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rchtyp
Ethnoring Administrator
Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 363
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Datura
#9181628 - 11/04/08 09:00 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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How dangerous is it? Ive read more than a few stories about people who took it and are tripping forever. Oh, and cant forget the scientific study I read about mice brain damage and weight changes of brain sections on different doses.
This is my take on it right now: If you do too much you can cause brain damage in the part of your brain that keeps you "sane" (what is sane anyway, right? ).
I dont think Ill do it unless the positives outweigh the negatives, and right now they arent coming close .
For the people that have done it: Is it worth it? Why or why not?
- rch
-------------------- Creator of The Ethnoring
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Mastamike1118
Registered: 03/29/07
Posts: 2,010
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Re: Datura [Re: rchtyp]
#9181646 - 11/04/08 09:08 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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i dont no anyone who has taken it
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cpw1971
Mr
Registered: 10/07/06
Posts: 5,615
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Re: Datura [Re: rchtyp]
#9181660 - 11/04/08 09:13 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Theres a fine line between tripping and death with Datura. Every year I hear about some kids dying on it. Not good Not to mention its more of a delerium than tripping and you don't realize it.
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Brainiac
Rogue Scientist
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Re: Datura [Re: cpw1971]
#9181684 - 11/04/08 09:21 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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1. You can die 2. You will trip so hard live multiple lives, die in those multiple lives, then die in real life. 3.You, or no one else is a shaman. Quit foolin youself. 4.It's not a contest of dick size. (Breast size for you woman) 5.Tropanes...tro-pains..get it? 6.It was once an idea for chemical warfare. 7.It's one of mother nature's cruelest jokes. 8.An anangram of Datura: U A Tard 9.It can make you retarded. 10.If you use Datura, you are probably retarded. 11.You are not a voodoo priest.You can't make zombies. 12. It will make you a zombie. In jail 13. It's probably the drug responsible for giving other psychedlics a bad name. 14. See Erowid.org, then don't do it. 15. There's better drugs. 16. There's waaay better drugs. 17. People don't like to worry to much. 18. We are sick of Datura threads here, so don't do it. 19. You are not a witch, or a wiccan using magic. See Wikipedia. 20. This website provides you with resources to grow better shit than Datura. 21. It doesn't make you hardcore, because you were never hardcore to begin with. 22. Read other lists, don't do it. 23. Use the search engine, and relfect on the wisdom gained about Datura. 24. Datura is as bad as heroin. That's a rumour I might be willing to start. 25. The over all feeling I get on the shroomery is DON'T DO DATURA.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7167737#7167737
-------------------- Fair is Fair
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ethnoguy
"Raper of Mother Nature"
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I agree with Brainiac, but they are nice to grow.
EG
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rchtyp
Ethnoring Administrator
Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 363
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Thank you for the input so far everyone.
Brainiac: I don't consider myself a shaman, wizard, witch, wiccain, voodoo priest, pink hulabaloo, junkie, or god. Simply a man looking for a higher level of consciousness. I also believe that every substance is different, and each has their own new light.
My last two lines were the main point of this thread:
Quote:
For the people that have done it: Is it worth it? Why or why not?
I don't think that researching to find out if you want to try a potentially deadly substance makes you a retard, more like a safe idiot.
-------------------- Creator of The Ethnoring
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UncleMike
Visionary
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Re: Datura [Re: rchtyp]
#9181995 - 11/04/08 10:47 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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I took a handful of jimsonweed seeds one time and the experience is not one i like to remember. there were swirling patterns everywhere and I felt horrible. when i had to piss my whole body heated up. felt like i had eaten rat poisonor something and i thought that iwas going to die...i would not recommend anyone doing it
-------------------- Live each day like it will be your last, tomorrow my never come. SporeSmart
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arago
Mr. Wind Up Bird
Registered: 02/07/06
Posts: 828
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Go to Erowid and read the trip reports. They are fascinating and really funny in a sordid, macabre way. Most of the participants end up in the hospital, fighting against the restraints; most leaving the hospital with $30,000 bills. I've done it, and I ended up in the hospital. The trips go on for days. Sometimes people are found dead in ponds. A lot of people are arrested for doing weird shit - And the funniest line I can recall is when a friend visited his buddy, still tripping in the hospital and asked him how it was going, - said: "I really have to go to the bathroom, but I can't. If I take my eye off that fairy over there, he'll push me off the building."
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ethnoguy
"Raper of Mother Nature"
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Re: Datura [Re: arago]
#9182965 - 11/04/08 02:25 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Carlos Castaneda's teacher and mentor Don Juan Matus called jimsonweed "the devil's weed". He hated it, and he was a shaman.
I like the story of the guy who ate some seeds, and decided to take a shower. He got naked, turned the water on, and then proceeded to go into the living room and start dusting furniture. When his mom asked him what he was doing, he replied "trying to take a shower!" There are lots of funny and sad stories on erowid.org regarding datura use.
Often participants don't even realize they are tripping. While datura is fascinating to study, it's a really bad idea to consume it unless you know wtf you are doing and will have a sitter for 2-3 days. And never consume any seeds that have been treated with GA-3.
EG
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Brainiac
Rogue Scientist
Registered: 04/29/06
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It grows wild around where I'm at.It looks like a mean plant...
-------------------- Fair is Fair
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger
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Re: Datura [Re: arago]
#9183026 - 11/04/08 02:42 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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it makes your muscles feel twitchy and restless (to the point of being painful) It makes you very dehydrated, water doesn't help. It throws your heart rate up to sometimes over 200bpm. It makes you feel like you have to piss REAL bad, but nothing comes out. It gives you severe vertigo. (side-effect of the dehydration) You can't focus your eyes for days. You can't remember things like your name, where you live, what a house is, how to put syllables in the right order or how many of each to use in a word. You cant hold a thought. You will remember practically nothing of the experience afterwards. Both near and distant memories will be narrowed down to the most basic and habitual of behaviors, like old friends and smoking. you'll be talking to old friends, and smoking imaginary cigarettes. as your current thinking will be replaced by simple-memory based hallucinations playing out like a vague dream. You will take it for granted as reality. then theres bugs and spiders. Some people see them everywhere.
you'll destroy things and cause messes wherever you go. tearing up furniture, pulling down drapes, emptying the contents of fridges and pantries into toilets, beds, fishtanks, toasters, shoes, whatever exists.
weather through a door or a window, you'll probably find your way out of your dwelling (releasing whatever pets you keep) and wander off in a random (usually downhill) direction, confusing woodland and roadway alike. The ground itself will seem holographic, and images of terrifying imaginings can appear in its abysmal depth that can turn you into a frightened maniac.
Balance and coordination can be lost even further, you can be reduced to crawling through a ditch.
people who encounter you will be extremely alarmed.
you'll end up strapped down to a gurney, with tubes in your throat and dick,
on the bright side, its all pretty trippy.
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger
Registered: 10/27/99
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oh yeah, you'll probably shit and piss yourself and be naked and bloodied through most of this.
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Brainiac
Rogue Scientist
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Sounds like fun....
-------------------- Fair is Fair
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ethnoguy
"Raper of Mother Nature"
Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 3,915
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It grows wild here too. More on the east side of the state, but I have seen it several times myself in the wild. I have some seeds from a datura cv. Its a dwarf plant. I can't wait to put that in the yard.
Way to put things in perspective Mitch
EG
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scruffymafia
Dreamer
Registered: 05/30/07
Posts: 2,234
Loc: Wonderland
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Re: Datura *DELETED* [Re: ethnoguy]
#9183254 - 11/04/08 03:42 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Post deleted by scruffymafia
Reason for deletion: .
-------------------- This is the strangest life I've ever known.
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Brainiac
Rogue Scientist
Registered: 04/29/06
Posts: 13,259
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Its kind of odd. We get alot of food from that family of plants...
-------------------- Fair is Fair
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ethnoguy
"Raper of Mother Nature"
Registered: 10/03/07
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Loc: your momma's house
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Plants of the Gods says its one of the most highly evolved plants. Why is that?
EG
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Prof. Astro
acirebma
Registered: 04/15/08
Posts: 4,084
Last seen: 4 months, 25 days
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I've taken datura and DPH (chemical equivalent), let me say I don't recommend it at all. Spending the night talking to people who are not there is a bit odd. In any case I do on occasion think about using it, but that's just for personal reference and in very, very low dosages.
--------------------
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jds
Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 3,083
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I did DPH a lot of times, but not datura (yet?). I don't know about others but I "enjoy" a little delirium once in a while (ie: 600-700mg of DPH was perfect for me). Not my favorite drug but not the worse. I don't recommended it to other people, since I'm probably the only one who can enjoy this drug .
-------------------- “No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten.” ― Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
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rchtyp
Ethnoring Administrator
Registered: 10/03/08
Posts: 363
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Glad I got to hear everyone's opinions, looks like I won't be using it. I have a bunch of psychoactive seeds ready to plant in my garden when it gets warmer, 3 different datura strains. .
Thanks again for the input.
- rch
-------------------- Creator of The Ethnoring
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cpw1971
Mr
Registered: 10/07/06
Posts: 5,615
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Re: Datura [Re: rchtyp]
#9184450 - 11/04/08 07:14 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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yeah I grow it every year for it's beauty.
one thing that wasn't mentioned yet... Datura Stramonium leaves mixes well with MJ in joints. Its not active when smoked but it makes your weed last longer and doesn't make it taste bad. In some countries they do this as a norm. Some people will say its active when smoked but I have made extracts and felt nothing from it. I have smoked extracts of the seeds, I smoked a lot of leaves and flowers and notta. Not even placebo.
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jds
Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 3,083
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Re: Datura [Re: cpw1971]
#9184707 - 11/04/08 07:48 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Apparently, a low dose of datura can give you a cool high (by eating it, not smoking it :p), but I wouldn't really risk it.
-------------------- “No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten.” ― Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
Edited by jds (11/04/08 07:49 PM)
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger
Registered: 10/27/99
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Re: Datura [Re: cpw1971]
#9184710 - 11/04/08 07:48 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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one thing about datura is that people who do it alone or without a competent sitter end up in trouble.
A couple years ago a kid here was with some friends and did it, He was supposed to catch a plane to japan as an exchange student the following day. His friends goaded him around town and dared him to jump in the local river. (tho this isn't the official story, i got it from someone involved) That fellow was found tangled up in some weeds about a week later in the lake downstream. another fellow with them spent several days in the hospital in a coma. It made quite a media stir locally and some high school students started a coalition for the banning of the plant altogether.
Similar events happen every few years. people don't learn.
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Brainiac
Rogue Scientist
Registered: 04/29/06
Posts: 13,259
Loc: 與您的女朋
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-------------------- Fair is Fair
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SheerTerror
ST
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Re: Datura [Re: rchtyp]
#9547560 - 01/04/09 10:02 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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I tried taking 50 seeds and didn't like it. i wouldin't fuck around with it because ya don't know your tripping. Benadryl is like it but you can at least dose yourself better with that.
Endless Trip
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jds
Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 3,083
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Yeah, deliriants are pretty f**d up drugs, I did high doses of benadryl around 10 times and I can say it's anything but fun or recreational. I don't recommend it at all.
-------------------- “No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten.” ― Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
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Clear Chamelon
a perception in deception
Registered: 12/28/08
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Re: Datura [Re: rchtyp]
#9550603 - 01/05/09 11:28 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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well theres always a oddball opinion. ive experimented with this especially when i found out that the indians native to where i lived used to do it for rituals of introducing boys into manhood with a blank state of mind. and thats how my trip was. it all started with a walk to a local empty lot with lots of trees n just "nature" ya know? jus to smoke some herb.. here bums/hobos/misfits whatever you wanna call em hang out n make their camps, well one day one of them told me about this plant that if you ate the seeds would make you talk to ghost... this caught my attention he took me to the area where they grew, got a good amount of em and well it was just a matter of time before i tried em out, ive done two to three experiments first one would be the best, i was real delirious i would trip visually briefly and snap back into "normal reality" quite often or so it seemed, being outdoors was the only thing that peace made me feel real euphoric overall a pleasant experience, until the next day where you get that fish eye vision where you cant focus on things upclose. the other trips i just took the dose down n made it to that euphoric/ecstasy state of mind with real "loose/random trains of thouhts" that make sense only while trippin such as when i was on a morning glory trip i said "i have not lost my mind i have just found it" kinda like stuff like that...so thats just my perception to make the datura plant seem not so bad. as a matter of fact i still have plenty of seeds ive saved from that one day.... hmmmmm
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 17,451
Loc: Raccoon City
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I have yet to hear a horror story which began with a small dose of a known substance.
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capsaicin
Spicy meatball
Registered: 10/25/08
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Don't do it. Tropane alkaloids are nothing to mess around with casually. If you are looking to trip I'd just get some mushrooms.
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jds
Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 3,083
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Did I mention that native americans used to take Datura to "visit Hell" ?
-------------------- “No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten.” ― Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
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mutant
Cynic
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Re: Datura [Re: jds]
#9553255 - 01/05/09 07:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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The reason why datura and related plants are dangerous is that people are idiots. Well, they are indeed very poisonous, so what did you expect?
Most people don't have what it takes to experiment with this family of plants, so like it was already said, stay away.
This having been said, apart from them being valuable medicines known and used from ancient times, they can be used and actually be pleasant, notably in sombination with alcohol, but not by mouthfuls of seeds but some dried leaves smoked plain or in combination with the no-no. Hyoscyamus leaf is very pleasant to smoke along with tobacco
So, please know that the reason these plants are not used widely by non experts is that not many people are sane and sensible enough to use them.
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tripp23
Kratom Freak
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Re: Datura [Re: mutant]
#9554314 - 01/05/09 09:46 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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dude.. just the stories and trip reports on erowid keep me up at night thinking so much shit. im not even kidding at all.. those stories litterally scare the shit outta me. i cant even read em i get so creeped out. i try to and i end up just doing something else. idk what it is about those stories, but there seriously fucking scary.. i guess it kinda makes me think that what if im really trippin just like in one of those stories n i dnt even know it.. eww fuckin creepy man..
-------------------- Experience my nightmarish first time of smoking Ganja!
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger
Registered: 10/27/99
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Re: Datura [Re: mutant]
#9554370 - 01/05/09 09:53 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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This opinion of mine, as follows, is going to rub some people the wrong way, but if you disagree with it, please support your argument with facts. If any indeed exist. My argument, has plenty of evidence to support it.
There is no safe-datura culture group and there never was, many shamans were dangerous, sketchy folk, revered by superstitious people.
Shamans would die from accidental overdose or uncoordinated discourse in dangerous terrain. Just like anyone. And their visions would move people to sacrifice children, start wars, etc. Believing they were any greater than us in drug-savvyness with their superstitious divination would be very simple-minded.
Shamans used these chemicals having no understanding of the chemical relations to the human system. For them, it was guts and sacrifice, it was their JOB to get fucked up as a medium to the spirit world.
Being a shaman was dangerous, no matter what people with romanticized versions of them believe or say. They became experienced and cautious from numerous mistakes, just like any human who thinks himself wise.
To be a successful shaman, one needed charisma, salesmanship, lore, a strong constitution, and backing. He needed to be able to talk his way out of the mistakes that didn't kill him.
You could live quite comfortably as long as you could convince the superstitious masses that your drug use was serving them.
The idea that people took datura "safely" just because they took it since before written history is totally unwarranted.
seriously, where are people getting their convictions? I'm hearing people say datura was consumed safely in rituals all the time.
It makes no sense, and is totally unprovable.
These cultures engaged in life-threatening endeavors all the time and some even intentionally killed themselves in ritual, why should anyone assume datura ritual was ever safe? Because someone wrote it somewhere?
Imagine if %10 of young men died in a hypothetical trial of tropane intoxication as a coming-of-age rite. Would a pre-bronze age tribe of those who survived the transition STOP the ritual? They still platform dive (often dying) as a rite of passage in Africa, and drug themselves with frog toxins (sometimes dying) in the amazon.
I think the ritual would continue with even greater mystique if it also killed a few of its participants.
Why? seriously, think datura was ever used safely? PARTICULARLY if you're using shamanism as a primary reference?
People argue that regular folk shouldn't be messing around with it because they aren't shamans. Well, shamans aren't really what people think shamans are either. Just the same way people don't think of themselves as dangerously misinformed until they experience disaster at their own hands, So to shall we hold shamans in glamor, That is how they became idols of cultures, like any idolatry, they reflected the vanity of the masses. I suspect that modern-day practitioners earnestly follow the romanticized metamorphosis of the shaman figure. But, still, do so in the same vanity.
For every talented (or lucky) shaman, there was 10 more charlatans and goofballs riding his mystique on a coat-tail of theatrics and pious fervor. They can do this because of shamanism. This is why, shamanism can never be considered truly safe. There's no standard, no real governing authority.
Even in a scientific nation such as china, they still believe powdered rhino horn gives them sexual powers. Wheres the logic? Harmful, criminal, useless, but humans do it with ZEAL.
We should always hold human ideas with staunch skepticism. I could revere a shaman, ONLY if he also proved to be a skeptic.
Some people think they're shamans. but, then, alot of people think they are vampires too, and they go on and on about sucking peoples vital energy and growing up "different" people are crazy. Shamans are among that group.
The point is, there's no such thing as safe datura consumption. Just none, It's not safe, there's ALWAYS a risk. And a shaman doesn't change that, It just adds a spiritual establishment to the mix.
It's unpredictable in effect, intensity, potency, and duration. There is no way to to gauge a dose beyond luck. If you were successful with it, you were lucky. Ive seen someone eat 300 seeds and nothing, I've seen another guy eat 20 from the same bag and his house was invaded by several imaginary apparitions that he totally believed were real. the parameters are WILD. imagine if the 300 guys seeds were like that of the 20 guy. experience in dosing is useless.
one more time
there is ALWAYS a risk.
Ask MoeHoward the popular, successful shroomerite who spent weeks in a coma.
RISKY stuff. like playing with fire. I'll say something shaman-like, It will get you in ways you never dreamed. It will seek your weakness and exploit it, and punish you. Beware.
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JohnAdams
Born Green Thumb
Registered: 07/13/08
Posts: 427
Loc: Anywhere but here
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Did you know they use the active chemical from Datura to make antidotes for Nerve Gas?
-------------------- Solar System Necklace and MESCALINE NECKLACE Click here if you want one!
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Clear Chamelon
a perception in deception
Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 60
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
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id like to respond to michnast, and to start off its just an opinion like you stated, AND any one of us can have an opinion leading to a statement that has some proof or evidence to support by. i agree with you to a certain extent. im no shaman, or nothing so im not going to say what a makes a shaman or who they come to be or anything like that, its kinda irrelevant to the datura topic its self in a sense. (at least to me i guess) "Why? seriously, think datura was ever used safely? PARTICULARLY if you're using shamanism as a primary reference?" to begin i think "safe" is a matter of perception. ive done datura seeds and tea and i think ive used it "safely" several times, but then again we all know that seeds potency varies from seed to seed ,pod to pod, plant to plant.i have had a more than enough amount seeds from the same plant i found, and i did trial with the numbers of seeds ingested and or brewed so i just found my amount that does me justice and sometimes i get around the same intensity and some times i dont, buts its all at a controllable level you know? but im just saying if ive been able to do this which shamans found out about which lead to religious/spirituals rituals for the rest of the tribes, and many people now and then did it with that intent successfully it would be kind of safe righ?t(doesnt mean completely, just like any other "drug" that puts you in a different state of mind ) plus if you make those life threatening endeavors such as a datura experience or base jumping wouldnt it make it more of a rewarding and like a feeling of worthiness type experience ? not to mention life changing but how you said theres always a risk especially if you manage to dose properly datura is a different experience with your mind so like with anything you use to alter your mind allready is not safe in its self generally speaking , but i all im just saying is i think you can use it and should use it safely... SI SE PUEDE! ahahaha.
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger
Registered: 10/27/99
Posts: 8,656
Loc: Okanagan
Last seen: 15 days, 7 hours
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I agree, But there's always risk, and where there's risk, there's never "safety" just a greater requirement for caution. The problem with datura is the biggest "risk" involved is that you can't know the level of caution required. Being frequently overcautious and underwhelmed leads to risky incremental advances. The substance, however, does not stay true to its familiar effects.
Quote:
"i did trial with the numbers of seeds ingested and or brewed so i just found my amount that does me justice and sometimes i get around the same intensity and some times i don't, buts its all at a controllable level you know?"
Datura is that drug where your familiarity and sense of savvy actually puts you at risk. It is a treacherous ally, as with any traitor, it is your faith in it that makes it dangerous to you, By itself, it is harmless. To be safe you have to distrust it entirely. Even keep your allegiance secret from your friends, lest they, trusting you, come to the mistake of trusting your treacherous ally. Peers do that sort of thing you know, I speak from experience, One day my best friend called me up trying to piece together the past few days. He wanted to try this ally I had discovered but determined was too dangerous. He didn't ask my advice. He was lucky. But if he had died, I would have lost my best friend, and all our mutual friends as he wouldn't be around to explain that I wasn't the one who killed him.
However the fact that he lived and had a zany tale lead to alot of experimentation around the community, totally outside of my range of influence, yet entirely held as scrutiny towards me.
Datura is treacherous because humans are too trusting and get too comfortable.
I think i once coined the phrase. "symbolic dosage" that's where you don't actually TAKE the drug, you just use it as a ritual item or undergo spiritual practices in its presence, not under it's influence.
Sort of like what people have come to do with mandrake root. They preserve, anoint, and care for it as a child. When consumed, it is just as dangerous as datura. They even believe harvesting the root is deadly. The act of pulling up a mandrake is often involving ritual animal sacrifice to protect the harvester from the wrath of the demon within. These are the superstitions of lore that were borne by the likes of datura when humans came to know it.
Maybe shamans used it for centuries, but i think generally, for the most part, they stopped. the smart ones anyway.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 17,451
Loc: Raccoon City
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Quote:
Why? seriously, think datura was ever used safely? PARTICULARLY if you're using shamanism as a primary reference?
How kind do you really suppose ancient cultures were, toward false prophets and incompetent healers?
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger
Registered: 10/27/99
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probably alot like how we deal with bad politicians. we all know Bush was bad, but what can you do?
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
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I'm talking about a time before the era of civil rights.
Would you sell false hope to a people, who used stone incorrigible children to death?
I think a shaman had to know what he was doing.
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Mitchnast
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faith healers, snake-oil salesmen, and televangelists know what they are doing too. Some of them probably come to believe in it.
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ethnoguy
"Raper of Mother Nature"
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Wow, I really think that the term shaman may be a bit broad. I think their are plenty of smart shaman out there today. To put them all in a basket is profiling IMO. Modern Toltec, is about as good as it gets. I really appreciate it and their understanding of the tonal and the nagual.
EG
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger
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I suppose we can be specific here and only be profiling datura-shamans. The hypothetical shamans used in rhetoric to support the "safe historical use" of datura so frequently mentioned in articles and advocations.
the point is, datura isn't safe, why should adding purveyors of bygone religions to the argument hold any weight, If anything it ought to discredit the argument.
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mutant
Cynic
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Mitchnast , even though I liked all you said about shamans etc etc, I am a sceptic as well, and I am glad to see people in the 'community' , like you, who seem to understand the huge gap between modern society and shamanic based one, and sure we have to qustion shaman's way, not only becuase we are children of the modern 'western' world, but also because idols are big trap....
but I don't really agree you cant use datura safely...
of course you can, people take dramamine all the time and its safe... you can smoke a joint with datura leaves and be relatively safe... thing is, that drug is not for most people...
people are hasty, in a hurry to get stoned, high, whatever... this drug is not for most .. it's dangerous, but SURE IT CAN BE USED SAFELY, only BY SOME!
and anyway, it won't be pleasant for most, so don't bother....
If you are sensible, then you know what to do...
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
Registered: 04/02/08
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Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: Datura [Re: mutant]
#9631611 - 01/18/09 12:08 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
The hypothetical shamans used in rhetoric to support the "safe historical use" of datura so frequently mentioned in articles and advocations.
To be clear, my opinions are based only on personal experience, although I have overheard that Castaneda was distrusted.
Knowing the full range of effects caused by the specie, I believe that carefully monitored, personal reactions to individual plants are predictable. I do not believe that one more seed, or one more, tiny leaf fragment, irretrievably destroyed anyone's mind or body.
Quote:
faith healers, snake-oil salesmen, and televangelists know what they are doing too. Some of them probably come to believe in it.
We're still talking about hypotheticals. If I predict a specific event to a savage, and it doesn't come true, then, I expect a savage reprisal.
If I was to offer a service to a doubter, I would have to produce tangible results, regardless of how I produced them.
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ethnoguy
"Raper of Mother Nature"
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Castenada was distrusted. It's also safe to say that some of his followers don't believe that Don Juan is a real person. They seem to think it is a composite of several characters. No one can agure that his books aren't important. That is why their are critics. If I can't find critics in whatever I may be doing, then it is atropied time IMO. Anything with meaning has a critic.
But those televangelist wear me out. Fucking cons preying on the desperate. That is low. Of course I'm only talking about the ones that drive fancy cars. Some of them seem modest. And of course they believe their own rhetoric. Thats what cons teach themselves to do.
EG
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meatspin
round right round
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god i hate televangelists. with a fiery passion.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
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Loc: Raccoon City
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The Bible explicitly prescribes corporal punishments for false prophets and makes evangelists (missionaries) sound poor.
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ethnoguy
"Raper of Mother Nature"
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False profits do have it coming to them, but I disagree that missionaries in the Bible are poor. Most of them possibly. Jesus wore a seamless robe. Those were very expensive back then. Anyway, the thread has been jacked. I'll shut up now before uare gets me .
EG
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Dr. uarewotueat
Peyote Farmer
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hehe well, i don't feel that getting off topic is anything to worry about if it is a natural progression of the discussion... so long as it is not designed to aggrevate anyone and any questions from the OP have been answered, it's fine by me
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
Registered: 04/02/08
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Quote:
Jesus wore a seamless robe. Those were very expensive back then.
So was oil of spikenard. Did Jesus demand the flattery, or did Jesus ask people what they thought?
Quote:
Anyway, the thread has been jacked.
I felt that it was on topic.
We're talking about people who come across as being wacked.
Are they mentally debilitated, or what?
Whether poor, or rich, or Christian, or demonized, or sober, or high on Datura, if a person successfully reveals hidden knowledge of a tangible event, I believe he is, in some degree, still functional.
I also agree with Michnast to the extent that I do not to believe people just because they act like authorities on certain subject.
Some of you guys put your life on the line, all on the good word of your literary heroes, who were just out to sell books.
I'm telling you there are ways for critical thinkers to challenge the status quo.
Around here, Datura, is not welcomed for discussion.
I'm wondering if people on either side are just reading from a book, or if they watch their opinion on TV.
If anyone really knows what they're talking about, what happened to who, after how much? In your own experience, what were contributing factors?
Thanks.
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Dr. uarewotueat
Peyote Farmer
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Quote:
Around here, Datura, is not welcomed for discussion.
it is as welcome as any other plant, however caution must be exercised as the plant is highly toxic. thedudenj has plenty of threads and posts on the topic, but if you search his posts take his advice with a pinch of salt
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
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Thanks for being inclusive, but I've noticed that Datura threads often wind up with curious people getting side tracked and berated.
I've taken the plant, many times, considerately, and have suffered no permanent, ill effects, of which I'm aware.
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger
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Quote:
durian_2008 said: Thanks for being inclusive, but I've noticed that Datura threads often wind up with curious people getting side tracked and berated.
I've taken the plant, many times, considerately, and have suffered no permanent, ill effects, of which I'm aware.
Curious people who do dangerous things often feel persecuted, how curious.... It's almost as though people are singling them out for their dangerous curiosities instead of getting to know them as people, leaving them no choice but to contrive unsubstantial claims of unprovable historical references and personal anecdotes (anomalous to the norm) as examples of practice to contradict the general consensus. It's just not fair! It's almost like humans are STUCK being this way, and we all just have to deal with it.
Step one of responsibility in exploring datura, you accept the fact that a lot of people with a reasonable understanding of the plant and its properties are going to think you are using poor judgment by consuming it or encouraging others to do so weather directly, or passively with positive, shining accounts that contradict the sea of train-wrecks. Said people are going to probably not improve their opinion on said personality trait because of the rationalizations of a curious persecutee.
For the most part, I think the quality you are noticing is a general opposition of anything that promotes datura as a "drug" when it ought to be squarely placed in the realm of "poisons"
It's a poison, It drives you mad and kills you, the "drug" that people want it to be is merely the practice of trying to take enough to go mad, but not enough to die. Every person has a different reaction, and every single iota of plant matter has a very different potency profile from the next. It's frankly roulette. You know, people who succeed with Russian roulette tend to report no lingering side effects as well. The ones who don't, don't contribute their opinion so much.
With datura, were lucky to have the accounts of those tho got the bang but not the bullet. And with all their accounts, we still have people citing tribal usage and anecdotal success as a counter argument. This should be discouraged as we all know that there's people who will only listen to the advise that supports them in satisfying their "curiosities"
When you GIVE advice, what you TAKE is responsibility.
If people take my advice, they will be safe.
If they take "I've taken the plant, many times, considerately, and have suffered no permanent, ill effects, of which I'm aware" Their safety is not guaranteed. And there will be nobody around to answer for it. I suppose that disassociation from the product of influences makes it easy to support practices that carry serious risks. Personally, I don't share in this sense of disassociation, or persecution. But I still get to be curious. win-win.
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Mitchnast
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Hmm, i guess i can abridge that to say i think responsible people should do and say whatever they can, within reason, as to not sabotage their own platform, to discourage the practice of consuming datura.
After that, people will still use it, they will still find their positive accounts to spur them onward. But some people will see reason, and thats the whole point.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
Registered: 04/02/08
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Loc: Raccoon City
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Quote:
I've taken the plant, many times, considerately, and have suffered no permanent, ill effects, of which I'm aware
Please take notice that I made this statement conditionally.
Don't trust one iota of text, which comes from this userid. Don't accept what popular authors glorify. Don't trust the doubters.
Instead, think for yourselves, about what makes the difference.
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ethnoguy
"Raper of Mother Nature"
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Quote:
durian_2008 said:
Quote:
Jesus wore a seamless robe. Those were very expensive back then.
So was oil of spikenard. Did Jesus demand the flattery, or did Jesus ask people what they thought?
Quote:
Anyway, the thread has been jacked.
I felt that it was on topic.
We're talking about people who come across as being wacked.
Are they mentally debilitated, or what?
Whether poor, or rich, or Christian, or demonized, or sober, or high on Datura, if a person successfully reveals hidden knowledge of a tangible event, I believe he is, in some degree, still functional.
I also agree with Michnast to the extent that I do not to believe people just because they act like authorities on certain subject.
Some of you guys put your life on the line, all on the good word of your literary heroes, who were just out to sell books.
I'm telling you there are ways for critical thinkers to challenge the status quo.
Jesus didn't write a book though . I'm not some crazy christian guy. I think every philosophy and major religion deserves some study. I enjoy looking it all over. But yeah there are tons of space monkeys out there. A shame really. But the people that study religion seem quick to dismiss the advances made in the different forms of physics .
EG
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger
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I felt bad that I might have been untactful I just want to apologize for any rude things might I direct at individuals that are tailored towards specific issues.
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ethnoguy
"Raper of Mother Nature"
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What Mitch? I don't see the need in any apologize to anyone. Maybe the Amish, but they aren't reading this anyway.
EG
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mutant
Cynic
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Well, I have decided that I am not in this world to care about the idiots. Well most of the time anyway.... We are crowded with idiots - we cannot take their approach of life as the standard.
And, I honestly don't care if people get poisoned by daturas or they can't undestand how to use amanita muscaria.
My research has to do with exploring some plants...
The Datura thing quite honestly takes off in the false opinion [which arises from the classic psychedelics users and irresponsible quotes 'if in doubt double the dose' from McKenna]
In my book, there's no rule that one has to take a lot, so as to have the 'real', 'full-blown' etc experience, not even with classic psychedelics. Everyone should be responsible enough to know himself enough so as to determine the dose and on which occasion it should be ingested.
So exploration of a plant doesn't mean discovering recreational potential or determining the maximum safe dose... To me it's about 'what can this plant do' , and in what use frame could we put it, if at all....
We needn't like and worship everything, jsut because it's got a shamanic hisotry behind. I have felt drawn to these plants and have grown them.... My fascination with them didn't end with my first experiment with smoking hyoscyamus leaf along with some wine, recently. Many of these plants have been used as inebriants as well as healing drugs in europe and my own country. Mandrake grows wild here too
I think these plants do have interesting potential, but I REPEAT, they are not for most people.
Edited by mutant (01/27/09 09:18 AM)
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
Registered: 04/02/08
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Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: Datura [Re: mutant]
#9681601 - 01/26/09 10:19 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Jesus didn't write a book though . I'm not some crazy christian guy. I think every philosophy and major religion deserves some study. I enjoy looking it all over.
In the Christian tradition, Jesus, himself, is the Word.
Quote:
But yeah there are tons of space monkeys out there. A shame really. But the people that study religion seem quick to dismiss the advances made in the different forms of physics .
As someone who studies religion and science, I believe that miraculous claims ought to be falsifiable.
As for space cases, you'd be risking your life to B.S. them with fakeouts. In undeveloped communities, public reprisal is physically dangerous.
Quote:
I think these plants do have interesting potential, but I REPEAT, they are not for most people.
I don't believe that plants cause bad-thinking, but I believe they can reveal bad thoughts. This is the discernment, which I believe most people lack.
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Chakravanti
Fire Shaman
Registered: 01/15/09
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Holy Shit. If anyone considers using belladonna...ignore everything posted here. No one here knows jack shit about this plant or how to properly use it.
Eating seeds? Smoking? Yeah, you'll get the worst effects of atropine. Atropine is a chemical, along with adrenaline all shot through a huge needle directly into the heart, that is used to counter the effects of nerve agents while you scrub down with charcoal and put on your hazmat gear.
If you haven't been hit with a nerve agent, then Atropine is not an anti-convulsion. It's a convulsion. Muscle spams, arythmic heart, and other such necessarily ridiculous death inducing symptoms.
It is not, however, transdermally effective. The skin acts as a filter if you come into contact with it. Scolopomine, the deleriant in Datura/belladonna is transdermally active. It can pass through skin pores.
Grind seeds, mix with butter, rub on skin.
If you're going to do it. THAT'S HOW. That's how to do it without assuredly killing yourself. It doesn't mean it's safe. There is nothing safe about becoming delirious four three days and losing all sense of reality.
Come to think of it....reality isn't safe either but if you'd like a nice shattering of that illusion DMT can suffice pretty well. But as with all psychedelics, you know you're tripping and that your hallucinations aren't real. With Delirium reality changes. You don't know you're hallucinating. Or so I hear. I'm interested in finding out I just haven't found a reasonable place to become delirious for three days without getting arrested, put into a psych ward or ER. Nor have I found someone willing to help me with that. One of these days I'll get some serious harm reduction going on and talk to some real fairies. Educate yourself and don't buy any prohibitionist's ignorance that grows from their fears. For fear grows into a vine and becomes the chains of oppression. The truth is out there. Later bitches.
EDIT: I take that back. There was a good piece of advice here. Benedryl. As a deliriant with significantly shorter duration one might 'practice' with this to experience delirium before going on the journey that is three days in length.
-------------------- This is a test. Just keep on going. Don't worry. We'll get it right. We've done this before.
Edited by Chakravanti (01/26/09 12:01 PM)
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 17,451
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Benedryl did send me to the hospital.
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mutant
Cynic
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"I don't believe that plants cause bad-thinking, but I believe they can reveal bad thoughts. This is the discernment, which I believe most people lack"
I don't think I quite follow you... You didn't define any discernment - I believe it's a degree of sensibility one must have in order to experiment safely with these plants. Not talking about ethics here, how could I, since tropane plants are widely regarded as an-ethical, devilish and such....
well maybe it's one of the reasons that drew me to them in the first place
PS: Chakravanti, is easily an example of idiot, and one with arrogance as well, the worst combo. First, there's no such thing as Scolopomine. It's scopolamine. Second, yeah Atropa is very atropine rich, so it's the least 'wanted' of tropane plants - so why the fuck use that , and third that transdermal use you suggest, is not only useless, because you don't mention which plant parts, how much, or anything at all, and also because it's extremely dangerous to dose yourselve like that. Or is it really cool because Castaneda writes about it?? :P
Like I said, because something got a shamanic touch to it, it doesn't mean shit.
Edited by mutant (01/27/09 09:42 AM)
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Chakravanti
Fire Shaman
Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 208
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Re: Datura [Re: mutant]
#9687987 - 01/27/09 11:04 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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LOL@Mutant - Your pathetic attempt to insult me while twisting everything I said is vain. Shoot me for a typo. Shoot me for not writing an essay with information that can be found by one doing his research AS EVERY PERSON SHOULD DO BEFORE USING ANY DRUG. Shoot me because I don't demonize something you don't understand. Witch Hunt indeed. Go fester your ignorance elsewhere.
-------------------- This is a test. Just keep on going. Don't worry. We'll get it right. We've done this before.
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Dr. uarewotueat
Peyote Farmer
Registered: 09/02/06
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i'll witch hunt the both of you if you don't keep this discussion civil.
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger
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Uh, oh, here comes the inquisition!
How can people use datura responsibly when they cant even talk about it rationally :P
You know, I'm of the stance of anti-advocate. That said, If someone needs a sitter, I'm eager to take on the role. They can expect however, That I will disseminate openly, how trying and disturbing an experience it was, with all the shit-stained details, to all.
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Chakravanti
Fire Shaman
Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 208
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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No offense but you would be my last choice for a siter. Nothing sours a trip faster than a sober person more paranoid than the tripper. Of course I don't use sitters. I don't recommend not using sitter but it works much better for me and there isn't anyone I trust that much that could serve well as a sitter. Of course, I've no real interest in deliriants at this time. I've been intrigued by them but it will be some time before I think I would be mentally/spiritually prepared for such an experience.
-------------------- This is a test. Just keep on going. Don't worry. We'll get it right. We've done this before.
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jds
Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 3,083
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I did deliriants a few times, they're "interesting" but it's not an enjoyable experience or anything euphoric. It's still amazing to see that your brain can create shadows for the hallucinations, and it all seems so real, and you definitely feel like some schizo guy.
(I don't recommend the use of deliriants to anyone, as some really bad things can happen on them if you don't use them responsably)
-------------------- “No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten.” ― Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 17,451
Loc: Raccoon City
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Re: Datura [Re: jds]
#9690334 - 01/27/09 06:10 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
yeah Atropa is very atropine rich, so it's the least 'wanted' of tropane plants - so why the fuck use that
Tradition.
BTW, traditionally, it was mixed with plants which moderated it's effects.
Quote:
that transdermal use you suggest, is not only useless, because you don't mention which plant parts, how much, or anything at all, and also because it's extremely dangerous to dose yourselve like that. Or is it really cool because Castaneda writes about it?? :P
Was that butter thing Castaneda's method?
Quote:
"I don't believe that plants cause bad-thinking, but I believe they can reveal bad thoughts. This is the discernment, which I believe most people lack"
Quote:
I don't think I quite follow you...
I believe that some of the "delirium" caused by the plant is actually suppressed thoughts surfacing.
This does not make the plant bad, in and of itself.
But, I believe that most people are incapable of categorizing thought, even when sober. Does the plant make you think bad things, are you receiving energy from another person/entity, which person or circumstance do you associate with certain thoughts, etc.
What if it had occurred to you to jump out of a tree? Many people wouldn't ask why.
I think this makes the difference between a death sentence and a diagnostic tool.
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Chakravanti
Fire Shaman
Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 208
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I've never read any Castanada. Cheap imitation of Manson except that he never got his bitches to murder anyone.
Quote:
I believe that some of the "delirium" caused by the plant is actually suppressed thoughts surfacing.
That's true of psychedelics as well. Except that lucidity is lost in a delirium.
-------------------- This is a test. Just keep on going. Don't worry. We'll get it right. We've done this before.
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger
Registered: 10/27/99
Posts: 8,656
Loc: Okanagan
Last seen: 15 days, 7 hours
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Quote:
Chakravanti said: Nothing sours a trip faster than a sober person more paranoid than the tripper.
explain how you've determined I am paranoid.
and explain how you determined that paranoia of present company would hold any bearing on the souring of a case of "delirium"
seems to me (who has lots of experience on the matter) that you have very little to no understanding of what is meant by delirium if you can even talk about trips going sour in reference to deliriants.
It's not the same thing as the highly sensitive state induced by actual psychedelics, You don't even have cognitive access to the "paranoia" of others. You should know that. I KNOW you know that, you're not totally uninformed. I appreciate that. BUT
Delirium means you can sit down and eat a shit sandwich with lizards and think it's skittles pie, from Bob Dylans spider factory. People walk through glass windows and crawl naked and bloodied down boulevards. You think they were just inherently stupid? Just looking for an excuse to act like a cretin? You think this is paranoia to consider these things? I've SEEN these things. They aren't the exception to the norm, Ive seen people (as in more than one) get in fights with the contents of their houses on doses that others have taken 5 times as much and only felt a dry mouth. Paranoia is an unreasonable inclination. My observations are reality.
A good friend of mine, very smart guy, ended up naked in a store basement with a fucked up spine from falling down the stairs, He dosed reasonably, but had no sitter to ensure he did not re-dose after the amnesia kicked in.
Another fella, maybe not so smart, but it doesn't make a difference, sliced himself up with a kitchen knife.
Another woke up in only underwear in a cow pasture Nobody knows how or why, or what happened leading up to it.
One was picked up by paramedics in the middle of a busy intersection, crawling on his belly, naked of course. And was strapped down to a gurney with a tube in his dick.
A young man here in town drowned, and his friend spent weeks in a coma.
A young guy was brought into my hospital this Halloween mumbling gibberish, high heart rate, red as a beat, dehydrated. I could tell right away. When he woke up in the morning he attacked police officers and off to jail he went.
I know a guy who had a stash that he used successfully, but his room-mate stole some, unintentionally, while delirious from a low dose, taken under supervision, and went mad, getting Mr. successful in heaps of trouble.
One of the shroomeries own, well-known, well -liked old-timers, who KNEW what datura was about and, had many experiences, that could all be considered uneventful yet effective. Suddenly found himself in a hospital bed with a two week gap of missing time spent in a coma. Apparently, while under a mild delirium, He made himself a datura salad from his plant, thinking it was spinach. He is a smart guy, most people would consider him extremely witty and intelligent.
And for reference, I don't know ALOT of people who do this, That was most of them
Obviously one shouldn't eat a datura salad, or crawl around in traffic, or try breathing water, or shitting on themselves, but they do. even the ones who think they know how to be careful with it. It's a treacherous thing to be using. It changes your mind and behaviors in radical, unpredictable ways.
Train wrecks are not the exception, they are the norm. This is the reality. For whatever reason you have not the experience to know this is irrelevant.
The fact that you believe different dosing methods are safer is also irrelevant. You lack the experience to KNOW. Nobody KNOWS. Its merely anecdotal evidence of a very small (if even real) group. And it deals with substances that have wildly unpredictable concentrations.
you think you can self-manage with no short-term memory in a vivid, dream-like landscape super-imposed over a world full of real perils?
I don't believe your hypothetical practices stand up to reality Nor do I believe anyone should go this road using your advice if they aren't able to understand that your opinion is rooted firmly in the very ideal, and rare positive possibilities that Most people, even following procedures to the letter, are going to be totally unable to reproduce effectively. And those few that do, do so with luck, and probably can't repeat it.
Even with only scolpolomine, Even if the transdermal isolation you describe is true, (citation please) delirium is still delirium.
There's too much you can't control.
That said, from the position of a trip sitter, You'd be wise to select someone who isn't as likely to be surprised or unsure of how to deal with you when you lose control of yourself. An eventuality which, by messing around with datura preparations, you MUST be willing to accept as a possible, or probable outcome.
No matter who you think you are.
Edited by Mitchnast (01/27/09 09:40 PM)
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
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Quote:
I believe that some of the "delirium" caused by the plant is actually suppressed thoughts surfacing... What if it had occurred to you to jump out of a tree? Many people wouldn't ask why.
I think this makes the difference between a death sentence and a diagnostic tool.
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Except that lucidity is lost in a delirium.
I realize that the mental state is called dissociation, and that Datura is called a dissociative.
It's possible to explore the temporary, mental consequences of this state through sober, deep, trance induction exercises.
I grant you that I have been borderline comatose on Datura combinations, but I was still able to interact peaceably with my visions and retain a useful, working knowledge of the experience, into waking consciousness.
I had become consciously aware of negative emotions within myself, and also aware of the external sources of those emotions.
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Chakravanti
Fire Shaman
Registered: 01/15/09
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Quote:
It's not the same thing as the highly sensitive state induced by actual psychedelics, You don't even have cognitive access to the "paranoia" of others. You should know that. I KNOW you know that, you're not totally uninformed. I appreciate that. BUT
Actually, I don't know shit about deliriants. I've only read about them and never experienced them. I'm curious but at the moment not enough to try them. You are more experienced than I presumed and yes, most my thought are idealistic. I'll look for a reference on the transdermal method.
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explain how you've determined I am paranoid.
and explain how you determined that paranoia of present company would hold any bearing on the souring of a case of "delirium"
Mind determines reality. If a sitter is sure the trip will be shitty it will probably be that way for the tripper. That's been my experience albiet not with deliriants.
I'll concede here because you are right; I don't have experience with deliriants. I've only studied anecdotal reports.
-------------------- This is a test. Just keep on going. Don't worry. We'll get it right. We've done this before.
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durian_2008
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Quote:
explain how you've determined I am paranoid.
A non paranoid would not have asked.
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explain how you determined that paranoia of present company would hold any bearing on the souring of a case of "delirium"
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If a sitter is sure the trip will be shitty it will probably be that way for the tripper. That's been my experience albiet not with deliriants.
This is my experience with deliriants, too.
I believe that learning is associative. A dissociative state is similar to the mindset of a baby, or an animal. No matter how innocent they may be, either of these creatures can tell the difference between a grin or a sneer. To a baby, or an animal, no aggression is passive aggression.
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durian_2008
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Quote:
citation please
As a word to the wise, some of my non-sponsor links were just removed from another thread.
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Chakravanti
Fire Shaman
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Citations don't need to be links.
Datura is not a dissociative. it is a deliriant. Very different effects and very different classes of drugs. PCP, DXM, NO2 are dissociatives and generally do not produce pronouned hallucinations. Diphenihydramine and Datura are deliriants and produce realistic hallucinations.
Psychedelics produce surreal hallucinations. It is my theory that a person of astute Anarchy (self-Government/mind control) with a strong ability to produce meditative self-awareness under the influence of altered states of mind can overcome even a delirious mind state.
I am training myself to test this theory. Datura use is rather inevitable for myself but also depends on the results of a Diph trip.
What pisses me off is people responding to lines of inquiry about datura use with 'Don't do it!", 'It's bad!', 'It's called devil's weed for a reason!' and at best follow up with a series of horror stories.
Reminds me of reefer madness. Retgardless of whether or not the horror stories are true. Datura inevitably becomes 'forbidden fruit' and what one may think of as a horror story another will consider a fantastic voyage.
I'd just like to see more accurate, pharmacological information posted without heavy slant toward usage deterance because regardless of personal opinions and bias there will always be some inclined to use. Education can only provide for a safer experience regardless of how prone the experience might be towards hazards.
All these threads, here and elsewhere, just samck of propaganda. Regardless of truth, the principle remains the same. Horror stories and warnings do not deter usage and in the end statistically generate usage. Even if it prevents some from using it causes more people to use than would otherwise. They are not an effective deterrent.
This principle is true regardless of substance. What is demonization to one is glorification to another because everyone forms their own opinion regardless of bias and slant. Then a hate culture is formed against those who do not ascribe to the demonization slant.
-------------------- This is a test. Just keep on going. Don't worry. We'll get it right. We've done this before.
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satyr
אתה בעצמך יודע
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Quote:
Chakravanti said: Citations don't need to be links.
Datura is not a dissociative. it is a deliriant. Very different effects and very different classes of drugs. PCP, DXM, NO2 are dissociatives and generally do not produce pronouned hallucinations. Diphenihydramine and Datura are deliriants and produce realistic hallucinations.
Psychedelics produce surreal hallucinations. It is my theory that a person of astute Anarchy (self-Government/mind control) with a strong ability to produce meditative self-awareness under the influence of altered states of mind can overcome even a delirious mind state.
I am training myself to test this theory. Datura use is rather inevitable for myself but also depends on the results of a Diph trip.
What pisses me off is people responding to lines of inquiry about datura use with 'Don't do it!", 'It's bad!', 'It's called devil's weed for a reason!' and at best follow up with a series of horror stories.
Reminds me of reefer madness. Retgardless of whether or not the horror stories are true. Datura inevitably becomes 'forbidden fruit' and what one may think of as a horror story another will consider a fantastic voyage.
I'd just like to see more accurate, pharmacological information posted without heavy slant toward usage deterance because regardless of personal opinions and bias there will always be some inclined to use. Education can only provide for a safer experience regardless of how prone the experience might be towards hazards.
All these threads, here and elsewhere, just samck of propaganda. Regardless of truth, the principle remains the same. Horror stories and warnings do not deter usage and in the end statistically generate usage. Even if it prevents some from using it causes more people to use than would otherwise. They are not an effective deterrent.
This principle is true regardless of substance. What is demonization to one is glorification to another because everyone forms their own opinion regardless of bias and slant. Then a hate culture is formed against those who do not ascribe to the demonization slant.
Good post. This pretty much sums up my feelings as well.
-------------------- Looking for Astrophytum asterias specimens; have cacti for trade
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durian_2008
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Re: Datura [Re: satyr]
#9696393 - 01/28/09 07:23 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Datura is not a dissociative. it is a deliriant.
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Diphenihydramine and Datura are deliriants and produce realistic hallucinations.
What makes them seem real?
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Chakravanti
Fire Shaman
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I have no idea. I only know that users describe an inability to discenr reality from the hallucination such as is not experienced on psychedelics. I wonder if it is simply a difference in the way the hallucination occur, the types of hallucinations or if it is a chemical reaction in the brain that influnces more than just perception but belief as well.
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satyr
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Deliriants produce effects far different from that of psychedelics. You do not get tracers, breathing, light patterns, or kaleidoscopic visuals that are common with other substances. My first real experience with this was when I was 14 I decided to try belladonna. Its quite a long story, but I'll keep it simple. One part of the experience for example, occured when I decided to take a stroll in the woods next to my house. I was walking around trying to enjoy this bizarre feeling in my body and head, and while I was ponder the most bizarre of ideas, my cousin came into the woods panting, acting frantic. He told me that there has been an accident, and I needed to come home immediately. We both rushed home, me scared as hell because I was high off of this strange new substance, and afraid of what has happened. He led me to my house, and I then started to panic because my brother was the only person home, and I was deeply afraid that something has happened to him. I rushed ahead of him, and looked around and saw nothing. I walked to my brothers room, and no one was there. Then I started to feel quite dizzy and vertigo set in immediately. I started to become quite afraid because the feeling was just so strange. I lay down on the bed and dozed off almost instantly. When I woke up I was back in the woods again, head spinning, but okay nonetheless. What I then realized, was that I had never left the woods. I called my cousin then, and sure enough, he never came out there. This goes to show the extreme nature of deliriants. That act nothing like psychedelics, they dont even FEEL psychedelic in the least.
-------------------- Looking for Astrophytum asterias specimens; have cacti for trade
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
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Re: Datura [Re: satyr]
#9699012 - 01/29/09 08:58 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Datura is not a dissociative. it is a deliriant...Diphenihydramine and Datura are deliriants and produce realistic hallucinations.
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What makes them seem real?
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I have no idea.
IMHO, we judge reality through association. When we lose the mental guideposts, from which we gauge reality, I call that a dissociative state. I believe that delirium is a dissociative state.
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger
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yeah, most of the people I've spoken to are completely unaware of people in the room, let alone what the people are thinking/saying. Meanwhile they are aware of people NOT present, and are completely unable to distinguish between the two.
sitter wise, I Know the depth of what to expect and that it doesn't include any particular detail, I wouldn't get panicked or take a "well this isn't supposed to happen" stance. Someone breaks windows or shits themselves, you deal with it. Even if you have to load them into the shower, launder their clothes, and situate them in a comfy chair with a teddy bear, lava lamp, and mood music, You forget your own comfort and cater to their perception. A chiller, more enthusiastic sitter isn't going to be ready, and the sitee is as good as unsupervised.
"chill people" are that way because they are situation-dependent and are used to fun times and social atmosphere. They are naive. They might be fine trip sitting for acid or shrooms. But frankly, I wouldn't treat such benign substances as so dire. Even so, Ive sat people who have had panic attacks while tripping. I've dealt with it. They go limp and start shivering, so i carry them to a warm place and wrap them in a warm blanket, I help them go to the bathroom. Talk to them sympathetically in their darkest hours. Being laid back and easy is great for fun times, but things can go sideways, sometimes you need to be a counselor, sometimes a bouncer. When chill people drop in suddenly to hang out with someone who can't speak, you have to control them, THEY are the ones who become confused and paranoid. THEY "Sour" the trip. If you think I'm one of "THEM" then you're the one talking paranoid.
I've seen enough of it to confidently call myself a savvy, experienced sitter. Like a Psychedelic nurse. I do what needs to be done to avoid train wrecks. The risk assessment process needs to be beefed up with deliriants. You can't go to bed, or send someone home, or let them leave, You have to be in control for the long run, Forget paranoid, paranoia is an unreasonable suspicion. I know to expect and prepare for the ugliest, It is probable, and it has a long window of potential occurrence time, The subject doesn't even KNOW they are compromised for more than brief, sporadic occasions.
I know what is needed in a sitter. And I know a lot of people don't.
Deliriants are dissociative, The difference is they allow you to construct an vague, alternate reality to associate with and make you unable to tell the difference or appreciate the change. By that merit, they are even MORE dissociative than dissociatives. They are dissociatives, with a synergistic twist.
I say this with humor. I think it's funny. And frankly, I'd enjoy being the sitter, If for nothing else, than to experience the trip, because ultimately, the sitter is the one who is aware enough to actually experience it. The person ON the substance is gone, they abandon their body to the behaviors resulting from the consciousness of dreams, habits, and fractured memories. So basically, you expect a lot of delusional smoking, shoe-tying, house tidying, remote-button-pushing, amid acted out dreams, and no understandable memory or language, And you prepare for unexpected problems.
The more I think about it, the more I want to do it
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
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Science believes that a tolerance can be built up, but I believe there is a reverse tolerance.
Also, I believe that stimulants can potentiate Datura.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Quote:
Mitchnast said: Delirium means you can sit down and eat a shit sandwich with lizards and think it's skittles pie, from Bob Dylans spider factory. People walk through glass windows and crawl naked and bloodied down boulevards. You think they were just inherently stupid? Just looking for an excuse to act like a cretin? You think this is paranoia to consider these things? I've SEEN these things. They aren't the exception to the norm, Ive seen people (as in more than one) get in fights with the contents of their houses on doses that others have taken 5 times as much and only felt a dry mouth. Paranoia is an unreasonable inclination. My observations are reality.
A good friend of mine, very smart guy, ended up naked in a store basement with a fucked up spine from falling down the stairs, He dosed reasonably, but had no sitter to ensure he did not re-dose after the amnesia kicked in.
Another fella, maybe not so smart, but it doesn't make a difference, sliced himself up with a kitchen knife.
Another woke up in only underwear in a cow pasture Nobody knows how or why, or what happened leading up to it.
One was picked up by paramedics in the middle of a busy intersection, crawling on his belly, naked of course. And was strapped down to a gurney with a tube in his dick.
A young man here in town drowned, and his friend spent weeks in a coma.
A young guy was brought into my hospital this Halloween mumbling gibberish, high heart rate, red as a beat, dehydrated. I could tell right away. When he woke up in the morning he attacked police officers and off to jail he went.
I know a guy who had a stash that he used successfully, but his room-mate stole some, unintentionally, while delirious from a low dose, taken under supervision, and went mad, getting Mr. successful in heaps of trouble.
All of these incidents can be blamed on either tripping without a sitter, or using Datura in a set and setting that allows access to dangerous situations and potentially life-threatening events.
I greatly enjoy low dose Datura Stramonium use. It's a boon for lucid dreaming and has proven to be a very powerful remote viewing agent, if you buy into that particular explanatory paradigm. It has brought me into more tune with my subconscious than ever before and also delivers a delicious euphoria when mixed in very small amounts with a bit of cannabis for a meditative session. (Warning: this can be very taxing for your cardiovascular system.)
It's a great deal more toxic than psychedelics, sure, but I find your diatribe against it wholly exclusionary of its good effects. It's similar to a chainsaw--very dangerous if you don't know what you're doing, but very useful as a tool if you start with small doses and work your way up with long breaks in between. I'd honestly recommend sticking to magic mushrooms or LSD if you're concerned about the health of your mind and body, but I foresee myself continuing to use this entheogen for years to come (albeit very, very sparingly). There is great potential lurking in the beautiful Angel's Trumpet that too many people simply ignore in favor of throwing the baby out with the bathwater in a paroxysm of pharmacological snobbery.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
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Quote:
It's a boon for lucid dreaming and has proven to be a very powerful remote viewing agent, if you buy into that particular explanatory paradigm. It has brought me into more tune with my subconscious than ever before and also delivers a delicious euphoria when mixed in very small amounts with a bit of cannabis for a meditative session. (Warning: this can be very taxing for your cardiovascular system.)
Please describe the cardiovascular side effects, as you perceive them.
Speaking of energy, how does the plant help you project?
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Tropane alkaloids noticeably increase my heart rate, and cannabis by itself can make it beat it faster. I haven't noticed anything overtly negative from my use of them, but higher doses would assuredly be taxing for my cardiovascular system. Wiccan_Seeker has a good post on why he doesn't use cannabis anymore because of this property.
As far as projection goes, taking a low dose before sleep dramatically increases the chances that I'll have an OBE. Definitely shakes up the strong ties between the physical and the astral body, for lack of a better metaphor.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
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Thank you.
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satyr
אתה בעצמך יודע
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Quote:
deCypher said:
As far as projection goes, taking a low dose before sleep dramatically increases the chances that I'll have an OBE. Definitely shakes up the strong ties between the physical and the astral body, for lack of a better metaphor.
Same here. Datura and Brugmansia are two of the plants that I use for lubricating those same ties before meditation and projection. I am yet to experience the full magnitude of what these plants have to offer, though I know it is in my future at some point. The physical side-effects associated with these substances is what has kept me from going in all of the way, especially after what I experienced with night-shade.
-------------------- Looking for Astrophytum asterias specimens; have cacti for trade
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
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Re: Datura [Re: satyr]
#9707276 - 01/30/09 06:18 PM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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I went far enough to concentrate on staying alive.
In general, I believe the plant removes energetic blockages, sometimes with a damaging amount of force.
As a result of this deprogramming, I believe it can temporarily undo the mind's rigid association with material guideposts.
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger
Registered: 10/27/99
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Quote:
durian_2008 said: I went far enough to concentrate on staying alive.
In general, I believe the plant removes energetic blockages, sometimes with a damaging amount of force.
As a result of this deprogramming, I believe it can temporarily undo the mind's rigid association with material guideposts.
It should be noted, however, that this is merely the minds interpretation of the chemical changes effecting its own functioning and self-perception. If a computer had a diagnostic system to interpret the changes incurred by a direct physical blow to its diagnostic system, there's bound to be inherent misconceptions.
Sort of like how people feel on opiates. The drug directly effects pain and pleasure signals, subsequently, A person feels bliss while suffocating on their own vomit.
When you start getting into datura's "presence" or will, and begin to personify the entire idea of a plant and all it's chemical qualities as a spiritual entity or seductress, Then you're abandoning reason for the romanticized mentality of recreational shamanism.
The plant isn't unlocking spiritual energies. It's interfering with chemical processes relating to memory and awareness. So when all is said and done, your awareness and memory of what just happened is also effected.
The plants "spirit" is your own quality of superstition, a function of the mind to give itself importance by perceiving itself as more than mere fats and minerals with channels and pathways conducting fine electrical currents. THIS mind, this self-important mind, doesn't easily accept that it can be undone by physical means. It is the result of many parts that culminate in the "self" "ego" "soul" whatever. Although it is "REAL" It's perceptions are exuberantly flawed because they are slanted towards the perpetuation of the reinforcement of the atomic quality of "self"
In this case, these reinforcements are formulated under the influence of a drug that directly skews their formulation.
This is why i originally argued that shamanism should not be used as an argument for the positive aspects of datura usage. For it's a Ego-based vice of the self important mind, formed in a realm of mind-influencing elements, instead of from a impartial, uninfluenced scientific vantage.
seems to me anyway.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Quote:
Mitchnast said: The plant isn't unlocking spiritual energies. It's interfering with chemical processes relating to memory and awareness.
The same argument could be held for magic mushrooms... 'they don't let you dissolve your boundaries of self; instead, they interfere with chemical processes relating to mood, arousal, and cognitive awareness.'
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Chakravanti
Fire Shaman
Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 208
Last seen: 10 years, 7 months
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Quote:
Mitchnast said:
This is why i originally argued that shamanism should not be used as an argument for the positive aspects of datura usage. For it's a Ego-based vice of the self important mind, formed in a realm of mind-influencing elements,
I'm not sure you well understand shamanic practice. Shamanism is rather a practice of ego denial, not ego inflation. Sure, you get some dickhead who goes up 'n up preachity but dickheads are dickheads and they'll steal whatever title they think they can sell to a mass of people eager to be brainwashed to a cult formation. Cult leaders and their rantings have absolutely jack shit to do with spirituality even if they talk about spiritual practice or reference spiritual work.
Quote:
instead of from a impartial, uninfluenced scientific vantage.
Right, because scientists have divested themselves of their ego and rely on pure objectivity to determine the unequivocally absolute nature of reality?
Gah, I really wish my USB drive was working I can't quite recall a great line I'd like to be quoting from Eliphas Levi on the balancing of Religion and Science in his letters on the Qabala.
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
Registered: 04/02/08
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Loc: Raccoon City
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Quote:
Mitchnast said: the atomic quality of "self"
This language is unusual. You are of the belief that intelligences are (Gnostic) atoms of self?
This is also similar to the Qabalistc shards, such as Chakravanti probably reads about.
Supposedly, the vessel becomes whole, through the act of self-realization...
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like dissociatives represent the opposite of what you guys are trying to attain.
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Mitchnast
Toadmonger
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By atomic, I mean Indivisible. The individual is just that. And I'm referring to the quality of that, not stating that it is in fact Guaranteed. I'm merely eluding specifically to the quality of self, not broken down. into various parts. The whole package.
To be a useful term, it must be in the context of the whole paragraph.
Perhaps you could replace the phrase "atomic self" with "egocentric self"
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durian_2008
Cornucopian Eating an Elephant
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Speaking of context, can I ask whether you're Gnostic?
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Dr. uarewotueat
Peyote Farmer
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Re: Datura [Re: rchtyp]
#9726974 - 02/03/09 03:52 AM (15 years, 1 month ago) |
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This thread has been closed.
Reason: sheesh guys, don't forget that the garden is designed for the discussion of growing plants
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