Home | Community | Message Board

Mycohaus
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Capsules   MagicBag.co Certified Organic All-In-One Grow Bags by Magic Bag   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9  [ show all ]
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst
    #9172282 - 11/02/08 12:40 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Group 1:

They are certain they are right/saved/special and will be more than happy to tell you so.

I shall assume they partake of mushrooms and/or cannabis else they would likely not be on this site.


Group 2:

Their fellow Christians outside The Shroomery also are certain they are right/saved/special and will be more than happy to tell you so.


Most non-Shroomery 'born-agains' believe that partaking of mushrooms and/or cannabis is evil/sinful/immoral.


Thus Group 1 is at odds with Group 2 and yet both are totally right and both have interpreted the Bible's stance on this 'correctly'.

And of course, Group 1 Christians will fail to mention in their Bible study/Church group/congregation/family gatherings that mushrooms and cannabis are not evil and allowed by The Bible. They will live by their creed and come out 'of the closet' - NOT!

Christ on a stick.


--------------------

Edited by OrgoneConclusion (11/02/08 11:57 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9172315 - 11/02/08 12:47 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

As long as you ask Jesus for forgiveness, you can do whatever you want and still get into heaven! Pretty sweet, eh?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9172637 - 11/02/08 02:07 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Group 1:

They are certain they are right/saved/special and will be more thna happy to tell you so.

I shall assume they partake of mushrooms and/or cannabis else they would likely not be on this site.


Group 2:

Their fellow Christians outside The Shroomery also are certain they are right/saved/special and will be more thna happy to tell you so.


Most non-Shroomery 'born-agains' believe that partaking of mushrooms and/or cannabis is evil/sinful/immoral.


Thus Group 1 is at odds with Group 2 and yet both are totally right and both have interpreted the Bible's stance on this 'correctly'.

And of course, Group 1 Christians will fail to mention in their Bible study/Church group/congregation/family gatherings that mushrooms and cannabis are not evil and allowed by The Bible. They will live by their creed and come out 'of the closet' - NOT!

Christ on a stick.



Prior to my conversion I used mushrooms about 80-90 times in 6-7 grams at a time.  Since being converted my use has ceased.  When someone is born again they have a new nature, further shroom use does not gain anything to them.  I have never used cannabis at any time, before or after conversion.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Female User Gallery


Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 15 days
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: fivepointer]
    #9172840 - 11/02/08 02:54 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

When someone is born again they have a new nature, further shroom use does not gain anything to them.




I hear you... during the short time I thought I was a christian, it was very hard for me to have fun. It must suck not to be able to enjoy life with it's pleasures anymore. :frown:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
Loc: On the Border
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9172853 - 11/02/08 02:56 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I never decided to be a Chrisatian because I liked having fun. Christian party=church...yuck.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9173281 - 11/02/08 04:28 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Group 1:

They are certain they are right/saved/special and will be more thna happy to tell you so.






everyone thinks they are right, whether they think nobody can be right, everyone is right, or only their belief is right. it's still their opinion.

and please don't try and limit this to Christians. I see people fighting tooth-and-nail to protect their beliefs on this forum all the time, no matter what they are defending.

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I shall assume they partake of mushrooms and/or cannabis else they would likely not be on this site.





yes, you are assuming here. maybe they come to talk with drug users who are hopefully open minded, or maybe they used to use drugs and respect  and relate to people here. I myself fit into the second category, actually both but the first category seems to be losing plausibility because of threads like these..

read my sig for why Christians still sin. it's a perfect explanation. the Bible is quite clear no one can live perfectly, save for Christ..

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Most non-Shroomery 'born-agains' believe that partaking of mushrooms and/or cannabis is evil/sinful/immoral.

Thus Group 1 is at odds with Group 2 and yet both are totally right and both have interpreted the Bible's stance on this 'correctly'.





the New Testament talks against "pharmakeia", commonly translated as sorcery, but as you can see from the root, it is talking about drugs. lots of Christians don't know this because they can't read Greek and the somewhat misleading translation we have - keep in mind thought that this does not make the Bible any less true, just points out the ignorance of most people who don't take the time to learn the languages the original texts were written in :strokebeard:


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9173497 - 11/02/08 05:20 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Sorcery (low-magick) or shamanism, has always employed plants, therefore the Greek root rightly identifies both. It took quite a while, historically, for herbalists and wise-woen (and men) for their gifts to be looked at as healing and medicinal, not as malevolent witchcraft and sorcery to be feared and persecuted. Of course, there ARE malevolent practices today, even among Haitian bocors, (sorcerers) to name one cultural example with which I am somewhat familiar. Read The Serpent and the Rainbow. I knew a man who was purged to death by a Haitian houngan (medicine man) who was attempting to expel the 'snakes and toads' that was causing his AIDS. He puked and shit himself to death in 24 hours.

In Haiti, the Catholics are so syncretized with Voudun that only Bible-banging Protestant Christians are regarded as the real deal. Spells are not attempted on these people because they are afraid of 'instant karma.'

There seems to be a purpose for everything. Point-Counterpoint.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleArden
לנשום

Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 7,666
Loc: Α & Ω Flag
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #9174076 - 11/02/08 07:20 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

everyone thinks they are right, whether they think nobody can be right, everyone is right, or only their belief is right. it's still their opinion.

and please don't try and limit this to Christians. I see people fighting tooth-and-nail to protect their beliefs on this forum all the time, no matter what they are defending.




No one is disputing the fact it is all opinion.

As for fighting tooth-and-nail to protect their beliefs, you're right as far as that involves all humans protecting their ego or status. But with Christians (born again, never born, always alive, whatever), they differ in that so many of them obnoxiously insist on flaunting such beliefs and taking an aim at proselytizing the uninitiated at any given moment. This becomes increasingly annoying when such messiness continually occurs in philosophical forums or adult conversations--when it has tirelessly been addressed over and over.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJawofmalak
Friendly Stranger

Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 443
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Arden]
    #9174539 - 11/02/08 08:53 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

You do realize that the definition of pharmakeia would prohibit you from using normal medicines right? Pharmakeia is where we get words like Pharmacy from. And let's say that mushrooms where pharmakeia, wouldn't that make alcohol also pharmakeia? you see the one thing that Christians don't want to give up is their precious alcohol. They'll talk about the "evils" of marijuana, and then turn around and drink the blood of Christ. Yet what they don't realize is that alcohol is as hard drug and as addicting as heroin and cocaine.


--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Arden]
    #9174865 - 11/02/08 09:51 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Arden said:
But with Christians (born again, never born, always alive, whatever), they differ in that so many of them obnoxiously insist on flaunting such beliefs and taking an aim at proselytizing the uninitiated at any given moment.




The OP was referring to Shroomerites.. I don't see any of them obnoxiously flaunting their beliefs more than anyone else here :shrug:

In fact, the OP is the one obnoxiously flaunting his illogical generalization about Christians  :lol:

Edited by myriadeyes (11/02/08 10:18 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Jawofmalak]
    #9174923 - 11/02/08 10:06 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Did you just google it and deduce that? A simple definition cannot express the pregnancy of a word in context. What matters is why you are using the drug, not the use itself - for example if you are trying to communicate with the dead or form your own opinions about God through your relative drug experiences.

Revelation 18:23
"For by thy sorceries were all nations decieved"

It's not talking about aspirin here...

Ask Markos, he seems to know a lot about the subject.

Just because Christians get drunk doesn't mean the Bible condones it. It actually speaks against it time and time again.


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Edited by myriadeyes (11/02/08 10:23 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleblewmeanie
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc: Flag
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9175391 - 11/02/08 11:38 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Quote:

Arden said:
But with Christians (born again, never born, always alive, whatever), they differ in that so many of them obnoxiously insist on flaunting such beliefs and taking an aim at proselytizing the uninitiated at any given moment.




The OP was referring to Shroomerites.. I don't see any of them obnoxiously flaunting their beliefs more than anyone else here :shrug:

In fact, the OP is the one obnoxiously flaunting his illogical generalization about Christians  :lol: 




OC's logic seemed pretty sound to me. Care to explain what I am overlooking?


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJawofmalak
Friendly Stranger

Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 443
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9176110 - 11/03/08 05:40 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not talking about how some Christians like to get drunk,  I was talking about communion. Alcohol is a part of Christian religious rites. That's why they stand it and condemn everything else. Because the bible gives it a green light, and everything else is "pharmakia".


--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9178410 - 11/03/08 04:16 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Group 1:

They are certain they are right/saved/special and will be more than happy to tell you so.

I shall assume they partake of mushrooms and/or cannabis else they would likely not be on this site.


Group 2:

Their fellow Christians outside The Shroomery also are certain they are right/saved/special and will be more than happy to tell you so.


Most non-Shroomery 'born-agains' believe that partaking of mushrooms and/or cannabis is evil/sinful/immoral.


Thus Group 1 is at odds with Group 2 and yet both are totally right and both have interpreted the Bible's stance on this 'correctly'.

And of course, Group 1 Christians will fail to mention in their Bible study/Church group/congregation/family gatherings that mushrooms and cannabis are not evil and allowed by The Bible. They will live by their creed and come out 'of the closet' - NOT!

Christ on a stick.




Well if they're not the worst they certainly are the most gullible.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Jawofmalak]
    #9183793 - 11/04/08 05:25 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Jawofmalak said:
I'm not talking about how some Christians like to get drunk,  I was talking about communion. Alcohol is a part of Christian religious rites. That's why they stand it and condemn everything else. Because the bible gives it a green light, and everything else is "pharmakia".




You are thinking of Catholicism not Christianity. In all 4 accounts of the first communion they drink the fruit of the vine, never specified to be alcohol..


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9183799 - 11/04/08 05:27 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Well they didn't have pasteurization back then, so it must have been wine.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: DieCommie]
    #9183816 - 11/04/08 05:31 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

...why? you couldn't just squeeze some juice out??


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9183879 - 11/04/08 05:43 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

It naturally turns to wine.  There was no grape juice until pasteurization.  All grape juice we drink has been pasteurized to prevent fermentation.  So unless they had communion out in the field with grapes freshly squeezed, it was wine.

(I dont know how I always derail the philosophy with science... sorry)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleblewmeanie
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc: Flag
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: DieCommie]
    #9183983 - 11/04/08 06:05 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

logic will just get you into trouble around here


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinefalcon
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,032
Last seen: 4 hours, 38 minutes
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: DieCommie]
    #9184263 - 11/04/08 06:47 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
It naturally turns to wine.  There was no grape juice until pasteurization.  All grape juice we drink has been pasteurized to prevent fermentation.  So unless they had communion out in the field with grapes freshly squeezed, it was wine.

(I dont know how I always derail the philosophy with science... sorry)




It takes a couple of days  until you get a good fermentation going in grape juice, even at ideal temps for fermentation, so they wouldn't have had to drink it in the fields, there would be a couple of days when you could drink it. If you juiced the grapes and kept the the juice cool, like under 60 degrees you probably would have been able to have juice for at least a week if not longer.

I'm not sure about the Middle East, but in the Roman Empire, wine was not drunk straight, it was added to water, at about like 3 or 4 parts water to wine. Interestingly, 3% alcohol solution will kill any known human bacterial pathogens.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKupo
Kupop!


Registered: 08/07/08
Posts: 2,112
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: falcon]
    #9184600 - 11/04/08 07:34 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

JESUS WAS A DUDE WHO KNEW WHAT WAS UP, THE END.
Buddha knew what was up, too.
As did Krishna.
as did (insert name here)

Now it's up to you to know what's up!

Fun isn't it?:discorex:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: DieCommie]
    #9184890 - 11/04/08 08:12 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I knew it could ferment on it's own, I just thought it took a while if you didn't purposely add yeast. If you're right, then your science debunks my "philosophy" :shrug:

It certainly could have been wine. What I don't know is why all 4 times they refer to it as "fruit of the vine" when the term wine is consistently used throughout the Bible.

Quote:

Jawofmalak said:
I'm not talking about how some Christians like to get drunk,  I was talking about communion. Alcohol is a part of Christian religious rites. That's why they stand it and condemn everything else. Because the bible gives it a green light, and everything else is "pharmakia".




I just acknowledged that all drugs aren't pharmakeia.. Aspririn, tums, etc. Of course everyone knows a glass of wine is supposed to be healthy too. It was also much safer than water back then. I still hold to drugs being sinful by the context of their use - with alcohol, if your trying to escape reality or whatever, that's probably not good.

You could make that same argument for the positive benefits of other drugs also and they may likely be plausible arguments, but the Bible also says to obey the laws of the land, so I guess that's where I have to draw the line, regardless of whether using the drugs is actually wrong or not..I would definitely agree that smoking pot helped me to be more sympathetic towards others - actually that goes for acid and ecstasy as well haha..I know people who (it appears) effectively deal with serious anger issues by tokin a bowl..so I don't know if I believe they should all be considered "evil" in and of themselves.


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9185041 - 11/04/08 08:33 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

It does bother me though that Christians in America think that this is a Christian nation where all others should adhere to their moral code. This clearly goes against the Bible, which teaches that we are to live from the heart, and not strictly by law. If laws are imposed on someone who doesn't agree with them and would break them if there was no punishment, according to the Bible, they are no better of a person for living by them.

It's unfortunate Christians think it is their duty to stop other people from sinning. As long as it doesn't impede upon another's freedoms, we have no right democratically or religiously to stop others from using drugs or gays from getting married. Just as America doesn't need to be the world police, Christians need to stop trying to be the moral police. The Bible doesn't teach this..


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 30 days
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9185224 - 11/04/08 09:04 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Equally, do you think that skeptics would share their drugular~ ventures with all of the other skeptics that don't partake,
or are they stuck in that closet with the closet drug taking Christians....?

It has less to do with "evil", and more to do with those activities being against the laws of the land and not wanting to get in trouble....    :shrug:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJawofmalak
Friendly Stranger

Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 443
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9185784 - 11/04/08 10:15 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
I knew it could ferment on it's own, I just thought it took a while if you didn't purposely add yeast. If you're right, then your science debunks my "philosophy" :shrug:

It certainly could have been wine. What I don't know is why all 4 times they refer to it as "fruit of the vine" when the term wine is consistently used throughout the Bible.

Quote:

Jawofmalak said:
I'm not talking about how some Christians like to get drunk,  I was talking about communion. Alcohol is a part of Christian religious rites. That's why they stand it and condemn everything else. Because the bible gives it a green light, and everything else is "pharmakia".




I just acknowledged that all drugs aren't pharmakeia.. Aspririn, tums, etc. Of course everyone knows a glass of wine is supposed to be healthy too. It was also much safer than water back then. I still hold to drugs being sinful by the context of their use - with alcohol, if your trying to escape reality or whatever, that's probably not good.

You could make that same argument for the positive benefits of other drugs also and they may likely be plausible arguments, but the Bible also says to obey the laws of the land, so I guess that's where I have to draw the line, regardless of whether using the drugs is actually wrong or not..I would definitely agree that smoking pot helped me to be more sympathetic towards others - actually that goes for acid and ecstasy as well haha..I know people who (it appears) effectively deal with serious anger issues by tokin a bowl..so I don't know if I believe they should all be considered "evil" in and of themselves.




Well with the right amounts, cough syrup becomes a very powerful drug. Shit fucks you up. But i understand where your coming from, as I myself used to be like you. I was studying under a Pastor to one day be a Pastor myself. I was a fundamentalist Southern Baptist Christian. I know the bible.

But when you start studying it deeper 9the torah) your going to start seeing some things you didn't notice before. I'm know your thinking "that was done away with", but go back and read it with an open mind. "I have not come to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it." What does that mean? The Torah was and forever will be binding to all believers. And when you accept that, you'll notice that all the "laws" of the bible, are nothing more than arbitrary rules that have no meaning outside of themselves. The hard addictive drug known as alcohol is ok, but the soft not addictive non fatal drug  marijuana is not.

When you break out of that mold, you'll start to ee things a little different. Those things that where once "sinful" will prove to be nothing more than personal choices, or even beneficial. I know, because I used to hate gay people. I wanted the US to adopt a law where stoning could be brought back. But after i left that mind set, i saw gays for what they where, just people like you and me. And then i thought to myself, "How coudl the great Creator, who made everything around us in infinite detail ever care is a man on a speck of dust of a planet loved another man? Would that single act cause the Creator so much anger that he'd wish that creation dead? Do gays not experience true love? How could God be against true love?" Think about that.


--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #9186057 - 11/04/08 10:51 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Equally, do you think that skeptics would share their drugular~ ventures with all of the other skeptics that don't partake,
or are they stuck in that closet with the closet drug taking Christians....?




You went for the drugular vein with that question.

Sometimes I do; sometimes I don't.

But here is the BIG diff:

Both Group1 and Group2 Christians are happy to specifically tell you what you is moral and immoral and will do their best to get you to comply - through force if necessary.

My stance is do what ever you want; worship as you want; as long as you do not step on my toes or endanger me or try to limit my rights to what I want when I am not affecting someone else. Leave my private life alone!

Live and let live. Pursuit of happiness and all that.


--------------------

Edited by OrgoneConclusion (11/05/08 12:15 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9187926 - 11/05/08 09:46 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

My stance is do what ever you want; worship as you want; as long as you do not step on my toes or endanger me or try to limit my rights to what I want when I am not affecting someone else. Leave my private life alone!

This ruins it for all true believers. They need to force everyone to believe or they might have to face doubt. You would be a constant reminder that not everyone believes what they believe.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleblewmeanie
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc: Flag
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Icelander]
    #9187965 - 11/05/08 09:54 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I had to walk through a minefield of men in ugly suits handing out bibles on campus just to get to work today. Fucking modern day conquistadors......:mad2:


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKupo
Kupop!


Registered: 08/07/08
Posts: 2,112
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Icelander]
    #9188679 - 11/05/08 12:15 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
My stance is do what ever you want; worship as you want; as long as you do not step on my toes or endanger me or try to limit my rights to what I want when I am not affecting someone else. Leave my private life alone!

This ruins it for all true believers. They need to force everyone to believe or they might have to face doubt. You would be a constant reminder that not everyone believes what they believe.




This is true, but no believer is going to ever admit that.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Kupo]
    #9188729 - 11/05/08 12:22 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Almost no believer. I once was a believer. I was very young of course and I'm using that as my excuse. Then there was the LSD also.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9188730 - 11/05/08 12:23 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Print up some of your own pamphlets.

If they are Mormons, give them a handout on how 120 innocent pioneers were slaughtered in 1857 at the behest of Mormon leaders.

If they are Catholic, give them a handout on how anywhere from 50,000 to 2,000,000 innocents (mostly women)were murdered during the Spanish Inquistion or how the Church protected pedophile priests.

Do appropriate research for other groups. Most older religions have blood and other atrocities on their hands.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Kupo]
    #9188749 - 11/05/08 12:25 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Now Ice believes in Carlos Castaneda and can come up with many excuses for the man's foibles and fictions.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9188779 - 11/05/08 12:29 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Print up some of your own pamphlets.

If they are Mormons, give them a handout on how 120 innocent pioneers were slaughtered in 1857 at the behest of Mormon leaders.

If they are Catholic, give them a handout on how anywhere from 50,000 to 2,000,000 innocents (mostly women)were murdered during the Spanish Inquistion or how the Church protected pedophile priests.

Do appropriate research for other groups. Most older religions have blood and other atrocities on their hands.




American colonists were responsible for the death of millions of Native Americans through the spread of infectious diseases, war, and violence.  Does this mean we shouldn't be Americans?

If you want a truly compelling argument against Mormonism or Catholicism, please find modern-day examples of bloodshed in their name.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9188807 - 11/05/08 12:33 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Now Ice believes in Carlos Castaneda and can come up with many excuses for the man's foibles and fictions.




Incorrect as usual. (amazing how you can be consistently wrong on this) I don't believe in anyone but Veritas. I don't even know if CC ever existed. I do however find much of value in the books supposedly written by him. I say value because some of it has been effective in me getting what I want out of life.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: deCypher]
    #9188814 - 11/05/08 12:34 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Print up some of your own pamphlets.

If they are Mormons, give them a handout on how 120 innocent pioneers were slaughtered in 1857 at the behest of Mormon leaders.

If they are Catholic, give them a handout on how anywhere from 50,000 to 2,000,000 innocents (mostly women)were murdered during the Spanish Inquistion or how the Church protected pedophile priests.

Do appropriate research for other groups. Most older religions have blood and other atrocities on their hands.




American colonists were responsible for the death of millions of Native Americans through the spread of infectious diseases, war, and violence.  Does this mean we shouldn't be Americans?

If you want a truly compelling argument against Mormonism or Catholicism, please find modern-day examples of bloodshed in their name.




Guess you missed this how the Church protected pedophile priests. This is very current.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Icelander]
    #9188822 - 11/05/08 12:36 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

America has consistently covered up CIA covert operations in foreign countries, Presidential scandals, and clandestine deals, all of which have been recent events and are probably going on even right now.

If anything, these have caused more pain and suffering than the paltry few priests that have been sheltered by the Church.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: deCypher]
    #9188832 - 11/05/08 12:38 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I'd say it's about equal and I'd also say they were and are deeply in bed with each other.:doggystyle:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Icelander]
    #9188837 - 11/05/08 12:39 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

America and the Catholic church?

Why was the only Catholic president we've ever had shot then?  :tongue:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: deCypher]
    #9188847 - 11/05/08 12:41 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Religion in general dude.

Hey did you hear how the CC encouraged the new prez to work for world peace. That's rich IMO.:monkeydance:

I doubt Kennedy was shot because he was Catholic.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: deCypher]
    #9188850 - 11/05/08 12:42 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Does this mean we shouldn't be Americans?



Yes.

Quote:

If you want a truly compelling argument against Mormonism or Catholicism, please find modern-day examples of bloodshed in their name.



How recent is acceptable?

As their prohet's teachings are older than their group's crimes, perhaps we should disregard those old books and demand a more recent prophet.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9188865 - 11/05/08 12:45 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps you should take his place...

How are your Jesus beard and robes lookin'?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Icelander]
    #9188873 - 11/05/08 12:47 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Incorrect as usual.



I was right once, dammit! :hissyfit:

Quote:

I say value because some of it has been effective in me getting what I want out of life.



Pick & choose brother. You always gloss over all of the fun metaphysical stuff.

Be honest now, how many interdimensional allies do you have?

Ever used you tonal to jump off a 100 foot cliff?

Ever bilocate to get more work done?

Nope.


OK, let's get mundane. Have you erased your personal history?

Nope.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9188924 - 11/05/08 12:57 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Incorrect as usual.



I was right once, dammit! :hissyfit:

Quote:

I say value because some of it has been effective in me getting what I want out of life.



Pick & choose brother. You always gloss over all of the fun metaphysical stuff.

Be honest now, how many interdimensional allies do you have?

Ever used you tonal to jump off a 100 foot cliff?

Ever bilocate to get more work done?

Nope.


OK, let's get mundane. Have you erased your personal history?

Nope.




Wrong again. (this eventually gets old) I have stated in other posts that I don't believe everything he wrote or think all of it was real. I just took certain principles from the books (which I could have found elsewhere) and applied them to the best of my abilities and got results dependent on how good my abilities and motivation were.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Icelander]
    #9188940 - 11/05/08 12:59 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Even if most of his books were hoaxes, I must say that his Ally information for Datura is pretty spot-on.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: deCypher]
    #9189009 - 11/05/08 01:15 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

CC inspired two generations of young people to really fuck themselves up on datura and require hospitalization.

Can't ask much more than that from an author. :nono:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9189015 - 11/05/08 01:15 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Are you arguing for the censorship of information in the interest of public safety?

:nonono:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9189090 - 11/05/08 01:31 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
CC inspired two generations of young people to really fuck themselves up on datura and require hospitalization.

Can't ask much more than that from an author. :nono:




I doubt many people who read the books actually took datura. :lol: You sure make dramatic statements, but IMO they don't reflect the actual situation too accurately.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 30 days
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9191215 - 11/05/08 07:59 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Sometimes I do; sometimes I don't.
.
But here is the BIG diff:
.
Both Group1 and Group2 Christians are happy to specifically tell you what you is moral and immoral and will do their best to get you to comply - through force if necessary.
.
My stance is do what ever you want; worship as you want; as long as you do not step on my toes or endanger me or try to limit my rights to what I want when I am not affecting someone else. Leave my private life alone!
.
Live and let live. Pursuit of happiness and all that.




I concur with your stance and what you have spelled out here as the way things should be....   
And like you, sometimes I confide my activities with others, sometimes I don't (mostly don't with anyone)....
Obviously, once you find out the other person partakes, a gate of communication opens....   

I have also confided with SOME straight friends, and ironically, most of those are family and friends, and happen to be of a Christian faith....
When it turns into a righteous "you shouldn't do that, it was not the lord's plan" (for example), I tell them to find me where it says so in the Bible....
I haven't gotten any passages pointed my way, to date....

Then, I offer them an education on the stuff I know, and the stuff they are interested in knowing....
Not trying to "convert" them mind you, but getting past the BS misinformation that is commonly known by all....
All of them know of my back problems and struggles, and a certain green herb helps quite a bit, and I tell em'....
And it is further being accepted by more and more people as more and more states are voting for it's legalization for medical use....
It is a step in the right direction....


I honestly don't think of it as a religious battle as much as it is one of the law, and the propaganda and wrongful information that the media spews....    :shrug:
The only way to get past that is to inform objectively with the correct information, sometimes strategically with baby steps....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleblewmeanie
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc: Flag
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #9191289 - 11/05/08 08:15 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:


I have also confided with SOME straight friends, and ironically, most of those are family and friends, and happen to be of a Christian faith....
When it turns into a righteous "you shouldn't do that, it was not the lord's plan" (for example), I tell them to find me where it says so in the Bible....
I haven't gotten any passages pointed my way, to date....





Mat 27:34  "They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink."


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 30 days
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9191443 - 11/05/08 08:44 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

And said that no one should drink of this, or just chose not to himself....?

(what is vinegar mingled with gall....?)


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleblewmeanie
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc: Flag
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #9191485 - 11/05/08 08:48 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Gall, or myrrh (I probably spelled that wrong) is used throughout the bible to represent some form of mind altering substance. Some scholars believe it was an opiate.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleblewmeanie
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc: Flag
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9191543 - 11/05/08 08:58 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Galatians 5:16 
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these : fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties, 21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



From what I understand the term "sorcery" here, and else where comes from the greek word pharmakeia. However the meaning of the word is pretty vague. :shrug:


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 30 days
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9191559 - 11/05/08 09:01 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

That passage doesn't say that it is bad, or not to do it, it just says that "he" chose not to drink the unknown substance....
(maybe it tasted bad - most alkaloids do....?)

There are helluva~ lot of psychoactive substances, so the question would come up as to where the line would be drawn...?
Sugar....?    Aspirin....?    Opium....?  Caffeine....?    Wine.....?    Meth....?
Some would say that any one of these are safe and/or dangerous depending upon usage - but none of the are "needed" to live....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleblewmeanie
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc: Flag
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #9191569 - 11/05/08 09:03 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I draw the line at air.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 30 days
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9191630 - 11/05/08 09:15 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.




I would say that "drunkenness" is more on point, damn good thing I don't drink....!    :tongue:

Sorcery is vague though, as alchemy could have also been considered "sorcery" without the use of psychoactives back then....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9194259 - 11/06/08 09:30 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

But I say, walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

yeah let everyone do this. :thumbup:

Of course the outcome is the end of the human race. :thumbup:


Gotta love that deep thought in the bible.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKupo
Kupop!


Registered: 08/07/08
Posts: 2,112
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Icelander]
    #9194574 - 11/06/08 10:31 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Does anyone know how many different versions of the bible there are? I'm curious.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleGreen_T
 User Gallery


Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 4,042
Loc: UK Flag
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Kupo]
    #9194798 - 11/06/08 11:21 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Probably zillions. Things have been taken out and put in and such, lost in translation etc. There are so many denominations of the Christian faith it really makes me wonder how each reads the same book differently and claims their interpretation is right...


--------------------

"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineKupo
Kupop!


Registered: 08/07/08
Posts: 2,112
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Green_T]
    #9194891 - 11/06/08 11:41 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I believe there is a basic underlying message that it is trying to get across. Everyone that has translated/added/removed seem to want to make the game harder.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleGreen_T
 User Gallery


Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 4,042
Loc: UK Flag
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Kupo]
    #9194985 - 11/06/08 11:56 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

QFT. I also think that 'underlying message' is present in most religions.


--------------------

"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJCoke
dream observer
Male


Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 1,229
Loc: maryland Flag
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9434050 - 12/15/08 12:01 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Group 1:

They are certain they are right/saved/special and will be more than happy to tell you so.

I shall assume they partake of mushrooms and/or cannabis else they would likely not be on this site.


Group 2:

Their fellow Christians outside The Shroomery also are certain they are right/saved/special and will be more than happy to tell you so.


Most non-Shroomery 'born-agains' believe that partaking of mushrooms and/or cannabis is evil/sinful/immoral.


Thus Group 1 is at odds with Group 2 and yet both are totally right and both have interpreted the Bible's stance on this 'correctly'.

And of course, Group 1 Christians will fail to mention in their Bible study/Church group/congregation/family gatherings that mushrooms and cannabis are not evil and allowed by The Bible. They will live by their creed and come out 'of the closet' - NOT!

Christ on a stick.




I see truth in this.


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineC.M. Mann
subconscious explorer
Male


Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 899
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: fivepointer]
    #9434891 - 12/15/08 03:31 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I normally don't feel comfortable communicating with members of your group, because I try to approach ideas with logic. I don't know if you realize it but drugs were widely used before, during, and after the time of Jesus. Jesus himself probably had several drug experiences, and there is nothing in the bible that says that I can't smoke reefer.  Jesus taught us to let him preach, and for us to listen and be good neighbors.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #9435294 - 12/15/08 07:30 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Why is The Bible true? Because?


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemushroom people
I ♥ LSD
Male


Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 406
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9435447 - 12/15/08 08:36 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:

They are certain they are right/saved/special and will be more than happy to tell you so.






So you think this only happens with born agains?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJCoke
dream observer
Male


Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 1,229
Loc: maryland Flag
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Bernackums]
    #9436257 - 12/15/08 11:52 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Bernackums said:
Why is The Bible true? Because?




because the christ said so, and what the christ said is true to the believer because he said so.


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

Edited by JCoke (12/15/08 11:54 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemushroom people
I ♥ LSD
Male


Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 406
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: JCoke]
    #9436506 - 12/15/08 12:37 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

The Christ was dead 350+ years before the Bible came to be. I don't think he said any such thing.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: mushroom people]
    #9437439 - 12/15/08 03:09 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

The Old Testament was around before Jesus Christ, sir. But all I'm saying is I hear alot of people reference The Bible as if it is equivilant to truth (probably due to a religious up bringing) without questioning to themselves why that is.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Kupo]
    #9437661 - 12/15/08 03:39 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mrspirit2 said:
Does anyone know how many different versions of the bible there are? I'm curious.




http://kjv.us/genesis/1.htm

Click on the 3-letter abbreviations at the top to get an idea. The original Hebrew of the Tenach (OT) and the biblical Greek (without punctuation, capitalization - which determines meanings) are still the original languages.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCultosaurus
Aspiring Psychonaught
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/28/08
Posts: 239
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 20 days
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9440684 - 12/15/08 10:53 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

mrspirit2 said:
Does anyone know how many different versions of the bible there are? I'm curious.




many, hundreds, depending on how far back you go into history. The bible as it is today was originally deemed 'The Bible' in 325 at some gathering held by the emperor Constantine. He is alleged to have converted to Christianity. He did. On his deathbed about 10 years later. He was a follower of Mithras. He kept the forgiveness of his sins till the last, because he knew that he was going to keep doing things that he would only have to confess at the end. Over 160 Gospels existed at the time and only 4 were allowed in.

Quote:

Bernackums said:
Why is The Bible true? Because?




Here's an interesting wrinkle. I might suggest a book by Tom Harpur who wrote the book The Pagan Christ.

Interesting theory. I believe him.

Christ never existed. His was a story taken from many others, primarily the Egyptian stories of Horus, Isis and Osiris. Everything that happened to Horus, happened to Jesus. It's like a bad movie remake. When you look at the actual words, the sentences are either exact copies or very close with many of the same words, only slight grammatical changes.

Many of the stories come from Egypt, then also Greek Dionysus, Mithras, Persian and others

It's important to remember what a Gospel is. It is a story of someones impressions of life. None of the Gospels were written by the names on them. Mark did not write The Gospel of Mark, nor John, nor Luke nor Mathew. Some else did. In many cases, several someones.

This is where all these stories break apart. They were never meant to a literal telling of a person. They were, as Jesus spoke, parables. They were stories to teach a lesson. It was the early church that created a 'Literal Person' of the character Jesus. There is simply not enough actual, historical proof that he existed.

Here's where I'm going to get yelled at. The bible is not proof of the bible's existence. Biblical scholars will use the bible to prove stories in the bible. Nazareth did not exist. The Romans were very meticulous in their record keeping. They taxed EVERYTHING. If there was a Nazareth, they would have taxed it. No Roman records. Jesus of Nazareth?

The bible has been taken to mean actual, literal history. It is not. It was meant to be allegory. A teaching tool. It was early church leaders who decided to make a person of Jesus. Do you know how many versions of the name Jesus there were? There was not even a 'J' in the alphabet at the time. It was created during the time of King James. His original name, had he existed would have been more like Yashoua. And then there are the Egyptian versions of the name.

The original stories went from Aramaic to Greek to Latin to Olde English to Modern English. Have you ever played that game, say a sentence, pass it from one person around the room and find out what it sounds like at the end?

I'm not saying that the teachings are bad teaching. What I am saying is that people put far too much into it. Jesus, even in the bible did not say that he was the 'one and only' son of God. We are all the children of a creator. Only John had him saying that. The other books only had him saying 'Son of God'. Mark did not even begin the story until he was 32 years old, the one year of his ministry. Mark has one year. Others put it at 3 years of ministry. If Mark's was a biography, it would have begun in his childhood. The birth stories are different at the beginning from book to book. The death stories are different at the end.

Sin never meant what it means now. It only meant doing what was against your own moral code. The word itself was taken from many other words of that historical era. The things that are stated as sins are people's words, not the creator's.

and the Old Testament  .. . . don't get me started . .. . ..

Here is where we finally get to the 'born again'. Horus said it too. Only thru me, that a man is born again can he enter heaven. Again, all taken out of context. It is a very Gnostic saying. A person changes when they get to a certain realization. Intellectually and spiritually. I have nothing against born agains. I will not argue with anyone's personal beliefs. We will all reach a certain level if spirituality if we choose to do so. But you have to go for it. Some want it, some need it, others are happy without it.


I'll leave this to see if anyone has comments.

Peace
Cult


--------------------
A Coming Out of Retirement Psychonaughtical Traveler

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJawofmalak
Friendly Stranger

Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 443
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Cultosaurus]
    #9443171 - 12/16/08 11:30 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Ok, to say that Jesus doesn't exist is just plain stupid. With the level of understanding of Hebrew history we have today, to say Jesus doesn't exist is just ignorant. The first written work of Alexander the great was written 500 years after he died, and was don't deny he existed. Even the buddha isn't questioned, and he lived 500 years before. The story of jesus is told from a purely jewish context. It's just that ignorant authors that are tryign to sell books don't even try to put themselves in the mind set of a person that lived during that times, and how they would have interpreted the book. I'm no christian, but shitty scholarship is shitty scholarship. it's time we stop perpetrating these "myths" and actually tackle what the book actually has to say.


--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: mushroom people]
    #9443191 - 12/16/08 11:34 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

So you think this only happens with born agains?




No, New Age types also think they have special abilities.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Jawofmalak]
    #9443212 - 12/16/08 11:39 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ok, to say that Jesus doesn't exist is just plain stupid.
To say Jesus doesn't exist is just ignorant.




Seems someone does not comprehend the difference between ignorance and stupidity. Not a good way to start a post.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemushroom people
I ♥ LSD
Male


Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 406
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9443433 - 12/16/08 12:29 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

So you think this only happens with born agains?




No, New Age types also think they have special abilities.




No one said anything about special abilities. Stick to the topic. Skeptics seem to think they have the market cornered on being right, just like born agains.

I think that what is right for me may not be right for you. What's true for me may not be true for you. Truth on the other hand is absolute.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJawofmalak
Friendly Stranger

Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 443
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9443467 - 12/16/08 12:34 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Ok, to say that Jesus doesn't exist is just plain stupid.
    To say Jesus doesn't exist is just ignorant.



Seems someone does not comprehend the difference between ignorance and stupidity. Not a good way to start a post.


Hmm, in retrospect I sounded like a douche bag. So, sorry for coming off like that. but in all seriousness, Jesus's existence has been more than proven. I mean how much proof is needed? What I'm saying is, that he existed. Whether you believe in his message r not is different. i personally do not. But don't deny his existence because you don't like the message.


--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: mushroom people]
    #9443538 - 12/16/08 12:46 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Skeptics seem to think they have the market cornered on being right, just like born agains.





***IGNORANCE ALERT!***

A skeptic is a person who must question and investigate BEFORE accepting something as fact. There is not a claim of being right; there is ONLY a pointing to the lack of evidence of a claimant.

A Born-Again is a whole' nother animal. That will make totally unsubstantiated claims about life-after-death, and how and who will be 'saved'.

There is no comparison.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemushroom people
I ♥ LSD
Male


Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 406
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9443548 - 12/16/08 12:49 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Sorry, Skeptics think their methodology is the only way to discover what is true.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9443549 - 12/16/08 12:49 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

OC, do you believe that God exists?

If the answer is yes, then you're not a skeptic.

If the answer is no, that you believe God does not exist, then you're not a skeptic on this position.

If the answer is no, that there is no evidence either way (a true skeptical position), then you're a fence-sitting agnostic who must be equally skeptical about invisible pink unicorns.

I doubt you fall into this latter camp.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: mushroom people]
    #9443550 - 12/16/08 12:49 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

No one said anything about special abilities. Stick to the topic.




Short-term memory loss? Chi anyone?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRecondicom
Power of four
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 226
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9443563 - 12/16/08 12:51 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

IMO.

  1.-  In the history of language there is an extensive Diaspora. The indo-Semitic alphabet is considered an evolution from the Egyptian alphabet or way of writing. The roman alphabet is the one we use in English.
  2.- The Sumerian symbolism of the ankh or resurrection.
  3.- The religion of becoming Osiris.
  4.-In Judaism as I learned from the New Testament the followers are called the sons of God.  But it is the duality that Jesus came to fight. Therefore; the two commandments of love are a new development. In a way a type of Buddhism of two truths that become one.
The different in Jesus is that we are born with it. All we have to do is to practice the pure love.
  5.- Jesus existed and imparted the forbidden knowledge to unclean followers and women. Therefore, he was killed for imparting classified knowledge. As to what this knowledge was…the new testament is not  clear other than saying…Jesus continue to further teach his disciples.
  6.-It is my intuition that the word Jesus means teacher. Christ is a greek addition. It is of the same root as Yeshiva.
  7.- Yesh.


--------------------
Wave.
'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape.
  Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: mushroom people]
    #9443577 - 12/16/08 12:54 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Sorry, Skeptics think their methodology is the only way to discover what is true.




I am NOT Al Gore, but I have contributed in some small part to: the internet(built routers), music software, artifical intelligence, gas chromatography, satellite communications, and computers.

Seems to be a pretty damn good method.

Please share your method, what you mean by true and what you have discovered.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemushroom people
I ♥ LSD
Male


Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 406
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9443591 - 12/16/08 12:56 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Chi is not a special ability, every one has chi running through them. That was also a different thread. Grasping at straws aren't we. In the last hour you tried bullying, applying different rules to me than yourself, drawing statements from other threads, incorrectly claiming that you can't back up your claims because "you can't prove a negative". Pathetic.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemushroom people
I ♥ LSD
Male


Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 406
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9443622 - 12/16/08 01:00 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Sorry, Skeptics think their methodology is the only way to discover what is true.




I am NOT Al Gore, but I have contributed in some small part to: the internet(built routers), music software, artifical intelligence, gas chromatography, satellite communications, and computers.

Seems to be a pretty damn good method.

Please share your method, what you mean by true and what you have discovered.




You are confusing building technology with discovering the truths of the universe. I helped configure and build united airlines network, including all servers, workstations, routers and switches. Whoopty fucking do.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: mushroom people]
    #9443641 - 12/16/08 01:03 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Obsfucation aside, you have no method to offer then?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemushroom people
I ♥ LSD
Male


Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 406
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9443663 - 12/16/08 01:08 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

You do not deny that you believe you hold the only method to prove what is true.
That is the whole point. Thanks for clearing that up.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: mushroom people]
    #9443688 - 12/16/08 01:13 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I helped configure and build united airlines network, including all servers, workstations, routers and switches. Whoopty fucking do.




I actually took pride in what I did. Sorry you find serving mankind on the physical plane to be trivial.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: mushroom people]
    #9443695 - 12/16/08 01:15 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

How can I believe otherwise when those that claim a superior method offer nothing at all? :shrug:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9443703 - 12/16/08 01:16 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Still waiting for your answer on whether you're a skeptic when it comes to God and invisible pink unicorns.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: mushroom people]
    #9443726 - 12/16/08 01:20 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Chi is not a special ability,



So you agree that those who claim to be able to fry fish in their hands and knock others over without a touch are deluded?

Quote:

every one has chi running through them.



And you know this how?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJawofmalak
Friendly Stranger

Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 443
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: deCypher]
    #9443738 - 12/16/08 01:22 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Then by your definition Cypher, a skeptic would never believe anything regardless of the thought process being it. He would just deny everything. Eventually skepticism must come to come to some sort of conclusion, or else it's just a load of contradiction.


--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Jawofmalak]
    #9443745 - 12/16/08 01:23 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Jawofmalak said:
Then by your definition Cypher, a skeptic would never believe anything regardless of the thought process being it. He would just deny everything.




Close, but not quite.  A true skeptic would deny everything but his own existence.  Everything else is unprovable.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemushroom people
I ♥ LSD
Male


Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 406
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9443751 - 12/16/08 01:24 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

I helped configure and build united airlines network, including all servers, workstations, routers and switches. Whoopty fucking do.




I actually took pride in what I did. Sorry you find serving mankind on the physical plane to be trivial.




I didn't say I don't take pride, but it hard has anything to do with finding truth.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemushroom people
I ♥ LSD
Male


Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 406
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9443791 - 12/16/08 01:30 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
How can I believe otherwise when those that claim a superior method offer nothing at all? :shrug:




The point of this discussion we are having is that born agains and skeptics both claim to have exclusivity of truth. I agree that science has a good method for technology, but on spiritual matters I think you need to throw in the towel and admit you fail at proving these things true.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: mushroom people]
    #9443795 - 12/16/08 01:30 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

We have a thing called the Icelander Rule here on P&S. I must invoke it at this time. This is the THIRD time I am asking what your superior method is. If no reply, you must recuse yourself from this thread.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJawofmalak
Friendly Stranger

Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 443
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: deCypher]
    #9443832 - 12/16/08 01:35 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

If this is so, you must deny objective reality. And if you deny objective reality, then you destroy the very foundation of your arguments, reality. Skepticism is good, but when taken into an extreme everything becomes completely relative. And relativity is the very thing that skepticism is tying to stamp out. Skepticism only deals in concrete reality.


--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Jawofmalak]
    #9443842 - 12/16/08 01:37 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Jawofmalak said:
If this is so, you must deny objective reality. And if you deny objective reality, then you destroy the very foundation of your arguments, reality. Skepticism is good, but when taken into an extreme everything becomes completely relative. And relativity is the very thing that skepticism is tying to stamp out. Skepticism only deals in concrete reality.




According to a true skeptic, there is no such thing as objective reality--after all, I cannot be sure whether I am dreaming all of this.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemushroom people
I ♥ LSD
Male


Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 406
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9443850 - 12/16/08 01:38 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Chi is not a special ability,



So you agree that those who claim to be able to fry fish in their hands and knock others over without a touch are deluded?

Quote:

every one has chi running through them.



And you know this how?




If we look at the concept of chi, it is not a special ability. It is frequently translated as "energy flow". As far as frying fish and knocking people down with chi, I find that a little hard to believe but not impossible. I do believe that martial artists us chi to their advantage.

How do I know it is real, because I practice Qigong, yoga. I have read many books on the subject and do not automatically declare delusional billions of people who have worked with chi for thousands of years, because mr. science can't build a meter that will measure it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJawofmalak
Friendly Stranger

Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 443
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: deCypher]
    #9443873 - 12/16/08 01:42 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Then I call shenanigans and say that you yourself have now entered the world of magical ponies and turtles. If there is no concrete reality you have absolutely no reference point from which to say what is true and what is not true. The hard line skepticism you are advocating is defeating the very purpose of skepticism, to come to real answers by not blindly believing anything.


--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Jawofmalak]
    #9443884 - 12/16/08 01:44 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Jawofmalak said: If there is no concrete reality you have absolutely no reference point from which to say what is true and what is not true.




Welcome to skepticism.  The only thing I can be sure of is that I exist.  Anything else is open to doubt.

Of course, true skepticism is seldom seen in practice.  Pragmatic skeptics usually assume a few things for granted (something real skeptics do not), and then proceed to apply their skepticism from that point forward.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemushroom people
I ♥ LSD
Male


Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 406
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9443888 - 12/16/08 01:45 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
We have a thing called the Icelander Rule here on P&S. I must invoke it at this time. This is the THIRD time I am asking what your superior method is. If no reply, you must recuse yourself from this thread.




I don't play by your imaginary rules. I never claimed to have a superior method. This is not about me or you. This is about skeptics, born agains and new agers. I am none of the above. If you claim to be a skeptic and want to compare and contrast your methods with theirs, go ahead. I pointed out that you all believe you have exclusivity of truth. You agreed. Period. end. done. fin. peace out. au revoir. don't let the door hit you in the ass.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJawofmalak
Friendly Stranger

Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 443
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: deCypher]
    #9443922 - 12/16/08 01:52 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with you that there is a certain element of doubt in absolutely everything, but disagree in that everything is doubtful. This very conversation that we are having now is based upon the laws of logic. Else our dialogue would make very little sense to either of us. And this use of the laws of logic assumes the existence of a concrete reality. So one of two things can happen. Either there is no concrete reality and your argument is entirely irrational, or there is a concrete reality where things must be either true or false.


--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Jawofmalak]
    #9444288 - 12/16/08 03:04 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Jawofmalak said:
I agree with you that there is a certain element of doubt in absolutely everything, but disagree in that everything is doubtful. This very conversation that we are having now is based upon the laws of logic. Else our dialogue would make very little sense to either of us. And this use of the laws of logic assumes the existence of a concrete reality. So one of two things can happen. Either there is no concrete reality and your argument is entirely irrational, or there is a concrete reality where things must be either true or false.




Or I'm just talking to a figment of my imagination on a fictitious website, through a make-believe screen.  :tongue:  Things are either true or false, granted, but this does not assume the existence of a concrete reality.  I can certainly play chess in a dream, can't I?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJawofmalak
Friendly Stranger

Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 443
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: deCypher]
    #9444313 - 12/16/08 03:09 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

True and false are the very definitions of concrete reality.  While we may not know what that concrete reality might be, that does not negate it's existence.


--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Jawofmalak]
    #9444332 - 12/16/08 03:14 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Jawofmalak said:
True and false are the very definitions of concrete reality.  While we may not know what that concrete reality might be, that does not negate it's existence.




No, but it doesn't support its existence either.

Truth and falsity are interesting concepts to define, but I don't think their definitions overlap with any arguments about the existence of an objective reality.

X = X is certainly true (truth by definition), but this in no way proves anything about the outside world.  Likewise, it is true that I am experiencing certain sensations, such as seeing certain colors or hearing certain sounds, but this also does nothing to prove that these sounds are being produced by anything objective in "concrete" reality.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJawofmalak
Friendly Stranger

Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 443
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: deCypher]
    #9444675 - 12/16/08 04:04 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

If X is a part of the outside world, then X does prove something about the outside world. If you happen to fall at 9.8 m/s to the ground, and so do I, then we can generalize that all things fall at 9.8 m/s. So it not only true to you, but to everyone else. And by that being true, we have created a concrete reality, where all objects on Earth fall at 9.8 m/s, and at no other speed. So the moment you acknowledge a truth, you have acknowledged the concrete reality of a situation.

If you acknowledge all existence as subjective, you can't be much of a skeptic because everyone is equally right and wrong. their argument is wrong, and so is your argument against it.

Oh, and btw, my mind came. :thumbup:


--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Jawofmalak]
    #9444788 - 12/16/08 04:20 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Have you observed every object that has ever fallen towards the Earth?
How do you know that "rules" like gravity will continue to hold up in the future?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Jawofmalak]
    #9444794 - 12/16/08 04:21 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Jawofmalak said:
If you acknowledge all existence as subjective, you can't be much of a skeptic because everyone is equally right and wrong. their argument is wrong, and so is your argument against it.




If all existence is subjective, then there is no anyone else--only me.  :lol:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJawofmalak
Friendly Stranger

Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 443
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: deCypher]
    #9444867 - 12/16/08 04:34 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Then that crosses the line from skeptic to postmodernist.


--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleJawofmalak
Friendly Stranger

Registered: 07/21/08
Posts: 443
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #9444879 - 12/16/08 04:36 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I don't, but if the current conditiosn stay the same, then onjects will always fall on Earth at 9.8 m/s. Objective reality doesn't discount change. But as long as all the factors remain the same, you should always get the same result, and this is concrete reality.


--------------------
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCultosaurus
Aspiring Psychonaught
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/28/08
Posts: 239
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 20 days
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Jawofmalak]
    #9454818 - 12/18/08 07:58 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Jawofmalak said:
Ok, to say that Jesus doesn't exist is just plain stupid.
    To say Jesus doesn't exist is just ignorant.
Seems someone does not comprehend the difference between ignorance and stupidity. Not a good way to start a post.

Hmm, in retrospect I sounded like a douche bag. So, sorry for coming off like that. but in all seriousness, Jesus's existence has been more than proven. I mean how much proof is needed? What I'm saying is, that he existed. Whether you believe in his message r not is different. i personally do not. But don't deny his existence because you don't like the message.





Thank-you for rescinding your venom. As was pointed out, attack the argument, not the author.

I have been reading religious conspiracy theory for many years. The book I mentioned is not the first nor the last to have come up with theories on the existence or lack of existence of Jesus. The author of that book, BTW is an Anglican minister who writes for a newspaper and is well versed in biblical literature. The Theory is not his, it was begun many years before by several other biblically literate authors, all of them censured by the 'conventional' church for their beliefs.

The point of my bringing it up was to the original statement of question. The born agains. They, like everyone with a particularly strong religious point of view have a habit of quoting their bible. They are not the only ones, the Muslims quote Allah and Mohamed, the Buddhist's quote Buddha, assholes quote Mao.

My point was that relying on a quotation from a suspicious source makes your argument suspicious. (see the thread on metaphysics)

But are the ones originally brought up on the thread topic really as bad as OrgoneConclusion says? I doubt it. We all have our own personal view of anything, whether it is that a movie is good or broccoli is bad. Proof is, indeed, always needed when trying to verify the existence of anything or anyone. It is not, however, required when trying to validate a faith in something or someone.

Peace
Cult


--------------------
A Coming Out of Retirement Psychonaughtical Traveler

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Cultosaurus]
    #9455104 - 12/18/08 09:30 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

A great many mythologies retained the story of a coming Messiah to save mankind. But they were mythologies, not accounts of a real man who had yet come, and they never claimed to be. It was Jesus who fulfilled not only the Jewish prophecies, but all these prophecies found throughout the world. His story is the only one that claims that the Messiah actually came in the flesh. You've adequately shown that you believe these ancient mythologies are clearly in some way connected to Jesus. Many of these stories were "written in the stars" to be more effectively passed down (ever wonder why none of the constellations actually look like what they represent?). Take for example the Virgo constellation - Hebrew "Bethula" denoting a Virgin - Arabic Sumbol meaning "who bears or carries forth the harvest" - Greek "Parthenos" meaning "station of the desired" - Latin "Wergo" meaning "a pure virgin separated" etc. etc. All these names talk of a virgin, but also speak of one coming forth from her. In the Old Testament Haggiai refers to this prophesied One, when he says "And the desire of all nations shall come." The etymology of most all of the astrological terms we are familiar with today show the full portent they bear concerning a coming Messiah to save mankind. Check out The Witness of the Stars by E.W. Bullinger. It says some things I'm sure very similar to what Tim Harpur was saying, but with a radically different and more logical conclusion IMO - if you deny the existence of the historical Jesus, you must deny the majority of history.


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Edited by myriadeyes (12/18/08 09:55 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCultosaurus
Aspiring Psychonaught
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/28/08
Posts: 239
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 20 days
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9455449 - 12/18/08 10:58 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:  IMO - if you deny the existence of the historical Jesus, you must deny the majority of history.





and I think that therein lies the key. Western religion has built up such a huge edifice for the past 2000 years on this man. But how many times have we actually seen such things fall apart. Truth becomes known, lies fall apart. I'm not saying this one is or is not reality, but we have certainly seen modern churches have to backtrack on things. Even in the face of overwhelming truth and verification, the churches will still stand there and tell us the opposite, because it is their dogma.
"Not until 1981 did the Roman Catholic Church officially forgive Galileo. " (http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/galileo.html) (since at some point I saw someone requesting sources of origin for info)

Even if Jesus did not exist, the church would still have to stand there and tell us he did, otherwise their whole house falls in upon their head. They have no choice but to support that argument.

and also, let's not forget that the winners write the history. The winners are the ones who have deleted the opposing views, burned the books of others, forcing them to bury them in the hills in clay pots. The Gnostic Gospels, the Nag Hamadi, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Gospel of Judas Iscariot, and may others still to be found, all lost to history, not to be included. When it comes right down to it, there is no more 100% verifiable proof that he did exist than there is 100% verifiable proof that he did not. The bible and it's contents is not proof of it's own existence or reality.

It comes back around to something I've said before, religion, like metaphysical sciences and other 'unverifiables, are only based on faith. You either believe or you don't. They are real to your mind or they are not. These are the intangibles that drive men to war when the rest of us stand back and wonder at their sanity. WMD? landing on the moon? the shooter on the grassy knoll? Theories.

Y gwir erbyn y byd - Welsh saying attributed to the Druids "The Truth against the world."

Peace
Cult


--------------------
A Coming Out of Retirement Psychonaughtical Traveler

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Cultosaurus]
    #9455723 - 12/18/08 12:00 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

You completely missed the point.  Of course there is no quantifiable proof that Jesus existed, just as there is no quantifiable proof for the majority of things we take for granted as "known". If you apply your reasoning that Christ did not exist because there is no 100% verifiable proof, why draw the line here? What can be trusted and cannot? I say the majority of history, by your reasoning, must be thrown out. Perhaps it's all part of one BIG conspiracy theory :wetself:

Why should the Catholic church's use of the Bible to fashion the idea that the world was the center of the universe to further increase their power bear any weight on the veracity of the text? Read The Two Bablyons by Alexander Hislop. It explains how the Catholic church perfectly fits the mould of the anti-Christ.


This is the cosmic background radiation of our universe - aka the edge of the visible universe. It seems the Catholics in the end were right though, because our galaxy is almost smack dab in the middle. Watch this movie for a more in depth description if you feel like it.

Also, the only reason the Dead Sea Scrolls are the oldest surviving Biblical texts is because of the destruction of Israel by the Romans in 70 A.D. It has nothing to do with people changing and preserving their own interpretations of the texts and burning others. They were simply so remote and hidden that they remained relatively intact. To further go against your point, these texts written around 150 B.C. were found to be remarkably accurate when compared to the Masoretic texts compiled around 1000 A.D, which are used in translation for modern English Bibles.

My religion is assuredly not based upon a blind faith alone, but upon a belief - trusting in the evidence I have found thus far. The evidence you have encountered and assimilated has led you to a belief that God (or at least Jesus) is a figment of the imagination - unless you claim to have found some "verifiable evidence", you are still inevitably partaking in the game of "metaphysical sciences" of which you seem to look down upon. Evidence I've found has culminated to a belief that only God can piece together this infinite sandbox. It is here that our paths meet, but surely I have more in my arsenal to debate with than the blind assumption that I simply believe and you do not?

Edited by myriadeyes (12/18/08 12:53 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9456969 - 12/18/08 04:14 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

why draw the line here? What can be trusted and cannot?

Yes, why indeed. Some things have clear concise evidence (such as a battlefield or sunken ship with dozens of witnesses and parallel stories), and and some have always been stories. There isn't neccesarily anything factual about history as it's taught in public schools, most textbooks are biased to the majority you're in and will slide on evidence. This is why we have things like logic and rationality, where upon application it becomes apparent that we don't need to throw out every unverified story we have heard because one of them was false.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Edited by Bernackums (12/18/08 06:18 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJCoke
dream observer
Male


Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 1,229
Loc: maryland Flag
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Bernackums]
    #9457696 - 12/18/08 06:10 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

more on topic to the original post, Paul in Romans 14 (one of the best letterrs in the bible) says we should not eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything else that cause's a brother to stumble, though all these things are fine, may it not piss off someone of weaker faith than yourself, "keep what you believe about these things between yourself and God", as paul says,,,however, a couple verse's later he also says "do not let what you believe to be good to be spoken of as evil", so there are two stances a christian who smokes pot or eats shrooms can stand.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=14&version=31

^^^you can get other translations there, but i'll post the whole chapter here with some bold types for my point:

Romans 14:

The Weak and the Strong

1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
  " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
  'every knee will bow before me;
      every tongue will confess to God.' " 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.


13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Bernackums]
    #9459342 - 12/18/08 11:06 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

The idea that there "isn't anything necessarily factual in history books" flies in the face of 99% of American's (and probably the world's) belief sets which incorporate this information as "fact". No, they are typically not able to present a rigorous case for history that would hold up in a court of law, but clearly we would not be able to believe much of anything if this was the test it must go through.

I certainly agree that logic and rationality must be used in order to filter through the vast amounts of information we consume every day. My entire point was centered around the fact that he required "100% verifiable proof" that Jesus Christ existed for him to change his mind.

I've found that the existence of Christ is highly likely, when thinking rationally and logically. We have a handful of accounts from extra-biblical historians and scholars living near his time and of course the Biblical accounts. But with that completely ignored, what about the massive shock wave called Christianity that went through the world from that Palestinian epicenter in the first century? When thinking logically, would this religion have taken such a strong hold on men's hearts and minds if it had merely been fabricated? Remember the entire doctrine is based upon a man who actually lived and died for the people. But let us even assume for a moment it was fabricated - what did these men have to gain from creating this New Testament? Contrary to popular belief, nowhere does it teach to tithe one's money to a church (this was a Jewish practice). Wouldn't the text have been laden with goodies for those who created it to reap? The church only became rich and powerful centuries later after incredible corruption took place in preventing the common people from being able to actually read the text. But the text itself, the beginning of it all, bear no signs to lead one to believe it was fabricated.


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Edited by myriadeyes (12/18/08 11:35 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9460611 - 12/19/08 06:48 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

When thinking logically, would this religion have taken such a strong hold on men's hearts and minds if it had merely been fabricated?

Yes, it's a religion that (if all goes well) promises a paradise and eternal bliss. Why wouldn't you want that?

But let us even assume for a moment it was fabricated - what did these men have to gain from creating this New Testament?

A cult. And someone who truly thinks they are spoken to by God is more than likely very self-righteous and probably has quite the ego, perhaps they wanted to place their opinions on it.

But the text itself, the beginning of it all, bear no signs to lead one to believe it was fabricated.

Some fiction writers are very good at making you think their story isn't. :shrug:


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Edited by Bernackums (12/19/08 06:54 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9461045 - 12/19/08 08:45 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

When thinking logically, would this religion have taken such a strong hold on men's hearts and minds if it had merely been fabricated?




The number of followers = Truth? Me no think so. Almost the entire Mormon Church was based upon fabrications. Was Zeus and the whole Mt.Olympus gang fabricated?

Your question sounds exactly the same to me as those late night male enlargement commercials. "With over 500,000 capsules sold, could we offer you a free sample if our product didn't work?"

The answer to both questions is "Yes!"


--------------------

Edited by OrgoneConclusion (12/19/08 09:44 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCultosaurus
Aspiring Psychonaught
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/28/08
Posts: 239
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 20 days
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9461206 - 12/19/08 09:28 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
... you are still inevitably partaking in the game of "metaphysical sciences" of which you seem to look down upon. Evidence I've found has culminated to a belief that only God can piece together this infinite sandbox. It is here that our paths meet, but surely I have more in my arsenal to debate with than the blind assumption that I simply believe and you do not?




To clarify, I do believe in metaphysical sciences, I do not look down upon them. I have never said that I do not believe in them. I used them as another example where faith is what leads us to support something.

"more in your arsenal?" again, these sources are only opinion. There are many authors on both sides of this discussion. Neither one is proven correct. It is only what we choose to dismiss as unacceptable evidence which separates them. I reject some evidence as not following the theory and you reject other evidence. That makes both of our sides only 'Opinion'.

Bernakums has already responded nicely to some other comments. TY

Peace
Cult


PS, I am enjoying this lively debate. As I said, I have studied these theories for years, and only for my own entertainment, now I get to have some use out of it.


--------------------
A Coming Out of Retirement Psychonaughtical Traveler

Edited by Cultosaurus (12/19/08 06:16 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Bernackums]
    #9461965 - 12/19/08 12:41 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, it's a religion that (if all goes well) promises a paradise and eternal bliss. Why wouldn't you want that?

I wouldn't want it if I knew the man they claimed to save me was just a mere fabrication....

A cult. And someone who truly thinks they are spoken to by God is more than likely very self-righteous and probably has quite the ego, perhaps they wanted to place their opinions on it.

You just answered "why would they want to make a new religion" with "because they wanted to make a new religion (cult)".. The idea that "someone thinks they've been spoken to by God" as a reason for Christianity's beginning is exactly what I believe too.. Don't see how that supports your case (if you could show that they were mentally ill it would). Self-righteous? I've found the teachings of the New Testament to be extremely humble and kind. Help me find these passages?

Here is my question: What evidence or reason leads you to support the idea that the New Testament is a fabricated cult? A new religion is only created if the creators have something to gain from it (unless of course it's the real deal) ie Scientology or Mormonism. Where in the text do we see anything to be gained? These stories are of men who had already died and was thus not glorifying the creators themselves or their forefathers for that matter...


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9461991 - 12/19/08 12:48 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I wasn't equating numbers with truth. I'm asking for reasons to support that it was fabricated before I assume that this many people were "tricked". Extenze creators obviously have something to gain from selling their product. What did these ancient men add to their story of a humble man from Israel so that they too could turn a profit?


ahh perry mason. I used to wake up at 2 in the morning when I was 5 and watch that all night.


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Edited by myriadeyes (12/19/08 12:59 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9462056 - 12/19/08 01:03 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I wasn't equating numbers with truth.



Really? Would we be having this discussion if only one person followed the religion?

You talk about a shockwave of Truth, well the biggest expansion of Christianity came about from Constantine who may not even have been a believer. It was likely a political move to unify many factions.

Quote:

I'm asking for reasons to support that it was fabricated before I assume that this many people were "tricked".



There are many possibilities, but to expect us here to psychoanalyze long-dead people from another culture and time is pure guesswork.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9463095 - 12/19/08 04:31 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

You just answered "why would they want to make a new religion" with "because they wanted to make a new religion (cult)"

Because they wanted to make a new religion that they were in charge of. These are just some possible answers to your questions, there are others. Man finds plenty of reasons to start religion and write doctrines, this is evident by religions and doctrines.

Here is my question: What evidence or reason leads you to support the idea that the New Testament is a fabricated cult?

I consider every religion to be a cult.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJCoke
dream observer
Male


Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 1,229
Loc: maryland Flag
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Bernackums]
    #9464975 - 12/19/08 11:23 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

this will depend on how much historical fact you believe there is in the new testament, but why would say someone like paul give up his highly respectable position in the temple, his sexuality and his money, to follow a hated branch of his beliefs to a life of serving others and be persecuted to death just to say "I saw jesus", when he could of done pretty much the same thing but with his position in the temple, with sex, with money, with respect by others of his traditinol beliefs, more so than just respect, but even authority to lead others, and a longer life full of ease, except with no likeing towards Jesus?

seems like a bad choice for him and one that others would not much be interested in following, but he wasted his life just so he could say "I saw Jesus too".

according to the book anyways.

but I guess people pretty much do the same thing today, but without the claim of actually seeing Jesus, so who knows.


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9465588 - 12/20/08 03:21 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I'm not asking for a psycho-analyzation, but I've read plenty of your posts and it's obvious you find the Christian religion laughable, so please, this should be easy, enlighten me: What evidence suggests that men were lying concerning the existence of Jesus when they created the Christian cult?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Bernackums]
    #9465589 - 12/20/08 03:22 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Okay, we are getting there. Why would they care to be in charge of a religion? What are these other answers? I also believe all religions are cults. How you are defining cult though? Because clearly you see it as something different than how it's typically defined - a particular system of religious worship..


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Edited by myriadeyes (12/20/08 03:29 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9465886 - 12/20/08 07:10 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

What evidence suggests that men were lying concerning the existence of Jesus when they created the Christian cult?




Would you wager against me if I said people distorted my words and even read things that weren't said? This has happened mere moments after making an unedited post with an exact record.

Are you with me so far?

OK, now imagine all posts were wiped out the next day and not recorded anywhere. Now imagine that my Swami persona took on a mythical aura that had nothing to do with the man behind the curtain.

Now fast forward three generations or about 100 years and pretend this forum is still going strong. How accurate would the quotes and stories of 'Swami' be?

Well this is how the Gospels were recorded. People three generations removed wrote them down as 'history'.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCultosaurus
Aspiring Psychonaught
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/28/08
Posts: 239
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 20 days
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9466119 - 12/20/08 09:26 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
I'm not asking for a psycho-analyzation, but I've read plenty of your posts and it's obvious you find the Christian religion laughable, so please, this should be easy, enlighten me: What evidence suggests that men were lying concerning the existence of Jesus when they created the Christian cult?




First, no religion is laughable. They all begin because of a simple human need. As a curious human being, we need to answer certain basic questions, someone does it to our satisfaction and we are happy campers. How those questions are answered is the source of the different groups. Christ answered questions, Buddha answered questions, Mohamed answered questions, and all to peoples satisfaction. TA-DA  . . .. religion created.

The answer to your second question is even easier. It's as old or older than the oldest profession : POWER. Within any given group, say, Christianity for example, if the original leader (Jesus) no longer exists, then his immediate followers take over as his spokespersons, the disciples. When they are gone, then others must follow. Men, church leaders who now speak for the original leader. They want to control it as they see fit. This is where it all gets real messy real fast. Jesus is not there to contradict the new leaders, to tell them that they are corrupting his original words. Check out a book called 'The Gnostic Gospels' by Elaine Pagels. In there she provides the names of many of the 2nd and 3rd century church leaders who chose what was to be recorded and what was to be thrown out. Documented proof of the corruption of the original church. (this is the verifiable stuff, written by them in their own hand) Those men thought they were doing the right thing. They thought they should keep the power in the priesthood, they had a hierarchy and wanted to keep that power to themselves as 'God's representatives'.

This is where the burying that I mentioned earlier comes in. Yes, some of the texts you mentioned date from 150 CE to 250 CE, written down, despised by God's present representatives and hidden. At that time, they weren't even out from under Roman rule and had to fight with Rome and with other opposing viewpoints.

Power is the root of all evil. Even the good think they should have control for the good of the masses.


Peace
Cult


--------------------
A Coming Out of Retirement Psychonaughtical Traveler

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Cultosaurus]
    #9466125 - 12/20/08 09:30 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

First, no religion is laughable.




:rofl2:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCultosaurus
Aspiring Psychonaught
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/28/08
Posts: 239
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 20 days
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9466134 - 12/20/08 09:34 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

First, no religion is laughable.




:rofl2:




OK, 6 of one, half a dozen of the other

my point was that no sincere philosophy is laughable. yes, some are just a joke, how people can believe some 'leaders' is completely beyond me. Jim Jones and an endless list have proven that.


--------------------
A Coming Out of Retirement Psychonaughtical Traveler

Edited by Cultosaurus (12/20/08 09:36 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9466893 - 12/20/08 12:37 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Not a very good analogy. Where do you get the idea that first hand accounts of Christ's words were wiped away? They have dated manuscripts of the Gospel of John to roughly 125 A.D. But I highly doubt this was the very first Gospel of John written. To have the first actual account written down on paper surviving today would be highly unlikely.

There certainly could have been papyri in existence at the time of Christ's death that survived to be copied for the next 100 or 200 years and were simply not taken care of or lost. The idea that it is impossible for his words to have been accurately retained is not in the least flawless. By this route we cannot determine whether or not this religion was fabricated.

But you've still failed to answer a simple question that should be the central source of your skepticism of Christianity: what reasons do you have that make it so easy for you to believe the Christian religion was a fabrication of ancient men? I'll continue to wait patiently.


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Edited by myriadeyes (12/20/08 12:47 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9466968 - 12/20/08 12:52 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

seems like a bad choice for him and one that others would not much be interested in following, but he wasted his life just so he could say "I saw Jesus too".

according to the book anyways.


Perhaps it is a story, perhaps it is an over inflated story, perhaps it was never true to begin with. :shrug:


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9466984 - 12/20/08 12:56 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Okay, we are getting there. Why would they care to be in charge of a religion? What are these other answers? I also believe all religions are cults. How you are defining cult though? Because clearly you see it as something different than how it's typically defined - a particular system of religious worship..




Yes, I do use an incorrect definition, but I consider a cult to be any group of people who think they have the answer. I understand many use it to refer to a specific kind of religion, but I still feel they're all cults.

I will never follow any religions or believe any doctrines; if these things are written in my language, they were written by Man.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Cultosaurus]
    #9467059 - 12/20/08 01:09 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cultosaurus said:

First, no religion is laughable. They all begin because of a simple human need. As a curious human being, we need to answer certain basic questions, someone does it to our satisfaction and we are happy campers. How those questions are answered is the source of the different groups. Christ answered questions, Buddha answered questions, Mohamed answered questions, and all to peoples satisfaction. TA-DA  . . .. religion created.




Trust me, I would not be continue to be a Christian "happy camper" if I found out the story of Christ was a lie. Simple as that.

Quote:

Cultosaurus said:
The answer to your second question is even easier. It's as old or older than the oldest profession : POWER. Within any given group, say, Christianity for example, if the original leader (Jesus) no longer exists, then his immediate followers take over as his spokespersons, the disciples.




Are you implying Christ existed for power? The story of the Bible shows he wielded no sense of power according to how you define it. If it is the New Testament that we are using to gauge our opinions on Christ (I don't know what else we would use), I must sharply deny your conclusion, as it speaks of a humble man who traveled around with nothing, requiring nothing of anyone here on this earth.

Quote:

Cultosaurus said:
Check out a book called 'The Gnostic Gospels' by Elaine Pagels. In there she provides the names of many of the 2nd and 3rd century church leaders who chose what was to be recorded and what was to be thrown out. Documented proof of the corruption of the original church.




Of course those who put together the New Testament had to choose what words would be used to represent the life and teachings of Jesus. Could we have expected anything different? How is this proof of corruption??

Quote:

Cultosaurus said:
Those men thought they were doing the right thing. They thought they should keep the power in the priesthood, they had a hierarchy and wanted to keep that power to themselves as 'God's representatives'.




How does the Biblical doctrine give power? From the text alone, which is what we are debating, I see no power dealt out to any certain group. It is only by later corruption of the Catholic church recording the Bible in a language no one knew that power was achieved, but this has nothing to do with the intent of the original writers, or Christ's for that matter.


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinerizingfire
Mycoticus psychoticus
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 875
Loc: North-east USm'f'nA
Last seen: 5 months, 30 days
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: falcon]
    #9467063 - 12/20/08 01:10 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The core of Christianity is that once you are saved you are always saved, the greek denotes this more. They are just trying to do what is right so their preaching is more out of concern, plus if they are in the right place they know and accept that no one is perfect and even Paul sinned after he was saved...he actually said he could do whatever he wanted and didn't have to worry about it because he was saved however there are consequeces for every action and he would be mastered by no sin...so really if anything there is no reason to feel bad about anything, and God wants you to pick yourself up and move on and be happy, not sit in the condemnation chair. I am a Christian and other than threads like this you have never seen me preach to anyone here...if anything the shroomery anti-Christian is far worse, far more critical and far less concerned with not hurting peoples feelings and just coexisting period, so really who is the problem? I think some of the more idiotic bible bangers that shove crap down peoples throats are antagonized by all of the anti-Christian proppaganda. After all the intention of this thread was to isolate a group of people and make them feel bad, that in itself says a lot...gee, that flows with the whole peace, love and harmony theme og shrooms too, right. Flame me all you want cuz there isn't anything you say that changes anything. God is still God, you still are not...His ways are His ways whether you like em or not....but shouldn't we be working to unite everyone vs separating and singling out large groups of people...especially since 76.1% of Americans claim to be Christians according to the US Census...


--------------------
aka NHMI

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinerizingfire
Mycoticus psychoticus
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 875
Loc: North-east USm'f'nA
Last seen: 5 months, 30 days
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: rizingfire]
    #9467068 - 12/20/08 01:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

So just tell all the Christians you can't stand hear to come to shroomotopia and we will take em off your hands...and they can talk about God all they want...in the right forum of course...


--------------------
aka NHMI

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Bernackums]
    #9467110 - 12/20/08 01:22 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Actually I don't find that to be an incorrect definition. I agree with that, that Christianity is a cult. You still answered "Why would they fabricate a false religion" with "because they thought they had the answer". But we were talking about a fabrication process, not a genuine belief in having the answer. I also believe they thought they had the answer, which is fairly obvious considering I am defending them. But you obviously deem this answer as incorrect, as a lie, so I'm trying to cast light on the underlying reasons that caused these men to set forth this lie.

If we are to go into why Christianity is the right answer or not, that is an entirely different debate from the one we are having.

Of course all religions are written by man. But this is not a reason in and of itself to reject religion. Remember, one who is actually searching for truth must first take on the idea that God does exist and explore it's possibilities before rejecting it. So if God does exist, and is all powerful and omniscient, don't you think he'd be able to get a few humans to write down His words?? I don't think the reasoning that because these words were written down by men effectively destroys the argument for God.


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9467136 - 12/20/08 01:30 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Remember, one who is actually searching for truth must first take on the idea that God does exist and explore it's possibilities before rejecting it.




Really? Must I also go through an entire investigation into billions of other imaginary beings/ideas FIRST?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9467172 - 12/20/08 01:38 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Remember, one who is actually searching for truth must first take on the idea that God does exist and explore it's possibilities before rejecting it.

I was brought up in a Christian home, I've explored the possibilities. The fact of the matter is I've never experienced this god before, so it does not exist to me. Even if these people have these really neat stories on how it's actually hiding itself for my sake or what have you.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineJCoke
dream observer
Male


Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 1,229
Loc: maryland Flag
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9468761 - 12/20/08 06:56 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Well this is how the Gospels were recorded. People three generations removed wrote them down as 'history'.




correct me if i'm wrong, but the letters of Paul are considered legit and accuraretly historical on the time claimed for there writing.


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9469873 - 12/20/08 10:54 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Remember, one who is actually searching for truth must first take on the idea that God does exist and explore it's possibilities before rejecting it.




Really? Must I also go through an entire investigation into billions of other imaginary beings/ideas FIRST?




There is no 100% verifiable proof either way. It's obvious you cannot disprove the idea that unicorns exist in another galaxy. But we find this to be highly illogical from just a little application of the mind. But what we are arguing is the logicality of the Christian religion, so yes, to make an educated decision, you must take on both beliefs sets and explore them, because you have yet to set forth any type of reasoning as I've seen that makes the actuality of it being true highly illogical. Here, I'll even repost my response to you so we can further debate. Maybe I'll get some answers this time.

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Not a very good analogy. Where do you get the idea that first hand accounts of Christ's words were wiped away? They have dated manuscripts of the Gospel of John to roughly 125 A.D. But I highly doubt this was the very first Gospel of John written. To have the first actual account written down on paper surviving today would be highly unlikely.

There certainly could have been papyri in existence at the time of Christ's death that survived to be copied for the next 100 or 200 years and were simply not taken care of or lost. The idea that it is impossible for his words to have been accurately retained is not in the least flawless. By this route we cannot determine whether or not this religion was fabricated.

But you've still failed to answer a simple question that should be the central source of your skepticism of Christianity: what reasons do you have that make it so easy for you to believe the Christian religion was a fabrication of ancient men? I'll continue to wait patiently.




Edited by myriadeyes (12/20/08 11:01 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Bernackums]
    #9469895 - 12/20/08 10:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bernackums said:
Remember, one who is actually searching for truth must first take on the idea that God does exist and explore it's possibilities before rejecting it.

I was brought up in a Christian home, I've explored the possibilities. The fact of the matter is I've never experienced this god before, so it does not exist to me. Even if these people have these really neat stories on how it's actually hiding itself for my sake or what have you.




You claimed that you could never believe a religion because it is written down by men and I was simply asking you to assume a neutral mindset and consider that God could exist, and if you would be willing to do this, you would see that your claim was not a solid refutation against religion. I'm sure you have other reasons to discredit the Christian religion, I was just demonstrating a flaw an argument you presented.


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Edited by myriadeyes (12/20/08 11:41 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineCultosaurus
Aspiring Psychonaught
Male User Gallery


Registered: 11/28/08
Posts: 239
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Last seen: 2 years, 20 days
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9471404 - 12/21/08 06:50 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Obee Waan OrgoneConclusion : sorry dude, you're on your own now.

my head hurts from this one. NASCAR goes in circles too.

Peace to all
May all your answers be found

Cult


--------------------
A Coming Out of Retirement Psychonaughtical Traveler

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineThe Centre
I am
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 1,746
Last seen: 3 years, 1 day
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: falcon]
    #9471732 - 12/21/08 08:42 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Christianity is bullshit brainwashing anyway, WATCH ZEITGEIST EVERYONE!

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9472152 - 12/21/08 11:03 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
You claimed that you could never believe a religion because it is written down by men and I was simply asking you to assume a neutral mindset and consider that God could exist, and if you would be willing to do this, you would see that your claim was not a solid refutation against religion. I'm sure you have other reasons to discredit the Christian religion, I was just demonstrating a flaw an argument you presented.




Believing a religion and having a neutral mindset of God are two different things. Even though I live my life as if there isn't a god, I still categorize myself under Agnostic because I cannot prove nor disprove the existence of God, and thus far neither can anyone else.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinerenfox
Bubba Alien
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 47
Loc: CA
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Bernackums]
    #9474131 - 12/21/08 05:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

i noticed this thread and wanted to pass along something that has helped me more than anything else.

"nathaniel Branden - honoring the self"

any of his books will give someone deep insight on the nature of self and what it means for belief systems.

there is also a interesting documentary for anyone curious about god, religeon & spirituality  called  'the god that wasn't there'

best regards.


--------------------
"There is overwhelming evidence that the higher the level of self-esteem, the more likely one will be to treat others with respect, kindness, and generosity."
-Nathaniel Branden

"When you abandon reason as your standard, there is no peaceful way for people to settle their differences, and you open the door to every kind of evil, every kind of atrocity."  -Ayn Rand

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineandrewss
precariously aggrandized


Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 3 months, 1 day
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: renfox]
    #9474280 - 12/21/08 06:31 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

When I entertain the Christian belief I cannot help but feel more accosted by god, god seems even more sadistic and judgmental within Christianity. Fate is even more insidious if god is the Christian god. He seems to be toying with us, frustrated. Rather, it seems clear minded to look at god more objectively and with less of an evil eye turned at existence. Maybe people that focus too much on the gospels overlook this feeling.

Nevertheless if I try to “go back to” this god my mind presents me with some logical problems to propose to him. I already know what his followers will say, he will answer those questions when you die and go to heaven. What if I find sufficient reason to take issue with the idea of Christian heaven? At first glance the idea of “perfect” world sounds great. I sure would love for everyone and everything to be “perfect.” But then again what would that idealization thus say about THIS existence? What is this idea of perfection? At the very least the Christian heaven should be totally different than this earth if reality is suppose to take on some sort of humanized idealization of perfection. What if the idea of perfection many humans harbor (no pain, ecstasy, harmony) is an error!

I see a lot of perfection within the world we all know. I suppose I cannot favor the idea of wanting to live in heaven in eternal communion with god. The possibility of a physical unique existence outside of the strife of the earth seems unpalatable and unrealistic. If heaven is real, what then? We all sing his praises on and on? Repopulate a NEW earth!? How beautiful…. It seems all the conceptions of god and heaven come from very world grounded ones. Obviously god has allowed (and the downtrodden never seem to get this point) some free will, free will to choose “good” and “evil.” But why would he do that if he fit the obscure Christian ideal of this benevolent god? For the greater good of course!

Remember, what tastes sweet is only as it is because of the bitter, always. Possessing a perfection of what you fancy as good is a horrendous error if anyone wants to find tasteful reasons for delight. Methinks if there is any singular notion of god, he obviously created this being with the utmost level of wisdom. That is wisdom to see the necessity of contrasts in existence and allowed what we consider as “good” and “evil” to exist in our minds/reality is the wisest necessity.

The essence of god’s reason of our existence shouldn’t be taken to be formed around the world wearied individuals plight. Rather accept the terms as they are and reason safely about the nature of god. Do not allow yourself such silly errors about placing weights and measures of human fancies upon topics unknown to us. What a play human history has been so far, how much we do not know.


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Bernackums]
    #9476267 - 12/22/08 01:45 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bernackums said:

Believing a religion and having a neutral mindset of God are two different things.




Right, but the only way to ever come to a belief in God, if He is real, is to take the time to consider the arguments for him. If you go through life with a closed mind and an automatic assumption that God cannot exist, you immediately remove yourself from the possibility of ever perceiving a truth that just might be there. You say you are an agnostic, which I completely respect, but you claimed that you could never believe a religion because it is no more than the words of men - if you begin with the idea that God exists, you see that with His power He could use men to record His words. I'm not presenting proof that it happened, but that it simply could have.

In some ways I am an agnostic, in that that I am open to the truth, in whatever ugly shape it rears its head. That's why I post here.


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9476804 - 12/22/08 06:40 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

:shrug: We're just mashing opinions. Another reason I couldn't follow that faith is because of the way you keep referring to God has "He" and "Him". The idea that a God made the entire universe (which assumably has plenty of other intelligent life), and that that god is a human just seems like narccissism on a mass scale. We humans do think highly of our selves, don't we? :smirk:


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Bernackums]
    #9477594 - 12/22/08 10:51 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The idea of God with a hundred million light-year long shlong is just creepy. :whoa: And that is flaccid!


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Bernackums]
    #9478012 - 12/22/08 12:22 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

The idea of masculine and feminine nouns long precedes our existence. Rather than some poor attempt to make Him feel like a human friend, God is represented with masculine terms because He is generative rather than receptive. A deep study can be done on this. I'm not trying to be lewd here, but it goes back to the relationship between a male and female - one gives, one receives. Whether you take this to apply also as a generalization of their personalities can offend some people, but I believe it typically naturally does. I'm not married, but a few men I know have told me that once you are, your wife will forever be reactive to what you do.

Another reason I refer to God as Him is because I believe we are the greatest achievement of an evolution reeled out by God. We have received qualities that are reflections of Him, the Generator. "God created man in His own image" We are personal conscious entities, the most important things in this universe if we really have a soul. I believe He also is personal, in that He has qualities, not a human. Why is assuming He is some great mystifying force of wind and water and ever-flowing energy any better?


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Edited by myriadeyes (12/22/08 05:37 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9480391 - 12/22/08 09:12 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Why is assuming He is some great mystifying force of wind and water and ever-flowing energy any better?

It certainly is not.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" - Stephen Roberts

This was a good point about language and how we do use masculine and femenine nouns, and I wish this was how most Christians I've met used it, but sadly they meant this literally.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinerenfox
Bubba Alien
Male User Gallery


Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 47
Loc: CA
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9481438 - 12/23/08 12:52 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

food for thought. 
- the difference between man & animal is one thing.  choice.
- there is only two types of choices, life negating, or life sustaining.
- so using our ability of awareness to 'see' and to use our volition to act.  is the basis for what could be called good & evil. life serving would be good, life negating would be evil as such.
- our survival is dependant on our ability to see and to know as where faith, the basis of many belief systems is the opposite.  to not see, to not know.
- by giving up our understanding, and volition we are controled, directed and live for something not us.  this is the basis of a life negating belief.
- when a belief is externalized, we become the victim of irrational actions and thinking.  (like the suicide bombers for alla or the christian crusades) 
- it is impossible to ave self worth if worth is extricated to a group or clan.
- if an entity or clan is the decider and thinking head.  it is possible for the individuals of that group to negate thought, responsability, and guilt for thier actions. 
- take a man and if he can kill without a consciounc, it will always be in the name of something and never will he bear the burden of choice or responsability.
- commuinism, christianity, KKK, nazi germany, catholisism all carry thess same traits.



what does this say about Jesus? not much.  I can't profess to know what his original message to people was.  I bet he was describing enlightenment & then later the church was formed as a new form of government at the council of nicia by paul. 

for more on this get 'the true believer - eric hoffer'  along with any nathaniel branden books as they cover how to rationally & objectivly answer such questions as religeons pose.


--------------------
"There is overwhelming evidence that the higher the level of self-esteem, the more likely one will be to treat others with respect, kindness, and generosity."
-Nathaniel Branden

"When you abandon reason as your standard, there is no peaceful way for people to settle their differences, and you open the door to every kind of evil, every kind of atrocity."  -Ayn Rand

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Bernackums]
    #9482879 - 12/23/08 11:58 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bernackums said:
"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours" - Stephen Roberts




I thought you were an agnostic? :tongue:

To go into why I don't give credence to other religions would be a long conversation, but they still merit an infinite amount of study which I can only hope to touch upon. My search for truth is far from over.


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9484101 - 12/23/08 04:20 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I thought you were an agnostic?

Stephen Roberts isn't. :sherlock: I prefer to take the quote literally, and not to think as "other gods" as other religions, but actually other gods. Any arguement to deny others gods can likely be turned around on just one god.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinemyriadeyes
man with a movie camera

Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Bernackums]
    #9484805 - 12/23/08 06:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

You seem to have used the quote having found it to be an accurate representation of your beliefs :strokebeard3:


--------------------
If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9485168 - 12/23/08 07:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I categorize myself under the term Agnostic because I cannot prove nor disprove the existence of god, but I live my life as if there were no god. This is because I live my life through observation, and thus far I have observed no god. I don't know if there is a god, and unless I experience some divine intervention (which I doubt), I can't know. No point thinking about it after that.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Bernackums]
    #9485331 - 12/23/08 07:47 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Bernackums said:
I cannot prove nor disprove the existence of god, but I live my life as if there were no god.




Pragmatic atheism FTW.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: deCypher]
    #9485429 - 12/23/08 08:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Agnosticism = Wussyism


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9485475 - 12/23/08 08:11 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

:shrug:


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Bernackums]
    #9485497 - 12/23/08 08:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Do you hold a neutral stance on The Easter Bunny?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9485535 - 12/23/08 08:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Gah, fine, I've run for too long. I'm an Atheist, now get outta here, fuck. :tongue2:


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Bernackums]
    #9485569 - 12/23/08 08:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Yay! Another convert. :cheer:


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Bernackums]
    #9485637 - 12/23/08 08:37 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Welcome to the fold.  :strokebeard2:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineBernackums
The universe will have its way.
Male User Gallery


Registered: 08/06/07
Posts: 865
Last seen: 14 years, 1 month
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: deCypher]
    #9485681 - 12/23/08 08:43 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Enh, nothing has changed but personal categorization, and I've been aware for sometime that the decision of Agnosticism instead of Atheism was for ease of my family. And as I had hoped, time resolved this for me.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleArden
לנשום

Registered: 09/01/08
Posts: 7,666
Loc: Α & Ω Flag
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Bernackums]
    #9485762 - 12/23/08 08:57 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Yay! Another convert. :cheer:




Quote:

Welcome to the fold.  :strokebeard2:




Ditto. Be proud. :cool:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: Arden]
    #9485802 - 12/23/08 09:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Can I be an atheist and still believe in Cthulu?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Why Shroomery 'Born Agains' are the worst [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9485820 - 12/23/08 09:06 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)



Shoulda voted while you had the chance.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9  [ show all ]

Shop: Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Capsules   MagicBag.co Certified Organic All-In-One Grow Bags by Magic Bag   Kraken Kratom Kratom Capsules for Sale   Original Sensible Seeds Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds   North Spore North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies   Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale   PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Christians?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
SHiZNO 4,807 62 04/13/03 05:39 PM
by jimsuzo
* Born agian Christains.....
( 1 2 all )
DiarYofaMadmaN 2,763 28 04/22/03 11:39 PM
by valour
* Hypothetical questions for christians
( 1 2 all )
postalboy 5,040 24 08/05/02 05:03 PM
by EvilBastard
* Some Christians and the Atheist
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Swami 14,277 119 07/31/02 07:19 AM
by Sclorch
* Do you believe in God(christian)? jinc 1,070 7 11/27/01 09:49 PM
by Monkah
* Christian Rationalism. An answer ? MAIA 1,339 2 08/04/02 05:08 AM
by MAIA
* My Take On Christianity Anonymous 1,051 8 01/19/03 05:04 PM
by MarkostheGnostic
* Christian Nations and War
( 1 2 3 all )
Swami 3,757 40 01/05/03 05:42 PM
by Anonymous

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
9,271 topic views. 0 members, 4 guests and 14 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.082 seconds spending 0.01 seconds on 12 queries.