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OfflineLion
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Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 6 days, 12 hours
Freedom
    #9105518 - 10/20/08 06:10 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

We know about two kinds of freedom: freedom to and freedom from.  Both kinds of freedom must be limited for a society to function, because freedom from implies limits to others' freedoms to.

Spiritual traditions teach of freedom from desire, freedom from death, freedom from life, freedom from ignorance.

What is freedom, really?  Are you free?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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OfflineEcho7
Glad to be here.
Male


Registered: 01/07/08
Posts: 444
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
Re: Freedom [Re: Lion]
    #9105530 - 10/20/08 06:12 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

No.  Not in America (fuck no), and certainly not trapped in this abomination we call the human body.


--------------------
One step at a time.

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InvisibleSleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
Re: Freedom [Re: Echo7]
    #9105656 - 10/20/08 06:37 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

EchoEclipse71 said:
No.  Not in America (fuck no), and certainly not trapped in this abomination we call the human body.




In having a body, do we have more or less freedom than being pure nothingness? I'd say we certainly have more freedom being alive in a body in the physical world than we would being nonexistent.

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OfflineLion
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Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
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Re: Freedom [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #9105707 - 10/20/08 06:45 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

That's an interesting point!

Being embodied, we have the freedom to...To be!  To live, to explore, to share, to listen to music, to have sex, to take psychedelic voyages, to meditate, to play football, to knit, to cook, dance, sleep, fart.

Being nonexistent, there would be freedom from pain, suffering, loss, and so forth, but would it be freedom?  There would not be anything there to be free.

Freedom must be a conscious experience, in my opinion. 

Can freedom be attained through creating specific causes and conditions?  Is freedom the ability to accept all that arises in one's experience?  Is death freedom?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Invisiblederanger
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Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
Re: Freedom [Re: Lion]
    #9105837 - 10/20/08 07:09 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

working for myself has given me an overall greater sense of freedom.

there are less pressures and stresses and this is what really does it for me.

still there is always more freedom to experience.

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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Posts: 7,825
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Re: Freedom [Re: Lion]
    #9106264 - 10/20/08 08:22 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
We know about two kinds of freedom: freedom to and freedom from.  Both kinds of freedom must be limited for a society to function, because freedom from implies limits to others' freedoms to.

Spiritual traditions teach of freedom from desire, freedom from death, freedom from life, freedom from ignorance.

What is freedom, really?  Are you free?




Well, freedom from desire and attachment are not freedoms that imply any kind of limitations upon others' freedoms to do anything, as far as I can tell.

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OfflineLion
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Re: Freedom [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #9106292 - 10/20/08 08:25 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

That's true.  Didn't mean to imply that all freedoms from impinge on others' freedoms to...just some. 

The spiritual traditions line was to stimulate thought about freedom in general, not meant to be connected with the first paragraph.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Invisiblemanyc
♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫


Registered: 01/03/04
Posts: 571
Loc: Axis Mundi
Re: Freedom [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #9106305 - 10/20/08 08:27 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I believe true freedom is being able to just say that you've given into the reality of impermanence... that everything you know will someday just be a memory, or perhaps nothing at all. Really, there's a multitude of types of freedom... physical and mental kinds. But giving in to impermanence, I think, is true freedom.


--------------------

Hemp could Save the World.

"There is no flag that is large enough, to hide the shame of a man in cuffs." -Serj Tankian


:mushroomgrow:Know Thyself.:mushroomgrow:

"If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on."
-Terence Mckenna

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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Freedom [Re: Lion]
    #9106308 - 10/20/08 08:28 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Indeed.

Well, freedom is a lack of bondage. And I'd have to say that when "I" am free, "I" am not ME, so I am not free... but that is not to say that freedom cannot exist... for when freedom exists, I do not... and when I exist, freedom does not... it is a sticky pickle, this freedom nonsense...

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Invisiblemanyc
♫♪♫♪♫♪♫♪♫


Registered: 01/03/04
Posts: 571
Loc: Axis Mundi
Re: Freedom [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #9106337 - 10/20/08 08:31 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Yep. People have been struggling to attain freedom since the dawn of civilization.. and we're still struggling, heh.


--------------------

Hemp could Save the World.

"There is no flag that is large enough, to hide the shame of a man in cuffs." -Serj Tankian


:mushroomgrow:Know Thyself.:mushroomgrow:

"If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on."
-Terence Mckenna

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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Posts: 7,825
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Re: Freedom [Re: manyc]
    #9106356 - 10/20/08 08:33 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps the secret is... people have also been attaining freedom all along... it just can't be known by living beings, because the ultimate freedom is death...

...perhaps.

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InvisibleChronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: Freedom [Re: Lion]
    #9108490 - 10/21/08 04:51 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
We know about two kinds of freedom: freedom to and freedom from.  Both kinds of freedom must be limited for a society to function, because freedom from implies limits to others' freedoms to.

Spiritual traditions teach of freedom from desire, freedom from death, freedom from life, freedom from ignorance.

What is freedom, really?  Are you free?




True freedom is freedom from ignorance, imo ignorance is believing you somehow exist separate from the rest of life as an individual entity, over coming this ignorance is realizing the Self in all beings as no different from yourself & realzing that the Self is infinite in nature

I dont think theres any arguement against realzing your nature as infinite as not being the ultimate freedom

I am free!!! :psychsplit:


Quote:

Oweyervishice said:

In having a body, do we have more or less freedom than being pure nothingness? I'd say we certainly have more freedom being alive in a body in the physical world than we would being nonexistent.




There is no difference between your body & nothingness, they are inseparable, the very recognition of nothingness being all encompassing denotes the real actual material existence of the body, mind creates matter, when mind has become one with nothingness, the body is not felt as material existence, it is seen as illusory, everything becomes lighter...

Quote:

JacquesCousteau said:
Perhaps the secret is... people have also been attaining freedom all along... it just can't be known by living beings, because the ultimate freedom is death...

...perhaps.





“You will come in due course to realise that your true glory lies where you cease to exist.” Ramana Maharshi




:egyptian:


--------------------

Edited by Chronic7 (10/21/08 05:03 AM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Freedom [Re: Lion]
    #9108831 - 10/21/08 09:09 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
We know about two kinds of freedom: freedom to and freedom from.  Both kinds of freedom must be limited for a society to function, because freedom from implies limits to others' freedoms to.

Spiritual traditions teach of freedom from desire, freedom from death, freedom from life, freedom from ignorance.



What is freedom, really?  Are you free?




Most of our freedom is illusion IMO. From thinking to doing we are programmed by our nature and culture. However there is some wiggle room to not be exactly like everyone else.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineLion
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Re: Freedom [Re: Icelander]
    #9109101 - 10/21/08 10:48 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Funny enough, this post was inspired by a post of yours saying we have a lot of freedom, we just don't recognize it. :wink:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Freedom [Re: Lion]
    #9109103 - 10/21/08 10:48 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

That's the "wiggle room"


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Freedom [Re: Lion]
    #9109134 - 10/21/08 10:55 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
We know about two kinds of freedom: freedom to and freedom from.  Both kinds of freedom must be limited for a society to function, because freedom from implies limits to others' freedoms to.

Spiritual traditions teach of freedom from desire, freedom from death, freedom from life, freedom from ignorance.

What is freedom, really?  Are you free?




I'm free to do anything I want.  It's just that the government is likewise free to pursue any consequences it wishes.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinenumonkei
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Registered: 04/12/06
Posts: 2,500
Loc: A Tree
Last seen: 7 years, 5 days
Re: Freedom [Re: Lion]
    #9109138 - 10/21/08 10:55 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

What was the quote from the second or third matrix movie that the french man says.

"Freedom is an illusion to choice, thus an illusion those with power use to control those who don't"

Or something like that.

Freedom is certaily not a tangible or definitive, or even logical, device. You are free to own that firearm, but not to discharge it in the city limits, nor to smoke marijuana, but you are free to vote, unless you have previously lost your freedom and gone to prison...

...Yeah, freedom seems to be a pile of BS. Or maybe a percieved state spawned by complacency or overcoming adversity.




~Monk

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OfflineLion
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Re: Freedom [Re: deCypher]
    #9109163 - 10/21/08 11:02 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I'm free to do anything I want.  It's just that the government is likewise free to pursue any consequences it wishes.


You're actually not free to do anything you want, unless you have no desire to do anything whose cost exceeds your financial means, or anything that defies the laws of nature.  If you're anything like the majority of people, you're also bound by pre-existing belief systems not to pursue many of the things you want.

Is the freedom you're talking about - freedom to act - the ultimate kind of freedom?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Freedom [Re: Lion]
    #9109277 - 10/21/08 11:34 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

If something's too expensive, I'm perfectly free to steal it.

I try not to tie myself into a belief system.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Freedom [Re: deCypher]
    #9109299 - 10/21/08 11:38 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

You're not free to do anything you want, you are free to do anything you can.  Our maximized abilities are the ultimate limit of our freedom, and not the social rules & punishments we generally accept as limits.  Without fear of consequences, one could take any actions within their capabilities.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Freedom [Re: Veritas]
    #9109305 - 10/21/08 11:39 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Who's to say that I don't only want what I can get?  :tongue:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: Freedom [Re: deCypher]
    #9109309 - 10/21/08 11:39 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

It doesn't matter, you are still limited by your abilities, and not by your desires.  The fact that they might be perfectly matched is irrelevant to the discussion of freedom, though quite important to a discussion of satisfaction.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Posts: 56,232
Re: Freedom [Re: Veritas]
    #9109317 - 10/21/08 11:41 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Can one be perfectly free and still unsatisfied?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineLion
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Re: Freedom [Re: deCypher]
    #9109378 - 10/21/08 11:50 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
If something's too expensive, I'm perfectly free to steal it.

I try not to tie myself into a belief system.


Can you steal a personal jet, a vacation at an all expenses paid resort, a date with a supermodel?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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InvisibleVeritas
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Freedom [Re: deCypher]
    #9109417 - 10/21/08 12:00 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Sure, satisfaction is all in the mind, in the imagined discrepancy between what we have & what would be ideal.  Since we are perfectly free to act within our abilities (so long as we don't mind the potential consequences), obviously it is possible to be free AND dissatisfied.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: Freedom [Re: Lion]
    #9109432 - 10/21/08 12:04 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
Quote:

The Cypher said:
If something's too expensive, I'm perfectly free to steal it.

I try not to tie myself into a belief system.


Can you steal a personal jet, a vacation at an all expenses paid resort, a date with a supermodel?




Apparently stealing 6 million dollars can get you all of these things:  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25347905/

Quote:

Federal prosecutors said they have "overwhelming" evidence that he improperly spent up to $6 million from investors, much of it on a lavish lifestyle, including privately chartered jet travel with his girlfriend and others, expensive meals and clothing and a posh Manhattan apartment.




:lol:

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Freedom [Re: Lion]
    #9109467 - 10/21/08 12:12 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Lion said:
Quote:

The Cypher said:
If something's too expensive, I'm perfectly free to steal it.

I try not to tie myself into a belief system.



Can you steal a personal jet, a vacation at an all expenses paid resort, a date with a supermodel?




I imagine it as a sort of boot-strapping process.  If you can't steal the personal jet, then you can steal the money necessary to buy the jet.  If you can't steal the millions of dollars required for the jet, you can steal enough money to afford a torch cutter and tools to break into a bank to steal the millions of dollars.  If you can't steal ten thousand dollars to afford burglary tools, you can steal enough car stereos until you can.

Sort of like the guy who eventually was able to trade a paperclip for a house.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinebugsonwheels2
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Re: Freedom [Re: Lion]
    #13775249 - 01/12/11 03:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

America is supposed to be A land of the free, where everyone can practive their religiou s sanctions without state demise. let us take what belongs to us. I don't need some one to measure my head on behalf of mine or anyones body


--------------------
In order to form a more perfect union'
learn to trade.
raw foods. no smoke. vegan[gradient:#,#][/gradient]

"Why work on something I already know is happening?"

for some Mush Room, wiggle room free inside

Happiness and Peace come naturally to me.
Health and prosperity.
Be peace now

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Offlinebugsonwheels2
tarzan
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Registered: 12/29/10
Posts: 118
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Freedom [Re: bugsonwheels2]
    #13775296 - 01/12/11 03:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

america is full of ultra compassionate masturbation addicts that funnel t love through featuring explicit ways of chemsizing (sp) drugs,


--------------------
In order to form a more perfect union'
learn to trade.
raw foods. no smoke. vegan[gradient:#,#][/gradient]

"Why work on something I already know is happening?"

for some Mush Room, wiggle room free inside

Happiness and Peace come naturally to me.
Health and prosperity.
Be peace now

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