suppose, if you live in a state where there's actually some question as to who will win.  For those of us who live in a state that is not Ohio or Florida, or about three other states where the race is actually in question, voting one's consciense is really the only logical thing.  It's all about ballot access.

And, really, even if you do live in a so-called "battle-ground state", it hardly matters.  One is old and white.  The other is younger and only half white.  That is essentially where the differences end in my eyes.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: 'wasting' a vote [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9183681 - 11/04/08 05:02 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

WhiskeyClone said:
"Lesser of two evils" is a figure of speech, it doesn't mean either candidate is 'evil.'





it's a figure of speech that says you have the choice between
pile of crap and a pile of poop, take your pick, it has
nothing to do with religious zealots or anything else anymore
its simply an expression that states the choices are poor but
as opposed to looking for another option you're going to go
for the one that may be less bad based on how warm the poo is


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: 'wasting' a vote [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9183725 - 11/04/08 05:07 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

WhiskeyClone said:
I say strategic voting can keep the worst of the bunch out of the oval office.




this is how strategic voting is conducted...
are you sure this is how you'd like to see it



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OfflineGainer
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Re: 'wasting' a vote [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9183806 - 11/04/08 05:28 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I did a write in for Ron Paul.  I had an argument with my parents about the lesser of two evils bullshit.  They said you have to vote for someone thats going to win and told them wanna bet.  Just because your candidate probably won't win doesn't mean you shouldn't vote for them.  You should be making a statement who you feel is right for the job.  I dunno having a hard time putting in words what I'm trying to say but voting for someone thats not going to win is saying a lot more than not voting at all.  I think thats what I'm trying to get at.


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"I mean, it's like a koala bear crapped a rainbow in my brain!"
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InvisibleLeftyBurnz
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Re: 'wasting' a vote [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
    #9183876 - 11/04/08 05:42 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Penguarky Tunguin said:
I dislike the "wasting a vote" argument almost as much as I hate the "lesser of two evils" argument.

Really, you're going to vote for the lesser of the two evils?  You're going to make the conscious decision to vote for something that in your mind is evil?  Even if it the lesser?  Really?  See, if I thought that, I'd vote for something that wasn't evil, even if it had no chance of winning. :shrug:





funny. i got BOTH of those arguments several times at work today.  im so sick of politics.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: 'wasting' a vote [Re: Gainer]
    #9183951 - 11/04/08 05:59 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Gainer said:
I had an argument with my parents about the lesser of two evils bullshit.  They said you have to vote for someone thats going to win and told them wanna bet.





"this aint no horse race dad, as soon as you realize that you
might start voting on issues and candidate performance"


Quote:

Just because your candidate probably won't win doesn't mean you shouldn't vote for them.  You should be making a statement who you feel is right for the job.  I dunno having a hard time putting in words what I'm trying to say





short and to the point, what better way is there to put it


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InvisibleJawofmalak
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Re: 'wasting' a vote [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #9185956 - 11/04/08 10:35 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

WhiskeyClone said:
Quote:

Jawofmalak said:
i suggest we get off of our asses and actually do something about what is happening. And that involves no longer voting  ...





I don't see how low voter turnout is going to make the world a better place.

But I keep hearing this idea.  It's like

1. Don't vote
2. ?????
3. A better world

Quote:


During the American Revolution, initially only 3% of the population supported it, and at it's peak it rose to around 10%, and we where able to take down the most powerful empire on Earth. As long as people don't lose hope, there can be change.




I guess I just don't believe that these fabled cultural changes everyone is yearning for will be the result of a political action.  It won't be an election or a revolution or a new deal.  Change will take the form of a long, gradual reconsideration of personal values, one individual at a time.  Consumerism, self-righteousness, paranoia and all the other things that give the US its political and economic identity will always produce the same vein of presidential candidates and economic situations.  Once individuals change, cultural values begin to change; only then can politics follow.

America (well, most of humanity) has a problem with being happy.  A better economy, a different president, more disposable income, or cheaper gas will not fix this.  This chronic dissatisfaction is a personal problem, addressable on the level of the individual only.




The first time you quoted me you cut my sentence in half. i didn't say we shouldn't vote, that does nothing to fix the problem, i said: And that involves no longer voting for establishment candidates Voting is good, it's what causes change, if we don't vote then we have absolutely nothing to complain about.

In order to get the message of real change out there, we have to start acting NOW. Slow and progressive is just an excuse not to do anything about the problem. In 2000 Bush was hailed as the Conservative Messiah, he was going to cut spending, bring down the size of government, stop nation building and foreign wars, and look at how that worked out. He had a 90% approval rating after 9/11. That's what the philosophy of "lesser of two evils" gets you.


--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: 'wasting' a vote [Re: Jawofmalak]
    #9187528 - 11/05/08 07:38 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Jawofmalak said:
In order to get the message of real change out there, we have to start acting NOW. Slow and progressive is just an excuse not to do anything about the problem. In 2000 Bush was hailed as the Conservative Messiah, he was going to cut spending, bring down the size of government, stop nation building and foreign wars, and look at how that worked out. He had a 90% approval rating after 9/11. That's what the philosophy of "lesser of two evils" gets you.




No.  Bush got in because so many people voted for Nader instead of the lesser of two evils.  And yes, people did lose their minds for a while after 9/11.

You keep saying 'act now' but you don't say what that means.  Do you mean voting third party will save us?  If those fringe candidates ever become popular enough to win, it's because they've compromised their unpopular principles enough to be popular.  Every election is a popularity contest. 

That's how the winners win: appeal to the most people, alienate the fewest.  This is an intrinsic limitation of large-scale elections; it will never produce a radical president.  Given that, I say vote for the best of the candidates who can win. 

Sorry, I didn't mean to cut your sentence in half; there was a weird space in there.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: 'wasting' a vote [Re: supra]
    #9187947 - 11/05/08 09:49 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

There is no such thing as a "lesser evil". The introduction of evil to any body compromises its full integrity. Lesser evils are a partisan issue with no real meaning and are just used to draw those who have no preference for the two major parties to vote for one of them.


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