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 mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
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 A short Discussion For GGreatOne234 and Others 
#908468 - 09/25/02 10:09 PM (21 years, 6 months ago) |
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Regarding yur comments about 17 different strains of Thai (Koh Samui Mushrooms).
There are four different varieties of water Buffalos on Koh Samui Island. The primary species is Bubalis Bubualus which consists of one gre haired buffalo and one pink buffalo. Int he southern portion of Thailand there are one pink bufallo to every ten grey ones.
Theen there are two Bubalis arnee, South Asian Buffalos found usually in the Philippine Islands, Borneo and some areas of Indonesia and Kuaula Lumpur.
The B. arnee are kkept separate from the Southeast Asian water buffalos which Ipost pictures of the pink and grey ones.
Then there are several cattle farmers who live apart from areas where there are water bufalos. We have three main cattle ont he island, Bos Guarus, Bos Indicus (Bentang) and Bos sundaicus (Katang). They are in different villages and have no contacts with other buffalos or cattle.
Then there are three differentkinds of Brahman dairy cattle who are grain fed and not grass fed.
Thus each individual areas have various different strains of Cubensis. If ou were interested in this you would have erealized it. I for onwe like to know who gros the shrooms I pick and what they eat and where they exist.
ANd there are many who are also intereted in these facts.
Maybe since you ar so busy in Florida you can begin learning wehat kind of cattle frequent your fields and what they produce and find out if they are alfalfa fed or grain fed, find out if there are differences in their potencies becasue of the nutrients intheir soil. Learn their specific habitats and their symbiotic relationships in their environment which helps produce the shrooms that you collect and then post images of them and then maybe you will not be so high and mighty and off-critical on subjects you assume you think you know about and have no comprehension of what it is I and my group of people each year do here.
Adn I olny spend four to six weeks out of the year in Southeast Asia so wuit implying to everyone at the shroomery that I live here.
ANd then have a shroomy day,
mj
Oh yes. Here is a tiger tooth for you to enjoy.
It cost me $140.00 U.S. Dollars and I enjoyed spending every penny.
mj
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Anonymous
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Re: A short Discussion For GGreatOne234 and Others [Re: mjshroomer]
#908509 - 09/25/02 10:24 PM (21 years, 6 months ago) |
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- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -
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 _VisioN_
The Crying Orc
Registered: 07/29/02
Posts: 281
Loc: Valhalla
Last seen: 20 years, 9 days
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Re: A short Discussion For GGreatOne234 and Others [Re: ]
#909919 - 09/26/02 01:24 PM (21 years, 6 months ago) |
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i agree 2 grown ass men citchin the shit out of eachother c'mon now!.
-Vision
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ShRoOmZ
Long live...METAL!!!
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Phoshaman
Litteringannnnddddd?
Registered: 06/01/99
Posts: 1,557
Loc: FLAHHHIDAAA
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: A short Discussion For GGreatOne234 and Others [Re: mjshroomer]
#910047 - 09/26/02 02:08 PM (21 years, 6 months ago) |
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I have to chime in here...
How could you say that a cubensis which grows on different Buffalo species' dung is a different 'strain' than each other one picked on a different Buffalo's dung, and/or dung which is grain/alfalfa fed?
The same spores are circulating around that area, and therefore the animals are digesting the same spores, but giving off different nutrients.
So are you trying to say that if I grew an Ecuador Cubensis on a dung casing, and an Ecuador Cubensis on a verm/soil mixture, that they will be two different strains?
I hope not.
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mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
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Re: A short Discussion For GGreatOne234 and Others [Re: Phoshaman]
#910699 - 09/26/02 08:09 PM (21 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well : Phoshaman,
According to the scientific literature I would say to you that the only known species of Psilocybe from Ecuador happens to be Psilocybe subcubensis and not Psilocybe cubensis (and iof course Psilocybe yungensis, which is however a tree/woodchip fungus). There are more than 14 deposited collections of this species (P. subcubensis) from Ecuador and they have all been identified as P. subcubensis not P. cubensis (which may or may not exist in Ecuador), so whomever sold you your spores or prtnts or syringes has no idea what they are selling you.
ANd maybe strain was the wrong term to use since as you pointed out that they are all P. cubensis and/or P. subcubensis so I guess the word Race would be more appropriate. However there are big differences in their potencies from indoor to outdoor grown cubies.
I would also like to point out that later inth e day when I can find another photoshop on a computer here I will show a photo of the cow wioth one bent horn and one regular horn. I have picked shrooms in his field for three years and he produces the smallest P. cubensis imaginalable. NEver large than a quarter size of the campo and never more than one inch in height yet they are the same in his manure year after year for the last three seasons.
And chemical analysis by Gartz, Bigwood, McKenna, Richard Hans Norland, Merlin, ALlen and Stijve have allready shownm that grain fed cattle produce a more potent strain of mushroom containing higher levelis of psilocybine than those who feed in the wild.
This has also been proven in strains grown indoors in vitro under laboratory conditions as to those which occured naturally in alfalfa and other wild grasses.
Have a shroomereric experience
Edited by mjshroomer (09/26/02 08:27 PM)
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GGreatOne234
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 8,946
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 Re: A short Discussion For GGreatOne234 and Others [Re: Phoshaman]
#910741 - 09/26/02 08:24 PM (21 years, 6 months ago) |
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Feeders are set out in the middle of fields.
This is how i know if a cow is being fed grain or not.
I too, believe it or not, take interest in the bovine,
They are my favorite animals actually.
I have also met a few water buffalos,
That was in the yellow mountains of China,
And also in the countrysides of Guilin "The closest city under Heaven".
You may see in coming days as i have film to be developed still,
I took a photograph of a blue Chinese mushroom-shaped garbage can.
Interesting lions tooth momento,
Keep shroomin,
Safe travels,
GG
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GGreatOne234
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 8,946
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 Re: A short Discussion For GGreatOne234 and Others [Re: mjshroomer]
#910822 - 09/26/02 08:52 PM (21 years, 6 months ago) |
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Cow with one bent horn - wurd.
Our lab technicians have been working on the Copelandia cyanescens strain of Cambodia.
Also my own Copelandia strain of florida.
Our technicians don't let me near the Copees,
They say to just to stick with the Cubies,
And my Annie agrees.
The lab tech's are also doing 2 Psilocybe Cubensis strains.
Cambodia and Florida.
But, Floridas where i'm at, so this is where i Shroom.
If i was in Cambodia, well i suppose i would be Shrooming there too.
Keep on shroomin,
GGreatOne234
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Zen Peddler
 
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Re: A short Discussion For GGreatOne234 and Others [Re: mjshroomer]
#911629 - 09/27/02 04:51 AM (21 years, 6 months ago) |
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This post seems a little strange. Because there are varying types of buffalo on Ko Samui (which is geographically a medium-sized island) we have different varieties of cubensis? Well i suppose that each mushroom patch has irts own genetics - so mushrooms from one town would have different characteristics to specimens from others.
The point about the buffalos seems pretty irrelevant to me. We have MANY varieties of cattle in Australia and the cubies are always similar. Despite the cattle not being in contact on Ko Samui, the island is pretty small and spores would still travel substantially around the island. Sure cattle may carry the spores of cubensis - what ofcourse they travel by other means as well...
For those who dont know - Ko Samui in itself was one big coconut farm until thai tourists discovered it - internationals soon after.
It was the Germans who first told the natives of their psychoactive mushrooms - and they jumped on this as a way to make money from tourists - there is nothing historical or spiritual about the mushrooms in ko samui and ko pha ngan - and i never met a local who ate them in five monthes. And the copes were better than the cubies there anyway...
AND if that is a real tiger's tooth your purchase alarms me greatly!!!!
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Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Re: A short Discussion For GGreatOne234 and Others [Re: Zen Peddler]
#911631 - 09/27/02 05:03 AM (21 years, 6 months ago) |
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MJ your point about subcubensis in equador is also problematic - the differences between cubensis and subcubensis are all microscopic and are more significant than the differences between Clelands true Ps.Subaeruginosa and Guzman's Ps.Australiana (the only difference is pluerocystidia from confirmed specimens of subs and australiana), Eucalypta (p.cystidia again and possible spore-size variation seen only in some finds) and tasmaniana.
On this note, Buchanan also feels STRONGLY that they are all one entity as Chang and Mills protein analysis suggest.
Recentally Guzman identified specimens of the wavy-capped mushroom here in melbourne as Ps.Australiana - these mushrooms are identical microscopically to all other Victorian woodlovers - lageniform pleurocystidia. I have seen these mushrooms and specimens from NSW with ventricose rostrate/mucronate p.cystidia (characteristics of subs as per cleland and eucalypta as per Guzman) and im 90% sure they are the same mushroom. Ill be cultivating to be sure.
And here is a list of references for you:
ReferencesAberdeen (1976), Bond & Harris (1964), Bougher & Syme (1998), Brundrett et al. (1996), Chang & Mills (1992: A, and N.Z.), Cleland (1927; 1934a: B), Cole et al. (1984: C), A.B.Cribb & J.W.Cribb (1981a), Cronin (1989: C), Dashorst & Jessop (1990: C), Eygelsheim (1981), Fuhrer (1985: as 'Psilocybe sp.', C; 1993: as 'Psilocybe sp.', C), Grgurinovic (1997), Guzm?n (1979: A; 1980; 1983: A, B, and eucalypta, A, australiana, A, B, and tasmaniana, A, B), Guzm?n & Vergeer (1978: and eucalypta, australiana and tasmaniana), Guzm?n & Watling (1978: and eucalypta, A, australiana, A, and tasmaniana, A), Guzm?n et al. (1993a: do not accept the synonymy of Chang & Mills; 1993b: do not accept the synonymy of Chang & Mills, eucalypta, N.Z., australiana, N.Z.), Hall (1973: B), Horne (2000: N.Z.), Mallett & Grgurinovic (1996), Margot & Watling (1981: and eucalypta and australiana), Mathieson (1946), May (1989: eucalypta; 1998), Perkal et al. (1980), Picker & Rickards (1970), Shepherd & Totterdell (1988: and as 'Psilocybe sp.', C), Sinnott (1976), Southcott (1974: C; 1987: B, and eucalypta; 1996: and eucalypta, australiana and tasmanica), Talbot (1971b; 1976), Willis (1934a: C; 1963: C; 1978b: and 'aff.'), Willis et al. (1936), Young (1994: A, B, C).
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mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
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Re: A short Discussion For GGreatOne234 and Others [Re: Zen Peddler]
#911869 - 09/27/02 08:55 AM (21 years, 6 months ago) |
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Thanks for the references Bluemeanie, however I have personally corresoopnded with most of those mentioned in your list of which most are in my oaoer poublished inthe journal of Psychoactive Drugs.
This is a similar problem to the Kreigelsteiner paper which laimed tha P. Maire, P. cyanescens, P. Bohemica and P. serbia were the same species although they are all macrosopically different from each other.
As for the Ecuadorian, I did note that P. cubei\nsis most likely exisrts in Ecuador but as of yet has not been biotanicaoly idebntified form there in the scientific literature. Thus until sooenone does it remains that P. subcubensis is the species being sold as P. cubensis and that is where my voice stepps into the matter.
I believe all of those four species are similar butdifferent and prponababaly gvery macroscopically different to a staioned mycologist.
Anyway, god points to be well taken.
Cannot see real tired john motr ;later.
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Joshua
Holoman
Registered: 10/27/98
Posts: 5,398
Loc: The Matrix
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 Re: A short Discussion For GGreatOne234 and Others [Re: mjshroomer]
#911910 - 09/27/02 09:22 AM (21 years, 6 months ago) |
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Could you post some sources for more info regarding subcubensis. I have not been able to find much writing on them.
Joshua
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The Shroomery Bookstore
Great books for inquiring minds!
"Life After Death is Saprophytic!"
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Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Re: A short Discussion For GGreatOne234 and Others [Re: Joshua]
#913147 - 09/27/02 06:55 PM (21 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ha! I thought you might know most of them. Do you correspond with Buchanan or Chang/Mills? We have sort of been doing our own study here of these mushrooms with hlp from Teonan, Workman, Reville as well as a professor of Botany at a Melbourne Univeristy and also a variety of relevantly qualitified mycologists in Australia.
None of the mycologists or botanists in Australia follow the Guzman delineation. There are macrocsopic differences between these mushrooms, just as there are between mushrooms from different patches. Through cultivation these macroscopic differences are stable and remain present through generations of fruiting (although i have four yet to cultivate). The differences microscopically are far less subtle however - spore size is nearly always the same, the p.cystidia are always hyaline. The shape varies from lageniform to ventricose.
I am having a friend conduct protein analysis on specimens of ps.Australiana and ps.Subaeruginosa from melbourne and adelaide (where cleland first found them) and this will give a definitive answer. The reason being that Chang and Mills were not able to find Australiana or SUbaeruginosa with lageniform pluerocystidia (all subs in melbourne have this characteristic)
Also strangely, none of the mycologists ive spoken to have ever come across Ps.Tasmaniana growing in manure - many have found it in lignious substrates, but never manure.
We'll keep studying anyway and ill let you know what we find.
subcubensis - Ott and Bigwood 1978
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mjshroomer
Sage
Registered: 07/21/99
Posts: 13,774
Loc: gone with my shrooms
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Re: A short Discussion For GGreatOne234 and Others [Re: Joshua]
#913312 - 09/27/02 08:03 PM (21 years, 6 months ago) |
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Guzman's The Genus Psilocybe is online, however I would have to be home on my opwn computer to send yout he URL. I have posted it at various times at the shroomery but I can never find anything witht he search enjine due to my being computer sttupid.
Mj
I'll talk more with you about the Australian species adfter I retrurn from ASia.
John
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GGreatOne234
Stranger
Registered: 12/23/99
Posts: 8,946
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 Re: A short Discussion For GGreatOne234 and Others [Re: mjshroomer]
#915566 - 09/28/02 06:46 PM (21 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well Mr. John W. Allen, 
Here are my little buddies!~
I used to add Cubensis spores into their little plastic feeders.
-These were of course Cube spores from the same mushrooms that were harvested from this exact field.
Soon, Maybe I will add a few "Cambodian" Cubensis prints into those feeders..
-Then what'll we have?
I suppose that I will be propogating Cambodian Cubes, and no longer Manatee County Florida Cubes.
-Yeah, I might just throw some Ecuador's in there too,
Then I'll have some subCubensis' too.
I have this cow field thing down to an exact science now don't we.
-Why yes we do.
Annie is telling me that i am being annoying so i will leave you with this image,
This is not an asian cube, this justa Cube growing in Florida,
Not really any specific 'strain' of Cube, justa cube in Florida.
Keep on shroomin,
And you also have a very Shroomy little day 
Keep shroomin,
GGreatOne234
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Zen Peddler
Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 6,379
Loc: orbit
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Re: A short Discussion For GGreatOne234 and Others [Re: mjshroomer]
#915701 - 09/28/02 08:14 PM (21 years, 6 months ago) |
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MJ 'I believe all of those four species are similar butdifferent and prponababaly gvery macroscopically different to a staioned mycologist.'
I believe that the individuals who have examined Australiana and Subaeruginosa, one of whom having a PHd in Botany and who is world-reknowned (i m not however able to quote the person's name), another of which is currently studying for a PHd in biology would be far more qualified than many so-called experts in the field of psilocybe mushrooms and would be offended by the above inference. The individual who is an associate of Buchanan can also demonstrate considerable credentials.
I myself have painstakenly examined specimens of Australiana and Subaeruginosa with the people and i do not doubt what that examination appears to indicate. I have also read Chang and Mills painstakenly, and have spoken to the above contacts at length about protein analysis and what it indicates. It appears to indicate that - atleast - Ps.Eucalypta and Ps.Subaeruginosa are the same entity. Buchanan's work re-itterates this finding in New Zealand.
I would be happy to provide you or Guzman and material you desire from this study and look forward to further discussion.
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