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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#9189598 - 11/05/08 03:09 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said: You can base your statement of something you read on a box of Cheerios for all I care.
It's still wrong.
And I'm supposed to believe you why?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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wildchild68
lion in a coma
Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 5,115
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: hamandcheese]
#9189610 - 11/05/08 03:11 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
hamandcheese said:
Quote:
wildchild68 said:
Quote:
hamandcheese said: a popular vote would be horrible. sound good, who ever most people vote for should be the winner. but that means the residents of a state like rhode island vote means nothing. therefore they go unrepresented, and rural votes dont mean shit either. candidates need only cater to large states and big cities.
That's only looking at it from the state perspective though. A person's vote would would be assigned the same importance no matter what state they live in.
I think both of these proposed systems would be better than the one we have now.
what perspective are you looking at it?
the problem is the votes dont have the same importance. not now, but it would be far worse under popular election.
if i live in a rural area how likely is that the candidates will try to get my vote? very slim. why because they don't need it. they could win by just focusing on urban areas. what the urban areas want, their needs, their agendas, their concerns. my rural voice goes unheard. now im left to do something on my own some how. my only real choice to do something is move to the city, where the candidates might listen to me. the country becomes solely urban based. people flood the cities, their systems get overwhelmed , we all suffer. maybe you dont see this, but then consider the states that would run the country. california texas florida newyork etc why do these states deserve the sole right to set the agenda?
im sorry but your being really narrow if this is what you want. sure the system isnt perfect but why implement a more flawed system because you don't like the one in place? it seems counter productive. especially when there are more viable reform paths. look up how its run in maine and nebraska and let me know how you feel about those systems.
Your point has some merit, but I think your overstating it. There are a ton of rural areas right now where the candidates never visit. They only tend to concentrate on swing states. So
Oh, and how about not calling me narrow when I agreed the system your in favor of would make far more sense than the one now. But I also happen to think a popular vote would be far better than what we have now.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#9189617 - 11/05/08 03:11 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think you've lost this argument, luvdemshrooms.
Back to the electoral college: the thing that really blows my mind is the way that they are grouped by state, to the point at which the dissenting college votes are essentially deleted. If 40% of the ECs in Texas go blue and 60% go red, all of them become red. It's like 40% of the vote just disappears.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: Icelander]
#9189620 - 11/05/08 03:12 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Read. There are a couple hundred years of writings on the subject. None more apt than those who came up with the system. If you don't wish to believe me, believe them.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: zouden]
#9189626 - 11/05/08 03:13 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Not much of a thinker then.
You may wish it to be a democracy. I may wish to win the Powerball.
My wish has a better chance of coming true.
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#9189633 - 11/05/08 03:15 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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I did read. But you didn't like what it said, that is if you read it and could comprehend it which I doubt. So why the fuck should I agree with what you read?
So if you'd like to address what was said in the article maybe I could take you seriously.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#9189687 - 11/05/08 03:27 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said: Read. There are a couple hundred years of writings on the subject. None more apt than those who came up with the system.
Why? Surely a more apt description of the system would be from a modern point of view, after two hundred years of observing how the system actually works, rather than how they wanted the system to work. Did you even read the article that Icelander posted? Or the bit that I quoted? The one about how the system has evolved into a representative democracy since it was founded?
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 12,530
Loc: Next Level
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: wildchild68]
#9190322 - 11/05/08 05:15 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
wildchild68 said:
Quote:
hamandcheese said:
Quote:
wildchild68 said:
Quote:
hamandcheese said: a popular vote would be horrible. sound good, who ever most people vote for should be the winner. but that means the residents of a state like rhode island vote means nothing. therefore they go unrepresented, and rural votes dont mean shit either. candidates need only cater to large states and big cities.
That's only looking at it from the state perspective though. A person's vote would would be assigned the same importance no matter what state they live in.
I think both of these proposed systems would be better than the one we have now.
what perspective are you looking at it?
the problem is the votes dont have the same importance. not now, but it would be far worse under popular election.
if i live in a rural area how likely is that the candidates will try to get my vote? very slim. why because they don't need it. they could win by just focusing on urban areas. what the urban areas want, their needs, their agendas, their concerns. my rural voice goes unheard. now im left to do something on my own some how. my only real choice to do something is move to the city, where the candidates might listen to me. the country becomes solely urban based. people flood the cities, their systems get overwhelmed , we all suffer. maybe you dont see this, but then consider the states that would run the country. california texas florida newyork etc why do these states deserve the sole right to set the agenda?
im sorry but your being really narrow if this is what you want. sure the system isnt perfect but why implement a more flawed system because you don't like the one in place? it seems counter productive. especially when there are more viable reform paths. look up how its run in maine and nebraska and let me know how you feel about those systems.
Your point has some merit, but I think your overstating it. There are a ton of rural areas right now where the candidates never visit. They only tend to concentrate on swing states. So
Oh, and how about not calling me narrow when I agreed the system your in favor of would make far more sense than the one now. But I also happen to think a popular vote would be far better than what we have now.
its not really about whether they visit them or not its more about needing their vote. seeing as they are rural areas it makes it very difficult. but if a canidate decides that he wants to cut into the rural areas to expand the cities, those people wolnt be happy. but under a PV system they potentially have very little say. and it seems obama ran a pretty good "50 state campaign" since when is Iowa a swing state?
im sorry but your being really narrow if(an Popular vote election system) is what you want.
wasn't specifically directed at you, but more anyone who truly believes we should more to a PV system.
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#9190420 - 11/05/08 05:32 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:
Icelander said: That the majority should rule in democracy.
It's tough to take you seriously when you haven't learned that we are not a Democracy. Never were. Was never intended to be.
From the document you so obviously are unable to read: And to the Republic for which it stands.....
If you can't grasp something so simple and so oft repeated, you don't belong here.
good lord.
Do we have to start this bullshit again?
Yes we all know what a democracy and a republic is, and we all know how the united states functions- get over it.
That someone may refer to our democratic institutions as democratic doesn't imply that they think we are the deifnition of a democracy and doesn't mean shit even if they did.
We all know what is being discussed. This democracy vs republic prick waving has long since ceased being impressive.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: hamandcheese]
#9191285 - 11/05/08 08:14 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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But as it currently stands, the rural people in California get very little representation. Or rural New York. Or any place where the state is carried by the cities. I don't have a problem with the electoral college per se, it's the arbitrary grouping by state that I think is unfair.
-------------------- I know... that just the smallest part of the world belongs to me You know... I'm not a blind man but truth is the hardest thing to see
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wildchild68
lion in a coma
Registered: 11/19/07
Posts: 5,115
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: hamandcheese]
#9192341 - 11/05/08 11:10 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Guess I'm narrow.
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pfshroomer
MASTER OF MY DOMAIN
Registered: 10/19/03
Posts: 4,952
Loc: seeking the truth
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: abolish the electoral college. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#9192582 - 11/05/08 11:48 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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*deleted*
-------------------- "Follow the medicine path with an open mind and a clear heart, and you will surely find inner peace and enlightenment."
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