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Offlineethnoguy
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Re: Datura [Re: Mitchnast]
    #9628649 - 01/17/09 09:28 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Wow, I really think that the term shaman may be a bit broad. I think their are plenty of smart shaman out there today. To put them all in a basket is profiling IMO. Modern Toltec, is about as good as it gets. I really appreciate it and their understanding of the tonal and the nagual.

EG

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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: Datura [Re: ethnoguy]
    #9629014 - 01/17/09 10:52 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I suppose we can be specific here and only be profiling datura-shamans.
The hypothetical shamans used in rhetoric to support the "safe historical use" of datura so frequently mentioned in articles and advocations.

the point is, datura isn't safe, why should adding purveyors of bygone religions to the argument hold any weight, If anything it ought to discredit the argument.

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Offlinemutant
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Re: Datura [Re: Mitchnast]
    #9631446 - 01/18/09 11:34 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Mitchnast , even though I liked all you said about shamans etc etc, I am a sceptic as well, and I am glad to see people in the 'community' , like you, who seem to understand the huge gap between modern society and shamanic based one, and sure we have to qustion shaman's way, not only becuase we are children of the modern 'western' world, but also because idols are big trap....

but I don't really agree you cant use datura safely...

of course you can, people take dramamine all the time and its safe... you can smoke a joint with datura leaves and be relatively safe... thing is, that drug is not for most people...

people are hasty, in a hurry to get stoned, high, whatever... this drug is not for most .. it's dangerous, but SURE IT CAN BE USED SAFELY, only BY SOME!

and anyway, it won't be pleasant for most, so don't bother....

If you are sensible, then you know what to do...

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Datura [Re: mutant]
    #9631611 - 01/18/09 12:08 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The hypothetical shamans used in rhetoric to support the "safe historical use" of datura so frequently mentioned in articles and advocations.



To be clear, my opinions are based only on personal experience, although I have overheard that Castaneda was distrusted.

Knowing the full range of effects caused by the specie, I believe that carefully monitored, personal reactions to individual plants are predictable. I do not believe that one more seed, or one more, tiny leaf fragment, irretrievably destroyed anyone's mind or body.

Quote:

faith healers, snake-oil salesmen, and televangelists know what they are doing too.  Some of them probably come to believe in it.



We're still talking about hypotheticals. If I predict a specific event to a savage, and it doesn't come true, then, I expect a savage reprisal.

If I was to offer a service to a doubter, I would have to produce tangible results, regardless of how I produced them.

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Offlineethnoguy
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Re: Datura [Re: durian_2008]
    #9634616 - 01/18/09 09:02 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Castenada was distrusted. It's also safe to say that some of his followers don't believe that Don Juan is a real person. They seem to think it is a composite of several characters. No one can agure that his books aren't important. That is why their are critics. If I can't find critics in whatever I may be doing, then it is atropied time IMO. Anything with meaning has a critic.

But those televangelist wear me out. Fucking cons preying on the desperate. That is low. Of course I'm only talking about the ones that drive fancy cars. Some of them seem modest. And of course they believe their own rhetoric. Thats what cons teach themselves to do.

EG

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Offlinemeatspin
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Re: Datura [Re: ethnoguy]
    #9637554 - 01/19/09 11:30 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

god i hate televangelists. with a fiery passion.

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Datura [Re: meatspin]
    #9644578 - 01/20/09 09:03 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The Bible explicitly prescribes corporal punishments for false prophets and makes evangelists (missionaries) sound poor.

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Offlineethnoguy
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Re: Datura [Re: durian_2008]
    #9646237 - 01/20/09 02:49 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

False profits do have it coming to them, but I disagree that missionaries in the Bible are poor. Most of them possibly. Jesus wore a seamless robe. Those were very expensive back then. Anyway, the thread has been jacked. I'll shut up now before uare gets me :wink:.

EG

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OfflineDr. uarewotueat
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Re: Datura [Re: ethnoguy]
    #9646281 - 01/20/09 02:58 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

hehe well, i don't feel that getting off topic is anything to worry about if it is a natural progression of the discussion...
so long as it is not designed to aggrevate anyone and any questions from the OP have been answered, it's fine by me :thumbup:


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Datura [Re: Dr. uarewotueat]
    #9651821 - 01/21/09 12:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Jesus wore a seamless robe. Those were very expensive back then.



So was oil of spikenard. Did Jesus demand the flattery, or did Jesus ask people what they thought?

Quote:

Anyway, the thread has been jacked.



I felt that it was on topic.

We're talking about people who come across as being wacked.

Are they mentally debilitated, or what?

Whether poor, or rich, or Christian, or demonized, or sober, or high on Datura, if a person successfully reveals hidden knowledge of a tangible event, I believe he is, in some degree, still functional.

I also agree with Michnast to the extent that I do not to believe people just because they act like authorities on certain subject.

Some of you guys put your life on the line, all on the good word of your literary heroes, who were just out to sell books.

I'm telling you there are ways for critical thinkers to challenge the status quo.

Around here, Datura, is not welcomed for discussion.

I'm wondering if people on either side are just reading from a book, or if they watch their opinion on TV.

If anyone really knows what they're talking about, what happened to who, after how much? In your own experience, what were contributing factors?

Thanks.

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OfflineDr. uarewotueat
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Re: Datura [Re: durian_2008]
    #9651991 - 01/21/09 12:41 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Around here, Datura, is not welcomed for discussion.



it is as welcome as any other plant, however caution must be exercised as the plant is highly toxic.
thedudenj has plenty of threads and posts on the topic, but if you search his posts take his advice with a pinch of salt :wink:


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Datura [Re: Dr. uarewotueat]
    #9652388 - 01/21/09 01:48 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks for being inclusive, but I've noticed that Datura threads often wind up with curious people getting side tracked and berated.

I've taken the plant, many times, considerately, and have suffered no permanent, ill effects, of which I'm aware.

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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: Datura [Re: durian_2008]
    #9654865 - 01/21/09 08:26 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
Thanks for being inclusive, but I've noticed that Datura threads often wind up with curious people getting side tracked and berated.

I've taken the plant, many times, considerately, and have suffered no permanent, ill effects, of which I'm aware.




Curious people who do dangerous things often feel persecuted, how curious....  It's almost as though people are singling them out for their dangerous curiosities instead of getting to know them as people, leaving them no choice but to contrive unsubstantial claims of unprovable historical references and personal anecdotes (anomalous to the norm) as examples of practice to contradict the general consensus. It's just not fair!  It's almost like humans are STUCK being this way, and we all just have to deal with it.

Step one of responsibility in exploring datura, you accept the fact that a lot of people with a reasonable understanding of the plant and its properties are going to think you are using poor judgment by consuming it or encouraging others to do so weather directly, or passively with positive, shining accounts that contradict the sea of train-wrecks.  Said people are going to probably not improve their opinion on said personality trait because of the rationalizations of a curious persecutee.

For the most part, I think the quality you are noticing is a general opposition of anything that promotes datura as a "drug" when it ought to be squarely placed in the realm of "poisons"

It's a poison, It drives you mad and kills you,  the "drug" that people want it to be is merely the practice of trying to take enough to go mad, but not enough to die.  Every person has a different reaction, and every single iota of plant matter has a very different potency profile from the next.  It's frankly roulette.  You know, people who succeed with Russian roulette tend to report no lingering side effects as well.
The ones who don't, don't contribute their opinion so much.

With datura, were lucky to have the accounts of those tho got the bang but not the bullet.  And with all their accounts, we still have people citing tribal usage and anecdotal success as a counter argument.  This should be discouraged as we all know that there's people who will only listen to the advise that supports them in satisfying their "curiosities" 

When you GIVE advice, what you TAKE is responsibility.

If people take my advice, they will be safe.

If they take "I've taken the plant, many times, considerately, and have suffered no permanent, ill effects, of which I'm aware"
Their safety is not guaranteed.  And there will be nobody around to answer for it.  I suppose that disassociation from the product of influences makes it easy to support practices that carry serious risks.
Personally, I don't share in this sense of disassociation, or persecution.  But I still get to be curious.  win-win.

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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: Datura [Re: Mitchnast]
    #9654906 - 01/21/09 08:33 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Hmm, i guess i can abridge that to say i think responsible people
should do and say whatever they can, within reason, as to not sabotage their own platform, to discourage the practice of consuming datura.

After that, people will still use it, they will still find their positive accounts to spur them onward.  But some people will see reason, and thats the whole point.

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Datura [Re: Mitchnast]
    #9658524 - 01/22/09 12:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I've taken the plant, many times, considerately, and have suffered no permanent, ill effects, of which I'm aware



Please take notice that I made this statement conditionally.

Don't trust one iota of text, which comes from this userid. Don't accept what popular authors glorify. Don't trust the doubters.

Instead, think for yourselves, about what makes the difference.

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Offlineethnoguy
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Re: Datura [Re: durian_2008]
    #9662260 - 01/22/09 10:06 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
Quote:

Jesus wore a seamless robe. Those were very expensive back then.



So was oil of spikenard. Did Jesus demand the flattery, or did Jesus ask people what they thought?

Quote:

Anyway, the thread has been jacked.



I felt that it was on topic.

We're talking about people who come across as being wacked.

Are they mentally debilitated, or what?

Whether poor, or rich, or Christian, or demonized, or sober, or high on Datura, if a person successfully reveals hidden knowledge of a tangible event, I believe he is, in some degree, still functional.

I also agree with Michnast to the extent that I do not to believe people just because they act like authorities on certain subject.

Some of you guys put your life on the line, all on the good word of your literary heroes, who were just out to sell books.

I'm telling you there are ways for critical thinkers to challenge the status quo.




Jesus didn't write a book though :lol:. I'm not some crazy christian guy. I think every philosophy and major religion deserves some study. I enjoy looking it all over. But yeah there are tons of space monkeys out there. A shame really. But the people that study religion seem quick to dismiss the advances made in the different forms of physics :wink:.

EG

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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: Datura [Re: ethnoguy]
    #9662362 - 01/22/09 10:26 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I felt bad that I might have been untactful I just want to apologize for any rude things might I direct at individuals that are tailored towards specific issues.

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Offlineethnoguy
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Re: Datura [Re: Mitchnast]
    #9662375 - 01/22/09 10:29 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

What Mitch? I don't see the need in any apologize  to anyone. Maybe the Amish, but they aren't reading this anyway. :lol:

EG

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Offlinemutant
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Re: Datura [Re: ethnoguy]
    #9669832 - 01/24/09 07:34 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I have decided that I am not in this world to care about the idiots. Well most of the time anyway.... We are crowded with idiots - we cannot take their approach of life as the standard.

And, I honestly don't care if people get poisoned by daturas or they can't undestand how to use amanita muscaria.

My research has to do with exploring some plants...

The Datura thing quite honestly takes off in the false opinion [which arises from the classic psychedelics users and irresponsible quotes  'if in doubt double the dose' from McKenna]

In my book, there's no rule that one has to take a lot, so as to have the 'real', 'full-blown' etc experience, not even with classic psychedelics. Everyone should be responsible enough to know himself enough so as to determine the dose and on which occasion it should be ingested.

So exploration of a plant doesn't mean discovering recreational potential or determining the maximum safe dose... To me it's about 'what can this plant do' , and in what use frame could we put it, if at all....

We needn't like and worship everything, jsut because it's got a shamanic hisotry behind. I have felt drawn to these plants and have grown them.... My fascination with them didn't end with my first experiment with smoking hyoscyamus leaf along with some wine, recently. Many of these plants have been used as inebriants as well as healing drugs in europe and my own country. Mandrake grows wild here too :smile:

I think these plants do have interesting potential, but I REPEAT, they are not for most people.

Edited by mutant (01/27/09 09:18 AM)

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: Datura [Re: mutant]
    #9681601 - 01/26/09 10:19 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Jesus didn't write a book though :lol:. I'm not some crazy christian guy. I think every philosophy and major religion deserves some study. I enjoy looking it all over.



In the Christian tradition, Jesus, himself, is the Word.

Quote:

But yeah there are tons of space monkeys out there. A shame really. But the people that study religion seem quick to dismiss the advances made in the different forms of physics :wink:.



As someone who studies religion and science, I believe that miraculous claims ought to be falsifiable.

As for space cases, you'd be risking your life to B.S. them with fakeouts. In undeveloped communities, public reprisal is physically dangerous.

Quote:

I think these plants do have interesting potential, but I REPEAT, they are not for most people.



I don't believe that plants cause bad-thinking, but I believe they can reveal bad thoughts. This is the discernment, which I believe most people lack.

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