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OfflineGROD
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Registered: 03/28/07 Happy 17th Shroomiversary!
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hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS!
    #9129484 - 10/24/08 11:25 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Firstly, I apologize for the obscenely sensationalistic title. Science fucking rules.

So Im kind of tripping over my teeth right now, and the weirdest shit in the universe keeps popping into my head, like quasi-out-of-body-type-connection-to-the-Universe type shit. Has anyone else had this? And in that same vein, what the fuck, how do you justify it as a rational human being? Having a purely scientific perspective, I just cant justify it in any sense.

Shroomery to the rescue?


Shameless obama plug commence!

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OfflineCoaster
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: GROD]
    #9129488 - 10/24/08 11:26 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

odd..


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InvisibleTalking Head
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: Coaster]
    #9129512 - 10/24/08 11:32 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

indeed...


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pt:    n  u  m  b  e  r  s  c  a  n  a  l  s  o  b  e  u
CT(a): BH AT CW CE KI LI LT KE AE BH AE KW LT AW CE KI AT
pt:    s  e  d  a  s  c  o  o  r  d  i  n  a  t  e  s
CT(a): LT KI KT AE LT KE AW AW LI KT BI BH AE LE KI LT
:docbrown:    :realawe:                :realpacman:

Outer Space Radio Network

Gcv Ujkv

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Offlinemaysrome
It is a disgusting sandwich.
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: Coaster]
    #9129517 - 10/24/08 11:34 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Coaster said:
odd..




I don't quite get the obama poster.


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Es muss sein?!

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OfflineInnoculus
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: maysrome]
    #9129521 - 10/24/08 11:36 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Of course it's not scientifically rational.  It's always summed up to "You're experiencing hallucinations and delusions of grandeur.

Try fucking going to the hospital on acid.  They won't believe a GODDAMN thing you say.  Even though I consider myself to be smarter and more articulate on LSD.  Nope.  Fuck that.  You're on drugs, you can't be trusted to provide truthful information.

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InvisibleTalking Head
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: maysrome]
    #9129524 - 10/24/08 11:37 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

obama is a commi (i think thats what it means)


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pt:    n  u  m  b  e  r  s  c  a  n  a  l  s  o  b  e  u
CT(a): BH AT CW CE KI LI LT KE AE BH AE KW LT AW CE KI AT
pt:    s  e  d  a  s  c  o  o  r  d  i  n  a  t  e  s
CT(a): LT KI KT AE LT KE AW AW LI KT BI BH AE LE KI LT
:docbrown:    :realawe:                :realpacman:

Outer Space Radio Network

Gcv Ujkv

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OfflineRedRainDrop
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: Talking Head]
    #9129538 - 10/24/08 11:41 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Obama is just another puppet ready to have a hand shoved up his ass.

What you were experiencing was the mass consciousness.... which science doesn't even cover... but it is a very real thing.


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Fact: Saving the environment can take centuries
A blow job can take up to 5 minutes.
"When was the last time you heard green peace talk about the immense pleasure you get when you put your penis in someone Else's mouth? " -jonlajoie

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Offlinehighdroponics
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: RedRainDrop]
    #9129577 - 10/24/08 11:50 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RedRainDrop said:
Obama is just another puppet ready to have a hand shoved up his ass.




This rings true for anyone the media deems as electable.


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Dr :ronpaul: says to stop trying to treat the side-effects of big government and focus on the core issues. End the Federal Reserve/audit the gold reserves at Fort Knox, abolish the IRS, end all wars and occupancies, stop the building of an empire that will inevitably fail, and cut all unconstitutional federal programs. Put the power back in the peoples' hands by ending this nanny-state.

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InvisibleTalking Head
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: highdroponics]
    #9129583 - 10/24/08 11:53 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

..."ANOTHER puppet"...


--------------------
pt:    n  u  m  b  e  r  s  c  a  n  a  l  s  o  b  e  u
CT(a): BH AT CW CE KI LI LT KE AE BH AE KW LT AW CE KI AT
pt:    s  e  d  a  s  c  o  o  r  d  i  n  a  t  e  s
CT(a): LT KI KT AE LT KE AW AW LI KT BI BH AE LE KI LT
:docbrown:    :realawe:                :realpacman:

Outer Space Radio Network

Gcv Ujkv

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: GROD]
    #9129601 - 10/24/08 11:57 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GROD said:
Has anyone else had this?




I'm not sure what you want to be explained to you.  You want to know why you can have out-of-body experiences which involve feeling connected to the universe?  Or you want to know why you're having them?

Quote:

And in that same vein, what the fuck, how do you justify it as a rational human being?




Human beings are not entirely rational.

Quote:

Having a purely scientific perspective, I just cant justify it in any sense.




Huh?  Science is entirely based on experience.  What does a "purely scientific perspective" mean to you and why do you think it's incompatible with having thoughts or experiences that relate to feeling out of body and connected to the universe.

First of all, I'm not sure exactly what you are seeking an explanation for and secondly I'm not sure why you think it would be incompatible with a scientific perspective.

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: Innoculus]
    #9129610 - 10/24/08 11:58 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Innoculus said:
Try fucking going to the hospital on acid.  They won't believe a GODDAMN thing you say.  Even though I consider myself to be smarter and more articulate on LSD.  Nope.  Fuck that.  You're on drugs, you can't be trusted to provide truthful information.




What are you talking about?  What does this have to do with the original post?

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OfflineInnoculus
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: Plasmid]
    #9129630 - 10/25/08 12:04 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Plasmid said:
Quote:

Innoculus said:
Try fucking going to the hospital on acid.  They won't believe a GODDAMN thing you say.  Even though I consider myself to be smarter and more articulate on LSD.  Nope.  Fuck that.  You're on drugs, you can't be trusted to provide truthful information.




What are you talking about?  What does this have to do with the original post?




Sort of backs up his thoughts on how experiences that can be had with psychedelics are often not taken seriously by the general public.  I'll admit it was a bit off topic.  It has SOME correlation, I think, though.

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OfflinePatisotagami
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: GROD]
    #9129739 - 10/25/08 12:28 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Science as you are talking about it and thinking about it is just a creation from the minds of humans.

No human mind, in my opinion, can begin to communicate the workings of the universe or our connection to it. 

We have different sciences (biology, psychology, chemistry, physics, mathematics...) that can explain different aspects of our universe as we experience it. But nothing in our language, especially in the English language, can convey the meaning and depth of the ultimate existence you seem to be referring to.


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EVERYTHING IS EVERYTHING

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: Patisotagami]
    #9129764 - 10/25/08 12:36 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Innoculus said:
Sort of backs up his thoughts on how experiences that can be had with psychedelics are often not taken seriously by the general public.  I'll admit it was a bit off topic.  It has SOME correlation, I think, though.




Well, maybe it's a problem with communicating on psychedelics, causing the problem with being taken seriously.  I'm not entirely sure what this thread is even about, so I wasn't sure if you were off topic or bang on.

===============================

Quote:

smmu said:
But nothing in our language, especially in the English language, can convey the meaning and depth of the ultimate existence you seem to be referring to.




Why do you rule out English as being especially unable to communicate "ultimate existence"?

The thing about science, as I see it, is that while it does aim to produce working models of observable reality, we would never be able to know if a theory of everything (TOE) was true or not.  Scientific theories are not verifiable.  We can only say that they have worked.  Thus, while I don't think that science can ever express any kind of absolute truth, I do think that it's possible that one day a correct "TOE" could be formulated.  We'd simply never be able to say that we had verified that TOE.

Edited by Plasmid (10/25/08 12:58 AM)

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OfflineInnoculus
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: Plasmid]
    #9129822 - 10/25/08 12:48 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Plasmid said:
Quote:

Innoculus said:
Sort of backs up his thoughts on how experiences that can be had with psychedelics are often not taken seriously by the general public.  I'll admit it was a bit off topic.  It has SOME correlation, I think, though.




Well, maybe it's a problem with communicating on psychedelics, instead of a problem with being taken seriously.  I'm not entirely sure what this thread is even about, so I wasn't sure if you were off topic or bang on.





I don't ever have problems communicating on LSD.  LSA makes me a little bit tongue tied and mushrooms make me a bit silly, but for the most part I speak quite clearly and make sure that what I say makes sense.  I could tell they didn't know what they were talking about because one of the people taking my vitals asked if I got some "bad shit"  The only way I could reply was "No... In fact, I got some very good shit.  Trust me."

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: Innoculus]
    #9129863 - 10/25/08 12:57 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I find it kinda easy to interact on acid as long as your not talking about yourself.  But i often get nervous and not interact unless i have too.  I normally think that the other person im talking to will think im crazy.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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OfflineInnoculus
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #9129877 - 10/25/08 01:00 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Nah.. I'm usually exceptionally cheerful and agreeable.  I don't really get angry ever and I try to be as nice as I can.  I tend to make a bit of a joke out of everything, even, like I said, when at the hospital.

"Hey uhm.. So earlier I made the mistake of accidentally ingesting what turned out to be WAY too much acid and I'm having some serious breathing problems.  Can you guys help me out?" (Nervous grin)

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OfflineGROD
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Registered: 03/28/07 Happy 17th Shroomiversary!
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: Plasmid]
    #9130086 - 10/25/08 01:40 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:



I'm not sure what you want to be explained to you.  You want to know why you can have out-of-body experiences which involve feeling connected to the universe?  Or you want to know why you're having them?






I want to know what the population of people who have had 'out of body experiences, Universal interconnectedness, etc.' and also hold a scientific worldview to try to explain to me and generally to just talk to me about, their experience with the phenomena and what their subjective experiences were.

Quote:


Human beings are not entirely rational. Huh?  Science is entirely based on experience.  What does a "purely scientific perspective" mean to you and why do you think it's incompatible with having thoughts or experiences that relate to feeling out of body and connected to the universe.






Science is based on objective conclusions deduced through subjective experiences, yes; and this extremely subjective state of mind (interconnectedness) is so subjective that I feel that attempting to objectify it is worthless, meaning I only have my subjective experience to work off of and therefore can come to no objective conclusion whatsoever. Others have apparently experienced similar phenomena (monks i imagine, people experiencing OBE's, etc) and I would just like, i suppose, to hear more accounts of this to see if they coincide at all with what I feel, in hopes of coming to an 'objective conclusion'.

Edited by GROD (10/25/08 01:43 AM)

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Offlineyoubreakyoubuy
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: GROD]
    #9130121 - 10/25/08 01:51 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Science is a method.

The thing about science is that many people perform the same experiments and they either get the same result or they don't.  If a bunch of people get the same result, then the experiment kinda sorta proves something.  Otherwise it was just an isolated anecdotal experience.

If it's not verifiable, it's not science.

How is an "extremely subjective state of mind" "interconnectedness"?

Why is it that what you feel suddenly has so much weight compared to hundreds of years of the application of the scientific method?

How is it that hearing more subjective accounts is going to give you a more objective conclusion?


--------------------
Let that which doesn't matter truly not matter.

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: youbreakyoubuy]
    #9130255 - 10/25/08 02:27 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GROD said:
I want to know what the population of people who have had 'out of body experiences, Universal interconnectedness, etc.' and also hold a scientific worldview to try to explain to me and generally to just talk to me about, their experience with the phenomena and what their subjective experiences were.




I'm a scientist and I've had such experiences.  I consider my world view to be scientific.  What do you want me to try and explain?  What I think causes such experiences?  What do you want to know about my own experiences?  I've had plenty of experiences on psychedelics where I've felt that I've been existing at all points in time simultaneously, or that I've merged with objects.  I look back on them as being drug-induced illusions (i.e. changes in perception that are the result of taking a drug).  I explain these experiences in the same way that I explain seeing geometric patterns on walls which I don't see while sober: the drug altered my perception.  It was a drug induced delusion.

Quote:

Science is based on objective conclusions deduced through subjective experiences




No.  Formulation of scientific hypotheses, from subjective experiences, is a creative act, not an act of logical deduction.  While hypotheses are objectively testable, they are not objectively verifiable.  There is, of course, an aspect of logical deduction in hypothesis formation and especially in criticizing and improving hypotheses.  However, in going from a singular instance to formulating a general rule, logical deduction does not apply.  Hypothesis formation is largely a creative act. 

Quote:

and this extremely subjective state of mind (interconnectedness) is so subjective that I feel that attempting to objectify it is worthless, meaning I only have my subjective experience to work off of and therefore can come to no objective conclusion whatsoever.




Why?  I think these experiences can be explained by science (though, just not entirely at this point).  I see them as being the result of altered functioning of the brain due to having ingested a drug. 
=========================================


Quote:

youbreakyoubuy said:
If it's not verifiable, it's not science.




No.  Scientific hypotheses and theories are NOT verifiable.  There is a distinct asymmetry to the kind of knowledge that science can produce: scientific hypotheses and theories can only ever be demonstrated to be false.  They can NEVER be verified.  In order to verify a natural law, it would have to be observed to hold true at all points in the universe through all time.  This is not possible, so what scientists do is formulate hypotheses (which is a creative act) and then devise experiments which genuinely attempt to prove their ideas false.  If a hypothesis can't be shown wrong, after genuine tests, then we are justified in using it because it is, after all, a working model.

Though scientists do often use words like "proof", this is really just used in a colloquial sense, because it is more convenient and more in tune with how people think.  It's similar to why scientists use teleological explanations when discussing evolutionary adaptations, even though these kinds of explanations are inconsistent with evolution.  Many of the profs I had as an undergrad were fond of pointing out that good scientists should always set up experiments that are designed at demonstrating their hypotheses false.  If you can't show that your hypothesis is false, then you continue to use it as a working model and you proclaim it as being true.

If you look at the history of science, the most important advances always came about when an important theory was shown to be wrong (such as classical mechanics).

Quote:

Why is it that what you feel suddenly has so much weight compared to hundreds of years of the application of the scientific method?




I think it boils down to an inherent aspect of observation which can't be reconciled.  Science is a social activity and relies on the assumption that we all share a world which we can observe.  What if this assumption is wrong?  What if you are the only true observer and all of the other people around you really don't share your world?  The problem is, of course, that discussing this problem with other people won't get you anywhere, because you either assume that people are sharing the same universe as you or you don't.  At least, that's what I'm thinking is the essential problem that the OP is trying to reconcile.

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Offlineoptyks
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: RedRainDrop]
    #9130299 - 10/25/08 02:39 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RedRainDrop said:
Obama is just another puppet ready to have a hand shoved up his ass.

What you were experiencing was the mass consciousness.... which physical science doesn't even cover... but it is a very real thing.




I'm going to have to agree with this...

Im a scientific person too, but I think some things just cant be proven or found through our whole-worldy material science theories and formulas.

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: hey you goofy scientists, explain THIS! [Re: optyks]
    #9130309 - 10/25/08 02:41 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Anyone that is a candidate in the mainstream media is not only a puppet to have a hand shoved up their ass.  But there also extremely corrupt and you can't trust the greedy power hungry bastards.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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