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InvisibleFerris
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: durian_2008]
    #9136466 - 10/26/08 12:18 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I think you just have issues with authority figures.


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Edited by Ferris (10/26/08 12:24 PM)

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OfflineGnosticWarrior
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: Ferris]
    #9136863 - 10/26/08 02:05 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ferris said:
And what you are describing is anarchy, or possibly feudalism, where we will most surely be the serfs.  "Freedom" is a state where people have even chances at success.  If I were to play a poker game with you where you had a thousand chips and I had 45 thousand chips, how do you think it would end?

Under the current system, I would have 45,650 at the end of the game, and you'd have to be my slave to earn back the 350.  Under your system, I'd have all 46,000 and you'd still be my slave.  Under my system, we'd both have a fairer chance in the game, and you might actually be able to get above 1000.  I'd still be able to earn money, but I'd actually have to earn it.




:thumbup: I like your poker analogy!

However, here is a real life example of how Chris Ferguson turned $0 into $10,000.
http://www.fulltiltpoker.com/chris-ferguson-challenge

To me this illustrates, that it is not the amount of starting money but, the knowledge and proper execution to utilize that money that really dictates the outcome.

Just for the record, I think Serfdom or Slavery is bad for any society and against MY self interest, if living in a peaceful and loving society is my goal.

Freedom to me is the ability of choice.  In no other country do people regardless of race, religion, or economics, have more choices available to them, then in the U.S.  The people who got into financial trouble want to blame this ability to choose?  Would regulating choices bring more "Freedom"?

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery;
None but ourselves can free our minds.
-Bob Marley

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: GnosticWarrior]
    #9136978 - 10/26/08 02:35 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
They could simply print more money to cover their own expenses, without exposing the people to punishment.



Quote:

zorbman said:
Wouldn't that result in inflation which amounts to a punishment for people saving?





Yep. You read me referring to inflation as a backdoor tax, and I don't even advocate fiat currencies.

I simply believe that taxation of a fiat currency serves no logical purpose, except to foster ongoing accountability to the military industrial complex.

Incidentally, I'm told of a time in my country's distant past, in which all money had tangible value. The govt supposedly ran it's own businesses, in order to create employment and sustain it's own operating expenses.

Not that I believe any elite body should be allowed to monopolize resources out of the hands of the people, but continuity of a libertarian govt doesn't require any financial input on my part.

Quote:

Ferris said:
I think you just have issues with authority figures.




If that was directed at me, you are correct. Yes, I do.

I believe that the natural basis of society is family, not the government.

And, I believe the role of the family is to create independent adults, not dependent children.

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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: durian_2008]
    #9137655 - 10/26/08 04:45 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

So what do you think would happen if there were no taxes and the government just printed enough money to cover it's expenses? Wouldn't that mean all money would somehow be related to government programs? That doesn't sound too attractive to me...

Got any articles I could read on this subject?

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InvisibleFerris
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl]
    #9137678 - 10/26/08 04:48 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

That's certainly possible, if you like ~20% annual inflation.  Also, it's probably highly regressive, like most people say the inflation "tax" is.  It'd also hurt investment a LOT.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: Ferris]
    #9137747 - 10/26/08 04:58 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ferris said:
And what you are describing is anarchy, or possibly feudalism, where we will most surely be the serfs.  "Freedom" is a state where people have even chances at success.  If I were to play a poker game with you where you had a thousand chips and I had 45 thousand chips, how do you think it would end?

Under the current system, I would have 45,650 at the end of the game, and you'd have to be my slave to earn back the 350.  Under your system, I'd have all 46,000 and you'd still be my slave.  Under my system, we'd both have a fairer chance in the game, and you might actually be able to get above 1000.  I'd still be able to earn money, but I'd actually have to earn it.




This only holds if you consider the economy a zero sum game in which someone's gain in money came directly from someone else's loss. This is shaky logic at best.

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InvisibleFerris
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: Redstorm]
    #9137782 - 10/26/08 05:05 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Eh, maybe, but if you look at my recent post on hidden taxes, you'd quickly see that you don't want to hear my long and drawn out argument.

It's better than such arguments I'm hearing like "the government takes our money, therefore it is socialist, therefore it is evil."  I'd like to see someone demonstrate that the sum total of government is a bad influence, before I describe in more detail why market forces left unchecked eat wealth and end up subtracting freedom.  An example of a bad argument is "the USSR collapsed, therefore communism sucks."


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: Ferris]
    #9137908 - 10/26/08 05:33 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I realize that's not true and there's no way I would argue that. While I am very capitalist, I realize that markets do fail and that the government needs to step in at times. I think the real difference between someone who believes what you believe and what I believe is what the role of gov't is in regards to the economy and when (and how) it should step in.

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: Redstorm]
    #9138427 - 10/26/08 07:08 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Got any articles I could read on this subject?



As for paying taxes before the money ever gets circulated, I have never heard anyone else say that.

The point is that you don't absolutely have to threaten people with jail for not paying up.

Quote:

That's certainly possible, if you like ~20% annual inflation.



I never suggested that the government should necessarily grow.

Quote:

Eh, maybe, but if you look at my recent post on hidden taxes, you'd quickly see that you don't want to hear my long and drawn out argument.

It's better than such arguments I'm hearing like "the government takes our money, therefore it is socialist, therefore it is evil."



That is what I believe, to the extent that my participation is forced. Honorable charity can only be voluntary.

We went from no taxation without representation to a regulatory system convoluted beyond comprehension.

Quote:

market forces left unchecked eat wealth and end up subtracting freedom.



What market forces affect the barter of the work of my own, two hands?

In using the term, "unchecked market forces," I suppose you're discussing a monopoly on credit. Would your solution to this be a centralized bureaucracy, or would I have to hunt and gather according to the dictates of the mob?

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InvisibleFerris
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: durian_2008]
    #9138496 - 10/26/08 07:16 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

durian_2008 said:
Quote:

That's certainly possible, if you like ~20% annual inflation.



I never suggested that the government should necessarily grow.




You missed the point.  Inflation is the inevitable result of printing money, especially on that scale.  My estimate is actually fairly close to the inflation for what you proposed (I think), unless I missed something.


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: Ferris]
    #9142490 - 10/27/08 03:06 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Inflation cannot grow 20% annually, if expenses cannot grow 20% annually.

If you're saying that inflation remains at 20% annually, that is still cheaper than the annual taxes, which would eventually be paid, out of a livable wage.

Regardlessly, I've repeatedly said that I do not endorse fiat, printed currencies, nor do I endorse bills of credit.

If I understand correctly, you keep on indicating that some for of socialism ought to act as a market control.

Whenever there is a centralized, collective steward over resources, there is a monopolization of credit.

Any monopoly is an unchecked market force.

Again, the work of my own two hands and feet is insufficient to dispossess those around me.

Yet, most solutions imply that some hierarchy is needed to properly dole out privileged access to resources.

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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: durian_2008]
    #9143155 - 10/27/08 05:01 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I'd like to thank you guys for keeping this debate cordial. In many places, this would have burned in flames.


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InvisibleFerris
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: durian_2008]
    #9143413 - 10/27/08 05:37 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Mostly, I endorse policies that reduce the cost of living over "socialist" type policies.  Anything that will lower the cost of housing (public housing would be the socialist approach; ironically, de-unionization would be another approach at the expense of the middle class).  Anything that will lower the cost of food (certain subsidies, certain free trade).  Public transportation that works, renewable energy subsidies (not corn-based ethanol).

I just don't like any of those ideas being dismissed as socialist right off the bat.  Like feeding and housing people isn't the responsibility of the employer.  If you don't like "redistributing" wealth, then it could always be mandated as a section of a paycheck.  Then it's not "redistribution," but simply "standard of living."


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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: Ferris]
    #9147775 - 10/28/08 11:48 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mostly, I endorse policies that reduce the cost of living over "socialist" type policies.



I appreciate this sentiment very much, but I believe that any price controls are socialistic, in that they artificially affect demand.

Quote:

Anything that will lower the cost of housing (public housing would be the socialist approach; ironically, de-unionization would be another approach at the expense of the middle class).  Anything that will lower the cost of food (certain subsidies, certain free trade).  Public transportation that works



I believe that, if mediums of exchange and instruments of credit were removed from the picture, if people were legally allowed to make a living from the work of their own, two hands and feet, needs would be reduced, and goods would be bartered based on the demands of the individual.

I have never encountered any example of someone cornering the market on a natural resource without having first received preferential credit. By in large, this is the purpose of organizing.

Quote:

renewable energy subsidies (not corn-based ethanol).



Everyone's figures change, based on their ideology. RFD TV has claimed that fuel took up less than 1% of corn, the production of which is limited in this country, BTW.

I believe most people live on land which is organically arable to some extent, and that overland transportation is not a strict survival need.

I believe that, since Roman times, roads have been intended to improve the mobility of government.

Generally speaking, where native foods are plentiful, the quality of life cannot be improved upon.

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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: zorbman]
    #9304287 - 11/24/08 01:51 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Quote:

If the average person understood our monetary system they would be outraged. The average person isn't outraged because they are probably incapable of understanding how the system works.




Yes, that is a quote from John Maynard Keynes. Here is another:

"By this means government may secretly and unobserved, confiscate the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft."

I am just waking up to it myself and the more I look into it the more disturbed I become.

I feel like I have woken up inside the Matrix.

This system is very aptly described as a parasite. The problem is the parasite has overgrown the host.

I have to agree though that there is no system that cannot be corrupted over time by human beings. But some systems are better than others. I am in favor of backing our currency using a bi-metallic standard (gold/silver). I am under no illusions that this would be a panacea but I feel it would at least help prevent the wild swings in the economy which we see every few generations.




i feel this way also. i see daily life in a different way. i no longer look at people the same way and... i don't waste time arguing about partisan bullshit either!

money is the root of all evil.

something good to watch that in away explains how we as a society think like cattle. is called " the century of the self" on google video.

it is by bbc. but shows how our society was subconsciously engineered to think impulsively and be self fulfilling. ie only care about ourselves as individuals.

very worth watching!


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Edited by eatyualive (11/24/08 01:54 PM)

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Invisibledurian_2008
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: eatyualive]
    #9306602 - 11/24/08 07:52 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

we as a society think like cattle



Quote:

our society was subconsciously engineered to think impulsively and be self fulfilling. ie only care about ourselves as individuals.



With all due respect, eatyualive, cattle are a collective.

Only pure, rankless, independent libertarians could be self-fulfilling.

I don't disagree with individualism.

I believe that involuntary dependence on others tends to be morally compromising.

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Offlinemushroomhunter10
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: durian_2008]
    #9307641 - 11/24/08 09:50 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I think you guys might like one of these:

The Creature From Jekyll Island


FIAT Empire


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The U.S. Constitution!

Best WBS Tek
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Invisibleeatyualive
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: mushroomhunter10]
    #9321869 - 11/27/08 12:06 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

printing money out of thin air is stupid. think about this, what if everyone needs to pull all their money out of the banks at the same time. they proably don't even have 1/3 of that money in the banks if that. they can't truly even cover those monies. meanwhile lending out tenfold.

its the biggest con ever made in history and just because you buy into it, doesn't mean you understand it. if you understand it, you know how much of a lie it truly is.

thanks mushroomhunter10. those are some good vids


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Offlinewasjosh
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: eatyualive]
    #10874105 - 08/17/09 01:40 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

How do you know the current system isn't a good compromise between functionality and parasitism?




How could anyone answer that question correctly? What's the right answer?

There isn't one, you have your thoughts on it, others have theirs.

Our 'current system' allows for all types of monetary crimes to exist, (thief, counterfeiting) which will influence minds on just how bad a non-monetary criminal crime is (murder, robberies, rape, along with other fun stuff) often allowing justification for it to occur.

So no, in my opinion we don't have a good compromise, as one shouldn't exist.

Quote:

What I am arguing is that such a revolution would start with good intentions, but end with creating yet another shitty monetary system for the masses, created to benefit the creators. How do we know that system won't be worse than the one we have now?




You don't and you can't. My common sense tells me to still do what I believe is the right thing, even if it's the hard thing that might end up shitty.

Quote:

I think if shit does hit the fan, the good will outnumber the crooked and have a 'never again' attitude as per the French revolution




For some reason, the constant phrasing and rephrasing of "Remember the past", "History teaches this or that", are not repeated because people listen to them.

We as people make the same mistakes, over and over. Down to the most basic of human decisions. We fail, again and again. People die for no reason except lack of entitlement in our systems everyday, is this a flaw? Breakage? Collateral damage? I think it's just fucked up.

Quote:

Well meaning political movements have a tendency to attract evil, self serving people to positions of power.




Best quote of the day, I'd like to see that on my wall. :x

Quote:

Imagine the person or people charged with creating a fair monetary system... the potential for abuse there would be irresistible.




In my book, 'a fair monetary system' is considered a misnomer.

Quote:

Again, how do you know the next system won't be worse than the current one?




If it isn't broke don't fix it.

If it is broke, and you might not be able to fix it right, what do you do?

Quote:

Don't worry.  Some lazy people encourage a revolution to get more welfare.  It won't happen.




I love this attitude, I feel (probably incorrectly) that I can judge your whole character from those short sentences.

So you work hard, huh?

You put in your dues and got what was yours, huh?

I don't see that. Plenty of people work hard, and die hard, having never received anything except for abuse and neglect.

What about children in South Asia and sub-Saharan Africa? Kids who might dig through garbage dumps for 15 hours a day for pennies? What do they deserve? I'm sure you don't agree that they should be dieing by the tens of thousands every day, but then again, maybe you do.

Quote:

I'm going to throw some ideas out there.  I know that they have serious inherent flaws that would have to be overcome, but let's take them with a grain of salt, shall we?  Feel free to tear em apart politely, simply comment, or add your own ideas.

Solutions to shortening the gap:

Raise minimum wage (helps if it's worldwide, possibly proportional to GDP per capita in each country)

Salary/earnings caps, savings/estate caps.  Say earnings limited to 2-3 million a year.  Total wealth cap, 1 or 2 hundred million.  Issues: enforcement; total wealth may lead the richer families to simply move their holdings, although I suppose we could freeze some of their assets.  The salary cap sounds a lot more realistic.

Rather than a cap, a direct redistributive tax, which gives rebateable tax credits to the poor/middle class.

There's more where that came from, I have to think.




There isn't just a flaw here and there in our economic practices, it's the system itself that is the flaw.

I don't know, but I've never patched a flat tire more than once. If it's blown, it's blown to shit.

Quote:

I believe taxes are the way to create incentives on what to do and not do.  Do what you want, but be willing to pay the taxes.




I like to go with the herd on this one. I believe in freedom, restricting me based on my economic chooses doesn't ring that same bell.

Quote:

I think something like not having any corporate taxes. Why, the corporations are the ones creating jobs that will increase personal income.  And just tax the personal incomes.  And then also not taxing any personal income below 250k, 500k or even a mill.  If you are fortunate to be able to make more than that you get taxed a certain rate.




Hopefully I'm never blessed with the power to approve executions over large bodies of people, what a sick mindset you share with so many.

Corporate lobbying is not new, and it's the cause for the creation of our third fiat system.

For me, I see it starting with like-minded lawyers thinking corporations needed more purchasing power, thereby justifying the hijacking of the 14th amendment. Far out statement? Whatever, it happened. There's a nice quote floating around, within so many years after the 14th was passed, some 200 cases involving it were brought to the supreme court, something like 180 were by corporations, the others by blacks. Who has benefited more?

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Offlinewasjosh
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: wasjosh]
    #10874106 - 08/17/09 01:40 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I believe that the work of his hands and feet should be enough for a man to make a socially-acceptable living. I believe that much harder work should enable me to earn much extra, but this would require me to have rights to public resources, which have been bought-up by big business and their creditors.




I believe, along with a huge proportion of the scientific community, that we're all fucking star dust. Hypothetically, you being a noble prize winner have no more right to fresh water then an axe murder who has brought nothing but pain to the world.

Without fiat, (your position?) the term work is irrelative, and meaningless. I see it as a tumor, the just creates more sickness. Technology and delegation could save the world from work, but then who would spend all our money?

Quote:

Are you freakin' kidding me? This is America! Sounds like Karl Marx has been reincarnated in you. We need less government control and more capitalism.




I've gotten a couple good laughs out this thread, but this is one of the better ones.

Hey buddy, I guess you haven't noticed, but 'GOVERNMENT CONTROL' = 'CAPITALISM', and vise virsa. Meaning you can't have more or less of one, without the other.

Quote:

And what you are describing is anarchy, or possibly feudalism, where we will most surely be the serfs.  "Freedom" is a state where people have even chances at success.  If I were to play a poker game with you where you had a thousand chips and I had 45 thousand chips, how do you think it would end?

Under the current system, I would have 45,650 at the end of the game, and you'd have to be my slave to earn back the 350.  Under your system, I'd have all 46,000 and you'd still be my slave.  Under my system, we'd both have a fairer chance in the game, and you might actually be able to get above 1000.  I'd still be able to earn money, but I'd actually have to earn it.




Anyone charged with the huge responsibility of creating an economy would hopefully never be able to compare what they come up with to a poker game, or shit, any game.

Quote:

Wouldn't that result in inflation which amounts to a punishment for people saving?




Everything results in inflation when dealing with a monetary system that is always creating more debt them credit, right at the get-go.

It's built in, it's the life blood of the system. The best guarantee on transferring wealth.

Quote:

I think you just have issues with authority figures.




If you don't have issues with authority figures, you were either brought up naive, or with lots of authority over you, which now you like to hold over others. (My opinion.)

Do people think cops are cops because they want to help people? Why do they all carry guns and big shiny sticks? To protect, yeah okay.

What do they carry daily and cherish on a similar basis that is designed, 'to serve'?

Quote:

To me this illustrates, that it is not the amount of starting money but, the knowledge and proper execution to utilize that money that really dictates the outcome.




In personal experience, there are few things I've learned to be more true than the fact that it takes money to make money.

Quote:

Just for the record, I think Serfdom or Slavery is bad for any society and against MY self interest, if living in a peaceful and loving society is my goal.




Anyone's self-interest is not the goal of a society. I don't know if you're saying the a peaceful and loving society does exist, and you're in it (the US), but if you are I'd like you to know I think you're dead wrong.

We kill for money, we take for money, do we really do the same things out of love? Or is that some kind of cover?

Quote:

Freedom to me is the ability of choice.  In no other country do people regardless of race, religion, or economics, have more choices available to them, then in the U.S.  The people who got into financial trouble want to blame this ability to choose?  Would regulating choices bring more "Freedom"?




What choices do you process? The choice of where to work? What subdivision to live in? What team you child plays on?

I'd prefer my freedom to translate in to much more important matters and decisions.

You're in/from Hawaii, sorry if I don't automatically assume you've seen and/or studied the whole rest of the world and their economic/government systems to be able to compare them with such a quote. In fact, I assume the opposite.

Quote:

I believe that the natural basis of society is family, not the government.




I believe a family in our traditional American sense is nothing more than a marketing tool to be harnessed by powers greater than me.

Your father is no closer related to you them I am. Biologically, we're very fucking close, for you to choose him over me feels like elitism. Why does deserve something over me? Services rendered? In the big picture, it's all negligible.

Quote:

And, I believe the role of the family is to create independent adults, not dependent children.




I agree, if family = mankind.

Quote:

This only holds if you consider the economy a zero sum game in which someone's gain in money came directly from someone else's loss. This is shaky logic at best.




Since all money comes into circulation from loans, it's pretty logic at worst.

Quote:

I'd like to thank you guys for keeping this debate cordial. In many places, this would have burned in flames.




Waste of a post? You must carry some creed around here huh? I for one, not representing the majority of my fellow writes who have responded to this thread, don't want your input on just how nice we're playing.

If it isn't broken, leave it the fuck alone.

Quote:

printing money out of thin air is stupid. think about this, what if everyone needs to pull all their money out of the banks at the same time. they proably don't even have 1/3 of that money in the banks if that. they can't truly even cover those monies. meanwhile lending out tenfold.




I believe something to the tune of 3% of our money is represented by actual printed currency. They're not only printing money out of thin air, but also creating debt on top of that money. Watch an afternoon special on the FED, it's mildly entertaining.

We're born to die, why do we wish to delay it?

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