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 Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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 Re: Buddhism and desire.  [Re: deranger]
#9093357 - 10/17/08 07:36 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm thinking RET or Keyes, but Epictetus said it first to my knowledge.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deranger]
#9093366 - 10/17/08 07:37 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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that still doesn't make it not a habitual process.
It doesn't have to be.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Icelander]
#9093467 - 10/17/08 07:55 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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but isn't it, a lot of the time?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,169
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deranger]
#9095388 - 10/18/08 06:53 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
SyntheticMInd said:
Suffering is not caused by desire but attachment to fulfilling the desire.
i've always defined desire as a kind of attachment and habitual mental process. is this wrong?
linkage will occur if things happen together or if things are simmilar
anything can be linked with anything.
linkage is the same thing that people are calling attachment and habit.
it is the method of memory. it is not evil, but it can cascade into trouble.
desire relates to body feelings that are associated with experiences.
what is linked with desire in memory is often topsy turvey. like intoxicated.
I like being intoxicated, but I don't like to drive when I am intoxicated.
I think it is hardly about the "pain of not getting things",
but all about losing one's even mindedness and crashing around like an idiot.
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 _  🧠_ 
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
#9095430 - 10/18/08 07:55 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
According to Buddhism, (correct me if I'm wrong), suffering is a result of desire. We can't satisfy every craving that we have, and therefore we become unhappy. The only way out of this dilemma is to remove all manifestations of craving and desire that we have.
However, with the advent of technology and sophisticated computer modeling and neuroscience, we will eventually be able to plug our minds into a completely virtual simulation--where pleasure, omnipotence, and everything that we want will be able to be instantly satisfied.
What's wrong with this solution to the problem of suffering? Instead of removing desire, why not satisfy every desire?
Because desire is endless, we always want what we dont or cant have, once one desire is satisfied another will be born, the belly of the mind is never full!
As long as there is the perception of individuality there will always be a mindset of without, there will always be an urge & yearning to unite with something other than yourself. All beings seek unity with something & that is desire, to unite with something & feel peace in that unification. Theres nothing wrong with desiring peace but things outside yourself dont bring you peace because things outside yourself keep the chian of desire locked. So satisfying outside desires is endless, its like a bottomless pit, you cant fill it.
The end of desire is when you unify with or realize who you are, then desires fall away because you are whole, when you are one with it all what is there outside of yourself to desire?
Living in the tao is living desireless as nothing is outside of you, when there is no desire in you your free, this can be testified by anyone, that when they feel satisfied & without any desire (usually at the beginning of a new relationship) they will tell you they feel free & happy, because they feel whole & unified.
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 mr_kite
The Watcher
Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
Loc: shambhala
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
Quote:
SyntheticMInd said:
Suffering is not caused by desire but attachment to fulfilling the desire.
i've always defined desire as a kind of attachment and habitual mental process. is this wrong?
linkage will occur if things happen together or if things are simmilar
anything can be linked with anything.
linkage is the same thing that people are calling attachment and habit.
 Suffering is caused by attatchment to form
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let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deranger]
#9095731 - 10/18/08 10:36 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
SyntheticMInd said:
but isn't it, a lot of the time?
Yes most of the time. But we have a choice and can use it. Really it matters little what the majority do if we have a choice to do something different.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
it is the method of memory. it is not evil, but it can cascade into trouble.
yes, that wasn't saying the habitual patterns or "linkages" are necessarily always negative. i like getting intoxicated too 
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Icelander]
#9095736 - 10/18/08 10:37 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
SyntheticMInd said:
but isn't it, a lot of the time?
Yes most of the time. But we have a choice and can use it. Really it matters little what the majority do if we have a choice to do something different.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Chronic7]
#9095750 - 10/18/08 10:42 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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The end of desire is when you unify with or realize who you are, then desires fall away because you are whole, when you are one with it all what is there outside of yourself to desire?
I don't believe this for a minute. Your desire to post your views is proof of your incorrect assessment of what is real. No human will be without desire at any point in their life on earth. Desire is essential. Addiction to the fulfillment of desire is not. This is where most people miss the point. I may desire a donut. I do not have to lose my joy if I can't have one. If however I'm addicted to the fulfillment of my donut desire then I will suffer.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Chronic7]
#9095895 - 10/18/08 11:41 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Chronic777, you seem like you've gotten a hell of a lot out of pure meditation and self-awareness. What methods/types of meditation would you recommend to achieve a similar state?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,303
Loc: The Astral Realm
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
#9095949 - 10/18/08 12:00 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Its taught in my Indian Philosophy class that desires will cause some amount of Karma, which leaves you in the endless cycle of reincarnations (samsara).
In order to break free of samara, to liberation, all desires need to be given up in order to lose your karma.
Karma can be looked at as inertia, what is started or cause must continue, only to be ceased by forgiveness.
Sorry if that's vague.
Desires are becoming quite a hinderance. When I can't concentrate during meditation I always wonder "If I didn't have that slushy would I be having this problem?"
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#9096096 - 10/18/08 12:55 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:
Desires are becoming quite a hinderance. When I can't concentrate during meditation I always wonder "If I didn't have that slushy would I be having this problem?"
it's hard not to resist some of the great ideas that pop into mind during meditation. desires surface quite intensely... good practice !
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#9096560 - 10/18/08 03:02 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sorry if that's vague.
There's a good reason for this IMO.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte 
Last seen: 3 months, 9 days
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
#9103025 - 10/20/08 06:47 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
According to Buddhism, (correct me if I'm wrong), suffering is a result of desire. We can't satisfy every craving that we have, and therefore we become unhappy. The only way out of this dilemma is to remove all manifestations of craving and desire that we have.
However, with the advent of technology and sophisticated computer modeling and neuroscience, we will eventually be able to plug our minds into a completely virtual simulation--where pleasure, omnipotence, and everything that we want will be able to be instantly satisfied.
What's wrong with this solution to the problem of suffering? Instead of removing desire, why not satisfy every desire?
First off, there simply cannot ever be a state of being where every desire is fulfilled as many desires are contradictory to other desires that one may have at the outset. For instance, I may desire to play guitar, and yet I may also desire to take a jog.
As for Buddhism saying this or that, such is subject to interpretation, and I suggest, and people should listen to this, and that is that Buddhism is not explained in books. Or by college professors. It also is not something to buy into, preach, know merely intellectually, or much of anything else.
Buddhism is like brushing up against a wiser friend who can shift ones course slowly over lives towards better action and more inner knowledge.
All this 'desire-no desire' shit is merely that.
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...or something
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: eve69]
#9103420 - 10/20/08 09:56 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
eve69 said:
First off, there simply cannot ever be a state of being where every desire is fulfilled as many desires are contradictory to other desires that one may have at the outset.
I find this highly unlikely, especially due to my own experiences.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Icelander]
#9103445 - 10/20/08 10:03 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
The end of desire is when you unify with or realize who you are, then desires fall away because you are whole, when you are one with it all what is there outside of yourself to desire?
I don't believe this for a minute. Your desire to post your views is proof of your incorrect assessment of what is real. No human will be without desire at any point in their life on earth. Desire is essential. Addiction to the fulfillment of desire is not. This is where most people miss the point. I may desire a donut. I do not have to lose my joy if I can't have one. If however I'm addicted to the fulfillment of my donut desire then I will suffer.
Its still there like i still desire to eat food, your right, but the attachment is not there, so it cant really be said to be a heavy desire because your not left constantly wanting, your hungry you eat, your tired you sleep etc...theres no "oooh i reeeally want that, then ill be happy" which to me is desire, eating & sleeping & posting on forums expressing views are natural functions, i dont consider them as 'desires', the word desire to me implies attachment, as its memory of a past temporary fulfillment & then action on that desire, its a want of something
I dont knwo maybe the dictionary will correct me but i personally feel that desire is an attachment kindof word, when you say you desire something is just sounds like drooling over possesing something in the future, not making a post on a forum?
Like i dont desire to reply, i simply reply?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Chronic7]
#9103471 - 10/20/08 10:11 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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You are agreeing with me here.
So lets change the words and use preference vs addiction. I prefer to get some pussy tonight because I feel horny but because it's unavailable I let it go and continue to find things to do with my time. Now if I'm a sex addict I can't let go of this need and it drives me crazy because I can't get it right now. Now I am suffering.
Heavy desire? Light desire? You are talking preference vs addiction. To really get a feel for this concept check out an amazing book called The Handbook to Higher Consciousness, - Ken Keyes
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Icelander]
#9103573 - 10/20/08 10:36 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
You are agreeing with me here.
So lets change the words and use preference vs addiction. I prefer to get some pussy tonight because I feel horny but because it's unavailable I let it go and continue to find things to do with my time. Now if I'm a sex addict I can't let go of this need and it drives me crazy because I can't get it right now. Now I am suffering.
Heavy desire? Light desire? You are talking preference vs addiction. To really get a feel for this concept check out an amazing book called The Handbook to Higher Consciousness, - Ken Keyes
I actually bought a copy of it a long while back & enjoyed it, i wasn't personally feeling the "12 step program to enlightenment" where he was basically saying "memorize this & you'll be free" which i dont agree with at all, but if theres one thing i walked away with as a very powerful reminder was its suggestion of having preferences over attachments
I think whats also important is that he stated at the beggining of the book that everything he has learned & recorded in the book was derived from the Buddhas 4 noble truths, which was nice that he gave props where due
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Chronic7]
#9103631 - 10/20/08 10:50 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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"memorize this & you'll be free"
I think he stated that you could memorize them so you could use them They would have to become working programs within your everyday experience for them to be effective.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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