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Subbedhunter420
Solitary Hunter



Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 1,501
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New Psilocybe species (Psilocybe Meridianus)
#9175403 - 11/02/08 11:41 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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I wanted to tell you all that the species of psilocybe that Alteredstates and I have found in the last year that was presumed to be psilocybe subaeruginascens, is not ps. subaeruginascens. It seems that it grows scleriota on agar mediums and also prefers conifers.
We will present a new name for the species by thursday, Nov 6.
Edited by Subbedhunter420 (11/07/08 11:18 AM)
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canid
irregular meat sprocket




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great news.
i like to see the ranks of the genus fill out, even if they haven't taken the plunge to setting it on it's own yet.
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Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it. If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.
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BlimeyGrimey
Collector of Spores




Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 3,787
Loc: Puget Sound
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Sweet! I have a print of this!! I just swiped some of the spores onto MEA plates a few days ago.
Let's hope for some sclerotia!
-------------------- Message me for free microscopy services on Psilocybe, Panaeolus, and Gymnopilus species. Looking for wild Panaeolus cinctulus and Panaeolus olivaceus prints.
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CureCat
Strangest


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Subbed, who is working on this?
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MHbound
Ballin Out At All Cost


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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
#9175490 - 11/03/08 12:04 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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BlimeyGrimey
Collector of Spores




Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 3,787
Loc: Puget Sound
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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
#9175498 - 11/03/08 12:06 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hmmm.. I just looked at this page, Mycotaxon Submissions.
So anyone can write up the paper? Is a certain degree (PhD) needed?
-------------------- Message me for free microscopy services on Psilocybe, Panaeolus, and Gymnopilus species. Looking for wild Panaeolus cinctulus and Panaeolus olivaceus prints.
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CureCat
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Mycotaxon is an excellent journal.
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canid
irregular meat sprocket




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i think as long as the paper uniquely describes [defines] the taxon that's all that's needed.
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Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it. If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.
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psilocin85
Stranger



Registered: 11/02/08
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Quote:
Subbedhunter420 said:
These look similiar to Cyans... is it possible that these might have made there way to europe??
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CptnGarden
fuck this site

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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: psilocin85]
#9176700 - 11/03/08 10:08 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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cyans have been growing in europe for ages.
if these are a new psilocybe then who knows where else they would grow.
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,667
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Quote:
BlimeyGrimey said:
So anyone can write up the paper? Is a certain degree (PhD) needed?
For scientific journals, a degree is not necessary, but it's usually pretty difficult to get accepted if you don't know your way around scientific publishing. I'm not in biology or exact sciences, so I couldn't help you with this, I'm afraid. Perhaps Senor_Hongos, Alan_Rockefeller or Workman could be of help, if they have time to spare?
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Subbedhunter420
Solitary Hunter



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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
#9176946 - 11/03/08 10:52 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
CureCat said: Subbed, who is working on this?
Nightflyer sent me the message and a picture of auweias kind on agar and my own comparatively telling me the differences. Now I know it may not be the king of mushrooms whom told me to name this species but I was told Its my discovery and I should.
IF anyone else has done the taxonomy or any research on this species, please present it forward.
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector


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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: koraks]
#9176981 - 11/03/08 11:03 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
koraks said:
Quote:
BlimeyGrimey said:
So anyone can write up the paper? Is a certain degree (PhD) needed?
For scientific journals, a degree is not necessary, but it's usually pretty difficult to get accepted if you don't know your way around scientific publishing. I'm not in biology or exact sciences, so I couldn't help you with this, I'm afraid. Perhaps Senor_Hongos, Alan_Rockefeller or Workman could be of help, if they have time to spare?
That's correct, Koraks. I don't know about now but back in the day you could even name species if you could write the description in Latin and knew the ins and outs of peer-review publishing.
I appreciate the recommendation but I'm afraid my time is already allotted for several projects to some very patient Shroomerites. Alan and Workman are more than qualified (as if that needed to be said). If I had a project I needed help on both of those men are at the top of a very short list.
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psilocin85
Stranger



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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: CptnGarden]
#9177085 - 11/03/08 11:25 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
CptnGarden said: cyans have been growing in europe for ages.
if these are a new psilocybe then who knows where else they would grow.
I know Cyans have been growing in europe, what i asked was if those in the picture might be growing in europe... my reason for asking is they look very much like cyans.
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CptnGarden
fuck this site

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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: psilocin85]
#9177262 - 11/03/08 12:04 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocin85 said:
Quote:
CptnGarden said: cyans have been growing in europe for ages.
if these are a new psilocybe then who knows where else they would grow.
I know Cyans have been growing in europe, what i asked was if those in the picture might be growing in europe... my reason for asking is they look very much like cyans.
if so they would have been discovered long before subb discovered them.
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Kupo
Kupop!


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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: psilocin85]
#9177618 - 11/03/08 01:29 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
psilocin85 said:
Quote:
CptnGarden said: cyans have been growing in europe for ages.
if these are a new psilocybe then who knows where else they would grow.
I know Cyans have been growing in europe, what i asked was if those in the picture might be growing in europe... my reason for asking is they look very much like cyans.
don't look like cyans to me :P
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German Kahuna
Facepalmer of Stoopid



Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 15,798
Loc: On a Chemical Vacation
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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: Kupo]
#9177777 - 11/03/08 01:59 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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About 18-20 years ago, I found a batch of albino Semilanceatas. Well, they weren't even albino, really, they weren't white, but more like almost colorless. Way weird. They were clear colored, almost fluorescent, with a bluish glow where bruised, of course (NO, I WASN'T tripping back then! ). I wish I would have been into growing back then and had collected the spores of that strain for preservation. They were definitely potent as hell, that's for sure.
-------------------- "Vegetarian" [ /ˌvedʒəˈteəriən/] - Ancient slang meaning "village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride".
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koraks
Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 26,667
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Sterile semilanceatas. They occur, although I've never had the pleasure of finding them. Here are some excellent pics of sterile liberty caps. This one says it all:
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canid
irregular meat sprocket




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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: koraks]
#9177822 - 11/03/08 02:09 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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i used to find them during the end of the season in washington state. they got huge and robust sometimes, and resembled candy corns in some ways.
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Attn PWN hunters: If you should come across a bluing Psilocybe matching P. pellicolusa please smell it. If you detect a scent reminiscent of Anethole (anise) please preserve a specimen or two for study and please PM me.
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German Kahuna
Facepalmer of Stoopid



Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 15,798
Loc: On a Chemical Vacation
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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: koraks]
#9177849 - 11/03/08 02:15 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
koraks said: Sterile semilanceatas. They occur, although I've never had the pleasure of finding them. Here are some excellent pics of sterile liberty caps. This one says it all:
Yep, that's them! Cool!  But the stems were not this yellowish. They were of the same almost colorless transparent appearance as the caps.
-------------------- "Vegetarian" [ /ˌvedʒəˈteəriən/] - Ancient slang meaning "village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride".
Edited by German Kahuna (11/03/08 02:24 PM)
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CureCat
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You don't need any qualifications to name a species, however, you will need someone to do some ITS sequencing at the least. But I mean, you better have a convincing proposal for this new species. You have to have to site the evidence, and also describe all the identifying features.
Usually I see amateurs decide to work with a professional in the field to help publish the paper. Both of your names would be published. For one, professional mycologists jobs revolve around researching and publishing your findings in a peer reviewed, scientific journal, so they're used to doing it all the time. Furthermore, Scientific journals are more likely to consider your submission if the name of a well known scientist accompanies the paper.
Then the International Code of Botanical Nomenclature (ICBN) either accepts or rejects the proposal of the new species name. So be sure that your evidence and article meets the criteria the codes.
I've been away from the Bruns Lab for a couple months, but plan to return as soon as I have the time and money to commute to Berkeley twice a week. I think by January I may be back, so if you haven't had this Psilocybe sequenced by then, I can do it if you want.
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Subbedhunter420
Solitary Hunter



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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
#9178551 - 11/03/08 04:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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I would love for you to sequence this mushroom curecat, I dont remember if I have sent you a sample or not but if you need some please message me.
If anyone is willing and capable of helping me finalize and get this species published please message me.
These are not cyans, nor the suspected ps. subaeruginascens.
There are several distinguishing characteristics of this mushrooms.
-Long season (Late April-October -Warm weather species -Prefers conifers such as douglas fir. But also enjoys eucalyptus and hay. -Forms Scleriota in agar. (Only woodloving species I know of that does...) -Is moderate-high in potency. Comparative to cubensis or stronger. -Has an annulus on the stem, veils in early stages of primordia -Very light cinnamon color. rarely dark even during pinning. -Blues down to nearly the hyphal level. -The spore color of ps subaeruginascens is much darker of a purple than this species. (which is a light purple)

http://i521.photobucket.com/albums/w337/gerilori/PsilocybeSanFranciscoCA.jpg This is a link to Auweia's San Francisco Ps. Subaeruginascens growing on agar.
http://i521.photobucket.com/albums/w337/gerilori/PsilocybeVenturaCountyCA.jpg This is the image of The southern california Psilocybe on agar.
What are all of your views everyone?
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weiliiiiiii
Stranger


Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 9,711
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congrats subbed, its always nice to see people on here discover new species.
Im proud of ya, keep representing this site well.
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CureCat
Strangest


Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 14,058
Loc: clawing your furniture
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The mycelium is quite wispy, like Ps. tampanensis mycelium.
Ya gonna come back up here this Fall, Subbed? You should come around the Fungus Fair, on Sat & Sun, Dec 6 & 7.
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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran



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Hmmmm, dunno. Some microscopy images of the cystidia would help. It may be just a species outside of its normal range. Did I get a sample of this and just not get around to working it up? Seems like I have a Subbedhunter420 "P. subaeruginascens" sample in my to do pile.
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification 
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mathewww
Lurker.


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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: Workman]
#9178737 - 11/03/08 05:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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My question is:
Do they make you trip balls?
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CptnGarden
fuck this site

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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: mathewww]
#9179652 - 11/03/08 08:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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if they bruise bright blue like that, drop a purple spore print, and resemble the characteristics of the cyanescens variations, its probably safe to say they do make you "trip balls"
then again, ide like to see these have some actual lab work done on them to find out the percentages of each constituent.
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Mr Cyan
3
Registered: 09/27/08
Posts: 626
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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: CptnGarden]
#9180000 - 11/03/08 09:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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It is awesome to know a member of our community has discovered a new family member of the psilocybin genera!
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Subbedhunter420
Solitary Hunter



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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: Mr Cyan]
#9180848 - 11/04/08 12:19 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well, they are quite strong. I have yet to take a whole 8th but one gram does me good for 5 hours. Alteredstates took an 8th and was so scared of the coming anxiety and the force of the trip that he made himself vomit in my backyard.
Workman- I will try my best to perform some microscopy on them. My microscope should work.
Curecat- Of course I would love to come back up this winter! I plan on it for that weekend. I will try and see if Alteredstates can go also, he really is intent on it also after hearing my crazy time.
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haymaker
Mr Psychonaut




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This is an awesome thread, it's great to see positive work coming from this community 
especially in such a wonderfull genus
-------------------- "Make hay while the sun shines" My Trade List
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Quankus
keep a dreamjournal


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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: haymaker]
#9182140 - 11/04/08 11:22 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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those are some meaty looking mushrooms. do you have more than one patch or just that one? and these are in southern california!? great photos too.
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CyanoFriscosa
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Subbedhunter420
Solitary Hunter



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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: Quankus]
#9183236 - 11/04/08 03:39 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes, Southern California. Three separate patches have been found. They were all within 20 miles of one another.
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hoopershroomer
Bonafide Oneironaut



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New species found in SC? 
I'm excited to see what these are going to be called!
Good shit Subbed, good shit
-------------------- "Life lived in the absence of the psychedelic experience that primordial shamanism is based on is life trivialized, life denied, life enslaved to the ego." "You teach the world how to treat you, by showing the world how you treat yourself." A well developed sense of humor is far superior to any religion" "Everything you could want and could be, you already have and are."
&
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sprout70
Loving, Learning, and Growing


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overjoyed and giddy! makes me wonder how many psilocybes could be lurking around in any state, wether it is a new sp. or an out of range sp., both possibilities are good news. right on Subbedhunter420. sorry about Alteredstates, i hope he still had a good expeirience after vomiting. it's been a while since i've eaten an eighth, usually just take a gram and a half, but need to go further soon
-------------------- Ain't talkin', just walkin'Through the world mysterious and vague Heart burnin', still yearnin' Walkin' through the cities of the plague. Well, the whole world is filled with speculation The whole wide world which people say is round They will tear your mind away from contemplation They will jump on your misfortune when you're down Ain't talkin', just walkin' Eatin' hog eyed grease in a hog eyed town. Heart burnin', still yearnin' Some day you'll be glad to have me around. B.Dylan
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Brainiac
Rogue Scientist



Registered: 04/29/06
Posts: 13,259
Loc: 與您的女朋
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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: sprout70]
#9184329 - 11/04/08 06:55 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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--------------------
Fair is Fair
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Mikael


Registered: 07/30/08
Posts: 905
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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: Brainiac]
#9187375 - 11/05/08 05:59 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Congrats Subbedhunter420, great finding!
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shroomgatherer
Connoisseur of the finer things



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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: Mikael]
#9187511 - 11/05/08 07:25 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Nice work Subbedhunter420 Keep on it and then some of this
-------------------- "Let us declare nature to be legitimate. All plants should be declared legal, and all animals for that matter. The notion of illegal plants and animals is obnoxious and ridiculous."
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asimmons
New Hunter



Registered: 10/26/08
Posts: 106
Loc: London, UK
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Yeah, thats amazing that you found a new species
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CureCat
Strangest


Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 14,058
Loc: clawing your furniture
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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: asimmons]
#9193077 - 11/06/08 01:06 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
asimmons said: Yeah, thats amazing that you found a new species
What is amazing is finding a potent wood-loving Psilocybe in Southern California!
Finding new species is really common in mycology. It happens all the time. Often times new species are looked over or dismissed as a similar, better known species.
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asimmons
New Hunter



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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
#9193673 - 11/06/08 05:58 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Oh, really, I guess my n00bness shows through, ha I want to find a new species
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weiliiiiiii
Stranger


Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 9,711
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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: asimmons]
#9193717 - 11/06/08 06:27 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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dont we all?
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asimmons
New Hunter



Registered: 10/26/08
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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: weiliiiiiii]
#9193738 - 11/06/08 06:50 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah, I suppose so, If you found a new Psilocybe species what would you call it ?
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weiliiiiiii
Stranger


Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 9,711
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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: asimmons]
#9193766 - 11/06/08 07:10 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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i already have a name picked out, its one of my kids names in latin
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Subbedhunter420
Solitary Hunter



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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: weiliiiiiii]
#9197778 - 11/06/08 07:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Alteredstates and I within the next several hours will present the name. It will be latin. We are cooking new agar for dishes as we speak and will be working on it all through the night.
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Brainiac
Rogue Scientist



Registered: 04/29/06
Posts: 13,259
Loc: 與您的女朋
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Latin name ?
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Fair is Fair
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Subbedhunter420
Solitary Hunter



Registered: 12/30/06
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Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: Brainiac]
#9198233 - 11/06/08 08:55 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ok.
Alteredstates and I have decided for the moment on
"Psilocybe Meridianus"
Which means "Southern" and "of the noon". Cuz its always sunny here.
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector


Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Quote:
Subbedhunter420 said: Ok.
Alteredstates and I have decided for the moment on
"Psilocybe Meridianus"
Which means "Southern" and "of the noon". Cuz its always sunny here.
Very nice. I was waiting for it. I am naming a mushroom I found too. Look for it in my new thread.
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wisp

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 5,304
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Great work guys, I'm impressed at your dedication for working on this species.
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hoopershroomer
Bonafide Oneironaut



Registered: 03/30/06
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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: wisp]
#9199932 - 11/07/08 01:24 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Fucking excellent work gentleman. You guys should be proud of yourselves. Great job 
-------------------- "Life lived in the absence of the psychedelic experience that primordial shamanism is based on is life trivialized, life denied, life enslaved to the ego." "You teach the world how to treat you, by showing the world how you treat yourself." A well developed sense of humor is far superior to any religion" "Everything you could want and could be, you already have and are."
&
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asdf512tx
diggchan


Registered: 08/28/08
Posts: 326
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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wow this is awesome, good find
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alteredstates
Psilosilly


Registered: 03/25/08
Posts: 198
Loc: PNW
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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: asdf512tx]
#9206743 - 11/08/08 11:28 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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there is something that is bothering me about the original find and the second find.
the gills in the first find are going upward, but then almost sharply reverse and go downward as they get closer to the stalk. the ones in the second find are attached but not quite the same. it could just be a different phenotype, im not sure.
first find



also note the annuli from the villa (first find). they are far more distinct, appearing on almost every mushroom and they are all blueing. almost the opposite is true for the second find, the annuli are far less apparent and only a few are blueing. the blueing could simply be a difference in potency, but the difference in the amount of annuli i belive was pretty consistent.

second find
note gills, and less distinct annuli.
the gills could also just stretch out as the mushroom matures. Subbedhunter, do you have any shots of younger gills from the second find?
regardless, i think there is a lot more work to be done.
-------------------- Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds.
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Subbedhunter420
Solitary Hunter



Registered: 12/30/06
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Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
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This one is from the second patch. The annuli are quite visible and the gills are basically the same. Just slightly more mature fruits than the ones at patch 1. I believe it is merely the phenotype that makes it more distinct.
I will work on some microscopy today or tomorrow to find differences in the cytsidia. I think that will help a lot.
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nightflyer



Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
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On the first picture, the gills are attached to the stipe.
[image]http:// [/image]
On the second picture, the gills are NOT attached to the stipe. [image]http:// [/image]
Start a culture on the same agar plate and watch if they merge or not.
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inski
Cortinariologist



Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,720
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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: nightflyer]
#9210263 - 11/09/08 02:23 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think they are the same species, quite often as the fruit body matures the attached gills can separate from the stipe giving them the appearance of being seceding or not attached, I have seen this many times with quite a few different Psilocybe species! This also highlights the importance of examining fungi at all stages of growth when it comes to identification! Great find guys, it may not be the only woodloving Psilocybe species that forms sclerotia, I will keep you informed! inski..
Edited by inski (11/09/08 02:29 AM)
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Subbedhunter420
Solitary Hunter



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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: inski]
#9214784 - 11/09/08 09:50 PM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Like I said previously, Pic #1 is of a very young specimen growing about 20 miles inland and the second is of mature specimens a couple hundred feet from the ocean.
Every characteristic is the same. I have seen the traits match up except the attached and unattached gills which seems to be common with psilocybes according to Inski within certain species. I hope we can now bury the idea that these are two different species and agree that they are one and the same.
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N2loma
Foaming Pipe Snake



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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: asimmons]
#9216469 - 11/10/08 05:46 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Awesome find!
-------------------- "So can you tell me what exactly does freedom mean/ If I'm not free to be as twisted as I wanna be" -Divide by Disturbed Good Guitars Don't Cry
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venomx
psi·lo·cy·bin


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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: N2loma]
#9216596 - 11/10/08 07:17 AM (15 years, 2 months ago) |
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Congratulations to you and alteredstates!
Looking forward to seeing more documentation on the species.
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weiliiiiiii
Stranger


Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 9,711
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Quote:
Subbedhunter420 said: Like I said previously, Pic #1 is of a very young specimen growing about 20 miles inland and the second is of mature specimens a couple hundred feet from the ocean.
Every characteristic is the same. I have seen the traits match up except the attached and unattached gills which seems to be common with psilocybes according to Inski within certain species. I hope we can now bury the idea that these are two different species and agree that they are one and the same.
I agree with you, i think they are the same.
weilii take on many forms, so many that within one patch there will be 3-5 different forms.
with the weilii it was all about the substrate, grass patches produce fruits that are almost all identical but woodland/pine straw patches produce fruits that vary incredibly.
maybe thats whats going on with your find, you said one was closer to the ocean than the other so maybe theres something to that.
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist


Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,266
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Quote:
Ok.
Alteredstates and I have decided for the moment on
"Psilocybe Meridianus"
Which means "Southern" and "of the noon". Cuz its always sunny here.
FYI,
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/9663079/an/0/page/0
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CureCat
Strangest


Registered: 04/19/06
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Loc: clawing your furniture
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What are the chances!
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Razoom
In true believer.



Registered: 09/21/08
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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
#9672283 - 01/24/09 05:38 PM (15 years, 6 days ago) |
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It weiliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii..... And they smell also is delicious?
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inski
Cortinariologist



Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,720
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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
#9674495 - 01/25/09 03:07 AM (15 years, 5 days ago) |
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Quite a coincidence, I'm sure Subbedhunter420 can come up with another name! inski..
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Subbedhunter420
Solitary Hunter



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Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: inski]
#9676477 - 01/25/09 01:28 PM (15 years, 5 days ago) |
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Alteredstates and I did some brainstorming last night. We will continue to find another name that will suit the mushroom. Embody its personalty!
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alteredstates
Psilosilly


Registered: 03/25/08
Posts: 198
Loc: PNW
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Post deleted by alteredstatesReason for deletion: jumping the gun
-------------------- Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds.
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BlimeyGrimey
Collector of Spores




Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 3,787
Loc: Puget Sound
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Remember that if this species is described by someone else before you publish something then your name won't stick. If I was you I would write up the description and save the naming for last. That way you can be sure that the name you pick is the one that you want the mushroom to be known as officially. Plus, if you don't make the name official through a respected journal then the name you pick could be invalidated like the first name. Write that description and submit it for peer review.
-------------------- Message me for free microscopy services on Psilocybe, Panaeolus, and Gymnopilus species. Looking for wild Panaeolus cinctulus and Panaeolus olivaceus prints.
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alteredstates
Psilosilly


Registered: 03/25/08
Posts: 198
Loc: PNW
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Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
#9679618 - 01/25/09 09:32 PM (15 years, 4 days ago) |
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Description of wood-loving Southern California Psilocybe species Probably section Stuntzae
Cap -2-8cm broad -Mostly convex, often becoming broadly umbonate or uplifted with age. Sometimes wavy. Rarely plane. -Smooth surface. May be somewhat viscid and translucent when wet. -Color varies: typically dark when young (brownish), but may also be light (dull yellow/orange/brown). With age the color fades and is typically a light yellowish brown(?) (sometimes almost to a cream), often retaining a darker brownish margin. pallid. -Sometimes staining blue or blue-green.
Gills -Adnate. -Light, pallid, becoming yellow-brownish. -Close to crowded.
Stalk -3-6cm long -4-8mm thick -Most often equal or tapering upward, sometimes tapering down. -White to very light brown. -Often staining blue. -Annulus present, often completely blue.
Spores -Light purple.
On agar -Blues almost down to the hyphal level. -Forms scleriota.
Habitat -Southern California- So far it has been found in Ventura and Los Angeles Counties. -This is a warm weather species. I have found it fruiting from 70 to 95 degrees Fahrenheit. -It likes a wide range of wood (alder, conifer, eucalyptus, and several other types I have given it). -Fruits in wood chip beds, mostly near/under plant or bush. -It is Gregarious, often densely clustered. -Its season is fairly long, from 4 to 6 months (April- late September/early October).
Note color

Note beauty 

note lighter color

note viscidity

note annulus

note abnormally light pins

There has been no proper microscopy on this species yet. The following are some pictures from Alan Rockefeller. Alan, if you have measurements on the spores, Cheilocystidia, and Pleurocystidia, I would definitely like to know.
Spores

Cheilocystidia

Pleurocystidia

Please let me know what else I should put into the description.
-------------------- Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds.
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inski
Cortinariologist



Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,720
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: alteredstates]
#9680071 - 01/25/09 10:52 PM (15 years, 4 days ago) |
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Thats a good description alteredstates, but your paper will need to be a lot more detailed if you want it to be reviewed, like this one that Alan posted! Psilocybe meridionalis info inski.
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alteredstates
Psilosilly


Registered: 03/25/08
Posts: 198
Loc: PNW
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: inski]
#9680139 - 01/25/09 11:03 PM (15 years, 4 days ago) |
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I see, in that case, I have a lot more work to do. Thanks a bunch for the advice.
-------------------- Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds.
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inski
Cortinariologist



Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,720
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: alteredstates]
#9680179 - 01/25/09 11:10 PM (15 years, 4 days ago) |
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You will need to work with a mycologist if you want to name this species, someone who can write the latin prologue! inski..
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alteredstates
Psilosilly


Registered: 03/25/08
Posts: 198
Loc: PNW
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: inski]
#9680187 - 01/25/09 11:13 PM (15 years, 4 days ago) |
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Gotcha. That is definately something I need to learn. Who on this website is an actual mycologist?
-------------------- Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds.
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inski
Cortinariologist



Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,720
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: alteredstates]
#9680196 - 01/25/09 11:16 PM (15 years, 4 days ago) |
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You need to work with someone like Dr. Guzman. inski..
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alteredstates
Psilosilly


Registered: 03/25/08
Posts: 198
Loc: PNW
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: inski]
#9680221 - 01/25/09 11:22 PM (15 years, 4 days ago) |
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Do you know how to contact Dr. Guzman or someone like him?
-------------------- Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds.
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inski
Cortinariologist



Registered: 02/28/06
Posts: 5,720
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: alteredstates]
#9680225 - 01/25/09 11:24 PM (15 years, 4 days ago) |
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Maybe Alan can help you!
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alteredstates
Psilosilly


Registered: 03/25/08
Posts: 198
Loc: PNW
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: inski]
#9680240 - 01/25/09 11:28 PM (15 years, 4 days ago) |
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Thanks inksi.
-------------------- Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds.
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cactu
culture and magic



Registered: 03/06/06
Posts: 3,913
Loc: mexicoelcentrodelconocimi...
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: alteredstates]
#9682209 - 01/26/09 12:37 PM (15 years, 4 days ago) |
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Dr. Gaston Guzman Emeritus Research and Head of the Fungus Collection of Instituto de Ecologia P.O. Box 63 Xalapa, Veracruz 91070, Mexico
email: gaston.guzman [at] inecol.edu.mx
good luck . if you need more help let me know her doughter is in very close to where i live like 30 minutes away.
edit: modified email address to avoid spam
--------------------
  cuando una rafaga del pensamiento nos pasa al lado se puede sentir que valio la pena haber vivido, y cuando ese pensamiento se convierte en sueño no paramos de soñar hasta realizarlo
Edited by Alan Rockefeller (01/26/09 01:35 PM)
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alteredstates
Psilosilly


Registered: 03/25/08
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: cactu]
#9683018 - 01/26/09 02:46 PM (15 years, 4 days ago) |
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Thank you all, I have already received an email back from Dr. Guzman. Hopefully things can get underway very soon.
-------------------- Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds.
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Strophariaceae
mycologist



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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: alteredstates]
#10201275 - 04/20/09 12:06 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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I missed this thread some months back when it was going on. Has anybody heard back from Guzmán on this?
Has anybody established whether or not this is the same thing that has been going under the name Psilocybe subaeruginascens (sensu Guzmán) in northern Cal (and the Seattle area)?
I've actually done extensive microcopic work on this, and a couple of type studies establishing solidly that the "P. subaeruginascens" from the Bay Area, Seattle, and Japan (and likely these Southern Cal ones) are not P. subaeruginascens or P. aeruginomaculans as originally described by Höhnel from Java. (They are likely not even in the same section of Psilocybe, in fact.) I'm less willing to call the small differences between populations as species level differences, at least without a lot more taxonomic work. Its also too early to tell whether the North American and Japanese populations are different species – neither I nor anyone else I know of has had access to both North American and Japanese material so as to be able to compare (the type collections kept by Hongo are an utter loss, BTW), but based on pictures I've seen of the spores and of mushrooms themselves, they certainly look roughly the same.
BTW, does anybody actually have any myco contacts in Japan? I believe May-June is "P. subaeruginascns" season there and I'd love to get some material.
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nightflyer



Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Strophariaceae]
#10202064 - 04/20/09 02:44 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Hi Stroph
Last year I started cultures of both species:
Psilocybe subaeruginascens (from San Francisco, auweia collection) [image]http:// [/image]
Psilocybe "meridianus" from Ventura County, southern California (subbedhunter collection) [image]http:// [/image]
In my opinion two different species.
Edited by nightflyer (04/21/09 09:07 AM)
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector


Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Strophariaceae]
#10204522 - 04/20/09 10:45 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Strophariaceae said:
BTW, does anybody actually have any myco contacts in Japan?
Shroomery member, kablamo moved there last month and requests have been made.
Good luck.
--------------------
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Strophariaceae
mycologist



Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 109
Loc: Marvelous Marin County, C...
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10204837 - 04/20/09 11:44 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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"In my opinion two different species. "
Based on culture characteristics? I guess I'm just not seeing the same thing you are from those plates.
However, I guess what I'm particularly skeptical of is its identification with the P. meridionalis that Guzmán published last year:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9663079#9663079
First, the ecotypes are very different – you're talking about a woodchip species, while Guzmán described a species from highland forests of Mexico. There are a number of active Psilocybe from that habitat, but to the best of my knowledge, none of them cross over habitat-wise onto woodchip beds in the US.
Also, has anybody even looked at the microscopy of the southern Cal species? That level of alpha taxonomy absolutely needs to be done before you can say anything definitive about what group it falls into. (In fact, I'd go so far as to say that when dealing with closely-related species, microscopy will provide a lot more info more quickly than simple molecular methods will – I think you'd probably need a really large multi-gene sample to resolve Psilocybe in the same section definitively.) Based on my reading of Guzman's monograph and my own knowledge of the northern Cal population, a quick look at the pleurocystidia would tell you whether you're dealing with something closer to the Northern Cal species or closer to P. meridionalis.
Edited by Strophariaceae (04/20/09 11:45 PM)
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nightflyer



Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Strophariaceae]
#10204892 - 04/21/09 12:00 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well, there is a simple test to verify if those are different species: The compatibility test. If they don't merge on the agar plate, but form a barrier, the they are different species for sure. Another characteristic: Psilocybe subaeruginascens (from San Francisco) grows fast and aggressive. The species from Ventura County grows extremely slow. Both on 2% MEA, pH 4.5
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Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector


Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Strophariaceae]
#10204905 - 04/21/09 12:05 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Strophariaceae said: (In fact, I'd go so far as to say that when dealing with closely-related species, microscopy will provide a lot more info more quickly than simple molecular methods will � I think you'd probably need a really large multi-gene sample to resolve Psilocybe in the same section definitively.) Based on my reading of Guzman's monograph and my own knowledge of the northern Cal population, a quick look at the pleurocystidia would tell you whether you're dealing with something closer to the Northern Cal species or closer to P. meridionalis.
While you're at it, you might explain the so-far-unexplained here. Which genes are chosen for sequencing and why? I think a lot of us are waiting for entire genome data but that seems a long ways away. For now, a solid answer to my question would be quite informative.
And you're welcome for the link.
--------------------
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Strophariaceae
mycologist



Registered: 02/02/04
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Loc: Marvelous Marin County, C...
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: nightflyer]
#10204985 - 04/21/09 12:30 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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"In my opinion two different species. "
Based on what? Culture characteristics?
Also, Quote:
nightflyer said: Well, there is a simple test to verify if those are different species: The compatibility test. If they don't merge on the agar plate, but form a barrier, the they are different species for sure.
I'm not clear if you're saying this is an experiment you've done? If so, did you actually use single spore isolates where there would be mating-strain compatibility, or did you simply confront two dikaryon cultures? If so, the two may have excluded each other because the two are different genets (genetic individuals) within the same species, and so the two are still not going to merge colonies.
Also, keep in mind that the biological species concept developed for vertebrates doesn't necessarily apply to fungi. If you did mating-compatible monokaryon crosses and the two barrage out each other, then yes, you have different species.
The reverse, however, isn't true. If the two do mate, they may still not really be the same species. There are species that are separated by continental distances and millions of years of evolutionary time, but put mating strains together on a plate and they'll cross.
Closely related fungi are notorious for this – Czech mycologist Jan Brovika reports full mating compatibility between P. cyanescens and P. azurescens, for example.
Quote:
Another characteristic: Psilocybe subaeruginascens (from San Francisco) grows fast and aggressive. The species from Ventura County grows extremely slow. Both on 2% MEA, pH 4.5
Interesting. I'm not sure if I'd call that in itself a species-level difference, but its certainly evidence in that direction.
Did you ever send any collections to Workman?
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nightflyer



Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Strophariaceae]
#10204994 - 04/21/09 12:33 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Strophariaceae said: In fact, I'd go so far as to say that when dealing with closely-related species, microscopy will provide a lot more info more quickly than simple molecular methods will
Microscopy is useless if both species exhibit the same microscopic characteristics (Pleurocystidia, Cheilocystidia etc.)
Example: Psilocybe azurescens and Psilocybe cyanescens. Microscopically indistinguishable, but on the agar plate they form a clear-cut barrier.
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Strophariaceae
mycologist



Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 109
Loc: Marvelous Marin County, C...
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10205050 - 04/21/09 12:46 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thanks, of course, for the link to the Japan thread. I'll definitely post there in the next few days.
I'm not entirely sure of the rationale behind which genes are chosen, but I know the gold standard seems to be a mixture of genes like ITS and LSU that are neutral in regards to natural selection (change is entirely a product of genetic drift) and protein-coding genes, which might be responding to environmental selection.
Another reason one would want to sample from multiple genes is to cancel out the effects of potential horizontal gene transfer. Horizontal gene transfer is rare in higher eukaryotes, but it does happen. Hence, there are certain genes that will place oomycete species smack in the middle of the ascomycetes. A larger sampling of the genome shows them to be very distantly related within Eukaryota. It has been shown, however, that the oomycetes have acquired certain fungal genes, and this, along with convergent natural selection, is a factor in making this algal-derived group so fungus-like.
Also, choice of genes has to do with what level of taxonomy you're dealing with. The molecular clock for some genes is very slow, while in others its very rapid. When you're looking at a broad phylogeny, say, the Eukaryota as a whole, you're going to want to use slowly evolving genes. If you're looking at closely-related species, like say the different species of Psilocybe section Stuntzae, then you want to sample from some rapidly evolving genes. If you're doing within-species population genetics work, then you want to sample from genes that are polymorphic within the species, and look at them in terms of classical Mendelian gene frequencies.
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nightflyer



Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: nightflyer]
#10205062 - 04/21/09 12:53 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well, what is the issue here? I think it's microscopy or genetics. For a long time microscopy was the basis of taxonomy. But now there are more and more disputes between geneticists and mycologists. What should be the basis? Microscopy or genetics?
Here you find some informations about Psilocybe subaeruginascens (Höhnel) RNA sequencing.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/29467726?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Sequence.Sequence_ResultsPanel.Sequence_RVDocSum
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Strophariaceae
mycologist



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Loc: Marvelous Marin County, C...
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: nightflyer]
#10205072 - 04/21/09 12:55 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
nightflyer said: Microscopy is useless if both species exhibit the same microscopic characteristics (Pleurocystidia, Cheilocystidia etc.)
Example: Psilocybe azurescens and Psilocybe cyanescens. Microscopically indistinguishable, but on the agar plate they form a clear-cut barrier.
Yes, but in many cases, one doesn't even know what they're dealing with based solely on macro-level identification. And within section Stuntzae there are a few clear microscopic differences between P. meridionalis versus P. "subaeruginascens" versus P. stuntzii.
As I asked before, has anybody (Workman? Guzman?) looked at these microscopically? I'd be happy to do this, BTW, but I don't want to jump all over anybody else's work if its being done.
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nightflyer



Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Strophariaceae]
#10205105 - 04/21/09 01:04 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Strophariaceae said:
As I asked before, has anybody (Workman? Guzman?) looked at these microscopically? I'd be happy to do this, BTW, but I don't want to jump all over anybody else's work if its being done.
As far as I know, Alan Rockefeller has posted last year some (spore) photographs of that species from Ventura county.
I will try to find the posts.
Edited by nightflyer (04/21/09 01:16 AM)
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CureCat
Strangest


Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 14,058
Loc: clawing your furniture
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: nightflyer]
#10205128 - 04/21/09 01:12 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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It's not a question of either or.
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nightflyer



Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
#10205160 - 04/21/09 01:22 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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That's my opinion, too.
But mycologists and geneticists live on different planets.
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CureCat
Strangest


Registered: 04/19/06
Posts: 14,058
Loc: clawing your furniture
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Strophariaceae]
#10205185 - 04/21/09 01:30 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Strophariaceae said: As I asked before, has anybody (Workman? Guzman?) looked at these microscopically? I'd be happy to do this, BTW, but I don't want to jump all over anybody else's work if its being done.
Yup. You really need to look at Workman's gallery. I've linked ya to it a bunch of times.
http://www.sporeworksgallery.com/California-collections/Alan_Rockefeller_CA_specimen_001 *This collection is actually one originally found and transplanted from Golden Gate Park, SF, to Oakland. The "collector" wishes to remain anonymous, but these were from his patch. I picked and dried them out. I gave them to Alan to give to Workman.
It should also be noted that this is the same biological organism (transplant) as these that I collected in Marin County: http://mushroomobserver.org/6772
http://www.sporeworksgallery.com/California-collections/auweia_subaeruginascens *Auweia collection.
http://www.sporeworksgallery.com/California-collections/SanFran_azurelike_redone011707 *This was a Waylitjim collection from San Francisco.
These may all be different..
--------------------
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CureCat
Strangest


Registered: 04/19/06
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Loc: clawing your furniture
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: nightflyer]
#10205190 - 04/21/09 01:31 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
nightflyer said: But mycologists and geneticists live on different planets. 
Good mycologists are geneticists.
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nightflyer



Registered: 08/08/08
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Loc: Central Europe
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species *DELETED* [Re: CureCat]
#10205255 - 04/21/09 01:52 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Post deleted by nightflyerReason for deletion: changed post
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CureCat
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: nightflyer]
#10205260 - 04/21/09 01:54 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm on my own planet. I don't get many visitors.
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nightflyer



Registered: 08/08/08
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
#10205293 - 04/21/09 02:08 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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The problem: Many (elder) mycologists are not willing to deal with genetics.
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CureCat
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: nightflyer]
#10205323 - 04/21/09 02:26 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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I haven't met too many "elderly" mycologists...
The mycologists I have met all rely on cladistics. It is integral to their research.
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nightflyer



Registered: 08/08/08
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
#10205346 - 04/21/09 02:37 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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99% of the taxonomic work here on the shroomery are based on the classical microscopic characteristics like Spores, Pleurocystidia etc.
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CureCat
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: nightflyer]
#10205355 - 04/21/09 02:41 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
nightflyer said: 99% of the taxonomic work here on the shroomery are based on the classical microscopic characteristics like Spores, Pleurocystidia etc.
Yes...? I don't see what you're getting at.
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CureCat
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: nightflyer]
#10205366 - 04/21/09 02:54 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well... Here is part of a Mycology Lab. Most of the equipment in the images is used for genetic sequencing.
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nightflyer



Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
#10205381 - 04/21/09 03:08 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Edited by nightflyer (04/21/09 03:13 AM)
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Strophariaceae
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
#10205457 - 04/21/09 04:16 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
CureCat said: It's not a question of either or.
Literally took the words right off my fingertips.
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Strophariaceae
mycologist



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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
#10205468 - 04/21/09 04:23 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Strophariaceae said: As I asked before, has anybody (Workman? Guzman?) looked at these microscopically? I'd be happy to do this, BTW, but I don't want to jump all over anybody else's work if its being done.
Yup. You really need to look at Workman's gallery. I've linked ya to it a bunch of times.
I mean, microscopy of the SoCal species (more than just the spores, preferably). There's nothing like that at Workman's gallery, or anywhere else I've seen.
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Strophariaceae
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: nightflyer]
#10205474 - 04/21/09 04:27 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
nightflyer said: 99% of the taxonomic work here on the shroomery are based on the classical microscopic characteristics like Spores, Pleurocystidia etc.
Because almost all Shroomery posters are amateurs (in the best sense), not academics.
A good microscope – $500 on eBay. Anybody priced a sequencer recently?
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CureCat
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Strophariaceae]
#10205504 - 04/21/09 04:45 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
nightflyer said: Beautiful. But where are the results?
Scientific Journals mostly. The actual sequence is not usually published, but the results are referenced and kept on file for future studies.
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nightflyer said: I miss posts of RNA sequencing work on the shroomery.
I've posted some. I don't really see the relevance though, since few people on here know how to use that information or they don't have access to the technology.
Also, when you use sites like Genbank to make sense of your results, it does not automatically enter your sequence into the database. You'll notice that all those sequences you linked to have corresponding authors and articles. I really wish the database automatically incorporated sequences, but I can also see some obstacles if that were the case.
Quote:
Strophariaceae said: I mean, microscopy of the SoCal species (more than just the spores, preferably). There's nothing like that at Workman's gallery, or anywhere else I've seen.
Oooh, okay sorry. I don't know. I bet it is on Workman's to do list. Alan may have looked at it. PM subbedhunter if you want to look at it.
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CureCat
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Strophariaceae]
#10205515 - 04/21/09 04:57 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Strophariaceae said: Anybody priced a sequencer recently?
Hehehe. There are one or two outdated models that are collecting dust at that lab, but without all of the other equipment (there is a LOT of other equipment) it is really useless. Other local labs don't really have use for them, and they are massive and really heavy, so it would cost a lot to send one anywhere.
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nightflyer



Registered: 08/08/08
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
#10205562 - 04/21/09 05:43 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
CureCat said: You'll notice that all those sequences you linked to have corresponding authors and articles. I really wish the database automatically incorporated sequences, but I can also see some obstacles if that were the case.
That's true. Those are only basic informations. You have to look at the original papers to get all informations. At our university, as a member, you have online access to more than 10'000 journals and it's allowed to print the content. That's our site: http://www.ethbib.ethz.ch/zs_e.html
And let me clear up something else: I don't know how this is ruled in the USA, but when you are studying mycology in Europe, you are NOT a geneticist for sure. If you want to become a geneticist, you have to study first molecular biology and then you have to specialize. The fact that somebody is able to operate a sequencer and read a sequence does not mean that he is a geneticist.
Edited by nightflyer (04/21/09 05:56 AM)
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CureCat
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: nightflyer]
#10205576 - 04/21/09 05:56 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't mean that a Mycologist has any official title as a Geneticist. I mean that Mycologists, Botanists, and Microbiologists do most, if not all of the work on fungal genetics- not just any Geneticists.
So I guess I'm not sure what you intended in saying that "mycologists and geneticists live on different planets"? I thought you meant that Mycologists disregard genetics.
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nightflyer



Registered: 08/08/08
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
#10205589 - 04/21/09 06:05 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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I have made the experience, that some mycologists (at least in my country) have negative sentiments and prejudices against the use of genetics in mushroom taxonomy. I have no prejudices.
Edited by nightflyer (04/21/09 07:32 AM)
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nightflyer



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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Strophariaceae]
#10205731 - 04/21/09 07:29 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
As I asked before, has anybody (Workman? Guzman?) looked at these microscopically? I'd be happy to do this, BTW, but I don't want to jump all over anybody else's work if its being done.
Here are the pics from Alan Rockefeller posted in Subbedhunter's thread:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8552924#8552924
Edited by nightflyer (04/21/09 08:21 AM)
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Strophariaceae]
#10206242 - 04/21/09 10:22 AM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Also, keep in mind that the biological species concept developed for vertebrates doesn't necessarily apply to fungi. If you did mating-compatible monokaryon crosses and the two barrage out each other, then yes, you have different species.
The reverse, however, isn't true. If the two do mate, they may still not really be the same species. There are species that are separated by continental distances and millions of years of evolutionary time, but put mating strains together on a plate and they'll cross.
Closely related fungi are notorious for this – Czech mycologist Jan Brovika reports full mating compatibility between P. cyanescens and P. azurescens, for example.
What are you suggesting here, phylogenetic species concept? What has been the reigning paradigm within mycology? To my understanding Brovika's research implies a complex rather than a fully marked species delineation.
You're welcome, again, for the link. We've sorely needed a contact from Japan for some time now.
Quote:
I'm not entirely sure of the rationale behind which genes are chosen, but I know the gold standard seems to be a mixture of genes like ITS and LSU that are neutral in regards to natural selection (change is entirely a product of genetic drift) and protein-coding genes, which might be responding to environmental selection.
The rationale is precisely the information I am looking for. If you know of resources or a direction I might take please post it. I'm sure you know they have been using 16s rRNA in prokaryotes because they are conserved. However this is under reevaluation due to suspected HGT. As a result the phylogenetic tree might be remade, again. I wouldn't want that to happen within mycology.
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Another reason one would want to sample from multiple genes is to cancel out the effects of potential horizontal gene transfer. Horizontal gene transfer is rare in higher eukaryotes, but it does happen. Hence, there are certain genes that will place oomycete species smack in the middle of the ascomycetes. A larger sampling of the genome shows them to be very distantly related within Eukaryota. It has been shown, however, that the oomycetes have acquired certain fungal genes, and this, along with convergent natural selection, is a factor in making this algal-derived group so fungus-like.
This was a point I made in some evolution thread(s) cactu made. A wealth of information, however, in my view, philosophically flawed. Fungal HGT seems suspect to me. What kind of transference are we talking here, transformation, transduction, what? Moreover, this is precisely why I would wait until entire genomes were sequenced before I embarked on the remaking of fungal taxonomy, including new names.
Quote:
Also, choice of genes has to do with what level of taxonomy you're dealing with. The molecular clock for some genes is very slow, while in others its very rapid. When you're looking at a broad phylogeny, say, the Eukaryota as a whole, you're going to want to use slowly evolving genes. If you're looking at closely-related species, like say the different species of Psilocybe section Stuntzae, then you want to sample from some rapidly evolving genes. If you're doing within-species population genetics work, then you want to sample from genes that are polymorphic within the species, and look at them in terms of classical Mendelian gene frequencies.
Kudos for the lesson in phylogenetic interpretation. I feel I should point out the obvious at this point. We're doing more here than having a conversation. We're creating a database (or at least that's my motive). As you know the Shroomery is the most popular website/message board for mushrooms on the Internet. As such, we have a grave responsibility to disseminate correct information which is, and will become, a valuable resource for many amateur students of mycology. It's a way to "get the word out."
Having said that I think it's important to explain my view. I'm not a fan of phylogeny or cladistics because they require too much interpretation and extrapolation of the facts. I'm an empiricist. I want to check morphology, macro and micro, chemical reactions and use genetic sequencing for direct data as compared against the specimens and groups found within those paradigms. These markers are ironclad and immovable. They do not require a historical reconstruction of putative events that will never have the certitude of a morphological form combined with an entire genome's sequence.
The fossil record and the genes of fungus are sparse. Reconstructing their taxonomy on that basis seems like a fool's game, however affiliated with academia it may be.
Cheers, MM
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Edited by Mr. Mushrooms (04/21/09 10:28 AM)
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Strophariaceae
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10206794 - 04/21/09 12:05 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Small but important point – genomics (the use of molecular DNA techniques) is not quite the same as genetics, though of course they overlap. Lots of fields (most of biology by now, really) use genomics, but genetics is a specialty.
Phylogenetics (which is comes from the work "phylogeny" rather than "gene") really isn't genetics per se, either – neither the classical Mendelian kind nor population genetics. In genetics, one looks at markers and traits that are polymorphic within a population or interacting populations. Of course, a few sophisticated folks do both population genetics and phylogenetics as a way of getting a handle on speciation.
Example – Tom Bruns makes heavy use of genomics, but I would not consider him to be a geneticist. (John Taylor might fit that description, though.)
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Strophariaceae]
#10207023 - 04/21/09 12:48 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Salient and specific. Nevertheless, what we can hold in our hand or produce from a sequencer is static. The interpretation of the data is something else.
Again, this is the rationale is precisely the information I am looking for. If you know of resources or a direction I might take please post it. Does this mean you do not know of a resource where I might glean the reasoning behind ITS or LSU? That information would be invaluable from a taxonomic point of view.
Thank you for the explication.
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BlimeyGrimey
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10207565 - 04/21/09 02:29 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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ITS sequences mutate quickly, right?
-------------------- Message me for free microscopy services on Psilocybe, Panaeolus, and Gymnopilus species. Looking for wild Panaeolus cinctulus and Panaeolus olivaceus prints.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
#10207757 - 04/21/09 02:56 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well, given the fact that Guzman's daughter, and others like Else, are using them as they are, it would be axiomatic to think so. However, I have no idea whether they are or aren't. That is another reason for my request.
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BlimeyGrimey
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10210820 - 04/21/09 10:33 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Sequence comparison of the ITS region is widely used in taxonomy and molecular phylogeny because it a) is (due to the high copy number of rRNA genes) easy to amplify even from small quantities of DNA, and b) has a high degree of variation even between closely related species. This can be explained by the relatively low evolutionary pressure acting on such non-functional sequences"
"The ITS region is now perhaps the most widely sequenced DNA region in fungi. It has typically been most useful for molecular systematics at the species level, and even within species (e.g., to identify geographic races). Because of its higher degree of variation than other genic regions of rDNA (for small- and large-subunit rRNA), variation among individual rDNA repeats can sometimes be observed within both the ITS and IGS regions. In addition to the standard ITS1+ITS4 primers used by most labs, several taxon-specific primers have been described that allow selective amplification of fungal sequences (e.g., see Gardes & Bruns 1993 paper describing amplification of basidiomycete ITS sequences from mycorrhiza samples). ITS region is nowadays being used to know the genetic diversity among different strains of bacteria by sequencing the ITS gene."
Source : Internal transcribed spacer - Wikipedia
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
#10211105 - 04/21/09 11:28 PM (14 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thanks. If the variation rate is that high there must be a delineation as to what constitutes the species level. Perhaps Gardes & Bruns paper will provide a clue.
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psilocybin_qualm
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Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
#10262282 - 04/30/09 12:33 PM (14 years, 8 months ago) |
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Any further advancements on this
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Subbedhunter420
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True name discovered, long process.. i know [Re: Subbedhunter420]
#14752731 - 07/11/11 05:59 PM (12 years, 6 months ago) |
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Hello everyone, I apologize for digging up these old threads, but I would like to acknowledge Alteredstates and my own findings of this supposed species to actually be Psilocybe Ovoideocystidiata. I just want to confirm it, and I was not sure if everyone was aware of this update. Thanks to Alan Rockefeller for analyzing our samples.
-thank you, and apologies- Subbedhunter420
p.s. I have a wikipedia article about myself now. haha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Subbedhunter420
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