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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Are you a socialist? [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #9147937 - 10/28/08 12:27 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

OK, Prisoner #1, I've got a clear argument as to why free trade is not socialism. Free trade as a concept is the fundamental removal of all trade barriers, some believe in it's merits while some don't and nobody wholly embraces it. But who do the tariffs/subsidies left in place protect? Usually they protect corporations or heavily entrenched industries. This is by definition mercantilism because mercantilism's purpose is to use tariffs/subsidies to protect important companies/industries from outside competition. The world has been entrenched in it for some time and it still is there. When leave to malquelidoras or sweatshops abroad they do so because labor is astronomically cheap there. It is not a form of assistance or international welfare, those jobs are gone because the local job market was not as competitive as the one opened up by free trade.

As for seus, I've seen you use the "welfare breeders" argument a lot then deny it when confronted about it.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (10/28/08 12:37 PM)

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Are you a socialist? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9147997 - 10/28/08 12:35 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

"Corporate socialism" -- the privatization of profit and the socialization of risks and misconduct -- is displacing capitalist canons. This condition prevents an adaptable capitalism, served by equal justice under law, from delivering higher standards of living and enlarging its absorptive capacity for broader community and environmental values. "

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Are you a socialist? [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9148084 - 10/28/08 12:49 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

what does that have to do with free trade at all?

And to be honest that's what I meant when I told you, you were watching too much American media, who do you think invented this word? It's only something that happens sparaticly and most only to banking institutions, usually when they are improperly regulated. It has nothing to do with free trade.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Are you a socialist? [Re: ScavengerType]
    #9148126 - 10/28/08 12:56 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
what does that have to do with free trade at all?




redstorm said it best...
what does NAFTA have to do with free trade other than the name


Quote:

It has nothing to do with free trade.




kinda like NAFTA

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InvisibleThorA
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Re: Are you a socialist? [Re: Seuss]
    #9152476 - 10/29/08 02:00 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

It isn't the welfare of all; the people paying into the system don't get anything of value out of the system.  If they did, I might agree with you.  How does paying some breeder to sit around popping out kids while watching Oprah do anything for me?




It doesn't. Ultimately the question you have to ask, albeit unlikely in your own lifetime is that does what the rest of the world does influence and matter to your daily life.

Currently we live as we see fit, we use resources as we see fit to benefit us. The market economy of greed is all about giving the chance at wealth based on education and hard work. Sometimes neither, in case of old money.

Quote:

Unfortunately, that is the sell line, but not the reality.  The rich already pay huge amounts of tax compared to the middle class and the poor.  To get around this, the rich either bribe congress to put loopholes in tax code, or move their taxable assets out of the US.  They are rich and can afford to do these types of things.  This leaves the middle class to make up the difference.  Even worse, as the tax burden on companies is increased, companies are motivated to move to tax friendly countries as well.  This leaves the middle class without jobs.

Obama makes a good talk about tax cuts to the middle class, but it is what he doesn't talk about that worries me.  There are repercussions, and the middle class is going to suffer because of them.




Well its the system we've got, and I'll agree with you on some of these points. Ideologically I think this system is ultimately destructive to the future of mankind, whether it survives another 50 years or 500 years, its based on technology.

But I will say, without just saying, take 50% of my taxes and give it to Africa (yeah right,) I will say that we dutifully need to work on our world view in regards to our destruction of the planet, our most wealthiest controlling most of our money supply, and ultimately the fact we cannot move forward as a species without some huge ideological changes along side major scientific changes.

Quote:

State run anything in the US turns into a cluser @#$%.  Writing the medical system a blank check signed for by the middle class tax payer is not the answer.  Fix the medical system so that health care is affordable, and the state doesn't need to run anything.




Affordable isn't the answer. Because ultimately someone cannot afford to pay. You don't ask that some people have access to police, fire, etc.. Because you expect those to be a given. Yet you pay for them, you expect them in a time of crisis. The worst thing a country can do is allow health care to be in the hands of private industry, much like you would not want scientific research to be in the hands of what is profitable.

You are more than happy to have many things run socially and by the government, yet you cannot move one step further to health care which the vast majority of the western world see's as inalienable right to their country.

Quote:

If he gets elected, and is able to follow through with what he wants, it will be the end of the Democrat party once people see how far left they have gone; much the same way the Republican party is having problems because of the neoconservative takeover.




The amazing thing about the US of A, is its ability to put Armageddon on supporting either party. We have such a massive divide in the US regarding what direction to take, much of it based on fear and inaccurate information. Doesn't help that most of the populace is given their news by a few news sources controlled by a small number of large corporations.

The problem with the US is it lacks real leadership and a populace that would ever follow leadership worth following. It is about scare tactics and buzz words that will influence and lead its populace to the desired end result.

Ultimately its a horribly sad situation, but as far as I'm concerned I see positives in both parties, and as an independent I would like to see some of both.

I know most of my rant is based on looking far into the future, but isn't the idea of a great government and leadership to look much further ahead than what we see now?

Elections are won/lost on advertising, propoganda and not the issues.

Is the US going the way of the Roman empire?

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Are you a socialist? [Re: Thor]
    #9152496 - 10/29/08 02:06 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Epic post :rockon:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Are you a socialist? [Re: Thor]
    #9152777 - 10/29/08 03:34 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

> Affordable isn't the answer. Because ultimately someone cannot afford to pay.

If it is affordable, then by definition everyone can pay.  However, I see the point you are trying to make.  Historically, before the system became broken, doctors and hospitals would offer discount or free services to those without any money.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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