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OfflineChakravanti
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Re: Datura [Re: durian_2008]
    #9682019 - 01/26/09 11:56 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Holy Shit.  If anyone considers using belladonna...ignore everything posted here.  No one here knows jack shit about this plant or how to properly use it.

Eating seeds?  Smoking?  Yeah, you'll get the worst effects of atropine.  Atropine is a chemical, along with adrenaline all shot through a huge needle directly into the heart, that is used to counter the effects of nerve agents while you scrub down with charcoal and put on your hazmat gear.

If you haven't been hit with a nerve agent, then Atropine is not an anti-convulsion.  It's a convulsion.  Muscle spams, arythmic heart, and other such necessarily ridiculous death inducing symptoms.

It is not, however, transdermally effective.  The skin acts as a filter if you come into contact with it.  Scolopomine, the deleriant in Datura/belladonna is transdermally active.  It can pass through skin pores.

Grind seeds, mix with butter, rub on skin.

If you're going to do it.  THAT'S HOW.  That's how to do it without assuredly killing yourself.  It doesn't mean it's safe.  There is nothing safe about becoming delirious four three days and losing all sense of reality.

Come to think of it....reality isn't safe either but if you'd like a nice shattering of that illusion DMT can suffice pretty well.  But as with all psychedelics, you know you're tripping and that your hallucinations aren't real.  With Delirium reality changes.  You don't know you're hallucinating.  Or so I hear.  I'm interested in finding out I just haven't found a reasonable place to become delirious for three days without getting arrested, put into a psych ward or ER.  Nor have I found someone willing to help me with that.  One of these days I'll get some serious harm reduction going on and talk to some real fairies.  Educate yourself and don't buy any prohibitionist's ignorance that grows from their fears.  For fear grows into a vine and becomes the chains of oppression.  The truth is out there.  Later bitches.

EDIT: I take that back.  There was a good piece of advice here.  Benedryl.  As a deliriant with significantly shorter duration one might 'practice' with this to experience delirium before going on the journey that is three days in length.


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Edited by Chakravanti (01/26/09 12:01 PM)

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Datura [Re: Chakravanti]
    #9684766 - 01/26/09 07:28 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Benedryl did send me to the hospital.

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Offlinemutant
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Re: Datura [Re: durian_2008]
    #9687676 - 01/27/09 09:29 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

"I don't believe that plants cause bad-thinking, but I believe they can reveal bad thoughts. This is the discernment, which I believe most people lack"

I don't think I quite follow you... You didn't define any discernment - I believe it's a degree of sensibility one must have in order to experiment safely with these plants. Not talking about ethics here, how could I, since tropane plants are widely regarded as an-ethical, devilish and such....

well maybe it's one of the reasons that drew me to them in the first place :smile:

PS: Chakravanti, is easily an example of idiot, and one with arrogance as well, the worst combo. First, there's no such thing as Scolopomine. It's scopolamine. Second, yeah Atropa is very atropine rich, so it's the least 'wanted' of tropane plants - so why the fuck use that , and third that transdermal use you suggest, is not only useless, because you don't mention which plant parts, how much, or anything at all, and also because it's extremely dangerous to dose yourselve like that. Or is it really cool because Castaneda writes about it?? :P

Like I said, because something got a shamanic touch to it, it doesn't mean shit.

Edited by mutant (01/27/09 09:42 AM)

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OfflineChakravanti
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Re: Datura [Re: mutant]
    #9687987 - 01/27/09 11:04 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

LOL@Mutant - Your pathetic attempt to insult me while twisting everything I said is vain.  Shoot me for a typo.  Shoot me for not writing an essay with information that can be found by one doing his research AS EVERY PERSON SHOULD DO BEFORE USING ANY DRUG.  Shoot me because I don't demonize something you don't understand.  Witch Hunt indeed.  Go fester your ignorance elsewhere.


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OfflineDr. uarewotueat
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Re: Datura [Re: Chakravanti]
    #9688072 - 01/27/09 11:21 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

i'll witch hunt the both of you if you don't keep this discussion civil.


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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: Datura [Re: Dr. uarewotueat]
    #9688141 - 01/27/09 11:38 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Uh, oh, here comes the inquisition!

How can people use datura responsibly when they cant even talk about it rationally :P

You know, I'm of the stance of anti-advocate. That said, If someone needs a sitter, I'm eager to take on the role.  They can expect however, That I will disseminate openly, how trying and disturbing an experience it was, with all the shit-stained details, to all.

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OfflineChakravanti
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Re: Datura [Re: Mitchnast]
    #9689812 - 01/27/09 04:29 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

No offense but you would be my last choice for a siter.  Nothing sours a trip faster than a sober person more paranoid than the tripper.  Of course I don't use sitters.  I don't recommend not using sitter but it works much better for me and there isn't anyone I trust that much that could serve well as a sitter.  Of course, I've no real interest in deliriants at this time.  I've been intrigued by them but it will be some time before I think I would be mentally/spiritually prepared for such an experience.


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Invisiblejds


Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 3,083
Re: Datura [Re: Chakravanti]
    #9689831 - 01/27/09 04:32 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I did deliriants a few times, they're "interesting" but it's not an enjoyable experience or anything euphoric. It's still amazing to see that your brain can create shadows for the hallucinations, and it all seems so real, and you definitely feel like some schizo guy.

(I don't recommend  the use of deliriants to anyone, as some really bad things can happen on them if you don't use them responsably)


--------------------
“No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten.”

― Hunter S. Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Datura [Re: jds]
    #9690334 - 01/27/09 06:10 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

yeah Atropa is very atropine rich, so it's the least 'wanted' of tropane plants - so why the fuck use that



Tradition.

BTW, traditionally, it was mixed with plants which moderated it's effects.

Quote:

that transdermal use you suggest, is not only useless, because you don't mention which plant parts, how much, or anything at all, and also because it's extremely dangerous to dose yourselve like that. Or is it really cool because Castaneda writes about it?? :P



Was that butter thing Castaneda's method?

Quote:

"I don't believe that plants cause bad-thinking, but I believe they can reveal bad thoughts. This is the discernment, which I believe most people lack"



Quote:

I don't think I quite follow you...



I believe that some of the "delirium" caused by the plant is actually suppressed thoughts surfacing.

This does not make the plant bad, in and of itself.

But, I believe that most people are incapable of categorizing thought, even when sober. Does the plant make you think bad things, are you receiving energy from another person/entity, which person or circumstance do you associate with certain thoughts, etc.

What if it had occurred to you to jump out of a tree? Many people wouldn't ask why.

I think this makes the difference between a death sentence and a diagnostic tool.

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OfflineChakravanti
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Re: Datura [Re: durian_2008]
    #9690507 - 01/27/09 06:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I've never read any Castanada.  Cheap imitation of Manson except that he never got his bitches to murder anyone.

Quote:


I believe that some of the "delirium" caused by the plant is actually suppressed thoughts surfacing.




That's true of psychedelics as well. Except that lucidity is lost in a delirium.


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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: Datura [Re: Chakravanti]
    #9691609 - 01/27/09 09:33 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Chakravanti said:
Nothing sours a trip faster than a sober person more paranoid than the tripper.




explain how you've determined I am paranoid.

and explain how you determined that paranoia of present company would hold any bearing on the souring of a case of "delirium" 

seems to me (who has lots of experience on the matter) that you have very little to no understanding of what is meant by delirium if you can even talk about trips going sour in reference to deliriants.

It's not the same thing as the highly sensitive state induced by actual psychedelics, You don't even have cognitive access to the "paranoia" of others. You should know that. I KNOW you know that, you're not totally uninformed. I appreciate that. BUT

Delirium means you can sit down and eat a shit sandwich with lizards and think it's skittles pie, from Bob Dylans spider factory.
People walk through glass windows and crawl naked and bloodied down boulevards.  You think they were just inherently stupid?  Just looking for an excuse to act like a cretin?  You think this is paranoia to consider these things? I've SEEN these things.  They aren't the exception to the norm, Ive seen people (as in more than one) get in fights with the contents of their houses on doses that others have taken 5 times as much and only felt a dry mouth.
Paranoia is an unreasonable inclination.  My observations are reality.

A good friend of mine, very smart guy, ended up naked in a store basement with a fucked up spine from falling down the stairs, He dosed reasonably, but had no sitter to ensure he did not re-dose after the amnesia kicked in.

Another fella, maybe not so smart, but it doesn't make a difference, sliced himself up with a kitchen knife.

Another woke up in only underwear in a cow pasture Nobody knows how or why, or what happened leading up to it.

One was picked up by paramedics in the middle of a busy intersection, crawling on his belly, naked of course.  And was strapped down to a gurney with a tube in his dick.

A young man here in town drowned, and his friend spent weeks in a coma.

A young guy was brought into my hospital this Halloween mumbling gibberish, high heart rate, red as a beat, dehydrated.  I could tell right away.  When he woke up in the morning he attacked police officers and off to jail he went.

I know a guy who had a stash that he used successfully, but his room-mate stole some, unintentionally, while delirious from a low dose, taken under supervision, and went mad, getting Mr. successful in heaps of trouble.

One of the shroomeries own, well-known, well -liked old-timers, who KNEW what datura was about and, had many experiences, that could all be considered uneventful yet effective. Suddenly found himself in a hospital bed with a two week gap of missing time spent in a coma. Apparently, while under a mild delirium, He made himself a datura salad from his plant, thinking it was spinach.  He is a smart guy, most people would consider him extremely witty and intelligent.

And for reference, I don't know ALOT of people who do this, That was most of them

Obviously one shouldn't eat a datura salad, or crawl around in traffic, or try breathing water, or shitting on themselves, but they do. even the ones who think they know how to be careful with it.  It's a treacherous thing to be using.  It changes your mind and behaviors in radical, unpredictable ways.

Train wrecks are not the exception, they are the norm.  This is the reality.  For whatever reason you have not the experience to know this is irrelevant. 

The fact that you believe different dosing methods are safer is also irrelevant.  You lack the experience to KNOW. Nobody KNOWS. Its merely anecdotal evidence of a very small (if even real) group.  And it deals with substances that have wildly unpredictable concentrations.

you think you can self-manage with no short-term memory in a vivid, dream-like landscape super-imposed over a world full of real perils?

I don't believe your hypothetical practices stand up to  reality
Nor do I believe anyone should go this road using your advice if they aren't able to understand that your opinion is rooted firmly in the very ideal, and rare positive possibilities that Most people, even following procedures to the letter, are going to be totally unable to reproduce effectively.  And those few that do, do so with luck, and probably can't repeat it.

Even with only scolpolomine, Even if the transdermal isolation you describe is true, (citation please) delirium  is still delirium.

There's too much you can't control. 

That said, from the position of a trip sitter, You'd be wise to select someone who isn't as likely to be surprised or unsure of how to deal with you when you lose control of yourself.  An eventuality which, by messing around with datura preparations, you MUST be willing to accept as a possible, or probable outcome.

No matter who you think you are.

Edited by Mitchnast (01/27/09 09:40 PM)

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Datura [Re: Mitchnast]
    #9693845 - 01/28/09 12:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I believe that some of the "delirium" caused by the plant is actually suppressed thoughts surfacing...
What if it had occurred to you to jump out of a tree? Many people wouldn't ask why.

I think this makes the difference between a death sentence and a diagnostic tool.




Quote:

Except that lucidity is lost in a delirium.



I realize that the mental state is called dissociation, and that Datura is called a dissociative.

It's possible to explore the temporary, mental consequences of this state through sober, deep, trance induction exercises.

I grant you that I have been borderline comatose on Datura combinations, but I was still able to interact peaceably with my visions and retain a useful, working knowledge of the experience, into waking consciousness.

I had become consciously aware of negative emotions within myself, and also aware of the external sources of those emotions.

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OfflineChakravanti
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Re: Datura [Re: durian_2008]
    #9694039 - 01/28/09 12:57 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


It's not the same thing as the highly sensitive state induced by actual psychedelics, You don't even have cognitive access to the "paranoia" of others. You should know that. I KNOW you know that, you're not totally uninformed. I appreciate that. BUT




Actually, I don't know shit about deliriants.  I've only read about them and never experienced them.  I'm curious but at the moment not enough to try them.  You are more experienced than I presumed and yes, most my thought are idealistic.  I'll look for a reference on the transdermal method.

Quote:



explain how you've determined I am paranoid.

and explain how you determined that paranoia of present company would hold any bearing on the souring of a case of "delirium" 




Mind determines reality.  If a sitter is sure the trip will be shitty it will probably be that way for the tripper.  That's been my experience albiet not with deliriants.

I'll concede here because you are right; I don't have experience with deliriants.  I've only studied anecdotal reports.


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Datura [Re: Chakravanti]
    #9694343 - 01/28/09 02:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

explain how you've determined I am paranoid.



A non paranoid would not have asked.

Quote:

explain how you determined that paranoia of present company would hold any bearing on the souring of a case of "delirium"



Quote:

If a sitter is sure the trip will be shitty it will probably be that way for the tripper.  That's been my experience albiet not with deliriants.



This is my experience with deliriants, too.

I believe that learning is associative. A dissociative state is similar to the mindset of a baby, or an animal. No matter how innocent they may be, either of these creatures can tell the difference between a grin or a sneer. To a baby, or an animal, no aggression is passive aggression.

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Datura [Re: durian_2008]
    #9694363 - 01/28/09 02:12 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

citation please



As a word to the wise, some of my non-sponsor links were just removed from another thread.

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OfflineChakravanti
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Re: Datura [Re: durian_2008]
    #9694470 - 01/28/09 02:31 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Citations don't need to be links.

Datura is not a dissociative.  it is a deliriant.  Very different effects and very different classes of drugs.  PCP, DXM, NO2 are dissociatives and generally do not produce pronouned hallucinations.  Diphenihydramine and Datura are deliriants and produce realistic hallucinations.

Psychedelics produce surreal hallucinations.  It is my theory that a person of astute Anarchy (self-Government/mind control) with a strong ability to produce meditative self-awareness under the influence of altered states of mind can overcome even a delirious mind state. 

I am training myself to test this theory.  Datura use is rather inevitable for myself but also depends on the results of a Diph trip.

What pisses me off is people responding to lines of inquiry about datura use with 'Don't do it!", 'It's bad!', 'It's called devil's weed for a reason!' and at best follow up with a series of horror stories.

Reminds me of reefer madness.  Retgardless of whether or not the horror stories are true.  Datura inevitably becomes 'forbidden fruit' and what one may think of as a horror story another will consider a fantastic voyage.

I'd just like to see more accurate, pharmacological information posted without heavy slant toward usage deterance because regardless of personal opinions and bias there will always be some inclined to use.  Education can only provide for a safer experience regardless of how prone the experience might be towards hazards.

All these threads, here and elsewhere, just samck of propaganda.  Regardless of truth, the principle remains the same.  Horror stories and warnings do not deter usage and in the end statistically generate usage.  Even if it prevents some from using it causes more people to use than would otherwise.  They are not an effective deterrent.

This principle is true regardless of substance.  What is demonization to one is glorification to another because everyone forms their own opinion regardless of bias and slant. Then a hate culture is formed against those who do not ascribe to the demonization slant.


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Offlinesatyr
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Re: Datura [Re: Chakravanti]
    #9694629 - 01/28/09 02:55 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Chakravanti said:
Citations don't need to be links.

Datura is not a dissociative.  it is a deliriant.  Very different effects and very different classes of drugs.  PCP, DXM, NO2 are dissociatives and generally do not produce pronouned hallucinations.  Diphenihydramine and Datura are deliriants and produce realistic hallucinations.

Psychedelics produce surreal hallucinations.  It is my theory that a person of astute Anarchy (self-Government/mind control) with a strong ability to produce meditative self-awareness under the influence of altered states of mind can overcome even a delirious mind state. 

I am training myself to test this theory.  Datura use is rather inevitable for myself but also depends on the results of a Diph trip.

What pisses me off is people responding to lines of inquiry about datura use with 'Don't do it!", 'It's bad!', 'It's called devil's weed for a reason!' and at best follow up with a series of horror stories.

Reminds me of reefer madness.  Retgardless of whether or not the horror stories are true.  Datura inevitably becomes 'forbidden fruit' and what one may think of as a horror story another will consider a fantastic voyage.

I'd just like to see more accurate, pharmacological information posted without heavy slant toward usage deterance because regardless of personal opinions and bias there will always be some inclined to use.  Education can only provide for a safer experience regardless of how prone the experience might be towards hazards.

All these threads, here and elsewhere, just samck of propaganda.  Regardless of truth, the principle remains the same.  Horror stories and warnings do not deter usage and in the end statistically generate usage.  Even if it prevents some from using it causes more people to use than would otherwise.  They are not an effective deterrent.

This principle is true regardless of substance.  What is demonization to one is glorification to another because everyone forms their own opinion regardless of bias and slant. Then a hate culture is formed against those who do not ascribe to the demonization slant.


Good post. This pretty much sums up my feelings as well.


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Looking for Astrophytum asterias specimens; have cacti for trade :pm:

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Datura [Re: satyr]
    #9696393 - 01/28/09 07:23 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Datura is not a dissociative.  it is a deliriant.



Quote:

Diphenihydramine and Datura are deliriants and produce realistic hallucinations.



What makes them seem real?

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OfflineChakravanti
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Re: Datura [Re: durian_2008]
    #9696656 - 01/28/09 08:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I have no idea.  I only know that users describe an inability to discenr reality from the hallucination such as is not experienced on psychedelics.  I wonder if it is simply a difference in the way the hallucination occur, the types of hallucinations or if it is a chemical reaction in the brain that influnces more than just perception but belief as well.


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Offlinesatyr
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Re: Datura [Re: Chakravanti]
    #9696743 - 01/28/09 08:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Deliriants produce effects far different from that of psychedelics. You do not get tracers, breathing, light patterns, or kaleidoscopic visuals that are common with other substances.
My first real experience with this was when I was 14 I decided to try belladonna.
Its quite a long story, but I'll keep it simple. One part of the experience for example, occured when I decided to take a stroll in the woods next to my house. I was walking around trying to enjoy this bizarre feeling in my body and head, and while I was ponder the most bizarre of ideas, my cousin came into the woods panting, acting frantic.
He told me that there has been an accident, and I needed to come home immediately. We both rushed home, me scared as hell because I was high off of this strange new substance, and afraid of what has happened. He led me to my house, and I then started to panic because my brother was the only person home, and I was deeply afraid that something has happened to him. I rushed ahead of him, and looked around and saw nothing. I walked to my brothers room, and no one was there. Then I started to feel quite dizzy and vertigo set in immediately. I started to become quite afraid because the feeling was just so strange. I lay down on the bed and dozed off almost instantly.
When I woke up I was back in the woods again, head spinning, but okay nonetheless. What I then realized, was that I had never left the woods. I called my cousin then, and sure enough, he never came out there.
This goes to show the extreme nature of deliriants. That act nothing like psychedelics, they dont even FEEL psychedelic in the least.


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Looking for Astrophytum asterias specimens; have cacti for trade :pm:

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