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Offlinedead
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: Plasmid]
    #9132697 - 10/25/08 04:28 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Baeocystin is simply psilocybin, minus one methyl group. Little is known of this compound, other than 10 mg is considered to be a full entheogenic dose, and its action is similier to psilocybin/psilocin. A fellow at shroomery, MJ Shroomer, claims to have injested this compound in its pure form. You may want to seek him out, or at least search past posts of his at www.shroomery.org, to find more information on this intriguing alkaloid. Let us know what you come up with.




Sorry, I can't seem to find a better quote for it, and this certainly is not evidence for anything other than the information is there for someone willing to see the effort in seeking it out. Myself, I'm too old and tired to be participating these arguments... believe what you feel comfortable believing.

As for evidence for activity of Psilocin, are you sure you want me to prove to you psilocin is active?

And for the rest, how exactly should I prove the claim that some substances have not been sufficiently studied? Or what exactly is it that you want me to back up? I'm a bit confused here.


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"The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows."

Links:
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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: dead]
    #9132751 - 10/25/08 04:40 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Pay more attention and don't take my post so absolutely literally.  I already said that psilocin was active but that I knew of no evidence to suggest that baeocystin, etc. are active.  Hence, I was asking you to provide evidence that baeocystin, norbaeocystin, etc. are active.


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OfflineNature Boy
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: Plasmid]
    #9132880 - 10/25/08 05:05 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Does this help the discussion?  From Shulgin in TIKAL, reference below:

EXTENSIONS AND COMMENTARY : There are two generalizations implicit here, one of which I am quite at peace with, but the other is both complex and disturbing. The OK item is the casual equation between the hydroxy compound psilocin, the acetate ester, and the
phosphate ester, psilocybin. As I had discussed in the CZ-74 to CEY-19 entries in 4-HO-DET, there is no proof that the ester goes to the indolol metabolically, but it is a good guess, and there have been no demonstrated differences in their pharmacology. Ditto here, with psilocin and psilocybin. I have explored both of them as pure chemicals, and I find them completely interchangeable as to their pharmacological properties.
Erowid Online Texts : TiHKAL #18 4-HO-DMT
http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/tihkal/tihkal18.shtml (3 of 5) [11/03/2001 00:03:54]

N.B.


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All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies.  Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit.  Note well:  Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend.  If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.

                                                                               

Edited by Nature Boy (10/25/08 05:06 PM)

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Offlinedead
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: Nature Boy]
    #9133272 - 10/25/08 06:31 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I'm sure 99% of the people here have read TIHKAL. Shulgin's statement gives no evidence to either way, he merely states he find psilocybin and psilocin interchangeable, which is an entirely subjedtive statement. And at the time TIHKAL was written he said he hasn't seen evidence of dephosphorylation occuring metabolically.

If you're really interested about baeocystin then by all means get some and try it for yourself. It is of decreased activity certainly, since it's a secondary amine, but that is not the same as inactive.


--------------------
"The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows."

Links:
:regularshroom:Nibin's Guide for Noobs
:regularshroom:some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: dead]
    #9135353 - 10/26/08 02:38 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dead said:
And at the time TIHKAL was written he said he hasn't seen evidence of dephosphorylation occuring metabolically.




Wow, I always thought that TIHKAL and PIHKAL are substandard peices of work (especially for Shulgin, who is capable of far better work - these books are garbage) but I wonder how he could have missed the evidence for psilocybin's conversion to psilocin.  He didn't seem to look very hard because there is evidence of this (see the references at the end).

I'm not sure what your point is when you say that his being unable to tell the difference between psilocin and psilocybin is subjective.  Of course it's subjective.  That's the point, isn't it?  He couldn't subjectively tell the difference.  I agree, however, that his singular experience means jack shit.

Quote:

If you're really interested about baeocystin then by all means get some and try it for yourself.




So, you have no evidence?

Quote:

It is of decreased activity certainly, since it's a secondary amine, but that is not the same as inactive.




Evidence that its supposed decreased activity correlates with the alkyl substituents on the amine?

References

Horita, A. and Weber, LJ.  The enzymic dephosphorylation and oxidation of psilocybin and psilocin by mammalian tissue homogenates.  Biochem Pharmacol.  7, pp. 47 - 54.  (1961)

Horita, A. and Weber, LJ.  Dephosphorylation of psilocybin in the intact mouse.  Toxicol Appl Pharmacol.  4, pp. 730 - 737.  (1962)


Horita, A. and Weber, LJ.  Dephosphorylation of psilocybin to psilocin by alkaline phosphatase. Proc Soc Exp Biol Med.  106, pp. 32 - 34.  (1961)

Edited by Plasmid (10/26/08 02:49 AM)

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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: Plasmid]
    #9135884 - 10/26/08 08:31 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I think we have to accept that only subjective reports of effect will ever suffice to determine the level of activity caused by a psychedelic drug

if baeocystin was active, I WOULD THINK that someone has tested it on its own.. if no one has.. then we should have A LOT MORE HOPE FOR phsychopharmacology.. because this is very elementary...


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Offlinedead
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9136285 - 10/26/08 11:17 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

There are some reports available of baeocystin being tested. I seem to remember someone trying it at 10mg.

Also other secondary-amine-tryptamines have been reported to have similar effects to their dialkylated counterparts but being of very decreased activity, so a simple SAR prediction would suggest baeocystin to have some sort of activity.

But even if baeocystin is inactive on it's own it doesn't mean it would not have synergistic effects with other psychedelics, such as psilocin.


--------------------
"The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows."

Links:
:regularshroom:Nibin's Guide for Noobs
:regularshroom:some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: dead]
    #9137054 - 10/26/08 02:52 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dead said:
There are some reports available of baeocystin being tested. I seem to remember someone trying it at 10mg.




I've seen an unsubstantiated report of a report about a 10 mg test of baeocystin, but that's it.  As far as we know, it could be a rumour or some misinformed person who thought they had baeocystin and didn't.  If you can find the report, I'd like to see it, but I've also heard of a single "report" existing and have never seen it.

Quote:

so a simple SAR prediction would suggest baeocystin to have some sort of activity.




That's a good argument, but doesn't get us much farther than being able to suspect that baeocystin might have hallucinogenic activity and that if it does, that it would be like psilocin.

Quote:

But even if baeocystin is inactive on it's own it doesn't mean it would not have synergistic effects with other psychedelics, such as psilocin.




True, but there still is no reason to think that it is either active on its own or that it has a synergistic effect.  This is speculation.  We could just as easily speculate that baeocystin might have antagonistic effects towards hallucinogens and actually makes them less effective when combined.

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Offlinedead
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: Plasmid]
    #9137400 - 10/26/08 04:07 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Plasmid said:
I've seen an unsubstantiated report of a report about a 10 mg test of baeocystin, but that's it.  As far as we know, it could be a rumour or some misinformed person who thought they had baeocystin and didn't.  If you can find the report, I'd like to see it, but I've also heard of a single "report" existing and have never seen it.





You have me there, I'm yet to be able to provide substantial evidence on the claim. Let me know if you find any proof one way or another.

As for the nature of activity, I never said it would be hallucinogenic. Based on SAR I strongly suspect it to be active, but not very potent, and the effects could very well even be antagonistic, although that is highly unlikely.


--------------------
"The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows."

Links:
:regularshroom:Nibin's Guide for Noobs
:regularshroom:some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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