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OregonHerbalist
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Found a nice Amanita today..
#9133113 - 10/25/08 05:53 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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This one caught me off guard today, because I found this in Vancouver, Washington... And we havent had rain lately, but we have had rather foggy, damp mornings..
Edited by OregonHerbalist (10/25/08 06:04 PM)
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thetonebone72
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What are those other mushrooms you are holding in the 2nd pic? That's a big ass amanita! Nice find.
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mushroomhunter10
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: thetonebone72]
#9134207 - 10/25/08 09:46 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I can imagine what's under the mushroom that created the mound. Probably looks like a big friggin' egg. Like an Ostrich egg. That's probably what made the mound.
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mushroomhunter10
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Is this Amanita flavoconia?
I'm curious now.
Thanks.
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mushroomhunter10
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No I'm sorry. flavoconia is Eastern U.S.
Which species is this?? Driving me nuts.
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N2loma
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Looks like it may be a type of Amanita muscaria, but I can't rule out a blusher (A. rubescens). Did the flesh stain/blush at all?
-------------------- "So can you tell me what exactly does freedom mean/ If I'm not free to be as twisted as I wanna be" -Divide by Disturbed Good Guitars Don't Cry
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weiliiiiiii
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: N2loma]
#9134410 - 10/25/08 10:23 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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It looks like a muscaria type, did you notice any rings around the base of the stipe?
was the stipe shaggy at all?
its hard to tell from your pics
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mushroomhunter10
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: weiliiiiiii]
#9134424 - 10/25/08 10:28 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's a big Fly!
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OregonHerbalist
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N2loma, it stained a green/bluish underneath the red orange flesh I peeld off..
weiliiiiiii, this one had no rings of anykind, just a nice relitively white and smoothish (for an amanita) stem..
Is it an active amanita?
Edited by OregonHerbalist (10/25/08 11:08 PM)
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mushroomhunter10
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I was just reading that rubescens is VERY tasty...
Too risky for my palate...
Oh. The active Fly Agaric is in Siberia. Not U.S.
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Beege
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if it didn't have concentric shaggy rings on and above the bulb it is not active.
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Beege
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Quote:
mushroomhunter10 said:
Oh. The active Fly Agaric is in Siberia. Not U.S.
There are A. muscarias in more places than just Siberia, including the US.
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OregonHerbalist
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Right on mushroomhunter10, I was reading also that North American A. rubescens is edible when cooked. But the European Amanita rubescens is known to contain a hemolytic poison in its raw state; it is unknown whether North American A. rubescens and A. novinupta are similarly toxic in its raw state. This toxin is destroyed by cooking
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mushroomhunter10
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OregonHerbalist.
Did you get a spore print?? More pics by any chance?
I want the final ID on this one. It's bugging me...
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OregonHerbalist
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Beege, sadly it did not have any rings on or above the bulbus base.. Im thinking now this is A. rubescens?
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Beege
gatherer
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Did it stain red at all? Doesn't look like A. rubescens to me.
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OregonHerbalist
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it has a White spore print
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OregonHerbalist
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beege, It did not stain red at all..
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DannyGlick
Registered: 04/14/08
Posts: 3,889
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Not Amanita rubescens.edit***polish
Edited by DannyGlick (10/25/08 11:48 PM)
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OregonHerbalist
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I was thinking a Amanita muscaria var. formosa at first, but it doesnt have the features or rings at all on the stem, or the base of stem.. im stumped on this on,lol
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Beege
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: DannyGlick]
#9134766 - 10/25/08 11:27 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I was thinking that too, but the stipe seems to be the wrong color and it seems too large to be flavoconia.
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mushroomhunter10
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: Beege]
#9134775 - 10/25/08 11:30 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yes the stalk is white. Flavoconia should be yellow(ish)...
I think it's a big-ass Fly.
Did you pull it out completely or just cut above ground?
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OregonHerbalist
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I twisted the base of the bulbus part of the stem, and pulled it out so that the bulbous part was intact, but whatever was underneath it is still in the ground.
Edited by OregonHerbalist (10/25/08 11:34 PM)
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DannyGlick
Registered: 04/14/08
Posts: 3,889
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: Beege]
#9134784 - 10/25/08 11:32 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Beege said: I was thinking that too, but the stipe seems to be the wrong color and it seems too large to be flavoconia.
Yea way too big eh?
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Beege
gatherer
Registered: 08/02/08
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: DannyGlick]
#9134797 - 10/25/08 11:36 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I found what I believe to be A. Phalloides today.
this is kinda off topic but whatever
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Beege
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: Beege]
#9134803 - 10/25/08 11:37 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I heard there was a var. of muscaria that lacked the shaggy rings at the base on this site once. Can't remember where...
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DannyGlick
Registered: 04/14/08
Posts: 3,889
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: Beege]
#9134807 - 10/25/08 11:37 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Cool.Never found that one yet.
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OregonHerbalist
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: DannyGlick]
#9134810 - 10/25/08 11:38 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I got another pic showing the base beter..
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mushroomhunter10
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Just reading that: A. muscaria var. formosa has yellow-orange cap. A. muscaria var. flavivolvata has yellow universal veil.
Hope this helps nail it!
-------------------- Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD Get a free (PAINLESS) bone marrow testing kit and help save lives HERE. Jesus if you're reading this, please come back already. We need you now more than ever! The U.S. Constitution! Best WBS Tek EZ Potato-Honey Agar Tek MY TRADES
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DannyGlick
Registered: 04/14/08
Posts: 3,889
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I don't suggest you consume that mushroom.Seeing as how much debate as to what it could be.You know that though.
I can't see rings on the base so I won't say muscaria,even though they may have been worn away.
There are some good Amanita identifiers here(I'm not one),I'm sure one will pop in and help you out sooner or later.
Edited by DannyGlick (10/25/08 11:46 PM)
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Beege
gatherer
Registered: 08/02/08
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we are not confused by the color of the cap, but by the lack of rings on the stipe.
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weiliiiiiii
Stranger
Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 9,711
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: Beege]
#9134904 - 10/25/08 11:58 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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dont eat that fucking monster
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mushroomhunter10
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Formosa or guessowii.
I'm doubting guessowii because it's common in The East.
This is a tricky little sucker. We should ask that one lady who's the best identifier in the world.
-------------------- Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD Get a free (PAINLESS) bone marrow testing kit and help save lives HERE. Jesus if you're reading this, please come back already. We need you now more than ever! The U.S. Constitution! Best WBS Tek EZ Potato-Honey Agar Tek MY TRADES
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OregonHerbalist
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I really appreciate all the help from you guys.. This forum is great!!
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mushroomhunter10
Jack-Of-All-Trades
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I'm just a newb trying to learn. Great forum for sure.
-------------------- Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD Get a free (PAINLESS) bone marrow testing kit and help save lives HERE. Jesus if you're reading this, please come back already. We need you now more than ever! The U.S. Constitution! Best WBS Tek EZ Potato-Honey Agar Tek MY TRADES
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Beege
gatherer
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Quote:
mushroomhunter10 said: Formosa or guessowii.
I'm doubting guessowii because it's common in The East.
This is a tricky little sucker. We should ask that one lady who's the best identifier in the world.
I think we have established that we shouldn't be calling it a muscaria var. ANYTHING.
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: Beege]
#9135967 - 10/26/08 09:23 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Looks like a faded Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata.
I found this interesting.. A 2006 molecular phylogenetic study of different regional populations of A. muscaria by Geml, et al. found three distinct clades within this species representing, roughly, Eurasian, Eurasian "subalpine", and North American populations. (Alaska contains examples of all three clades, leading to the hypothesis that this was the center of diversification of this species.) The study also looked at four named varieties of this species; var. alba, var. flavivolvata, var. formosa (including var. guessowii), and var. regalis from both areas. All four varieties were found within both the Eurasian and North American clades, evidence that these morphological forms are simply polymorphisms found throughout the species rather than distinct subspecies or varieties.[19]
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mushroomhunter10
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: HerbBaker]
#9136141 - 10/26/08 10:37 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hmm. That's pretty interesting.
So even if the species is one, and not separate as the snippet reads. Which of the three clades is it??
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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It would be part of the North American clade/group.
The data suggests the three clades represent cryptic phylogenetic species with partially overlapping geographic distributions rather than being allopatric populations. All phylogenetic species share at least two morphological varieties with other species, suggesting ancestral polymorphism in pileus and wart colour pre-dating their speciations.
Edited by HerbBaker (10/26/08 11:14 AM)
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OregonHerbalist
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: HerbBaker]
#9138012 - 10/26/08 05:53 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thanks everyone... Warriorsoul, im about 80% leaning towards the Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata?
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DiabloDios
Stranger
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That's formosa. We've been seeing alot of them here in Eugene. Really gorgeous mushrooms, bright orange in the center fading to yellow but they turn all pale yellow when wet. They get huge!
flavivolvata has a yellow universal veil, not white
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Beege
gatherer
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Quote:
OregonHerbalist said: Thanks everyone... Warriorsoul, im about 80% leaning towards the Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata?
One way or the other this should be considered educational for the next time you find a muscaria. I would not recommend eating this as it does not have the rings needed to make a positive ID.
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OregonHerbalist
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: Beege]
#9139345 - 10/26/08 10:09 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I wont eat it for sure, thanks again guys..
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: DiabloDios]
#9140651 - 10/27/08 05:52 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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well, formosa is a european species.. did you read any of my posts?lol
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DiabloDios
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: HerbBaker]
#9140833 - 10/27/08 08:11 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well, if you're saying formosa is exclusively European there isn't much reason to read any of your posts, warriorsoul, except for amusement. lol
I've been picking these same ones for a while and they have been id'ed already. I was just trying to shed a little light.
I could say, warriorsoul, that you didn't read my post. flavivolvata has a yellow universal veil. The ones I find and the one mushroomexpert posted pics of has a white universal veil. formosa.
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: HerbBaker]
#9141226 - 10/27/08 10:14 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
warriorsoul said: All phylogenetic species share at least two morphological varieties with other species, suggesting ancestral polymorphism in pileus and wart colour pre-dating their speciations.
This means veil color is not a concrete indicator, as all three clades show some variation. This data confirms what Dr. Rod Tulloss has documented, no species coming from the continental US have proven to be formosa.. Not to say it isn't possible, but the worlds foremost Amanita expert says otherwise.
Also even earlier Dr. Rolf Singer and others have said that what has been called Amanita muscaria var. formosa on the West Coast, is not the same as the European mushroom that has this name.
Edited by HerbBaker (10/27/08 10:55 AM)
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: DiabloDios]
#9141503 - 10/27/08 11:31 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
That's formosa. We've been seeing alot of them here in Eugene. Really gorgeous mushrooms, bright orange in the center fading to yellow but they turn all pale yellow when wet. They get huge!
Amanita muscaria var. formosa is a European species, it does not occur in the US.
Quote:
flavivolvata has a yellow universal veil, not white
Flavivolvata has a yellow universal veil the first day or 2, but it fades to white very quickly in the sun and is rarely seen when it is still yellow.
Quote:
One way or the other this should be considered educational for the next time you find a muscaria. I would not recommend eating this as it does not have the rings needed to make a positive ID.
We might be being a little paranoid by not ID'ing muscarias as such until the concentric rings can be seen. Many samples of muscaria don't have the concentric rings for various reasons but are still muscaria.
I like the idea of making sure people have muscaria before we tell them to eat it, but we are telling people not to eat mushrooms that are definitely Amanita muscaria just because we don't see the concentric rings on the base.
Given the lack of dangerous lookalikes to Amanita muscaria, I am not sure that we need to see the concentric rings every time.
Deciding just what we need to see before we tell someone to go off and eat it is a difficult decision and I am not sure what the right answer is.
These are the A. muscaria lookalikes that I am aware of. I don't think any of these are toxic but they might be and they might have unpredictable chemicals or amounts of ibotenic acid or muscimol.
Amanita flavoconia: http://www.mushroomexpert.com/images/work/work_amanita_flavoconia_01_thumb.jpg
Amanita frostiana: http://pluto.njcc.com/~ret/amanita/species/frostian.jpg
Amanita subflavoconia: http://pluto.njcc.com/~ret/amanita/species/subfrost.jpg
Amanita parcivolvata: http://www.mushroomexpert.com/images/kuo3/amanita_parcivolvata_01.jpghttp://www.mushroomexpert.com/images/kuo3/amanita_parcivolvata_01.jpg
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Heres another muscaria look alike that occurs in the northeast. Amanita crenulata http://eticomm.net/~ret/amanita/species/crenulat.html
The muscaria chemotaxonomic group of amanitas (muscaria, pantherina, gemmata, flavoconia, parcivolvata, flavorubescens, frostiana, franchetii, regalis, and more) contain no amatoxins or phallotoxins, and are not hepatoxic.
I'm still looking for the chemical results of each species.
Edited by HerbBaker (10/27/08 06:37 PM)
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DiabloDios
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
That's formosa. We've been seeing alot of them here in Eugene. Really gorgeous mushrooms, bright orange in the center fading to yellow but they turn all pale yellow when wet. They get huge!
Amanita muscaria var. formosa is a European species, it does not occur in the US.
You're right, alan rockefeller, you identified mine as guessowii, remember? I'm saying his looks like the same thing and he's in the same general locale. They have been found alot locally the last coupla months all over the Willamette valley and folks call them formosa though the name changed 5 years or so ago to guessowii. At the Mt Pisgah mushroom festival yesterday these were on display as formosa. Maybe I should have corrected the Cascades Mycological Society? lol. My national audubon society field guide still calls them formosa and a websearch brings up plenty of n american formosa. Anyway that's what I believe my neighbor here has, guessowii, however you say it, lol. They're coming up all over right now!
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DiabloDios
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: HerbBaker]
#9143875 - 10/27/08 06:50 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
warriorsoul said: Heres another muscaria look alike that occurs in the northeast.
That's interesting. There's lots of lookalikes around the pacific northwest too.
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: DiabloDios]
#9143892 - 10/27/08 06:53 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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guessowii do grow in PNW, but are yellow with an orange center rather than red, the later color tends to remain with flavivolvata when it fades in the sun.
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DiabloDios
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: HerbBaker]
#9143944 - 10/27/08 07:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
warriorsoul said: guessowii do grow in PNW, but are more orange than red in the center, the later color tends to remain with flavivolvata when it fades in the sun.
They vary more than that. Some more yellow...did you see the pic in my earlier post in this thread? The 2 monsters my wife is holding? They also go pale yellow when they get rained on(see my gallery). The same mycelium bed can be under blackberry vines and give really dark ones like she's holding, out on the trail a few feet away nice sunburst caps! I'll getcha some pics tomorrow. I saw some big ones bursting through a few days ago that should be at full sail tomorrow.
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: DiabloDios]
#9143991 - 10/27/08 07:12 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I was pointing out the general differences... Your mushrooms are Amanita muscaria var. flavivolvata
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Alan Rockefeller
Mycologist
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 48,358
Last seen: 6 days, 15 hours
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: HerbBaker]
#9144295 - 10/27/08 08:13 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The muscaria chemotaxonomic group of amanitas (muscaria, pantherina, gemmata, flavoconia, parcivolvata, flavorubescens, frostiana, franchetii, regalis, and more) contain no amatoxins or phallotoxins, and are not hepatoxic.
I agree except that franchetii is an edible.
Quote:
guessowii do grow in PNW, but are yellow with an orange center rather than red, the later color tends to remain with flavivolvata when it fades in the sun.
According to Tulloss's guessowii page, it doesn't occur west of Michigan, and anyone who finds it west of Michigan should send a dried sample to him.
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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So what have the specimens of guessowii turned out to be?
I'm wondering with the new clade designations will flavivolvata be given species status?
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: HerbBaker]
#9154751 - 10/29/08 03:37 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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So i guess there is gonna be some name changes coming up for the muscaria group.
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: HerbBaker]
#9158099 - 10/30/08 06:29 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Apparently the yellow muscaria in the PNW are variants of Amanita muscaria var. muscaria The yellow muscaria on the east coast(guessowii)are variants of A. muscaria var. flavivolvata.
I found this quote by Dr. Tolloss on mushroom observer.
"Yes, there is a yellow variant of muscaria that occurs in the PNW. Dr. Jozsef Geml (Univ. of Alaska, Fairbanks) has been working on the DNA of the muscarioid taxa of North America. His present conclusion is that the yellow muscarioid entity of the west is not a separate species. It is a yellow variant that has arisen multiple times from the true (largely Eurasian) red muscaria subsp. muscaria (apparently limited to part of Alaska, except for human introductions, in the Americas).
The eastern yellow muscarioid entity seems to be in the same situation except that it appears to have arisen multiple times within the American red fly agaric (A. muscaria subsp. flavivolvata Singer). The two red fly agarics will become separate species when I finish the next article with Dr. Geml. His DNA paper will appear in a journal shortly – Molceular Phylogeny and Evolution."
So yeah, we got some new names coming. A. muscaria A. muscaria var.(PNW yellow) A. formosa A. flavivolvata A. flavivolvata var. guessowii A. flavivolvata var. persicina A. flavivolvata var. alba I wonder why Tolloss doesn't have a page on formosa..hmm.
Edited by HerbBaker (10/30/08 07:27 AM)
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: HerbBaker]
#9159795 - 10/30/08 03:49 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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The only Amanita muscaria in the continental US will be the PNW yellow variant. All others will be A. flavivolvata or a variant of it.
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DiabloDios
Stranger
Registered: 10/06/08
Posts: 15
Loc: Eugene, OR
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: HerbBaker]
#9167259 - 11/01/08 08:05 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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That's crazy, warriorsoul! So my amanitas are muscaria muscaria that have found their way from Siberia thru Alaska to Oregon? A search here at the Shroomery shows them being found in the pnw and ID'ed (mistakenly?) as formosa since '03, even a few active threads where pnw muscaria are named formosa. They have evolved, that's why the cap isn't bright red? I wonder if the change in cap colour will merit their own subspecies? wait and see...
Mushroomexpert's formosa page reads: According to Amanita expert Rodham Tulloss (2003), the correct name for the variant described above is Amanita muscaria var. guessowii ...so maybe that's why Tulloss has no formosa page at his site.
I will say one thing about these guys. They are very active.
Too bad the season is almost over for them. The ones I happened across are at a public forest. I spoke with a ranger yesterday who said I was free to take all the mushrooms I want so I will harvest some today before the rain melts them all.
guessowii are a variant of flavivolvata? In photos I've ran across, guessowii seem to have a smoother stipe than the generally shaggier flavivolvata, an errant conclusion, I suppose, but I'm learning!
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N2loma
Foaming Pipe Snake
Registered: 05/17/08
Posts: 925
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: DiabloDios]
#9167442 - 11/01/08 09:31 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah, apparently the formosa variety, proper, is European and the guessowii variety is the American analog. There's also talk of a similar yellowish fly agaric that can be found alongside the guessowiis (Champagne Fly Agaric or something like that).
Thankfully the guessowiis are plentiful locally in the Fall, especially under white pine. I've been too chicken to eat some since a powerful experience with red agarics years ago, but I do smoke dried caps on occasion. Do the guessowiis compare in potency with the reds (in case you've had experience with both)?
-------------------- "So can you tell me what exactly does freedom mean/ If I'm not free to be as twisted as I wanna be" -Divide by Disturbed Good Guitars Don't Cry
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HerbBaker
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 2,506
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Re: Found a nice Amanita today.. [Re: N2loma]
#9167492 - 11/01/08 09:56 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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The Poison Champagne Amanita. Amanita crenulata grows next to guessowii but i haven't heard it called fly agaric although it does has the same compounds and has been used in the same way.
The thing i cant figure out is why Tulloss doesnt have a page for the European A. muscaria var. formosa. This means something.. I have heard very little about European formosa, it makes me wonder if it will become obsolete. The two European species will be split between Eurasian subalpine and general Eurasian populations, cap and wart color (a polymorphism) predates the speciation event. In other words, cap color is not a reliable indicator between the species, but it is an indicator of the variants within each species when taking geographic information into account. The ones that will have the hardest time id'ing these new species will be the Alaskan hunters where all three species overlap.
Not only are the Eastern and Western American yellow Amanitas not the same variant, they aren't even the same species.
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