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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: blewmeanie]
#9161951 - 10/30/08 11:19 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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So what happens if I sin copiously before I die?
Or is Judaism more like what new Catholicism is turning into (i.e. there is no brimstone and hellfire, but rather a state of being away from God)?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
#9161974 - 10/30/08 11:22 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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The concept of "sin" doesnt really translate over into judaism. We havent yet lost the concept of metaphor that most western "religions" have been so eager to abandon.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: blewmeanie]
#9161998 - 10/30/08 11:25 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Now I'm intrigued--please explain what you mean by sin being a metaphor.
So does this mean that regardless of my actions on this Earth, I will still live happily in the afterlife after my death?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
#9162034 - 10/30/08 11:30 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Allot of jews dont even believe in a literal afterlife. I'm atheist.
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: blewmeanie]
#9162041 - 10/30/08 11:31 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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I read somewhere that 50% of the jews in Israel identify as secular.
EDIT:
Quote:
So what happens if I sin copiously before I die?
The orthodox answer would be something along the line of "purgatory". Reincarnation is also mentioned throughout the Tanakh.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: blewmeanie]
#9162050 - 10/30/08 11:32 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Isn't Judaism by definition a monotheistic religion?
I mean, you might be a Jew because your mother was a Jew, or because you like the culture and traditions, but to consider yourself following the Judaic faith you must believe in the God of the Torah, no?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
#9162074 - 10/30/08 11:37 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said: Isn't Judaism by definition a monotheistic religion?
I mean, you might be a Jew because your mother was a Jew, or because you like the culture and traditions, but to consider yourself following the Judaic faith you must believe in the God of the Torah, no?
Some would say yes, and some would say no.
Its more a set of practices than anything. The idea of faith, and belief as exist in Christianity arent really compatible with judaism. Even the idea of salvation is completely different. The salvation of judaism is in your every day life not in some pipe dream in the sky.
I'd say one of the main things all jew agree on is the inherent value of debate. Nothing is simply accepted.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: blewmeanie]
#9162089 - 10/30/08 11:39 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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blewmeanie said: I'd say one of the main things all jew agree on is the inherent value of debate.
I can definitely attest to this after having read The Chosen.
It's mildly ironic how that debate icon you chose is {arabs}, too. Makes me want to declare a holy war.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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mofo
Hobby Jingoist
Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 2,232
Loc: Donkey Kong Kill Screen
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
#9162091 - 10/30/08 11:40 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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One thing you don't seem to have taken into consideration with your math analogy is that the value of the afterlife is far more than the value of this temporal life. How much time do you have here? 80 years give or take? Compare that with eternity. Also, I wouldn't give religious adherence a 0 on the fun scale either. I would say for most, its probably in the middle range somewhere. You can still enjoy life, just avoid the excesses. When I was younger I led a life of excess and I was actually pretty miserable. What kind of sins are you hesitant to give up, anyway?
In terms of having only the testimony of others as evidence of God, I would say to you that it is possible to know God on a personal level. I could offer some suggestions on how to do this, but its probably best approached by using your own intuition. Just pay attention to it.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: mofo]
#9162117 - 10/30/08 11:43 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mofo said: One thing you don't seem to have taken into consideration with your math analogy is that the value of the afterlife is far more than the value of this temporal life. How much time do you have here? 80 years give or take? Compare that with eternity. Also, I wouldn't give religious adherence a 0 on the fun scale either. I would say for most, its probably in the middle range somewhere. You can still enjoy life, just avoid the excesses. When I was younger I led a life of excess and I was actually pretty miserable. What kind of sins are you hesitant to give up, anyway?
Murder, thievery, lying, profanity, not going to Church, not praying, pre-marital sex, sodomy, coveting others, the list goes on. I don't want to have to feel guilty about anything, or eliminate any possible experience from my time here on Earth.
Quote:
In terms of having only the testimony of others as evidence of God, I would say to you that it is possible to know God on a personal level. I could offer some suggestions on how to do this, but its probably best approached by using your own intuition. Just pay attention to it.
I agree that one can experience God (psychedelics, for one thing) on one's own terms. However, these personal revelations rarely, if ever, come with a caveat to obey certain rules, a promise of an eternal afterlife, or a threat of eternal damnation. It's these latter parts that comes from other fallible, power-hungry people IMO--and not from my own intuition.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: mofo]
#9162118 - 10/30/08 11:43 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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mofo said: One thing you don't seem to have taken into consideration with your math analogy is that the value of the afterlife is far more than the value of this temporal life. How much time do you have here? 80 years give or take? Compare that with eternity. Also, I wouldn't give religious adherence a 0 on the fun scale either. I would say for most, its probably in the middle range somewhere. You can still enjoy life, just avoid the excesses. When I was younger I led a life of excess and I was actually pretty miserable. What kind of sins are you hesitant to give up, anyway?
In terms of having only the testimony of others as evidence of God, I would say to you that it is possible to know God on a personal level. I could offer some suggestions on how to do this, but its probably best approached by using your own intuition. Just pay attention to it.
Post number 666 lolz
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
#9162145 - 10/30/08 11:47 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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The Cypher said:
Quote:
blewmeanie said: I'd say one of the main things all jew agree on is the inherent value of debate.
I can definitely attest to this after having read The Chosen.
It's mildly ironic how that debate icon you chose is {arabs}, too. Makes me want to declare a holy war.
The Talmud which is in many ways far more important in Judaism that the Tanakh (old testament before the horrible translation) is just an enormous record of debate between rabbi's.
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daytripper23
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Posts: 3,595
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
#9162209 - 10/30/08 11:56 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ever listen to Klezmer music?
You can definitely here the arabian influence
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myriadeyes
man with a movie camera
Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
#9162257 - 10/31/08 12:03 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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The Cypher said: The thing is, I don't know whether or not there is a God. The only evidence I can see pointing towards that is through the testimony of human-written books and other people, who may all be fallible.
What about the beauty of life? Humans, sex, trees, love, stars, everything..doesn't it seem to complex and thought out to just be the product of chance? What is chance anyways? Simply the allotment of events, it is not a generator in and of itself. I could go on about this but I won't, unless you want to talk about it. Please watch this video, I'm no expert and can't claim their ideas to be without flaw, but the sheer beauty and ideas they present put me on my face. I made a thread about it to see if their facts check out and what the shroomerites thought. The thread is here. I swear the movie's worth watching, and not affiliated with any religion.
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The Cypher said: If I choose the first option, and God exists, I'm granted an eternity of pleasure. My earthly life is not very happy (at least, subjectively, following the traditional Christian creed does not particularly strike my fancy), but this made up for in the afterlife. 0 + 10 = 10.
I know Christianity doesn't sound fun, but it's not bad. It's very similar to Veritas' idea of not being attached - if you aren't attached to this world, and realize in the end all physical things are impermanent, you are freed from all suffering. Yeah physical pleasures will certainly decrease, but I don't believe that earthly pleasures of 75 years can be compared with eternal pleasure - they don't even deserve to be in the same math equation.
So first off, earthly pleasures might be a 6, definitely not a 0, but true satisfaction with life might jump up to a 9 if the words turn out to really be God's (I know we're speaking hypothetically here), since He would know.
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The Cypher said: If I choose the first option, and God doesn't exist, I just wasted my earthly time following made-up laws and squandered any possibility of earthly pleasures before I die. My earthly life is not very happy and then I die. 0 + 0 = 0.
I know this is a hard concept to grasp, I can't fully either, but have you really wasted your life if you can't remember it? How important was it that you enjoyed physical pleasure yesterday? last year? your whole life? what about once your dead? If nothing exists after death, I don't see why it matters if I did something awesome in life or not. I'm not going to exist for eternity . I know it's hard to understand, but think about it for a while, it may take 10 years..I don't know.
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The Cypher said: If I choose the second option, and God exists, what happens? I suppose this varies according to your faith, but most monotheistic religions preach that I'll be doomed to hellfire. I live it up now but am doomed to hellfire. 10 + 0 = 10.
Yeah I'm not sure yet if I believe the Bible equates hell with eternal suffering or simply non-existence. From what I've gathered, non-existence, being apart from God, would be eternal suffering in a way. I don't know enough to say either way.
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The Cypher said: From the game theory analysis of the situation (Pascal's wager, essentially), I therefore conclude that it is to my benefit to sin now, regardless of whether or not God exists.
Once again, I don't think even a lifetime of bliss and infinite bliss could begin to be compared, much less both be equated to be 10 points.
I don't know man, maybe Pascal's wager isn't all it's cracked up to be..
p.s. it just turned into the SPOOKERY!
-------------------- If you spare a little of your imagination . . .
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: myriadeyes]
#9162276 - 10/31/08 12:05 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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if you aren't attached to this world, and realize in the end all physical things are impermanent, you are freed from all suffering
Wouldnt realizing you are attached to this world, and hence impermanent yourself make more sense?
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mofo
Hobby Jingoist
Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 2,232
Loc: Donkey Kong Kill Screen
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
#9162353 - 10/31/08 12:15 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said: Murder, thievery, lying, profanity, not going to Church, not praying, pre-marital sex, sodomy, coveting others, the list goes on. I don't want to have to feel guilty about anything, or eliminate any possible experience from my time here on Earth. .
Well, I'm not advocating this or anything, but Constantine and others are said to have waited more or less until they were on their death bed to be baptized, since baptism is said to wash away completely every mark of sin of your former life, but you can only do it once. But anyway, murder?
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: myriadeyes]
#9162378 - 10/31/08 12:19 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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myriadeyes said: What about the beauty of life? Humans, sex, trees, love, stars, everything..doesn't it seem to complex and thought out to just be the product of chance? What is chance anyways? Simply the allotment of events, it is not a generator in and of itself. I could go on about this but I won't, unless you want to talk about it. Please watch this video, I'm no expert and can't claim their ideas to be without flaw, but the sheer beauty and ideas they present put me on my face. I made a thread about it to see if their facts check out and what the shroomerites thought. The thread is here. I swear the movie's worth watching, and not affiliated with any religion.
I didn't watch the movie, but in the first place the question of whether or not something created the world is an entirely different question as to whether the God of the Judeo-Christian tradition exists. Couldn't God simply be a blind watchmaker, setting up his creation to tick and then stepping away completely?
Secondly, it's a hard concept to grasp, but the theory of evolution has been tested time and time again--and each time it's successfully held up to the evidence. It's very hard wrapping our minds around the concept that evolution takes millions of years to take place, and that something so complicated as the human organism could have evolved instead of have being designed, but this is a concept that has been tested, verified, and examined by tens of thousands of scientists who agree on its veracity for now. Besides, isn't this finite concept an easier idea to grasp than the concept of an infinite, unknowable, mystical, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent being?
Thirdly, you're using selective reasoning to choose examples of things that seem like they were designed. What about violence, death, suffering, decomposing maggots on a rotting corpse, serial killers, satanists, animal abusers, genetically deformed children, mental retardation, chromosomal abnormalities, hate, rage, criminals, murder, etc...? All of these point towards we being simply a fluke of chance and natural selection; hardly a perfect design creation from a perfect God.
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myriadeyes said: Once again, I don't think even a lifetime of bliss and infinite bliss could begin to be compared, much less both be equated to be 10 points.
I agree that the keyword infinite does stack the deck a little in your favor. But again, it then boils down to whether or not we should trust this proclamation of eternal life. If I were to come up to you, and say that if you performed a grotesque sexual act on me for the rest of your life you would be rewarded with eternal, unfathomable bliss forever after you die, you wouldn't believe me. But if you run a cost-benefit analysis similar to Pascal's Wager on it, you would be forced to come to the conclusion that any material suffering you undergo in this world would be worth the infinite reward if I'm actually telling you the truth.
Would you still accept my offer? I think not. The key issue here is whether or not this infinite bliss promise is trustworthy, and considering the only places I have heard tell me this have been human, I choose not to trust them, especially when their assertion is unprovable (for who can come back to the dead to tell me if I should accept their great offer?)
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
#9162404 - 10/31/08 12:24 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said: (for who can come back to the dead to tell me if I should accept their great offer?)
Jesus, duh.
Oh wait...he's one of those stories written by humans, again...
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: mofo]
#9162413 - 10/31/08 12:25 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mofo said:
Quote:
The Cypher said: Murder, thievery, lying, profanity, not going to Church, not praying, pre-marital sex, sodomy, coveting others, the list goes on. I don't want to have to feel guilty about anything, or eliminate any possible experience from my time here on Earth. .
Well, I'm not advocating this or anything, but Constantine and others are said to have waited more or less until they were on their death bed to be baptized, since baptism is said to wash away completely every mark of sin of your former life, but you can only do it once. But anyway, murder?
Sonuvabitch, I've already been baptized a Lutheran.
And, sure, I figure at one point in my life before I die I might as well kill someone. I'm a person who believes in experiencing things, and building my character and set of values over what I experience, rather than idly postulate empty morals over something that I'd never dare do. Be it unintentionally, or intentionally, I wouldn't want to believe something that would damn me to hell for doing it, especially when apparently soldiers or people who kill for a good cause are exempt in the eyes of the Church.
To quote from A Technical Manual for Independent Contractors:
Quote:
Some people would say that a hit man is an emotionless, cold-blooded killing machine that he has no fear and no belief in God. On the contrary, a hit man has a wide range of feelings. He may be excruciatingly tender towards his woman. He may be extremely compassionate towards the elderly or disabled. He may have a strong aversion to the useless killing of wildlife. He may even be religious in his own way.
What the professional lacks is remorse. He feels no guilt.
I'm sure your emotions have run full-scale over the past few days or weeks.
There was a fleeting moment just before you pulled the trigger when you wondered if lightening would strike you then and there. And afterwards, a short burst of panic as you quickly looked around to make sure no witnesses were lurking.
But other than that, you felt absolutely nothing. And you are shocked by that nothingness. You had expected this movement to be a spectacular point in your life. You had wondered if you would feel compassion for the victim, immediate guilt, or even experience direct intervention by the hand of God. But you weren't even feeling sickened by the sight of the body.
The first few seconds of nothingness give you an almost uncontrollable urge to laugh out loud. you break into a wide grin. Everything you have been taught about life and it value was a fallacy. A dirty rotten lie!
Life is notyou know beyond a shadow of a doubt that your own life is just as frail and valueless. What you have done could just as easily and unexpectedly been done to you, despite your fighting ability, your weapons expertise, your efforts to protect yourself. The realization is both sobering and shocking.
Like a machine, you do what is necessary to cover your tracks. As you leave the scene, that first burst of cool night air hits you and panic sets in. You have to force yourself to resist the urge to run!
It took only ten minutes to casually stroll to the victim's house. Covering that same distance back to your waiting car seems to take ten hours! Are people watching you from behind those closed drapes, memorizing your description as they dial the police? Can they hear the pounding of your heart above the noise of their television sets as you struggle to control your breathing and make it even?
Once inside the safety of your automobile, you change you clothing and disguise and alter the gun barrel as quickly as possible. Then, both hands gripping the steering wheel, you drive. Your eyes are constantly searching the roadside. You can't afford and accident, traffic violation, or even to miss a turn in your planned route. you struggle to keep the speed of the auto within set limits. Like you feet, the car seems to want to run.
With the disposal of each piece of evidence, your fear eases. By the time you arrive at the airport, you begin to feel silly about your unnecessary panic.
On the trip back home, you begin to think of the shocking realizations about the real value of life that you experienced after pulling the trigger professionally for the first time. Your own life takes on new meaning. Never again will you strive to accumulate wealth. Instead, you will pack the time you have with the things that make life enjoyable, interesting and exciting. You will live each day to the fullest. The acceptance of the valuelessness of life has give your own life value.
After you have arrived hoe, the events that took place take on a dreamlike quality. you don't dwell on them, you don't worry. You don't have nightmare. You don't fear ghosts. When thoughts of the hit got through your mind, it's almost as though you are recalling some show you saw on television.
By the time you collect the balance of your fee, the doubts and fears of discovery have faded. Those feelings have been replaced by cockiness, a feeling of superiority, a new independence and a new self-assurance.
Your biggest problem now is learning to deal with your ego.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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myriadeyes
man with a movie camera
Registered: 10/13/08
Posts: 358
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
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Re: So I'm in the market for a belief system... [Re: deCypher]
#9162639 - 10/31/08 01:27 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
I didn't watch the movie, but in the first place the question of whether or not something created the world is an entirely different question as to whether the God of the Judeo-Christian tradition exists. Couldn't God simply be a blind watchmaker, setting up his creation to tick and then stepping away completely?
I thought you were denying the existence of a God altogether. I wasn't trying to prove a Judeo-Christian God in that argument. I don't buy the idea that God is just a blind watchmaker. Don't make sense.
Quote:
The Cypher said:
Secondly, it's a hard concept to grasp, but the theory of evolution has been tested time and time again--and each time it's successfully held up to the evidence. It's very hard wrapping our minds around the concept that evolution takes millions of years to take place, and that something so complicated as the human organism could have evolved instead of have being designed, but this is a concept that has been tested, verified, and examined by tens of thousands of scientists who agree on its veracity for now. Besides, isn't this finite concept an easier idea to grasp than the concept of an infinite, unknowable, mystical, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent being?
Unfortunately, this hard evidence you've found I have not seen. But the idea of microevolution and adaptation in no way disproves the Judeo-Christian God. As far millions of years and all that, I don't think that's hard evidence either. It's been proven that enviromental factors drastically effect the half life and apparent age of elements. If a deluge really happened, which is a major story retained by many cultures all over the world, the immense pressure created would drastically change how old the earth appears to be by our dating methods. I'm not counting out that the world is possibly millions of years old, but just because it's been tested time and time again doesn't mean it's reliable, the tests could be faulty. Maybe man evolved from bacterial piss and semen, but I still find there to be evidence that our complexity hints at design. How did men and women evolve independently and simultaneously and still work key-in-lock when having sex? All of the necessary mechanisms work like a charm - if there were the tiniest differences between the two, it wouldn't work. I personally am not sure how that's possible. Evolved instead of designed? How, by chance? All it is is a mathmatical term defining what might happen next. It doesn't drive any type of creation or evolution, it must be driven by something.
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The Cypher said: Thirdly, you're using selective reasoning to choose examples of things that seem like they were designed. What about violence, death, suffering, decomposing maggots on a rotting corpse, serial killers, satanists, animal abusers, genetically deformed children, mental retardation, chromosomal abnormalities, hate, rage, criminals, murder, etc...? All of these point towards we being simply a fluke of chance and natural selection; hardly a perfect design creation from a perfect God.
No I wasn't, I was just saying these things are so complex and incredible, where did they come from? Every single thing you just listed was designed also, and I totally believe that. Why do they point towards a fluke of chance? Please answer me this. I never claimed for time and space to be perfect by the moral perspective your adhering to. Why couldn't it be perfect for His purposes?
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The Cypher said: I agree that the keyword infinite does stack the deck a little in your favor. But again, it then boils down to whether or not we should trust this proclamation of eternal life.
I totally agree. I was just arguing against the "points" you put forward.
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The Cypher said: If I were to come up to you, and say that if you performed a grotesque sexual act on me for the rest of your life you would be rewarded with eternal, unfathomable bliss forever after you die, you wouldn't believe me. But if you run a cost-benefit analysis similar to Pascal's Wager on it, you would be forced to come to the conclusion that any material suffering you undergo in this world would be worth the infinite reward if I'm actually telling you the truth. Would you still accept my offer? I think not.
Your absolutely right. The only question is, does the evidence you've provided me lead me to believe it's true. I severely doubt it would in this parallel dimensin we're inhabiting, but if it did, by my nature I think I'd have to do it..
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The Cypher said: The key issue here is whether or not this infinite bliss promise is trustworthy, and considering the only places I have heard tell me this have been human, I choose not to trust them, especially when their assertion is unprovable (for who can come back to the dead to tell me if I should accept their great offer?)
I agree, but your entire last post had nothing really to do with that, so I was simply debating your "logic of the 10 points".
Nothing is provable. God's not going to come down and talk to you, so you can rule out ever being proved anything relating to God. I understand the logic that God should talk to you if he's real, because he talked to all those other people, or atleast they claim he did. It would be nice if God talked to me, and very reassuring, but until then I've got to continue searching for the truth and engaging people with opposite mind sets to see if they've got anything that moves me from my position. I'm not immovable. But what I believe God did say to those people makes perfect sense, and the logic I've encountered has only affirmed it.
-------------------- If you spare a little of your imagination . . .
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