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Invisiblenightflyer
Male


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
Re: New Psilocybe species [Re: Subbedhunter420]
    #9210248 - 11/09/08 02:13 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

On the first picture, the gills are attached to the stipe.

[image]http://[/image]

On the second picture, the gills are NOT attached to the stipe.
[image]http://[/image]


Start a culture on the same agar plate and watch if they merge or not.


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PSILOCYBE  CYANOFRISCOSA - EUROPE 2009



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11179100


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Invisiblenightflyer
Male


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Strophariaceae]
    #10202064 - 04/20/09 02:44 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Hi Stroph

Last year I started cultures of both species:

Psilocybe subaeruginascens (from San Francisco, auweia collection)
[image]http://[/image]




Psilocybe "meridianus" from Ventura County, southern California (subbedhunter collection)
[image]http://[/image]


In my opinion two different species.


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PSILOCYBE  CYANOFRISCOSA - EUROPE 2009



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11179100


Edited by nightflyer (04/21/09 09:07 AM)


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Invisiblenightflyer
Male


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Strophariaceae]
    #10204892 - 04/21/09 12:00 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Well, there is a simple test to verify if those are different species:
The compatibility test. If they don't  merge on the agar plate, but
form a barrier, the they are different species for sure.
Another characteristic: Psilocybe subaeruginascens (from San Francisco)
grows fast and aggressive. The species from Ventura County grows
extremely slow. Both on 2% MEA, pH 4.5


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PSILOCYBE  CYANOFRISCOSA - EUROPE 2009



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11179100


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Invisiblenightflyer
Male


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Strophariaceae]
    #10204994 - 04/21/09 12:33 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Strophariaceae said:
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that when dealing with closely-related species, microscopy will provide a lot more info more quickly than simple molecular methods will




Microscopy is useless if both species exhibit the same
microscopic characteristics (Pleurocystidia, Cheilocystidia etc.)

Example:  Psilocybe azurescens and Psilocybe cyanescens.
Microscopically indistinguishable, but on the agar plate
they form a clear-cut barrier.


--------------------
PSILOCYBE  CYANOFRISCOSA - EUROPE 2009



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11179100


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Invisiblenightflyer
Male


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: nightflyer]
    #10205062 - 04/21/09 12:53 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Well, what is the issue here?
I think it's microscopy or genetics.
For a long time microscopy was the basis of taxonomy.
But now there are more and more disputes between geneticists
and mycologists. What should be the basis?
Microscopy or genetics?

Here you find some informations about
Psilocybe subaeruginascens (Höhnel) RNA sequencing.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/29467726?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Sequence.Sequence_ResultsPanel.Sequence_RVDocSum


--------------------
PSILOCYBE  CYANOFRISCOSA - EUROPE 2009



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11179100


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Invisiblenightflyer
Male


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Strophariaceae]
    #10205105 - 04/21/09 01:04 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Strophariaceae said:

As I asked before, has anybody (Workman? Guzman?) looked at these microscopically? I'd be happy to do this, BTW, but I don't want to jump all over anybody else's work if its being done.




As far as I know,  Alan Rockefeller has posted last year
some (spore) photographs of that species from Ventura county.

I will try to find the posts.


--------------------
PSILOCYBE  CYANOFRISCOSA - EUROPE 2009



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11179100


Edited by nightflyer (04/21/09 01:16 AM)


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Invisiblenightflyer
Male


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
    #10205160 - 04/21/09 01:22 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

That's my opinion, too.

But mycologists and geneticists live on different planets.  :wink:


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PSILOCYBE  CYANOFRISCOSA - EUROPE 2009



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11179100


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Invisiblenightflyer
Male


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
Re: Description for new Psilocybe species *DELETED* [Re: CureCat]
    #10205255 - 04/21/09 01:52 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by nightflyer

Reason for deletion: changed post



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PSILOCYBE  CYANOFRISCOSA - EUROPE 2009



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11179100


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Invisiblenightflyer
Male


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
    #10205293 - 04/21/09 02:08 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

The problem:
Many (elder) mycologists are not willing
to deal with genetics.


--------------------
PSILOCYBE  CYANOFRISCOSA - EUROPE 2009



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11179100


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Invisiblenightflyer
Male


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
    #10205346 - 04/21/09 02:37 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

99% of the taxonomic work here on the shroomery
are based on the classical  microscopic characteristics
like Spores, Pleurocystidia etc.


--------------------
PSILOCYBE  CYANOFRISCOSA - EUROPE 2009



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11179100


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Invisiblenightflyer
Male


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
    #10205381 - 04/21/09 03:08 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Beautiful. But where are the results?

I miss posts of RNA sequencing work on the shroomery.

Like this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/7798680?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Sequence.Sequence_ResultsPanel.Sequence_RVDocSum


--------------------
PSILOCYBE  CYANOFRISCOSA - EUROPE 2009



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11179100


Edited by nightflyer (04/21/09 03:13 AM)


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Invisiblenightflyer
Male


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
    #10205562 - 04/21/09 05:43 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

CureCat said: You'll notice that all those sequences you linked to have corresponding authors and articles.  I really wish the database automatically incorporated sequences, but I can also see some obstacles if that were the case.







That's true. Those are only basic informations.
You have to look at the original papers to get
all informations. At our university, as a member,
you have online access to more than 10'000 journals and it's allowed
to print the content.
That's our site:
http://www.ethbib.ethz.ch/zs_e.html


And let me clear up something else:
I don't know how this is ruled in the USA,
but when you are studying mycology in Europe,
you are NOT a geneticist for sure. If you want to become
a geneticist, you have to study first molecular biology
and then you have to specialize.
The fact that somebody is able to operate
a sequencer and read a sequence does not
mean that he is a geneticist.


--------------------
PSILOCYBE  CYANOFRISCOSA - EUROPE 2009



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11179100


Edited by nightflyer (04/21/09 05:56 AM)


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Invisiblenightflyer
Male


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: CureCat]
    #10205589 - 04/21/09 06:05 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I have made the experience, that some mycologists (at least in my country)
have negative sentiments and prejudices against the use of genetics in mushroom
taxonomy. I have no prejudices.


--------------------
PSILOCYBE  CYANOFRISCOSA - EUROPE 2009



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11179100


Edited by nightflyer (04/21/09 07:32 AM)


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Invisiblenightflyer
Male


Registered: 08/08/08
Posts: 392
Loc: Central Europe
Re: Description for new Psilocybe species [Re: Strophariaceae]
    #10205731 - 04/21/09 07:29 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:



As I asked before, has anybody (Workman? Guzman?) looked at these microscopically? I'd be happy to do this, BTW, but I don't want to jump all over anybody else's work if its being done.




Here are the pics from Alan Rockefeller
posted in Subbedhunter's thread:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8552924#8552924


--------------------
PSILOCYBE  CYANOFRISCOSA - EUROPE 2009



http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/11179100


Edited by nightflyer (04/21/09 08:21 AM)


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