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Jean-Luc Picard
I only wish i was this good!
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,230
Loc: New Mexico, USA
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin [Re: dead]
#9120180 - 10/23/08 08:34 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psilocybin (O-phosphoryl-4-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine) is a prodrug that is converted into the pharmacologically active compound psilocin in the body by dephosphorylation.[2] This chemical reaction takes place under strongly acidic conditions or enzymatically by phosphatases in the body. Psilocybin is a zwitterionic alkaloid that is soluble in water, moderately soluble in methanol and ethanol, and insoluble in most organic solvents.
Quote:
A prodrug is a pharmacological substance (drug) that is administered in an inactive (or significantly less active) form. Once administered, the prodrug is metabolised in vivo into an active metabolite.
-------------------- The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT
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nastea
Captain Obvious
Registered: 09/04/08
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin [Re: POWAtrippin]
#9120181 - 10/23/08 08:34 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think this is in the wrong forum!
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dead
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin [Re: nastea]
#9120231 - 10/23/08 08:50 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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I wouldn't call a wiki quote evidence. They put up information they think is correct.
The only way to prove psilocybin to be a prodrug that comes to my mind would be to somehow inhibit it's breaking down to psilocin and see if it has any effect on it's own.
Or maybe if you could radiotag the phosphoryl group and then see if the molecule binds to any receptors while the phosphoryl is still intact.
Unless I see evidence of a research done in this fashion I say, we don't know.
If psilocybin was merely a prodrug, then the effects of psilocybin and the acetate ester of psilocin should be identical. There are some differences in their activity.
-------------------- "The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows." Links: Nibin's Guide for Noobs some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)
Edited by dead (10/23/08 08:52 AM)
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Jean-Luc Picard
I only wish i was this good!
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,230
Loc: New Mexico, USA
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin [Re: dead]
#9120271 - 10/23/08 09:05 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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ah...well i suppose you could have some of the psilocybin bind to the right receptors and produce different effects in different ratios to psilocin...like with THC and CBD in cannabis...and again this is just what i find...i dont claim to be an expert on any of this.
just doin what i can
-------------------- The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT
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Wronguy
Registered: 03/05/05
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: djblackout]
#9120317 - 10/23/08 09:22 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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This thread was moved from Mushroom Cultivation.
Reason: Since this discussion is in regards to the alkaloids contained within the psilocybe specie mushrooms, I am moving this to our Psychedelic Experience forum for further discussion.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: djblackout]
#9120345 - 10/23/08 09:29 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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This thread was moved from The Psychedelic Experience.
Reason:
Quote:
GreedAndVanity said: On the other hand I have been drinking arrogant bastard ale so I could be completely confused.
very confused with some of it
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shponglecybin
Stranger
Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 295
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9121506 - 10/23/08 02:17 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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something Ive been trying to get an answer to is,does psilocybin convert to psilocin at the same weight,like if you where to eat a gram of shrooms containing 8mg of psilocybin and 2mg of psilocin then this will convert to 10mg of psilocin.
sorry for asking a question thats probably been asked plenty times before but i cant find an answer to it,i was thinking that maybe some of the actives could get lost during the conversion.
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Jean-Luc Picard
I only wish i was this good!
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,230
Loc: New Mexico, USA
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: shponglecybin]
#9121767 - 10/23/08 03:08 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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no...you need to subtract the weight of the functional group that is removed...psilocybin is 284.25 grams per mole and psilocin is 204.26 grams per mole. so then 204.26/284.25 = .719 so in ur example you would take [(8mg X .719) + 2mg] = 7.75mg psilocin after conversion...
this is assuming 100% conversion though and then psilocin tends to break down in the presence of Oxygen so you probly wouldnt get 100% of the potential psilocin presented in the calculation
hope this helps
-------------------- The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT
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shponglecybin
Stranger
Registered: 09/04/08
Posts: 295
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another thing that i don't get is why would different types of psilocybe mushrooms seem to have different effects when all actives are converted to psilocin anyway.
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dead
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: shponglecybin]
#9122344 - 10/23/08 04:56 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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That's just because there's different shroom ghosts invading your brain with each species.
-------------------- "The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows." Links: Nibin's Guide for Noobs some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)
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Jean-Luc Picard
I only wish i was this good!
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,230
Loc: New Mexico, USA
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: shponglecybin]
#9122436 - 10/23/08 05:17 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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well you have to take into account the other tryptamines:
Baeocystin 4-phosphoryloxy-N-methyl-tryptamine a demethylated derivative of psilocybin, first isolated from the species Psilocybe baeocystis.
Norbaeocystin 4-phosphoryloxy-tryptamine along with baeocystin, is a minor psychoactive found in magic mushrooms.
maybe the combination of different amounts of these compounds with psilocin produce subtle effects.
It could also be a placebo effect. Like if you know its a different strain then during the trip that can manifest itself into a different feeling, or if someone tells you that its a crazy body high with this strain, then if you are the compliant type, it manifests to a crazy body high...as where if you are the defiant or argumentative type it could manifest itself as a mellow and very visual trip.
i would go with the former explanation bc the latter is completely one of my thoughts on the subject and to my knowledge has not been proven...
hope this helps
-------------------- The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT
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dead
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What about the multitude of chemical compounds present in any plant or fungus, that are dismissed as "inactive" but can very well have subtle synergistic effects when combined with the primary active chemicals. This would to me seem a most logical explanation for the differences in activity of different mushroom species.
-------------------- "The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows." Links: Nibin's Guide for Noobs some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)
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Jean-Luc Picard
I only wish i was this good!
Registered: 12/30/07
Posts: 4,230
Loc: New Mexico, USA
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: dead]
#9122923 - 10/23/08 06:56 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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that is also a possibility
-------------------- The universe is under no obligation to make sense to you - NDT
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adnix
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: dead]
#9128505 - 10/24/08 06:44 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
dead said: What about the multitude of chemical compounds present in any plant or fungus, that are dismissed as "inactive" but can very well have subtle synergistic effects when combined with the primary active chemicals. This would to me seem a most logical explanation for the differences in activity of different mushroom species.
Recently read LSD - My Problem Child by Albert Hofmann. In it he relates his experience in Mexico where he gave pills containing synthetic psilocybin to the shaman he met there, who confirmed they contained "spirit of the mushrooms" - i.e. she couldn't tell the difference. It's likely the only active ingredient.
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dead
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: adnix]
#9128514 - 10/24/08 06:46 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Oh please.
-------------------- "The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows." Links: Nibin's Guide for Noobs some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)
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Plasmid
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: dead]
#9129646 - 10/25/08 12:06 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't see what's so incredible about what adnix said. Why isn't that possible? Why dismiss it?
As for the other simple tryptamines (baeocystin, norbaeocystin, etc.): as far as I can see, there is no evidence to suggest that they're active. This doesn't mean that they're inactive, just that there's no reason to believe that they are active.
I have never seen any studies demonstrating that people can distinguish between psilocin and psilocybin blind or that people can distinguish between different strains of shrooms blind (though some people insist that they can - they will admit that they've never tried to test this assumption).
Psilocybin is believed to rapidly break down into psilocin, hence psilocin is the only known active substance.
As far as I can see, the extant evidence is so far only consistent with psilocin being the active ingredient.
I have searched for evidence of baeocystin, etc. being active, but can't find any. If anyone knows of studies on the pharmacology of these other substances in humans, please share.
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dead
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: adnix]
#9130420 - 10/25/08 03:09 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
adnix said:Recently read LSD - My Problem Child by Albert Hofmann. In it he relates his experience in Mexico where he gave pills containing synthetic psilocybin to the shaman he met there, who confirmed they contained "spirit of the mushrooms" - i.e. she couldn't tell the difference. It's likely the only active ingredient.
Now what kind of logic is that? You get this from one "shaman" saying some pills have "spirits of mushrooms", that psilocybin is the only active ingredient of mushrooms?
Psilocin and Baeocystin are both active chemicals, although effects of baeocystin are very mild and it has more of a synergistic value with psilocin and psilocybin.
Other ingredients of mushrooms: norbaeocystin, the desphosphorylation metabolites of baeocystin & norbaeocystin 4HO-NMT and 4HO-T, and a weird quarternary amine tryptamine 4-PO-TMT. The possible activity of all of these by themselves has not been studied sufficiently.
-------------------- "The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows." Links: Nibin's Guide for Noobs some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)
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udok
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin [Re: dead]
#9131728 - 10/25/08 12:55 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
dead said: I'd very much like to see the evidence for the claim that psilocybin is inactive before conversion to psilocin. AFAIK The exposed hydroxy group is in no way required for receptor binding.
It may be active, but it does not pass the blood-brain barrier due to its chemical polarity. Only "binding to 5Ht2x receptors" does not imply a hallucinogenic action.
-------------------- And on the 7. day the creator designed the psychedelic drugs. Holy shit. Thats intelligent design far beyond my scope. Namaste
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dead
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin [Re: udok]
#9132061 - 10/25/08 02:09 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Can I see some documentation of this? Any references?
-------------------- "The third eye. You spend years doing everything you can to open it and then the damn thing opens and your friends laugh at you when you tell them you can see their souls behind their eyes burning like rainbows." Links: Nibin's Guide for Noobs some easy teks on bulk & grain prep. (my journal)
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Plasmid
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Re: psilocin and psilocybin (moved) [Re: dead]
#9132534 - 10/25/08 03:56 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
dead said: Psilocin and Baeocystin are both active chemicals, although effects of baeocystin are very mild and it has more of a synergistic value with psilocin and psilocybin.
Evidence? Where is the evidence for this? I can't find it anywhere? Did you just ignore my post above? Any documentation of this?
Quote:
The possible activity of all of these by themselves has not been studied sufficiently.
As far as I'm aware, the hallucinogenic activity (or any CNS activity) of baeocystin has not been studied sufficiently. Would you like to back up your claim? Or will you just ignore my post again?
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