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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
So I'm in the market for a belief system...
    #9150837 - 10/28/08 08:54 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Ladies and gentlemen, the memetic filters are down.  Convince me that I should accept your beliefs.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9150850 - 10/28/08 08:55 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

If you accept my belief that suffering is created through irrational thinking, you will gain the ability to be happy in almost any circumstance!  :smile:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Veritas]
    #9150901 - 10/28/08 09:02 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

A check is in the mail.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9150909 - 10/28/08 09:04 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

No, I don't want your money.  The only reward I desire is the elimination of self-inflicted suffering, one person at a time.


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OfflineNewfound_wonder
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Veritas]
    #9150915 - 10/28/08 09:05 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion unless acted on by a force.

The acceleration of an object (m) is equal to the sum of the forces acting on it.  ΣF=ma

For every object that exerts a force in nature, there is a force that is equal in magnitude and opposite in direction that acts on the object.  No isolated force exists in nature.

Think about it.


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If it's good for fungus, it's good for us...

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Veritas]
    #9150930 - 10/28/08 09:07 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
If you accept my belief that suffering is created through irrational thinking, you will gain the ability to be happy in almost any circumstance!  :smile:




All suffering, or some suffering?
Doesn't gaining the ability to be happy in this manner require that I also be able to recognize which thoughts of mine are irrational, and be able to prevent myself from thinking them?
Which circumstances aren't covered by this ability?
What level of happiness are we talking about here?  Nirvana?  The carnal pleasures of the flesh as embodied by seventy two nubile, moaning women?  A Zen-like quiet, content contemplation?

I just want to know what I'm getting into here before I sign my metaphorical soul away.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9150989 - 10/28/08 09:18 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

You can keep your "soul," whatever the heck that is.  :wink:

All suffering is created through irrational thinking.  Having a body results in the ability to feel both pleasure and pain, but does not inevitably lead to suffering.  Suffering is a mental imposition we place upon ourselves through the idea that reality should be different than it IS.

It's easy to spot which thoughts are irrational...just notice what you were thinking right before you made yourself miserable. :lol:

I would say that happiness would be difficult in circumstances involving a great deal of physical pain, immediate danger or starvation.  Barring those extremes, happiness at levels from "gee, I feel good" to "OMG!!!" becomes effortless.

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Invisiblemofo
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Veritas]
    #9151283 - 10/28/08 10:11 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I know Christianity and especially Catholicism aren't very popular here and I'll probably get flamed for this, but here you go.


Matthew 16:18-19 "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.  I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven.  Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Matthew 28:20 "And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."



Catechism of the Catholic Church

Nicene Creed
We believe in one God, the Father the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered, died and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

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OfflineKupo
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Newfound_wonder]
    #9151318 - 10/28/08 10:17 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Newfound_wonder said:
An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion unless acted on by a force.

The acceleration of an object (m) is equal to the sum of the forces acting on it.  ΣF=ma

For every object that exerts a force in nature, there is a force that is equal in magnitude and opposite in direction that acts on the object.  No isolated force exists in nature.

Think about it.




:]

kar me ma kickn!

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Newfound_wonder]
    #9151348 - 10/28/08 10:21 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Newfound_wonder said:
An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion unless acted on by a force.

The acceleration of an object (m) is equal to the sum of the forces acting on it.  ΣF=ma

For every object that exerts a force in nature, there is a force that is equal in magnitude and opposite in direction that acts on the object.  No isolated force exists in nature.

Think about it.




Sounds logical but this belief system seems a bit frayed around the edges; relativity and quantum mechanics are both a bit flashier (and fun to play with).


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Invisiblederanger
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9151393 - 10/28/08 10:27 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

:fishing:

i believe you like to fish.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deranger]
    #9151440 - 10/28/08 10:33 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I'm looking forward to skewering some tasty halibut. :crazy2:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Invisiblederanger
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Veritas]
    #9151526 - 10/28/08 10:43 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
All suffering is created through irrational thinking.




how do you know you're not irrational, from a more rational perspective?

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Invisiblederanger
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #9151546 - 10/28/08 10:45 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
I'm looking forward to skewering some tasty halibut. :crazy2:




battered halibut, in a sub bun, with cajun mayo sauce = you need to try.

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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9151598 - 10/28/08 10:53 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Ladies and gentlemen, the memetic filters are down.  Convince me that I should accept your beliefs.




I've yet to find any determinable truth. The only meaning in life is that which you give it. Pick one, and run with it. I'm an atheist jew, whose been a practicing buddhist my entire life....it works for me. I like judaism for the community, and buddhism for the contemplation and peace. They compliment each other nicely....or at least they do for me.


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deranger]
    #9151602 - 10/28/08 10:54 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
Quote:

The Cypher said:
I'm looking forward to skewering some tasty halibut. :crazy2:




battered halibut, in a sub bun, with cajun mayo sauce = you need to try.




That does sound pretty damn tasty right about now.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deranger]
    #9151665 - 10/28/08 11:02 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
Quote:

The Cypher said:
I'm looking forward to skewering some tasty halibut. :crazy2:




battered halibut, in a sub bun, with cajun mayo sauce = you need to try.




Om nom nom nom.

Sensual pleasures of the appetite is a pretty compelling belief system, not gonna lie.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Invisiblederanger
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9151738 - 10/28/08 11:13 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

hedonism nom nom :mushroom2: nom nom  :getstoned: nom  :deemsters: nom nom nom :levitate: :awesome:

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deranger]
    #9151760 - 10/28/08 11:17 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

:rofl2::thumbup:

:strokebeard:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: mofo]
    #9151780 - 10/28/08 11:22 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Ah, good old Catholicism.

Some things I've never been entirely clear about: if Jesus died for our sins, does this not give me license to sin freely?  And even I can't do this, couldn't I sin freely and then earnestly repent through Confession?

Is God responsible for all the evil and suffering in the world?  If He is, I wouldn't want to believe in such a sadistic ruler.  If He's not, why should I believe in an impotent God?

Am I unconditionally granted entry into heaven upon my death?  What am I required to believe/do/follow for this to happen?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9151788 - 10/28/08 11:24 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said: The only meaning in life is that which you give it. Pick one, and run with it.




Hence why I am asking for a good, comprehensive list of viable belief systems.  I need to know my options before I settle down.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9151797 - 10/28/08 11:26 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

How about a belief system that says you shouldn't settle your belief system down?

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: DieCommie]
    #9151803 - 10/28/08 11:29 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

As much as I strive for the lofty goal of believing six impossible and simultaneously contradictory things before breakfast each day, I sense having a chaotic belief system would make living life rather unpractical.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9151809 - 10/28/08 11:31 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Not chaotic... just open to change; usually slowly, sometimes quickly.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: DieCommie]
    #9151819 - 10/28/08 11:32 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I'll concur that it's always wise to amend beliefs that fail to adequately predict, or are logically incoherent.

But I still have to start from somewhere though; having no beliefs period is a bit of a hard thing to do.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9151850 - 10/28/08 11:38 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Well, the belief in an evolving belief system could be a start!  Attributing your life situation to your belief system is a good way to get feedback on if your system is helping or hurting you.  Otherwise, take a piece from one ideology, and a piece from another and go from there.  :awesome:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deranger]
    #9153611 - 10/29/08 10:51 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
All suffering is created through irrational thinking.




how do you know you're not irrational, from a more rational perspective?




If I'm not suffering, then I am rational enough to create the effect I am after.  :shrug:

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InvisibleChronic7

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9153648 - 10/29/08 11:04 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Simply keep those filters down & stay open, thats all thats needed in any situation imo, stay open

Can you believe in something to do that? I dnt think so...
Imo the very act of believing in something keeps those filters veiling...as any belief is a rigid viewpoint, ie not open.


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Offlineeve69
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9153660 - 10/29/08 11:06 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Ladies and gentlemen, the memetic filters are down.  Convince me that I should accept your beliefs.




Ah, so sorry but I payed too much to just give my system away. In fact, it's priceless and something I couldn't replace now. You'll just have to find your own. Good luck.


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...or something






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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Chronic7]
    #9154071 - 10/29/08 12:44 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

why does a belief system have to be rigid? isn't a true belief system only formed after examining some type of evidence? so if new evidence is proposed, your current belief system should in no way resist it, but change to incorporate it, whether that means old evidence is debunked and removed or just putting 2 and 2 together for a more unified belief system.


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If you spare a little of your imagination . . .

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OfflineThinkGreen
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9154097 - 10/29/08 12:51 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Existentialism/Pragmatism ftw.


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"The ubermenchen...Who has organized the chaos of his passions, given style to his character, and become creative. Aware of life's terrors, he affirms life without resentment." -Friedrich Nietzsche

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Invisiblemofo
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9156726 - 10/29/08 09:55 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Ah, good old Catholicism.

Some things I've never been entirely clear about: if Jesus died for our sins, does this not give me license to sin freely?




Of course you can sin freely, you have free will.  However, you will be offending God by doing so.  Jesus instructed his followers that they should keep the Commandments, and forgive the trespasses of others.  Yes, he died for our sins, and all sins can be forgiven, but if you believe in Jesus then it should follow that you will want to obey him.  Conversely, a life marked by repeated and grave sin is a sign of a lack of faith.

Quote:

And even I can't do this, couldn't I sin freely and then earnestly repent through Confession?




Technically, yes, but the key word there is earnestly.  I'm sure very few people sin with the intent that they will turn their back on God forever.  People sin in a moment of selfishness and weakness in the face of temptation.  Sometimes, this goes on for a while, years sometimes.  But for a confession to be valid, there must be some conversion of the spirit.  Ideally, this conversion will come from an overflowing of divine love, called perfect contrition.  However, sins may also be forgiven if the sinner has reached a state of imperfect contrition, despising the ugliness of the sin, fearing hell, or something of that nature.

Quote:

Is God responsible for all the evil and suffering in the world?




No, Satan is the worker of all evil.  God has willed this because he wants all to have free will.  I remember reading somewhere that angels also have free will, but that unlike us they only have one act of will, and it is irrevocable.  Therefore Satan, a fallen angel, is God's adversary forever, and can never repent.

Quote:

Am I unconditionally granted entry into heaven upon my death?  What am I required to believe/do/follow for this to happen?




No. You must still receive your personal judgment, which comes from God alone.  However, God has entrusted the care of souls to the Church, so if you continually strive to grow in faith, hope and charity throughout your life and abide by the teachings and precepts of the Church, you have no reason to doubt your salvation (although humility is always a virtue).  Oh, and you'll need to be baptized (if you haven't been already) and confirmed.

The 5 precepts of the Church:

1-Attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation, and keep those days holy.

2-Confess your sins at least once a year.

3-Receive the sacrament of the Eucharist at least during the Easter season.

4-Observe the days of fasting and abstinence (from meat) established by the Church.

5-Help to provide for the needs of the Church.


The teachings are Biblically based and are learned in confirmation classes and by listening to the readings and homily at Mass.  The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the standard text for the teachings of the Church.

Hopefully I got all that right, that was exhausting.

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Offlineyoubreakyoubuy
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: mofo]
    #9156831 - 10/29/08 10:12 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

How about the Society of Friends?  A.K.A.  Quakers.

About two to three times a month I show up and sit with a group of folks for an hour.  It's great.  Afterwards I feel kinder and gentler all day.  I realize that I'm not perfect and that that's okay.  I also feel more tolerant of others and regard myself as a generally better person.  Better mood.  The whole nine yards.  It's essentially group meditation.

In all the literature I've read there's a heavy emphasis on the Holy Ghost versus the other two of the trinity.  Also a heavy emphasis on listening rather than talking.  But that's the literature that I've read and I haven't tried too read much.  Nothing at all is said about belief during worship service.  No sermonizing and no preaching.  Every now and then some one will get up and say something if they are moved to do so.  About as far as any dogma goes, one of the members called it something like unprogrammed worship.  And that's about as much as I've ever heard explained.  Other than the bible study I attended once, I've never heard a word mentioned of God or Jesus, satan or heaven or hell.  Or a whole host of other things that I heard of growing up in a southern baptist church.


I don't know what I believe.  But I know what I like.

EDIT--For a few weeks in a row I walked in late.  The place is a one room building from the 20's and definitely not a place where you can sneak in quietly.  I mentioned afterwards to one of the regular members about how I felt somewhat guilty about arriving late all the time.  He replied by alluding to guilt as sin and how we can't ever seem to get forget it.  From the twinkle in his eye and the laugh on his tongue it seemed as if he meant it as a criticism of the "church's" obsession with sin.  Everybody there seems non-retarded and down to earth.  It's as if they've all looked a little deeper into their faith, more so than any other congregation I've been a part.

Best of all:  It's not a fad religion.  It's been established now for the better part of 400 years.  As an organized religion it's withstood the test of time pretty well.

Edited by youbreakyoubuy (10/29/08 10:25 PM)

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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: mofo]
    #9156994 - 10/29/08 10:42 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mofo said:
I remember reading somewhere that angels also have free will, but that unlike us they only have one act of will, and it is irrevocable.  Therefore Satan, a fallen angel, is God's adversary forever, and can never repent.




:haha:

Why doesn't God love Satan?

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OfflineNexion
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Veritas]
    #9158473 - 10/30/08 09:40 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
how do you know you're not irrational, from a more rational perspective?



You obviously didn't read thoroughly:

Quote:

Veritas said:
Suffering is a mental imposition we place upon ourselves through the idea that reality should be different than it IS.




If your rational you shouldn't need to be more rational.

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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: mofo]
    #9159080 - 10/30/08 12:29 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Actually, free will doesn't exist. And as far as Satan having free will, the Bible is pretty clear he doesn't. Here's just a few verses for you:

Isaiah 45:7
"Forming light and creating darkness; making peace, and creating evil - I Jehovah do all these things."

2 Thessalonians 2:11
"And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them believe a lie." - He's talking about Satan being sent by God here

Satan is not an autonomous independent agent from God, he is just another angel, one who carries out God's will. But if God created evil, does that mean that God himself is evil? Paul answers this in Romans, as well as Isaiah.

Romans 9 (read all of it for a better understanding)
"What then shall we say? Is there not unrighteousness with God? Let it not be!....Yes, rather, O man, who are you answering against God? Shall the thing formed say to the One forming it, Why did You make me like this? Or does not the potter have authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make one vessel to honor, and one to dishonor?"

So why is there evil in the world? I believe it is God's grand drama. All of our human dramas are based off His archetype (I know some would say it's just life itself - same thing in my opinion) - A setting, plot, enemy, and Hero. Look at every mythology since the dawn of the world - they've been obsessed with the idea of a hero. Making a name for oneself, to be remembered, to be the man with the biggest phallic symbol, the biggest steeple, the biggest pyramids.. I think these are just perversions of the true Hero of our world who is Christ, a humble Servant who desired nothing in this world but to conquer a Lie.

All over the Bible it talks about the world being created by, for, and through Christ. If we take this to be true, then God created a world where He knew evil was going to take place and would then send His Son to save us. What's so beautiful is what Christ went through for us. He probably had it worse off than any of us ever will. Some people would say that if Jesus is God and man, then his suffering loses all value in their eyes, because it must have been easy for him being God. I agree, it was easy for Him, but if I'm drowning in a river, and someone reaches out to save me from a boat, that's like me saying "No, it's unfair, you have an advantage." You could call the advantage unfair if you want, but it's the only reason He is of any use to us. The earth truly is a place of drowning, full of sorrow and evil, and the way out is to simply ask God for a hand.

Paul says in Romans that at one point in his life, he did not know the difference between good and evil and was therefore not under judgment at that time (Ch. 7 I think?). This is the answer to all those who have never heard the doctrine of Christ - babies, those who lived prior to His coming, etc. - they will be judged only for what they know. Anyone who proclaims eternal damnation on anyone is an idiot, only God is a true Judge and I completely believe that His judgment will be far more pure, true, and just than I could ever contemplate.

Does the fact that God created evil excuse us from our sin? No, because being humans we have the ability to choose between right and wrong, we are not let off the hook - don't get the power to choose confused with free will, they aren't the same. But we are excused by our belief in Christ taking on our sin. I think someone who looks deeply into life and the Bible (if they believe what it says is true) will see free will, defined as the power to make choices unconstrained by external circumstances, is only an illusion.


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OfflineApJunkie
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9159092 - 10/30/08 12:32 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I think the church of having your girlfriend give me head is probably the one you should join

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: ApJunkie]
    #9159107 - 10/30/08 12:36 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

:yawn:


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Nexion]
    #9159352 - 10/30/08 01:39 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nexion said:
Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
how do you know you're not irrational, from a more rational perspective?



You obviously didn't read thoroughly:

Quote:

Veritas said:
Suffering is a mental imposition we place upon ourselves through the idea that reality should be different than it IS.




If your rational you shouldn't need to be more rational.




yes, it was meant to be an off-topic question. 

the question came to mind, and i liked it, so i asked :laugh:

people like to think and act like their rational, jus pokin fun.

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OfflineApJunkie
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9159520 - 10/30/08 02:40 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
:yawn:




I feel exactly the same about your bullshit religion

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: ApJunkie]
    #9159686 - 10/30/08 03:22 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

i could tell from your first post.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9159687 - 10/30/08 03:22 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
So I'm in the market for a belief system...




"Having a system is as fatal as having no system at all"


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: mr_kite]
    #9159834 - 10/30/08 03:59 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

WTF does that mean?


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Icelander]
    #9159899 - 10/30/08 04:17 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

We're all gonna die someday. :shrug:


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9159904 - 10/30/08 04:18 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

No shit?:whoa:


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Icelander]
    #9159957 - 10/30/08 04:29 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

It's a rule for learning. It means when you think you've got it nailed, that's just as bad not even bothering to try and nail it. It makes sense to me when I say it right anyway


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: mr_kite]
    #9159984 - 10/30/08 04:34 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

oh


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9160372 - 10/30/08 06:07 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Read Holy Quran if you're sincerely seeking the truth with an open mind and heart...

I don’t like reciting Quran for Christians or non-believers. But you may respect Dr. Rick Strassman so a recite a short passage from his new book “Inner Paths to Outer Space”.  He describes mystical experiences in DMT trips: “Time no longer passes in its normal manner, but instead seems suspended or subdumed in an eternity containing past, present and future. Space is no longer limited, but at the same time, all existance rests in the smallest possible unit of space. The self can now hold and feel at utter peace with life, good and evil are seen in their deepest reality, and the nature of free will is clearly percieved. In a mystical experience, individuals are certain of the soul’s existence without a body and are thus sure of its existence after body’s death. IT IS KNOWN AS A CERTAINTY THAT THERE EXISTS AN UNIMAGINABLY POWERFUL CREATOR AND SUSTAINER OF REALITY, AND OF YOU PARTICULAR. THIS CREATOR IS UNBORN, UNCREATED, UNDYING AND UNCHANGING. The  ecstasy and searing bliss accompanying such experiences, though previously unequaled in intensity, is nevertheless less striking than peace and equanimity that supports and underlies this bliss.”  (page 58).
This is very similar to definition God in a short but very important verse of Quran: “SAY: HE, ALLAH, IS ONE. ALLAH IS HE ON WHOM ALL DEPEND. HE BEGETS NOT, NOR IS HE BEGOTTEN. AND NONE IS LIKE HIM.” (The Unity).
These are the words of God. Quran has also hundreds of verses warning people from the day of resurrection and judgement and horrific fire of hell. Just one of them: “EVERY HUMAN BEING IS BOUND TO TASTE DEATH: BUT ONLY ON THE DAY OF RESURRECTION WILL YOU BE REQUITED IN FULL [FOR WHATEVER YOU HAVE DONE] - WHEREUPON HE THAT SHALL BE DRAWN AWAY FROM THE FIRE AND BROUGHT INTO PARADISE WILL INDEED HAVE GAINED A TRIUMPH: FOR THE LIFE OF THIS WORLD IS NOTHING BUT AN ENJOYMENT OF SELF-DELUSION.” (3.185)

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9160855 - 10/30/08 07:56 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Send me 30$ and you'll permanently escape existential insecurity!

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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9160944 - 10/30/08 08:12 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
I agree, it was easy for Him, but if I'm drowning in a river, and someone reaches out to save me from a boat, that's like me saying "No, it's unfair, you have an advantage."




Um, that's all well and good dude, but you also said he's the one who pushed you into the river in the first place.

:confused:

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #9160983 - 10/30/08 08:18 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

youbreakyoubuy said:
How about the Society of Friends?  A.K.A.  Quakers.




I prefer the United Society of Believers in Christ’s Second Appearing, or the Shakers to be frank.  At least they made good furniture.  :thumbup:

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
The earth truly is a place of drowning, full of sorrow and evil, and the way out is to simply ask God for a hand.




So believing in God will cure my syphilis?  Or stop this agonizing, chronic pain I've had ever since I got shot in the Iraq war?

Quote:

Dervish said:
Read Holy Quran if you're sincerely seeking the truth with an open mind and heart...




Seems awfully similar to the Bible, only less original.  After all, Jesus was around 600 years before Mohammed.  Why should I choose Islam over Christianity?

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Send me 30$ and you'll permanently escape existential insecurity!




Sounds like I'll be trading existential for financial insecurity.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #9161615 - 10/30/08 10:12 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

it would be more like he created me using parts of the river and I would die without Him helping me out.

if your reason for hating God is because of this, I'd still take a lifetime of suffering for eternal bliss, wouldn't you..? sounds like an incredible deal, not unfair. of course you don't believe in eternal bliss from what I gather, but I hope you see what I'm saying.. we shouldn't hate God or disbelieve in him because we see suffering in the world.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9161625 - 10/30/08 10:13 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:we shouldn't hate God or disbelieve in him because we see suffering in the world.




Perhaps not, but I'd rather not believe in a God who sees suffering in this earthly life and chooses to ignore it.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9161665 - 10/30/08 10:21 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

maybe knowing suffering is the only way to enjoy bliss more than someone "born" into bliss :shrug:

if evidence led you to believe a God had to create this world (I'm not saying it does for you, but it does for me), why would you not want to believe in a God offering you eternal bliss after all of your suffering? just because you had to suffer??


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9161764 - 10/30/08 10:41 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
maybe knowing suffering is the only way to enjoy bliss more than someone "born" into bliss :shrug:

if evidence led you to believe a God had to create this world (I'm not saying it does for you, but it does for me), why would you not want to believe in a God offering you eternal bliss after all of your suffering? just because you had to suffer??




Because the offer isn't given to me by God, it is given to me by other faulty humans (many with likely ulterior motives). :tongue:

Edited by Sleepwalker (10/30/08 10:42 PM)

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #9161787 - 10/30/08 10:45 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

okay, now you have left the premise in which we were arguing. i can do nothing more here since you've seen fit to leave the argument in favor of returning to old "tried and true" methods..

the problem is, many people get caught on the idea that since there is suffering, there can be no God, or atleast not a good One. that's what I'm arguing against here. if you want to return to the topic, feel free.

anyways, you say it was given to you by other faulty humans, but if God exists I'm quite sure he can accomplish whatever he wants in this world, if that means telling us something about Himself to live our lives by. if God exists, I can't see it being any other way. what do you think? lets hypothetically say He exists, would he just create us and say, "good luck". yeah our minds are pretty good, but so far no unified theory or any type of explanation has worked for why we exist by just thinking..if so, we'd all be able to think it.

to me it seems the only way of ever understanding existence would have to be from supernatural Divine knowledge, something from outside this universe. if the doctrines make sense, maybe it's true. the problem is truth requires root, stem, and branches - the proto-indo-european d-r = truth, tree, and druid. in order to formulate a working logic, it must have root stem and branches. one cannot simply put God under a microscope and say, "I can't see him in this particular, therefore he must not exist.." this is what reductionist like Richard Dawkins and John Stewart Mill try to do. it's irrational and illogical to think that would be possible.. it truly requires "thing upon thing", forming a straight line in God's logic.

Edited by myriadeyes (10/30/08 10:59 PM)

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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9161844 - 10/30/08 10:57 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

You asked, "why would you not want to believe in a God offering you eternal bliss after all of your suffering?"

I was simply pointing out that God hasn't offered that to me.  The only offers of that sort that have come my way have been through humans.

IF God offered me eternal bliss and I was 100% sure the offer came from GOD, I would definitely take it.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #9161859 - 10/30/08 11:02 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

keep studying and who knows, maybe one day you'll believe He did, maybe not. the most important thing is to keep your mind open to any and all ideas. He's not going to come down and talk to you, but if you study the logic He gave to us, I think you may find it makes sense. I'd be perfectly willing to denounce Christianity if someone showed me any solid evidence suggesting the contrary. I'm just going on the evidence I've found..

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9161914 - 10/30/08 11:13 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

The thing is, I don't know whether or not there is a God.  The only evidence I can see pointing towards that is through the testimony of human-written books and other people, who may all be fallible.

I'm therefore faced with the choice: do I behave God's laws to be rewarded with a blissful afterlife, or do I shirk God's laws in order to enjoy what life I have left before I die.

If I choose the first option, and God exists, I'm granted an eternity of pleasure.  My earthly life is not very happy (at least, subjectively, following the traditional Christian creed does not particularly strike my fancy), but this made up for in the afterlife.  0 + 10 = 10.
If I choose the first option, and God doesn't exist, I just wasted my earthly time following made-up laws and squandered any possibility of earthly pleasures before I die.  My earthly life is not very happy and then I die.  0 + 0 = 0.
If I choose the second option, and God exists, what happens?  I suppose this varies according to your faith, but most monotheistic religions preach that I'll be doomed to hellfire.  I live it up now but am doomed to hellfire.  10 + 0 = 10.
If I choose the second option, and God doesn't exist, I've obtained the maximum amount of pleasure that I can out of this earthly life before my spirit is extinguished.  I live it up now and then die. 10 + 0 = 10.

Choosing to sin now and enjoy earthly pleasures therefore grants me 10 pts of satisfaction whether God exists or not.  (And in fact, I might even consider living eternally in hellfire to be better off than ceasing to be.)  This is in contrast to choosing to obey God's will now, which grants me an average of 5 pts of satisfaction.

From the game theory analysis of the situation (Pascal's wager, essentially), I therefore conclude that it is to my benefit to sin now, regardless of whether or not God exists.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9161939 - 10/30/08 11:17 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

One more bump for judaism, there isnt an eternal hell. :thumbup:


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9161951 - 10/30/08 11:19 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

So what happens if I sin copiously before I die?

Or is Judaism more like what new Catholicism is turning into (i.e. there is no brimstone and hellfire, but rather a state of being away from God)?


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9161974 - 10/30/08 11:22 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

The concept of "sin" doesnt really translate over into judaism. We havent yet lost the concept of metaphor that most western "religions" have been so eager to abandon.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9161998 - 10/30/08 11:25 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Now I'm intrigued--please explain what you mean by sin being a metaphor.

So does this mean that regardless of my actions on this Earth, I will still live happily in the afterlife after my death?


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9162034 - 10/30/08 11:30 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Allot of jews dont even believe in a literal afterlife. I'm atheist.:shrug:


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9162041 - 10/30/08 11:31 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I read somewhere that 50% of the jews in Israel identify as secular.

EDIT:

Quote:

So what happens if I sin copiously before I die?




The orthodox answer would be something along the line of "purgatory". Reincarnation is also mentioned throughout the Tanakh.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9162050 - 10/30/08 11:32 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Isn't Judaism by definition a monotheistic religion?

I mean, you might be a Jew because your mother was a Jew, or because you like the culture and traditions, but to consider yourself following the Judaic faith you must believe in the God of the Torah, no?


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9162074 - 10/30/08 11:37 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Isn't Judaism by definition a monotheistic religion?

I mean, you might be a Jew because your mother was a Jew, or because you like the culture and traditions, but to consider yourself following the Judaic faith you must believe in the God of the Torah, no?




Some would say yes, and some would say no.:shrug:

Its more a set of practices than anything. The idea of faith, and belief as exist in Christianity arent really compatible with judaism. Even the idea of salvation is completely different. The salvation of judaism is in your every day life not in some pipe dream in the sky.

I'd say one of the main things all jew agree on is the inherent value of debate. Nothing is simply accepted.  :arabs:


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9162089 - 10/30/08 11:39 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said: I'd say one of the main things all jew agree on is the inherent value of debate.




I can definitely attest to this after having read The Chosen.

It's mildly ironic how that debate icon you chose is {arabs}, too.  Makes me want to declare a holy war.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9162091 - 10/30/08 11:40 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

One thing you don't seem to have taken into consideration with your math analogy is that the value of the afterlife is far more than the value of this temporal life.  How much time do you have here?  80 years give or take?  Compare that with eternity.  Also, I wouldn't give religious adherence a 0 on the fun scale either.  I would say for most, its probably in the middle range somewhere.  You can still enjoy life, just avoid the excesses.  When I was younger I led a life of excess and I was actually pretty miserable.  What kind of sins are you hesitant to give up, anyway?

In terms of having only the testimony of others as evidence of God, I would say to you that it is possible to know God on a personal level.  I could offer some suggestions on how to do this, but its probably best approached by using your own intuition.  Just pay attention to it.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: mofo]
    #9162117 - 10/30/08 11:43 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mofo said:
One thing you don't seem to have taken into consideration with your math analogy is that the value of the afterlife is far more than the value of this temporal life.  How much time do you have here?  80 years give or take?  Compare that with eternity.  Also, I wouldn't give religious adherence a 0 on the fun scale either.  I would say for most, its probably in the middle range somewhere.  You can still enjoy life, just avoid the excesses.  When I was younger I led a life of excess and I was actually pretty miserable.  What kind of sins are you hesitant to give up, anyway?




Murder, thievery, lying, profanity, not going to Church, not praying, pre-marital sex, sodomy, coveting others, the list goes on.  I don't want to have to feel guilty about anything, or eliminate any possible experience from my time here on Earth.  :shrug:

Quote:

In terms of having only the testimony of others as evidence of God, I would say to you that it is possible to know God on a personal level.  I could offer some suggestions on how to do this, but its probably best approached by using your own intuition.  Just pay attention to it.




I agree that one can experience God (psychedelics, for one thing) on one's own terms.  However, these personal revelations rarely, if ever, come with a caveat to obey certain rules, a promise of an eternal afterlife, or a threat of eternal damnation.  It's these latter parts that comes from other fallible, power-hungry people IMO--and not from my own intuition.


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: mofo]
    #9162118 - 10/30/08 11:43 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mofo said:
One thing you don't seem to have taken into consideration with your math analogy is that the value of the afterlife is far more than the value of this temporal life.  How much time do you have here?  80 years give or take?  Compare that with eternity.  Also, I wouldn't give religious adherence a 0 on the fun scale either.  I would say for most, its probably in the middle range somewhere.  You can still enjoy life, just avoid the excesses.  When I was younger I led a life of excess and I was actually pretty miserable.  What kind of sins are you hesitant to give up, anyway?

In terms of having only the testimony of others as evidence of God, I would say to you that it is possible to know God on a personal level.  I could offer some suggestions on how to do this, but its probably best approached by using your own intuition.  Just pay attention to it.




Post number 666  :headbanger: lolz


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9162145 - 10/30/08 11:47 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Quote:

blewmeanie said: I'd say one of the main things all jew agree on is the inherent value of debate.




I can definitely attest to this after having read The Chosen.

It's mildly ironic how that debate icon you chose is {arabs}, too.  Makes me want to declare a holy war.




The Talmud which is in many ways far more important in Judaism that the Tanakh (old testament before the horrible translation) is just an enormous record of debate between rabbi's.


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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9162209 - 10/30/08 11:56 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Ever listen to Klezmer music?

You can definitely here the arabian influence


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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9162257 - 10/31/08 12:03 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
The thing is, I don't know whether or not there is a God.  The only evidence I can see pointing towards that is through the testimony of human-written books and other people, who may all be fallible.




What about the beauty of life? Humans, sex, trees, love, stars, everything..doesn't it seem to complex and thought out to just be the product of chance? What is chance anyways? Simply the allotment of events, it is not a generator in and of itself. I could go on about this but I won't, unless you want to talk about it. Please watch this video, I'm no expert and can't claim their ideas to be without flaw, but the sheer beauty and ideas they present put me on my face. I made a thread about it to see if their facts check out and what the shroomerites thought. The thread is here. I swear the movie's worth watching, and not affiliated with any religion.


Quote:

The Cypher said:
If I choose the first option, and God exists, I'm granted an eternity of pleasure.  My earthly life is not very happy (at least, subjectively, following the traditional Christian creed does not particularly strike my fancy), but this made up for in the afterlife.  0 + 10 = 10.




I know Christianity doesn't sound fun, but it's not bad. It's very similar to Veritas' idea of not being attached - if you aren't attached to this world, and realize in the end all physical things are impermanent, you are freed from all suffering. Yeah physical pleasures will certainly decrease, but I don't believe that earthly pleasures of 75 years can be compared with eternal pleasure - they don't even deserve to be in the same math equation.

So first off, earthly pleasures might be a 6, definitely not a 0, but true satisfaction with life might jump up to a 9 if the words turn out to really be God's (I know we're speaking hypothetically here), since He would know.

Quote:

The Cypher said:
If I choose the first option, and God doesn't exist, I just wasted my earthly time following made-up laws and squandered any possibility of earthly pleasures before I die.  My earthly life is not very happy and then I die.  0 + 0 = 0.




I know this is a hard concept to grasp, I can't fully either, but have you really wasted your life if you can't remember it? How important was it that you enjoyed physical pleasure yesterday? last year? your whole life? what about once your dead? If nothing exists after death, I don't see why it matters if I did something awesome in life or not. I'm not going to exist for eternity :uhoh: . I know it's hard to understand, but think about it for a while, it may take 10 years..I don't know.

Quote:

The Cypher said:
If I choose the second option, and God exists, what happens?  I suppose this varies according to your faith, but most monotheistic religions preach that I'll be doomed to hellfire.  I live it up now but am doomed to hellfire.  10 + 0 = 10.





Yeah I'm not sure yet if I believe the Bible equates hell with eternal suffering or simply non-existence. From what I've gathered, non-existence, being apart from God, would be eternal suffering in a way. I don't know enough to say either way.

Quote:

The Cypher said:
From the game theory analysis of the situation (Pascal's wager, essentially), I therefore conclude that it is to my benefit to sin now, regardless of whether or not God exists.




Once again, I don't think even a lifetime of bliss and infinite bliss could begin to be compared, much less both be equated to be 10 points.

I don't know man, maybe Pascal's wager isn't all it's cracked up to be..:shrug:

p.s. it just turned into the SPOOKERY!


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9162276 - 10/31/08 12:05 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

if you aren't attached to this world, and realize in the end all physical things are impermanent, you are freed from all suffering




Wouldnt realizing you are attached to this world, and hence impermanent yourself make more sense?


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Invisiblemofo
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9162353 - 10/31/08 12:15 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Murder, thievery, lying, profanity, not going to Church, not praying, pre-marital sex, sodomy, coveting others, the list goes on.  I don't want to have to feel guilty about anything, or eliminate any possible experience from my time here on Earth.  :shrug:.




Well, I'm not advocating this or anything, but Constantine and others are said to have waited more or less until they were on their death bed to be baptized, since baptism is said to wash away completely every mark of sin of your former life, but you can only do it once.  But anyway, murder?

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9162378 - 10/31/08 12:19 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
What about the beauty of life? Humans, sex, trees, love, stars, everything..doesn't it seem to complex and thought out to just be the product of chance? What is chance anyways? Simply the allotment of events, it is not a generator in and of itself. I could go on about this but I won't, unless you want to talk about it. Please watch this video, I'm no expert and can't claim their ideas to be without flaw, but the sheer beauty and ideas they present put me on my face. I made a thread about it to see if their facts check out and what the shroomerites thought. The thread is here. I swear the movie's worth watching, and not affiliated with any religion.




I didn't watch the movie, but in the first place the question of whether or not something created the world is an entirely different question as to whether the God of the Judeo-Christian tradition exists.  Couldn't God simply be a blind watchmaker, setting up his creation to tick and then stepping away completely?

Secondly, it's a hard concept to grasp, but the theory of evolution has been tested time and time again--and each time it's successfully held up to the evidence.  It's very hard wrapping our minds around the concept that evolution takes millions of years to take place, and that something so complicated as the human organism could have evolved instead of have being designed, but this is a concept that has been tested, verified, and examined by tens of thousands of scientists who agree on its veracity for now.  Besides, isn't this finite concept an easier idea to grasp than the concept of an infinite, unknowable, mystical, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent being?

Thirdly, you're using selective reasoning to choose examples of things that seem like they were designed.  What about violence, death, suffering, decomposing maggots on a rotting corpse, serial killers, satanists, animal abusers, genetically deformed children, mental retardation, chromosomal abnormalities, hate, rage, criminals, murder, etc...?  All of these point towards we being simply a fluke of chance and natural selection; hardly a perfect design creation from a perfect God.

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Once again, I don't think even a lifetime of bliss and infinite bliss could begin to be compared, much less both be equated to be 10 points.




I agree that the keyword infinite does stack the deck a little in your favor.  But again, it then boils down to whether or not we should trust this proclamation of eternal life.  If I were to come up to you, and say that if you performed a grotesque sexual act on me for the rest of your life you would be rewarded with eternal, unfathomable bliss forever after you die, you wouldn't believe me.  But if you run a cost-benefit analysis similar to Pascal's Wager on it, you would be forced to come to the conclusion that any material suffering you undergo in this world would be worth the infinite reward if I'm actually telling you the truth.

Would you still accept my offer?  I think not.  The key issue here is whether or not this infinite bliss promise is trustworthy, and considering the only places I have heard tell me this have been human, I choose not to trust them, especially when their assertion is unprovable (for who can come back to the dead to tell me if I should accept their great offer?)


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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9162404 - 10/31/08 12:24 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
(for who can come back to the dead to tell me if I should accept their great offer?)




Jesus, duh.

Oh wait...he's one of those stories written by humans, again...

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: mofo]
    #9162413 - 10/31/08 12:25 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mofo said:
Quote:

The Cypher said:
Murder, thievery, lying, profanity, not going to Church, not praying, pre-marital sex, sodomy, coveting others, the list goes on.  I don't want to have to feel guilty about anything, or eliminate any possible experience from my time here on Earth.  :shrug:.




Well, I'm not advocating this or anything, but Constantine and others are said to have waited more or less until they were on their death bed to be baptized, since baptism is said to wash away completely every mark of sin of your former life, but you can only do it once.  But anyway, murder?




Sonuvabitch, I've already been baptized a Lutheran.

And, sure, I figure at one point in my life before I die I might as well kill someone.  I'm a person who believes in experiencing things, and building my character and set of values over what I experience, rather than idly postulate empty morals over something that I'd never dare do.  Be it unintentionally, or intentionally, I wouldn't want to believe something that would damn me to hell for doing it, especially when apparently soldiers or people who kill for a good cause are exempt in the eyes of the Church.

To quote from A Technical Manual for Independent Contractors:

Quote:

Some people would say that a hit man is an emotionless, cold-blooded killing machine that he has no fear and no belief in God. On the contrary, a hit man has a wide range of feelings. He may be excruciatingly tender towards his woman. He may be extremely compassionate towards the elderly or disabled. He may have a strong aversion to the useless killing of wildlife. He may even be religious in his own way.

What the professional lacks is remorse. He feels no guilt.

I'm sure your emotions have run full-scale over the past few days or weeks.

There was a fleeting moment just before you pulled the trigger when you wondered if lightening would strike you then and there. And afterwards, a short burst of panic as you quickly looked around to make sure no witnesses were lurking.

But other than that, you felt absolutely nothing. And you are shocked by that nothingness. You had expected this movement to be a spectacular point in your life. You had wondered if you would feel compassion for the victim, immediate guilt, or even experience direct intervention by the hand of God. But you weren't even feeling sickened by the sight of the body.

The first few seconds of nothingness give you an almost uncontrollable urge to laugh out loud. you break into a wide grin. Everything you have been taught about life and it value was a fallacy. A dirty rotten lie!

Life is notyou know beyond a shadow of a doubt that your own life is just as frail and valueless. What you have done could just as easily and unexpectedly been done to you, despite your fighting ability, your weapons expertise, your efforts to protect yourself. The realization is both sobering and shocking.

Like a machine, you do what is necessary to cover your tracks. As you leave the scene, that first burst of cool night air hits you and panic sets in. You have to force yourself to resist the urge to run!

It took only ten minutes to casually stroll to the victim's house. Covering that same distance back to your waiting car seems to take ten hours! Are people watching you from behind those closed drapes, memorizing your description as they dial the police? Can they hear the pounding of your heart above the noise of their television sets as you struggle to control your breathing and make it even?

Once inside the safety of your automobile, you change you clothing and disguise and alter the gun barrel as quickly as possible. Then, both hands gripping the steering wheel, you drive. Your eyes are constantly searching the roadside. You can't afford and accident, traffic violation, or even to miss a turn in your planned route. you struggle to keep the speed of the auto within set limits. Like you feet, the car seems to want to run.

With the disposal of each piece of evidence, your fear eases. By the time you arrive at the airport, you begin to feel silly about your unnecessary panic.

On the trip back home, you begin to think of the shocking realizations about the real value of life that you experienced after pulling the trigger professionally for the first time. Your own life takes on new meaning. Never again will you strive to accumulate wealth. Instead, you will pack the time you have with the things that make life enjoyable, interesting and exciting. You will live each day to the fullest. The acceptance of the valuelessness of life has give your own life value.

After you have arrived hoe, the events that took place take on a dreamlike quality. you don't dwell on them, you don't worry. You don't have nightmare. You don't fear ghosts. When thoughts of the hit got through your mind, it's almost as though you are recalling some show you saw on television.

By the time you collect the balance of your fee, the doubts and fears of discovery have faded. Those feelings have been replaced by cockiness, a feeling of superiority, a new independence and a new self-assurance.

Your biggest problem now is learning to deal with your ego.




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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9162639 - 10/31/08 01:27 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:

I didn't watch the movie, but in the first place the question of whether or not something created the world is an entirely different question as to whether the God of the Judeo-Christian tradition exists.  Couldn't God simply be a blind watchmaker, setting up his creation to tick and then stepping away completely?




I thought you were denying the existence of a God altogether. I wasn't trying to prove a Judeo-Christian God in that argument. I don't buy the idea that God is just a blind watchmaker. Don't make sense.

Quote:

The Cypher said:

Secondly, it's a hard concept to grasp, but the theory of evolution has been tested time and time again--and each time it's successfully held up to the evidence.  It's very hard wrapping our minds around the concept that evolution takes millions of years to take place, and that something so complicated as the human organism could have evolved instead of have being designed, but this is a concept that has been tested, verified, and examined by tens of thousands of scientists who agree on its veracity for now.  Besides, isn't this finite concept an easier idea to grasp than the concept of an infinite, unknowable, mystical, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent being?




Unfortunately, this hard evidence you've found I have not seen. But the idea of microevolution and adaptation in no way disproves the Judeo-Christian God. As far millions of years and all that, I don't think that's hard evidence either. It's been proven that enviromental factors drastically effect the half life and apparent age of elements. If a deluge really happened, which is a major story retained by many cultures all over the world, the immense pressure created would drastically change how old the earth appears to be by our dating methods. I'm not counting out that the world is possibly millions of years old, but just because it's been tested time and time again doesn't mean it's reliable, the tests could be faulty. Maybe man evolved from bacterial piss and semen, but I still find there to be evidence that our complexity hints at design. How did men and women evolve independently and simultaneously and still work key-in-lock when having sex? All of the necessary mechanisms work like a charm - if there were the tiniest differences between the two, it wouldn't work. I personally am not sure how that's possible. Evolved instead of designed?  How, by chance?  All it is is a mathmatical term defining what might happen next. It doesn't drive any type of creation or evolution, it must be driven by something.

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Thirdly, you're using selective reasoning to choose examples of things that seem like they were designed.  What about violence, death, suffering, decomposing maggots on a rotting corpse, serial killers, satanists, animal abusers, genetically deformed children, mental retardation, chromosomal abnormalities, hate, rage, criminals, murder, etc...?  All of these point towards we being simply a fluke of chance and natural selection; hardly a perfect design creation from a perfect God.




No I wasn't, I was just saying these things are so complex and incredible, where did they come from? Every single thing you just listed was designed also, and I totally believe that. Why do they point towards a fluke of chance? Please answer me this. I never claimed for time and space to be perfect by the moral perspective your adhering to. Why couldn't it be perfect for His purposes?

Quote:

The Cypher said:
I agree that the keyword infinite does stack the deck a little in your favor.  But again, it then boils down to whether or not we should trust this proclamation of eternal life.




I totally agree. I was just arguing against the "points" you put forward.

Quote:

The Cypher said:
If I were to come up to you, and say that if you performed a grotesque sexual act on me for the rest of your life you would be rewarded with eternal, unfathomable bliss forever after you die, you wouldn't believe me.  But if you run a cost-benefit analysis similar to Pascal's Wager on it, you would be forced to come to the conclusion that any material suffering you undergo in this world would be worth the infinite reward if I'm actually telling you the truth. Would you still accept my offer?  I think not. 




Your absolutely right. The only question is, does the evidence you've provided me lead me to believe it's true. I severely doubt it would in this parallel dimensin we're inhabiting, but if it did, by my nature I think I'd have to do it..:hissyfit:

Quote:

The Cypher said:
The key issue here is whether or not this infinite bliss promise is trustworthy, and considering the only places I have heard tell me this have been human, I choose not to trust them, especially when their assertion is unprovable (for who can come back to the dead to tell me if I should accept their great offer?)




I agree, but your entire last post had nothing really to do with that, so I was simply debating your "logic of the 10 points".

Nothing is provable. God's not going to come down and talk to you, so you can rule out ever being proved anything relating to God. I understand the logic that God should talk to you if he's real, because he talked to all those other people, or atleast they claim he did. It would be nice if God talked to me, and very reassuring, but until then I've got to continue searching for the truth and engaging people with opposite mind sets to see if they've got anything that moves me from my position. I'm not immovable. But what I believe God did say to those people makes perfect sense, and the logic I've encountered has only affirmed it.


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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: mofo]
    #9162645 - 10/31/08 01:29 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

That's a complete joke and lie. Constantine was an idiot. He's the whole reason we have the Catholic church, who has persecuted real Christians since it's conception.


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Offlinemyriadeyes
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9162651 - 10/31/08 01:32 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Quote:

if you aren't attached to this world, and realize in the end all physical things are impermanent, you are freed from all suffering




Wouldnt realizing you are attached to this world, and hence impermanent yourself make more sense?




By not being attached to this world, I meant a soul that was truly created for life after death. In this way, you can lose all the feelings of attachment to the now realizing you weren't made to be fully satisfied and sustained by them.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9162682 - 10/31/08 01:42 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Sounds more like escapism to me. Real inner peace is attainable in this life.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9163344 - 10/31/08 08:39 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

myriadeyes said:
Unfortunately, this hard evidence you've found I have not seen. But the idea of microevolution and adaptation in no way disproves the Judeo-Christian God. As far millions of years and all that, I don't think that's hard evidence either. It's been proven that enviromental factors drastically effect the half life and apparent age of elements. If a deluge really happened, which is a major story retained by many cultures all over the world, the immense pressure created would drastically change how old the earth appears to be by our dating methods. I'm not counting out that the world is possibly millions of years old, but just because it's been tested time and time again doesn't mean it's reliable, the tests could be faulty. Maybe man evolved from bacterial piss and semen, but I still find there to be evidence that our complexity hints at design. How did men and women evolve independently and simultaneously and still work key-in-lock when having sex? All of the necessary mechanisms work like a charm - if there were the tiniest differences between the two, it wouldn't work. I personally am not sure how that's possible. Evolved instead of designed?  How, by chance?  All it is is a mathmatical term defining what might happen next. It doesn't drive any type of creation or evolution, it must be driven by something.




Well, men and women didn't evolve independently at all... this wouldn't even make sense.  We evolved together as we're a two-sex species; males cannot procreate without females and vice-versa.  And you're saying all the necessary mechanisms work like a charm?  How so?  The whole point of evolution is that whatever genetic mechanisms work, work to survive and procreate to the next generation--those that do not, die out.  Even today we're seeing people being born sterile, deformed, mentally retarded, trans-gender, or being born without good survival traits.  It's more likely that these people's genes won't get passed on to the next generation, ensuring that those with good genetic tendencies will.

Also, evolution is driven by something: chance and natural selection.  Random mutations occur all the time.  Those that favor the offspring (in terms of increasing its survival rate and chances at procreation) are those mutations that are more likely to be kept.  Those that don't, are less likely to continue on the next generation.  There's no guiding hand here; only millions upon millions of years that ensure that whatever works, will work.

Some good books on the subject that I'd recommend are The Selfish Gene and The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins--really has a comprehensive overview of evolution and argument against intelligent design.  As for the Deluge argument, the occurrence of a global flood is not supported by any credible scientist whatsoever, although there is some evidence to support that there was a localized flood from the Mediterranean Sea into the Black Sea in about 5800 BCE which gave rise to so many Flood myths.  Even so, this does nothing to disprove the fact that the Earth is 4.8 billion years old, which has been verified by countless geological techniques.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html#flood


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9163376 - 10/31/08 08:50 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)


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Invisibleblewmeanie
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #9163487 - 10/31/08 09:23 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)



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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #9163695 - 10/31/08 10:19 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Which came first; this or Discordianism?


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9163704 - 10/31/08 10:21 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

More importantly which one has more of an affiliation with filthy hippies.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9164037 - 10/31/08 11:41 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Which came first; this or Discordianism?




Discordianism.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #9164834 - 10/31/08 02:30 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

First came this.:monkeydance::monkeydance::monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Icelander]
    #9164841 - 10/31/08 02:31 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

:fishy: came before that, actually.  :tongue:


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9164908 - 10/31/08 02:45 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I'm really in to fish:thumbup:  It's been one of the few constants in my life.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9165491 - 10/31/08 05:19 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ensuring that those with good genetic tendencies will.





Really? Go to Walmart or the mall in the middle of the day during the week and check out the women with the most kids in tow, and then make that statement.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9165503 - 10/31/08 05:23 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I like 'em rotund.  :shrug:


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Icelander]
    #9165516 - 10/31/08 05:25 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I'm really in to fish:thumbup:  It's been one of the few constants in my life.




Nothing beats torturing lower life forms with barbed steel.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9165599 - 10/31/08 05:56 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Except torturing higher life forms with barbed words.
:fishing:


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9165788 - 10/31/08 06:45 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Cosmic consciousness is the concept that the universe is a living superorganism with which animals, including humans, interconnect, and form a collective consciousness which spans the cosmos

we are one being playing a game with its self where it makes it seem like there are others but realy its all just you.(or me) :grin:



i am you and you are me.
we or one.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: cowchips902]
    #9165908 - 10/31/08 07:20 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Its called cosmic consciousness.........I thought it was just called schizophrenia. :shrug:


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9165916 - 10/31/08 07:24 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

its called what ever you want it to be called..... I mean after all you made it. :wink:


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: cowchips902]
    #9165957 - 10/31/08 07:37 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I choose to call it goatse.....thus saith me.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9165973 - 10/31/08 07:45 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

swell choose! ^_^


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: myriadeyes]
    #9166211 - 10/31/08 09:45 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Original copy of Bible had been lost, there were a dozen of written decades later. Iznik council banned all but four at the year 325 AD. So there is little original words in Bible.

Quran is the words of God, not a single letter of it has been changed.

Islam is very logical, all your objections to catholic religion has been met well in Islam.

You should read something before objecting it or ask somebody with a open mind. I'm ready to discuss about Islam. But the aim of discussion should not be the victory of one's mind over others. Discussion is to made to reach the truth. With a clean, open, demanding mind.

Truth is a gift by God given to these seeking it with humble heart. God hates haughty, arrogant, over-inflated egos.

Edited by Dervish (10/31/08 09:47 PM)

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Dervish]
    #9166335 - 10/31/08 10:45 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Dervish said: But the aim of discussion should not be the victory of one's mind over others. Discussion is to made to reach the truth.




And sometimes one's own mind holds the truth.  Isn't it then natural to claim all other beliefs as wrong?

:strokebeard:


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9166360 - 10/31/08 10:55 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Possibly, but that really depends on what the "truth" is.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9167748 - 11/01/08 11:12 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I'm really in to fish:thumbup:  It's been one of the few constants in my life.




Nothing beats torturing lower life forms with barbed steel.




Oh I agree. But then I don't buy factory tortured meats at the grocery store. Or go out and eat meat at restaurants. So maybe I'm still ahead of you in the holyier than thou dept.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Dervish]
    #9167768 - 11/01/08 11:17 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

My favourite bit of the bible is the stuff about the hookers.

"Yet she increased her prostitution, remembering the days of her youth when she engaged in prostitution in the land of Egypt. She lusted after their genitals as large as those of donkeys, and their seminal emission was as strong as that of stallions." book of ezekiel

Holy as fuck


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: mr_kite]
    #9167775 - 11/01/08 11:19 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Guess the bible isn't all rubbish.:D


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Icelander]
    #9168113 - 11/01/08 01:11 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Its about Israel, not prostitution........still sexy though:naughty:


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: cowchips902]
    #9169243 - 11/01/08 05:45 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cowchips902 said:
Cosmic consciousness is the concept that the universe is a living superorganism with which animals, including humans, interconnect, and form a collective consciousness which spans the cosmos

we are one being playing a game with its self where it makes it seem like there are others but realy its all just you.(or me) :grin:



i am you and you are me.
we or one.




This I like, but what good is it?  Do I reap any tangible benefits from believing this?


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9169286 - 11/01/08 05:55 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Maybe thinking about gaining anything is the wrong way to go about it


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: mr_kite]
    #9169293 - 11/01/08 05:56 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I have to have some reason for adopting a belief system, though.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9169434 - 11/01/08 06:31 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Fuck that, adopt a dog or cat.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Icelander]
    #9169521 - 11/01/08 06:53 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Adopt a quirky new accent or hairstyle.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: mr_kite]
    #9169575 - 11/01/08 07:04 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

How 'bout a toupée and a French poodle?


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9169775 - 11/01/08 07:59 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
I have to have some reason for adopting a belief system, though.



http://www.springerlink.com/content/g484435055217w1p/

Abstract  Most clinical studies examining the relation between religion and blood pressure status have focused on church attendance, finding lower pressures among frequent attenders. The present study examines the effect on blood pressure status of a religious meaning variable, importance of religion, both by itself and together with frequency of church attendance. The relation between blood pressure, self-perceived importance of religion, and frequency of church attendance was examined among a rural sample of 407 white men free from hypertension or cardiovascular disease. The data confirmed an interaction between the effects of both religious variables on blood pressure status, with importance of religion having an even greater association with lower pressures than church attendance. Diastolic blood pressures of persons with high church attendance and high religious importance were significantly lower than those in the low attendance, low importance group. These differences persisted after adjusting the analyses for age, socioeconomic status, smoking, and weight-height ratio (Quetelet Index). The difference in mean diastolic pressures based on response to the religious importance variable alone was statistically and clinically significant, particularly among men aged 55 and over (6 mm) and among smokers (5 mm). These findings suggest that both religious attitudes and involvement may interact favorably in their effects on cardiovascular hemodynamics.
Funding for this study was provided by the Department of Public Health, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill; the Center for the Study of Aging and Human Development, Duke University Medical Center; and the Geriatric Research Education and Clinical Center, Durham, North Carolina.
:grin:


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #9169783 - 11/01/08 08:01 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

youbreakyoubuy said:
Quote:

The Cypher said:
I have to have some reason for adopting a belief system, though.



http://www.springerlink.com/content/g484435055217w1p/

Abstract  Most clinical studies examining the relation between religion and blood pressure status have focused on church attendance, finding lower pressures among frequent attenders. The present study examines the effect on blood pressure status of a religious meaning variable, importance of religion, both by itself and together with frequency of church attendance. The relation between blood pressure, self-perceived importance of religion, and frequency of church attendance was examined among a rural sample of 407 white men free from hypertension or cardiovascular disease. The data confirmed an interaction between the effects of both religious variables on blood pressure status, with importance of religion having an even greater association with lower pressures than church attendance. Diastolic blood pressures of persons with high church attendance and high religious importance were significantly lower than those in the low attendance, low importance group. These differences persisted after adjusting the analyses for age, socioeconomic status, smoking, and weight-height ratio (Quetelet Index). The difference in mean diastolic pressures based on response to the religious importance variable alone was statistically and clinically significant, particularly among men aged 55 and over (6 mm) and among smokers (5 mm). These findings suggest that both religious attitudes and involvement may interact favorably in their effects on cardiovascular hemodynamics.
Funding for this study was provided by the Department of Public Health, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill; the Center for the Study of Aging and Human Development, Duke University Medical Center; and the Geriatric Research Education and Clinical Center, Durham, North Carolina.
:grin:




Meditation, or a daily aspirin will do the same thing, without all the bullshit.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9169939 - 11/01/08 08:40 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

The Cypher didn't specify about a reason sans bullshit.  Besides, one man's trash is another man's treasure.


(Offtopic)
Anybody besides myself ever notice how religion sparks such strong reactions in people in this forum?  I know this may be sort of an inherent property of colliding worldviews, but still.


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Edited by youbreakyoubuy (11/01/08 08:49 PM)

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #9170030 - 11/01/08 09:05 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

youbreakyoubuy said:
The Cypher didn't specify about a reason sans bullshit.  Besides, one man's trash is another man's treasure.


(Offtopic)
Anybody besides myself ever notice how religion sparks such strong reactions in people in this forum?  I know this may be sort of an inherent property of colliding worldviews, but still.




Every time I post my opinion of Christianity, or the concept of god in general, I get 2 or 3 5 mushroom ratings, and usually one or two people putting me on ignore. I actually just got 2 more people ignoring me very recently. :blush:

Religion is basically the totality of ones viewpoint, anything contradicting it can be maddening for some people.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9170295 - 11/01/08 10:21 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I agree that folks don't take it too well when their fundamental metaphysical reality is under siege.
:stickemup: :tongue2:


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9170564 - 11/01/08 11:47 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Religion is basically the totality of ones viewpoint, or is it the totality of ones viewpoint his religion?

Earlier you said something about the "non-religious" jew that I found pretty interesting, and this is kind of how I tend to see things (kind of backwardsly but youll see). It sounds alot like what I have read about Hinduism, and this is the way I actually see all religions.

I suppose this arises partly due to my refusal to accept its counterpart, this concept culture, humanity as some pallid blob on a petri dish. If culture actually was such a "scientific" attempt to objectify humanity and art, I would be all for it. People often misinterpret my rhetoric for my having some dear meaning that I wish to keep hidden and sacred, and so mistaken my religiosity for this kind of weakness.

But on the contrary, my problem is in fact the lack of such criticism. The realm of culture is much less (a positive) objectivity, than the active repression of opinions for the sake of political correctness. I on the other hand WOULD be so inhumane to say I like some music better than other, and then I might sincerely hope whoever is playing that shit I don't like, shuts up so I don't have to listen to it. (of course, play whatever you want out of earshot) You might call this religious hate, but I call it my discriminating intellect. This is my religiosity.

Now if you follow me, I should also mention that I realize certain religions take there shit way too seriously, and totally fuck up the world. Indeed this is my # 1 problem as well! But I do not know how to deal with this problem. I have learned that my terms of expression cannot enlighten crazy christians, and I have also noticed other's "good intentions" which I recognizes as directed hate. For this reason, and because I can deal with the dogma in my own arena, are reasons I will typically be seen arguing "for religion".

But fundamentally it is the previously mentioned "genres" of the world. You say throw out your Christianity, but there is alot taken for granted in this sweep of what you might simply refer to as just dogma. My mom is a pretty hardcore christian, but I recognize that Christianity is my Mom. Shes enlightened in her own way, and I am open to this kind of enlightenment pretty much anywhere.

The militant atheists drive me up a wall, even though I also more inclined to "nothingness" than anything else. In a certain sense, I get angry because people are bastardizing my own beliefs (yes I recognize them as beliefs). They take my own existential issue and make it sound easy: As if the statement or idea that "I don't believe in God" dispels all dogmas, and that athiesm is the "sensible" solution that we should all choose for our own enlightenment. In this forum you will find countless athiests preaching this, but you will never find one to admit that they believe in anything at all! To all those who profess they believe "in nothing", who usually demonstrate themselves as anything but zen masters, and I am essentially saying that it is easier said than done.

I can see from what you previously said, that you at least recognize a connect between culture and religion. I just happen to go a step further and call them the same thing. This is why I can't agree with the sweeping out of religion Its all religion in my opinion. I would like to get rid of the bullshit too, but you know where mushrooms grow don't you?

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9174608 - 11/02/08 09:07 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Quote:

cowchips902 said:
Cosmic consciousness is the concept that the universe is a living superorganism with which animals, including humans, interconnect, and form a collective consciousness which spans the cosmos

we are one being playing a game with its self where it makes it seem like there are others but realy its all just you.(or me) :grin:



i am you and you are me.
we or one.




This I like, but what good is it?  Do I reap any tangible benefits from believing this?






You can step back and watch your self at work.

"the light at the end is the same light within."

if you look at it this way you will realize that EVERYTHING you want you already have.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9174617 - 11/02/08 09:08 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Ladies and gentlemen, the memetic filters are down.  Convince me that I should accept your beliefs.





Try Daoism.

It doesn't involve anything other than that there is a flowing energy through all things that is all things that lao tzu calls "Tao", and that going with this flow makes life better.

Or you could try Hinduism. By default, all truth-seekers are Hindu.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: cowchips902]
    #9176846 - 11/03/08 10:32 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

cowchips902 said:
if you look at it this way you will realize that EVERYTHING you want you already have.




Good slogan, but I doubt a starving kid in Africa would agree.

Quote:

Krash Kharma said:
Or you could try Hinduism. By default, all truth-seekers are Hindu.




How so?


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9178575 - 11/03/08 04:50 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Ladies and gentlemen, the memetic filters are down.  Convince me that I should accept your beliefs.




Yes accept this. Use logic to the best of your ability and keep trying to improve it.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9185252 - 11/04/08 09:07 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

You are that starving kid.

everything is just an experience.

there is no good or bad.

and taoism is amazing.:grin:


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Icelander]
    #9185316 - 11/04/08 09:15 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:Use logic to the best of your ability and keep trying to improve it.




what are some good ways to improve logic?

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deranger]
    #9187833 - 11/05/08 09:24 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Math


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deranger]
    #9187853 - 11/05/08 09:29 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

Icelander said:Use logic to the best of your ability and keep trying to improve it.




what are some good ways to improve logic?




Challenge your current belief systems by demanding they have hard evidence to back them up. Most people never look into why they believe something.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9190741 - 11/05/08 06:38 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Math




hells yeah.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Icelander]
    #9190754 - 11/05/08 06:41 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

deranger said:
Quote:

Icelander said:Use logic to the best of your ability and keep trying to improve it.




what are some good ways to improve logic?




Challenge your current belief systems by demanding they have hard evidence to back them up. Most people never look into why they believe something.




that does work to some degree, but there seems to be much more effective ways to improve logic.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deranger]
    #9194452 - 11/06/08 10:05 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Not when it comes to the emotional life IMO. This is were most peoples logic falls down flat. It's like they never heard of it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Icelander]
    #9196673 - 11/06/08 04:48 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Here are the ones I am working with.  I know they aren't the truth, but I feel better when I have faith in them.

Assumption:  Soul is experience.

Assumption:  Nothing can come from nothing. 

Assumption:  Everything is a series of events.

Assumption:  The universe is a loop.

Assumption:  Events without preconditions are random.

Assumption:  Nothing is random.

Assumption:  If something appears random, it is because its preconditions are hidden from perception.

Assumption:  The “particles” of the universe have properties which determine how they behave. 

Assumption:  All of the particles and their properties are the same with each cycle of creation and destruction because there is no influence on them which could alter the sequence of events within the system.  Any event that would do so would be a random one.

Assumption:  Systems including or included by our universe allow follow the previous assumptions.

The previous assumptions resolve a number of problems that another argument cannot resolve.  First, determinism and free will are reconciled to the extent that we are free to will ourselves to do things, but ultimately that will is a result of what we have learned.  What we learn is what we do, we show it in all that we do.  Zeno’s arrow paradox is resolved because motion is an illusion.  Calculus is right because the sum of an infinite series is still finite, or in other words, all.  Heraclitus is right because the universe is nothing but change, but Parmenides is right because the universe is one cycle.  Hume’s problem of induction is avoided because none of these assumptions suppose anything about actual causes of events, only that there is a repeating sequence of events.  Positivists are right because this argument supposes that there is a complete truth in the universe, but to human perspective it may be impossible to know, so all true knowledge is scientific.  Relativists are right too because we can’t know the whole truth, we can only put it into the best words possible. 

There are some difficult things that come from this that many people would find hard to accept.  Free will is an illusion.  Life is only an arrangement of “particles” that exist in such a way that they are self sustaining forms within the system.  There is no creator god.  When we die, we are born again as the same person because the universe recreates itself in the same exact way.  The only heaven is a good life.

Edited by xFrockx (11/06/08 04:53 PM)

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: xFrockx]
    #9196683 - 11/06/08 04:49 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I like your conclusions, but I'd disagree that nothing is random.

What if everything was random, and order is merely a byproduct of our perception?

In reality, I think neither order nor disorder exist--we can choose to see either chaos or harmony as we see fit.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: xFrockx]
    #9196704 - 11/06/08 04:53 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

The only heaven is a good life.

Back to the river for some more fishing.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Icelander]
    #9196714 - 11/06/08 04:54 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Also works if you take the f out of life, too.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9196715 - 11/06/08 04:54 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

If random exists give me one example.  I can't.  this is why I have this faith.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Icelander]
    #9196721 - 11/06/08 04:55 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Damn straight.  Even if it doesn't loop, fishing is a good bet.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: xFrockx]
    #9196726 - 11/06/08 04:56 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
If random exists give me one example.  I can't.  this is why I have this faith.




An electron is a probability field; is this not random?

Radioactive decay is also an example of a random phenomenon.


--------------------
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9196736 - 11/06/08 04:57 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Those are random because science said so.  Think of the limitations of science.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: xFrockx]
    #9196749 - 11/06/08 04:59 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Define random for me.  I agree that it's bothersome to think that things may occur without any predictability whatsoever, but so far we can model reality very accurately by including randomness into our equations.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9196814 - 11/06/08 05:11 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

"Events without preconditions are random."

I said it up there.  I realize this definition is incomplete because all definitions are incomplete when using my beliefs.

The thing is though, all beliefs are also true.  True, but incomplete.  They do not tell the whole story of reality, but they are a part of it, so they are true.

Edited by xFrockx (11/06/08 05:13 PM)

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: xFrockx]
    #9196835 - 11/06/08 05:14 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Knowledge comes from admitting that you cannot know anything, you cannot even know that you cannot know anything, and you can't even know that or anything else.  The thing is though, you are always right because you are real.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: xFrockx]
    #9196863 - 11/06/08 05:18 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Do you mean by this events without any conditions that necessitate the event's occurrence?


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9197493 - 11/06/08 06:59 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Quote:

Krash Kharma said:
Or you could try Hinduism. By default, all truth-seekers are Hindu.




How so?



http://www.casawomo.com/hindu.php


--------------------

The number of times I edit my post is directly related to the number of times I've hit the bong :bonghit2:

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9200357 - 11/07/08 04:39 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Exactly.  Free will is only as good as how much we know about ourselves.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9200510 - 11/07/08 06:32 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

"but so far we can model reality very accurately by including randomness into our equations. "

I just noticed this.  Ask yourself, just because we can do it accurately with probability, does that make it true that probability really exists?  Can we ever know for sure?

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: xFrockx]
    #9200627 - 11/07/08 07:39 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I agree with you that there might be a fundamental order behind everything.  But it's also quite possible that there is instead a fundamental chaos behind everything (the quantum foam, probabilistic waveforms) which we only extrapolate to deduce a non-existent order.

Both chaos and order are human constructs; nothing more.


--------------------
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9200668 - 11/07/08 08:05 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

What are human constructs then?

And of course we can't know if there is objective reality, I don't disagree with that.  In fact, my beliefs force me to never accept anything, this brings me peace.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: xFrockx]
    #9200818 - 11/07/08 08:59 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
What are human constructs then?




An imposition of a human categorization onto the undifferentiated real world.  We're incredibly skilled at finding patterns when there aren't any (which turns into paranoid schizophrenia when amplified) or seeing chaos when there is really order (if our scientific tools have not advanced far enough).


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9201561 - 11/07/08 11:25 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

What is the real world?

What are patterns?

What is chaos?

What is order?

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: xFrockx]
    #9201702 - 11/07/08 12:02 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Words, words, mere words...


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9203884 - 11/07/08 06:41 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Do you understand why I hold these beliefs now?


If not, what are words?

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: xFrockx]
    #9203896 - 11/07/08 06:43 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

An attempt to categorize the uncategorizable.

I understand your belief system; I just disagree that there's a fundamental order behind everything.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9204776 - 11/07/08 09:48 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

"An attempt to categorize the uncategorizable."

What is an attempt? 

What is the uncategorizable?

What is categorize?

If words are your definition, and your definition is words, then you are lost in a loop of your own making.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9205294 - 11/07/08 11:48 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

What you are searching for is what is searching.

...

To possess everything ins this world is the same thing as to desire nothing.


--------------------
What you're searching for is what's searching.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: xFrockx]
    #9205742 - 11/08/08 02:47 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

xFrockx said:
If words are your definition, and your definition is words, then you are lost in a loop of your own making.




Welcome to the paradox of the dictionary.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9212456 - 11/09/08 03:28 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The dictionary of words



 
  defines itself in linear circles.


 
                  Who dares look inside



                                          disappears.





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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9212826 - 11/09/08 04:34 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Is it the paradox of the dictionary, or the paradox of words?  What is either?  Who are you?

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: xFrockx]
    #9212968 - 11/09/08 04:58 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Mu.


--------------------
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: LSDXM]
    #9212975 - 11/09/08 04:59 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Krash Kharma said:
Quote:

The Cypher said:
Quote:

Krash Kharma said:
Or you could try Hinduism. By default, all truth-seekers are Hindu.




How so?



http://www.casawomo.com/hindu.php




Okay, so I suppose almost anyone who's a moral person could call themselves a Hindu.  But why not just call yourself yourself?


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9212987 - 11/09/08 05:01 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Hi, I am yourself.

Gee that just doesn't sound right.:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
    #9214027 - 11/09/08 07:50 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Don't call yourself anything.  Just be.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: xFrockx]
    #9215863 - 11/10/08 01:23 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Ok, here it is. Any belief system is a crutch. It is incredibly convenient for most humans to have a belief system. The only correct belief system is skeptic absurdism. Nihilism is flawed because it denies that you can attach meaning to life. Inherently, nothing has any meaning. All meaning is relative, and is attached by something. We attach great importance and meaning on survival, but it really makes no difference whether we live or die. The only important thing in the world is the relative importance we place on happiness. Everything we call important can be traced back to our personal need for happiness.

Many religious people say they can't prove there is a 'God', but that they should do what he says in case he is real. If there was a 'God', there is no way he could blame you for being a skeptic. It is the only path that makes sense. The way to live life is to balance everything. Balance pursuits of personal happiness with pleasing others, and everyone will be happier. Balance what you eat. Balance your drug intake. Balance work and free time.

It is much harder to live without a belief system, but you it is infinitely more satisfying if you can do it successfully. The only acceptable belief systems are those like Buddhism which use metaphors and help you maintain balance.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: peterluber]
    #9215881 - 11/10/08 01:26 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

peterluber said:
Any belief system is a crutch.

The only correct belief system is skeptic absurdism.

The only acceptable belief systems are those like Buddhism which use metaphors and help you maintain balance.




:confused:

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #9215977 - 11/10/08 01:46 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Oweyervishice said:
Quote:

peterluber said:
Any belief system is a crutch.

The only correct belief system is skeptic absurdism.

The only acceptable belief systems are those like Buddhism which use metaphors and help you maintain balance.




:confused:




Haha alright let me clarify. I was using the term 'belief system' loosely. Skepticism and absurdism are not belief systems, but rather a lack thereof. That is the only correct way to be. The only acceptable religion-type belief systems are those like Buddhism. Those are still used as crutches, and they are not completely right, but as long as you are not taking them literally, they aren't completely ignorant.

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: peterluber]
    #9216650 - 11/10/08 07:42 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Any ism is by definition a belief system.

But I generally approve of your philosophy.


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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: peterluber]
    #9216706 - 11/10/08 08:10 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

peterluber said:
Ok, here it is. Any belief system is a crutch. It is incredibly convenient for most humans to have a belief system. The only correct belief system is skeptic absurdism. Nihilism is flawed because it denies that you can attach meaning to life. Inherently, nothing has any meaning. All meaning is relative, and is attached by something. We attach great importance and meaning on survival, but it really makes no difference whether we live or die. The only important thing in the world is the relative importance we place on happiness. Everything we call important can be traced back to our personal need for happiness.

Many religious people say they can't prove there is a 'God', but that they should do what he says in case he is real. If there was a 'God', there is no way he could blame you for being a skeptic. It is the only path that makes sense. The way to live life is to balance everything. Balance pursuits of personal happiness with pleasing others, and everyone will be happier. Balance what you eat. Balance your drug intake. Balance work and free time.

It is much harder to live without a belief system, but you it is infinitely more satisfying if you can do it successfully. The only acceptable belief systems are those like Buddhism which use metaphors and help you maintain balance.




Purty good post. I agree heartily with all of it except that middle part rambling about what God (if there was a god) would think about any actions on your part. There would be no way to know what god thought unless it came down and sat in front of you and spelled it out.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: Icelander]
    #9320833 - 11/27/08 04:27 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

try solipsism. but.... don't think to hard on it stoned.


cuz when you throw in the oneness thing and stuff like taoism and quantum physics

reality starts to get trippy. and then you get solipsism syndrome and its no fun!


all i have to say is we just are.


--------------------
:mushroom2: The One That Became Many is Becoming One Agin! :mushroom2:

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