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InvisibleFeeling_of_Sound
Psychedelic Theorist
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Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 627
Loc: Infinite Possibilities
abolish the electoral college.
    #9184173 - 11/04/08 06:35 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

It was put into effect back in the day because the founding fathers believed the citizens of this country were too ill-informed/stupid to make an educated decision.

What with the media coverage, internet, and schooling I think the electoral college should be removed. The electors don't need to heed voters' wishes even if the votes are overwhelmingly weighed towards one specific candidate. I think we should count the actual individual votes and decide that way. forget representational democracy, how bout true democracy.


--------------------
"Once expanded to the dimensions of a larger idea,
[the mind] never returns to its original size."

  -Oliver Wendell Holmes


"Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." - Ralph Waldo Emerson


[quote] underfliptown said:
Adaptation to a sick society is no measure of mental health. [/quote]

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: Feeling_of_Sound]
    #9184180 - 11/04/08 06:36 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

It was put into effect back in the day because the founding fathers believed the citizens of this country were too ill-informed/stupid to make an educated decision.





Source?

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Offlinemonkeywrench
Why Not?


Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 908
Last seen: 19 days, 45 minutes
Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: DieCommie]
    #9184223 - 11/04/08 06:41 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

most people are stupid or at least ignorant.


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[quote]skalthren said:
It's nice of you to imply that I've been brainwashed by the government, but the truth is that I'm simply intelligent enough to recognize the subtleties of these issues instead of going "durr hurr, weed should totally be legal!"[/quote]

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Offlinemoe.phan
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: monkeywrench]
    #9184234 - 11/04/08 06:43 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

i couldn't agree more. its way outdated and needs to be removed. LET THE VOTERS DECIDE

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Invisiblezorbman
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Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: Feeling_of_Sound]
    #9184917 - 11/04/08 08:16 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Obama is clobbering McCain right now in the electoral college but in the popular vote Obama only leads by one percent!


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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Invisiblepinkfloydms
!!!!!
Male

Registered: 05/26/04
Posts: 4,470
Loc: City of Dreams
Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: zorbman]
    #9185220 - 11/04/08 09:04 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

That will change when the west coast reports in.


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Muppet Said:

so yeah:
- 'sex' five times
- once with a man
- once with a cadaver
- and thrice with actual women(all of which were prostitutes)
Best story ever!

www.panicstream.com :thumbup:

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Invisiblepinkfloydms
!!!!!
Male

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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: zorbman]
    #9185548 - 11/04/08 09:43 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Obama is clobbering McCain right now in the electoral college but in the popular vote Obama only leads by one percent!




They just said on CNN that his popular vote would prolly be the largest win seen since Lyndon B. Johnson.


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Muppet Said:

so yeah:
- 'sex' five times
- once with a man
- once with a cadaver
- and thrice with actual women(all of which were prostitutes)
Best story ever!

www.panicstream.com :thumbup:

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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: Feeling_of_Sound]
    #9185913 - 11/04/08 10:31 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

are you implying using just the popular vote?


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Invisiblemofo
Hobby Jingoist


Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 2,232
Loc: Donkey Kong Kill Screen
Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: hamandcheese]
    #9185940 - 11/04/08 10:34 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hamandcheese said:
are you implying using just the popular vote?




I think that's an excellent idea, along with single transferable vote.  What would that require anyway?  A constitutional amendment, I assume?

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InvisibleFeeling_of_Sound
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Registered: 11/30/07
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: hamandcheese]
    #9185980 - 11/04/08 10:40 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hamandcheese said:
are you implying using just the popular vote?


That, or if we don't want too radical of a change, how bout making is so that the electoral votes can be split up instead of all of a state's votes being assigned to the majority leader. That way there's still a representative democracy but the will of the people is more specifically carried out based on a more personal survey of a smaller group of people.


--------------------
"Once expanded to the dimensions of a larger idea,
[the mind] never returns to its original size."

  -Oliver Wendell Holmes


"Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." - Ralph Waldo Emerson


[quote] underfliptown said:
Adaptation to a sick society is no measure of mental health. [/quote]

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: Feeling_of_Sound]
    #9186011 - 11/04/08 10:45 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Feeling_of_Sound said:
That, or if we don't want too radical of a change, how bout making is so that the electoral votes can be split up instead of all of a state's votes being assigned to the majority leader.




I support that wholeheartedly.  That is superior to the current system and to a popular vote.

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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: Feeling_of_Sound]
    #9186020 - 11/04/08 10:46 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

a popular vote would be horrible. sound good, who ever most people vote for should be the winner. but that means the residents of a state like rhode island vote means nothing. therefore they go unrepresented, and rural votes dont mean shit either. candidates need only cater to large states and big cities.

the idea of letting state split votes is much better and more likely, nebraska and maine already do that.


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OfflinePsuper
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: hamandcheese]
    #9186034 - 11/04/08 10:48 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

How would reform or abolishment of the electoral college go about? I am interested in getting involved in the fight against the EC. Anyone have any info on this for a young activist???  ~Pixie~


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Clinical Management of High Dose Psilocybin Sessions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbHOTIqjZLk

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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: Feeling_of_Sound]
    #9186052 - 11/04/08 10:51 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I think the electoral college was a great idea. If it were not in place, most elections would be decided by the coastal states. I imagine land owner rights would basically die as would anything else that doesn't matter to coastal citizens. It would make campaigning a lot easier, though. Candidates could spend all their time in Florida, New York, Pennsylvania, California, and Texas. In just those states, you can talk to 110,000,000 Americans.


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr

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InvisibleFeeling_of_Sound
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Registered: 11/30/07
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: hamandcheese]
    #9186060 - 11/04/08 10:51 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Edit: never mind


--------------------
"Once expanded to the dimensions of a larger idea,
[the mind] never returns to its original size."

  -Oliver Wendell Holmes


"Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." - Ralph Waldo Emerson


[quote] underfliptown said:
Adaptation to a sick society is no measure of mental health. [/quote]

Edited by Feeling_of_Sound (11/04/08 10:55 PM)

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OfflineMrBump
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: hamandcheese]
    #9186076 - 11/04/08 10:54 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hamandcheese said:
a popular vote would be horrible. sound good, who ever most people vote for should be the winner. but that means the residents of a state like rhode island vote means nothing. therefore they go unrepresented, and rural votes dont mean shit either. candidates need only cater to large states and big cities.

the idea of letting state split votes is much better and more likely, nebraska and maine already do that.




a conservative friend of mine thinks taking away the electoral college would have a downside. all the people who commit voter fraud by voting several times would actually have more of an impact on the outcome. If they vote several times in a small state at least there's only a small percentage of electoral votes that would be corrupted.


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If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all.

There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn.

Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?

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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: Feeling_of_Sound]
    #9186101 - 11/04/08 10:58 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

it doesnt matter where youd want to put the votes, it matters where the votes come from.  like automan said ALL of the campaigning would be in your big states, and cities.

think about why we have both a senate and the house and how the number of members of each are determined.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: automan]
    #9186615 - 11/05/08 12:31 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

automan said:
I think the electoral college was a great idea. If it were not in place, most elections would be decided by the coastal states.



But that's because that's where most of the people are. If most people live in cities, shouldn't they get most of the vote? Surely the power of each vote should be the same for each person, and the only way to do that is with a popular vote. I don't see why rural people should get a disproportionally bigger say in the election.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Offlinewildchild68
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: hamandcheese]
    #9186791 - 11/05/08 12:59 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hamandcheese said:
a popular vote would be horrible. sound good, who ever most people vote for should be the winner. but that means the residents of a state like rhode island vote means nothing. therefore they go unrepresented, and rural votes dont mean shit either. candidates need only cater to large states and big cities.






That's only looking at it from the state perspective though.

A person's vote would would be assigned the same importance no matter what state they live in.

I think both of these proposed systems would be better than the one we have now.


--------------------

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: Feeling_of_Sound]
    #9188197 - 11/05/08 10:41 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Feeling_of_Sound said:
It was put into effect back in the day because the founding fathers believed the citizens of this country were too ill-informed/stupid to make an educated decision. 



For the sake of argument, assuming that is the reason, last nights results prove it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: wildchild68]
    #9188310 - 11/05/08 11:03 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

wildchild68 said:
Quote:

hamandcheese said:
a popular vote would be horrible. sound good, who ever most people vote for should be the winner. but that means the residents of a state like rhode island vote means nothing. therefore they go unrepresented, and rural votes dont mean shit either. candidates need only cater to large states and big cities.






That's only looking at it from the state perspective though.

A person's vote would would be assigned the same importance no matter what state they live in.

I think both of these proposed systems would be better than the one we have now.




what perspective are you looking at it?

the problem is the votes dont have the same importance. not now, but it would be far worse under popular election.

if i live in a rural area how likely is that the candidates will try to get my vote? very slim. why because they don't need it. they could win by just focusing on urban areas. what the urban areas want, their needs, their agendas, their concerns. my rural voice goes unheard. now im left to do something on my own some how. my only real choice to do something is move to the city, where the candidates might listen to me. the country becomes solely urban based. people flood the cities, their systems get overwhelmed , we all suffer. maybe you dont see this, but then consider the states that would run the country. california texas florida newyork etc why do these states deserve the sole right to set the agenda?

im sorry but your being really narrow if this is what you want. sure the system isnt perfect but why implement a more flawed system because you don't like the one in place? it seems counter productive. especially when there are more viable reform paths. look up how its run in maine and nebraska and let me know how you feel about those systems.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: hamandcheese]
    #9188380 - 11/05/08 11:18 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Ding Ding Ding!

Give the man a sandwich.

Good to see someone gets it. To bad many others aren't as smart.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: Feeling_of_Sound]
    #9188391 - 11/05/08 11:19 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)


It was put into effect back in the day because the founding fathers believed the citizens of this country were too ill-informed/stupid to make an educated decision.


Gee they really saw what was going on didn't they.

Now tell me again how things have changed?:grin:

I do agree that the electoral college is stoopid.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: Feeling_of_Sound]
    #9188635 - 11/05/08 12:05 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

The electoral college does not exist out of some vision of the electorate as stupid.  It exists, as does the Senate, as a sop to get the smaller states, which feared being swamped into irrelevance by the Virginias and Massachusetts', to sign on to the Constitution.  Without it there would be no United States.  Get over it.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9188676 - 11/05/08 12:15 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

All one united country right Zap? One man one vote and all that. Majority wins! This is how I was taught to play fair in school.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: Icelander]
    #9188777 - 11/05/08 12:29 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

What are you talking about?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9188874 - 11/05/08 12:48 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

That the majority should rule in democracy. That we are supposed to be all one tribe. What else? Ya know, if you don't love it you can leave it. Isn't that what they say?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: Icelander]
    #9188921 - 11/05/08 12:56 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Oi.  I give a history lesson and you give nonsense.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9188954 - 11/05/08 01:04 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

So all this "One nation under God" was a lie.:whoa: Shit Zapp, I learned this in school.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleMistaUNGA
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: Feeling_of_Sound]
    #9188956 - 11/05/08 01:05 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Feeling_of_Sound said:
I think we should count the actual individual votes and decide that way. forget representational democracy, how bout true democracy.




good thing this isn't a democracy. tell me, if it were a true democracy, how would the legislature, judicial and executive branches operate? you can't physically put everybody 2gether to vote. it's not logistically possible. that is why we have a republican form of government.

mob rule does not work. it always turns into chaos, and ends splitting into factions. it is exactly this reason why we have a republic. people are not one homogeneous entity. people have very different views, and all should be listened to, instead of only the majority opinion.

ever wondered why our Justices in the Supreme court write minority dissent reports?

even if we had a popular only vote for pres, THE PRESIDENT IS SUPPOSED TO REPRESENT YOU!! that is REPRESENTATIONAL!!

it kinda irked me last night when obama said that we weren't a nation made up of individuals, but rather one people. that simply isn't true. one population, yes. but i am an individual, and i disagree entirely with him.


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:gc:
Madtowntripper said:Or just give her a cloroform soaked rag and tell her it's ether!

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: Icelander]
    #9189116 - 11/05/08 01:35 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
So all this "One nation under God" was a lie.:whoa: Shit Zapp, I learned this in school.




I think the Constitution predates the Pledge of Allegiance, especially as modified in the 1950s to include that "under god" shit.  I'm sorry about your schooling.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9189159 - 11/05/08 01:42 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I'm sorry about your schooling.

It's ok, that's middle America for you. I've forgotten most of it anyway. Still got that damn pledge stuck in my mind though.:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: Icelander]
    #9189429 - 11/05/08 02:37 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
That the majority should rule in democracy.




It's tough to take you seriously when you haven't learned that we are not a Democracy. Never were. Was never intended to be.

From the document you so obviously are unable to read:
And to the Republic for which it stands.....

If you can't grasp something so simple and so oft repeated, you don't belong here.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinezouden
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #9189443 - 11/05/08 02:41 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

A Republic can also be a democracy. America is a democracy because its leaders are voted in by the people.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: zouden]
    #9189475 - 11/05/08 02:47 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
A Republic can also be a democracy. America is a democracy because its leaders are voted in by the people.




:lol:

Get a clue.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinezouden
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #9189532 - 11/05/08 02:57 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Great comeback. :rolleyes:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #9189552 - 11/05/08 03:01 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
That the majority should rule in democracy.




It's tough to take you seriously when you haven't learned that we are not a Democracy. Never were. Was never intended to be.

From the document you so obviously are unable to read:
And to the Republic for which it stands.....

If you can't grasp something so simple and so oft repeated, you don't belong here.




I base my statements on this article. http://www.williampmeyers.org/republic.html


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezouden
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: Icelander]
    #9189565 - 11/05/08 03:04 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Beginning with the Constitution's adoption, America has been a Republic. But the dominant trend over the last two centuries has been to make it into a democracy as well, a representative democracy, also know as a democratic republic.




--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: zouden]
    #9189576 - 11/05/08 03:06 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

It was all that was needed.

I suppose I could have told you to buy a dictionary, or read the numerous quotes from those who wrote the Constitution, but if you don't already know the difference it seems pointless.

It's a shame you don't know the difference.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: Icelander]
    #9189587 - 11/05/08 03:08 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

You can base your statement of something you read on a box of Cheerios for all I care.

It's still wrong.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #9189598 - 11/05/08 03:09 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
You can base your statement of something you read on a box of Cheerios for all I care.

It's still wrong.




And I'm supposed to believe you why?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: hamandcheese]
    #9189610 - 11/05/08 03:11 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hamandcheese said:
Quote:

wildchild68 said:
Quote:

hamandcheese said:
a popular vote would be horrible. sound good, who ever most people vote for should be the winner. but that means the residents of a state like rhode island vote means nothing. therefore they go unrepresented, and rural votes dont mean shit either. candidates need only cater to large states and big cities.






That's only looking at it from the state perspective though.

A person's vote would would be assigned the same importance no matter what state they live in.

I think both of these proposed systems would be better than the one we have now.




what perspective are you looking at it?

the problem is the votes dont have the same importance. not now, but it would be far worse under popular election.

if i live in a rural area how likely is that the candidates will try to get my vote? very slim. why because they don't need it. they could win by just focusing on urban areas. what the urban areas want, their needs, their agendas, their concerns. my rural voice goes unheard. now im left to do something on my own some how. my only real choice to do something is move to the city, where the candidates might listen to me. the country becomes solely urban based. people flood the cities, their systems get overwhelmed , we all suffer. maybe you dont see this, but then consider the states that would run the country. california texas florida newyork etc why do these states deserve the sole right to set the agenda?

im sorry but your being really narrow if this is what you want. sure the system isnt perfect but why implement a more flawed system because you don't like the one in place? it seems counter productive. especially when there are more viable reform paths. look up how its run in maine and nebraska and let me know how you feel about those systems.




Your point has some merit, but I think your overstating it. There are a ton of rural areas right now where the candidates never visit. They only tend to concentrate on swing states. So:shrug:

Oh, and how about not calling me narrow when I agreed the system your in favor of would make far more sense than the one now. But I also happen to think a popular vote would be far better than what we have now.


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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #9189617 - 11/05/08 03:11 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I think you've lost this argument, luvdemshrooms.

Back to the electoral college: the thing that really blows my mind is the way that they are grouped by state, to the point at which the dissenting college votes are essentially deleted. If 40% of the ECs in Texas go blue and 60% go red, all of them become red. It's like 40% of the vote just disappears.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: Icelander]
    #9189620 - 11/05/08 03:12 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Read. There are a couple hundred years of writings on the subject. None more apt than those who came up with the system. If you don't wish to believe me, believe them.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: zouden]
    #9189626 - 11/05/08 03:13 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Not much of a thinker then.

You may wish it to be a democracy. I may wish to win the Powerball.

My wish has a better chance of coming true.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #9189633 - 11/05/08 03:15 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I did read. But you didn't like what it said, that is if you read it and could comprehend it which I doubt. So why the fuck should I agree with what you read?

So if you'd like to address what was said in the article maybe I could take you seriously.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinezouden
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #9189687 - 11/05/08 03:27 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Read. There are a couple hundred years of writings on the subject. None more apt than those who came up with the system.




Why? Surely a more apt description of the system would be from a modern point of view, after two hundred years of observing how the system actually works, rather than how they wanted the system to work. Did you even read the article that Icelander posted? Or the bit that I quoted? The one about how the system has evolved into a representative democracy since it was founded?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: wildchild68]
    #9190322 - 11/05/08 05:15 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

wildchild68 said:
Quote:

hamandcheese said:
Quote:

wildchild68 said:
Quote:

hamandcheese said:
a popular vote would be horrible. sound good, who ever most people vote for should be the winner. but that means the residents of a state like rhode island vote means nothing. therefore they go unrepresented, and rural votes dont mean shit either. candidates need only cater to large states and big cities.






That's only looking at it from the state perspective though.

A person's vote would would be assigned the same importance no matter what state they live in.

I think both of these proposed systems would be better than the one we have now.




what perspective are you looking at it?

the problem is the votes dont have the same importance. not now, but it would be far worse under popular election.

if i live in a rural area how likely is that the candidates will try to get my vote? very slim. why because they don't need it. they could win by just focusing on urban areas. what the urban areas want, their needs, their agendas, their concerns. my rural voice goes unheard. now im left to do something on my own some how. my only real choice to do something is move to the city, where the candidates might listen to me. the country becomes solely urban based. people flood the cities, their systems get overwhelmed , we all suffer. maybe you dont see this, but then consider the states that would run the country. california texas florida newyork etc why do these states deserve the sole right to set the agenda?

im sorry but your being really narrow if this is what you want. sure the system isnt perfect but why implement a more flawed system because you don't like the one in place? it seems counter productive. especially when there are more viable reform paths. look up how its run in maine and nebraska and let me know how you feel about those systems.




Your point has some merit, but I think your overstating it. There are a ton of rural areas right now where the candidates never visit. They only tend to concentrate on swing states. So:shrug:

Oh, and how about not calling me narrow when I agreed the system your in favor of would make far more sense than the one now. But I also happen to think a popular vote would be far better than what we have now.





its not really about whether they visit them or not its more about needing their vote. seeing as they are rural areas it makes it very difficult. but if a canidate decides that he wants to cut  into the rural areas to expand the cities, those people wolnt be happy. but under a PV system they potentially have very little say.  and it seems obama ran a pretty good "50 state campaign"  since when is Iowa a swing state?

im sorry but your being really narrow if(an Popular vote election system) is what you want.

wasn't specifically directed at you, but more anyone who truly believes we should more to a PV system.


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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #9190420 - 11/05/08 05:32 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
That the majority should rule in democracy.




It's tough to take you seriously when you haven't learned that we are not a Democracy. Never were. Was never intended to be.

From the document you so obviously are unable to read:
And to the Republic for which it stands.....

If you can't grasp something so simple and so oft repeated, you don't belong here.





good lord.


Do we have to start this bullshit again?


Yes we all know what a democracy and a republic is, and we all know how the united states functions- get over it.


That someone may refer to our democratic institutions as democratic doesn't imply that they think we are the deifnition of a democracy and doesn't mean shit even if they did.


We all know what is being discussed.  This democracy vs republic prick waving has long since ceased being impressive.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: hamandcheese]
    #9191285 - 11/05/08 08:14 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

But as it currently stands, the rural people in California get very little representation. Or rural New York. Or any place where the state is carried by the cities. I don't have a problem with the electoral college per se, it's the arbitrary grouping by state that I think is unfair.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Offlinewildchild68
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: hamandcheese]
    #9192341 - 11/05/08 11:10 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Guess I'm narrow.:shrug:


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Offlinepfshroomer
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #9192582 - 11/05/08 11:48 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

*deleted*


--------------------
"Follow the medicine path with an open mind and a clear heart, and you will surely find inner peace and enlightenment."

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