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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
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Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud
#9093910 - 10/17/08 09:20 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Oct. 17 (Bloomberg) -- Barack Obama's campaign asked the U.S. Justice Department to expand a special prosecutor's investigation to include possible improprieties surrounding reports the FBI is looking into voter fraud in the presidential race.
Obama's campaign attorney said the investigation should look into a leak to the news media that the FBI is probing allegations of voter registration fraud by a grassroots organization called ACORN. The group's activities were denounced by Republican nominee John McCain in the Oct. 15 presidential debate.
Republican voter-fraud accusations ``seek both to suppress the vote and to unduly influence investigations and prosecutions,''
wrote Robert Bauer, general counsel for the Democratic presidential nominee. He made the statement in a letter to Mukasey and special prosecutor Nora Dannehy, who is looking into the nine U.S. attorney firings in 2006.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aAYOYsAX8sQs&refer=home
Investigate people who "allege" voter fraud???
Obama's campaign attorney can Go Fuck himself!
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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thedefone
deus ex machina
Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: lonestar2004]
#9094054 - 10/17/08 09:52 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Get off your high horse please. Both parties are wrong here. Democratic entities have their hands in questionable registration fraud, and the Ohio GOP's attempts at wholesale disenfranchisement in reaction are equally deplorable.
-------------------- I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: lonestar2004]
#9094075 - 10/17/08 09:55 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I told ya the FBI would get flack for leaking that
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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Gogol
Wait, what?
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: thedefone]
#9094091 - 10/17/08 09:58 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
thedefone said: Get off your high horse please. Both parties are wrong here. Democratic entities have their hands in questionable registration fraud, and the Ohio GOP's attempts at wholesale disenfranchisement in reaction are equally deplorable.
Well said.
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The_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: lonestar2004]
#9094116 - 10/17/08 10:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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voter fraud or voter registration fraud? Which one is it.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
#9094153 - 10/17/08 10:10 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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could be both when they allowed people to register and vote in the same day, snatching up the homeless and allowing/encouraging them to use addresses like the YMCA
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9094160 - 10/17/08 10:11 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said: I told ya the FBI would get flack for leaking that
sometimes information is deliberately leaked, it helps to get people to come forward
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The_Red_Crayon
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9094168 - 10/17/08 10:13 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said: could be both when they allowed people to register and vote in the same day, snatching up the homeless and allowing/encouraging them to use addresses like the YMCA
So homeless dont have the right to vote, is that what you're saying?
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9094197 - 10/17/08 10:20 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
Ferris said: I told ya the FBI would get flack for leaking that
sometimes information is deliberately leaked, it helps to get people to come forward
I'll give you that. Ethics meets the real world. If they tell that to the investigators of the investigation, it'll be called off.
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
#9094226 - 10/17/08 10:28 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The_Red_Crayon said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said: could be both when they allowed people to register and vote in the same day, snatching up the homeless and allowing/encouraging them to use addresses like the YMCA
So homeless dont have the right to vote, is that what you're saying?
absolutely not, I just dont believe you should be allowed to register and vote in the same day, I believe that you should have to be registered 30 days prior to voting as that was the intent in the laws in ohio, unfortunately like many laws, it allowed for abuse when they started the early polling at 32 days before the general election, I'm of the opinion that if you need an early vote, have it a week before, gonna be out of town, an absentee ballot and still be registered 30 days prior to that vote
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9094243 - 10/17/08 10:31 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
Quote:
sometimes information is deliberately leaked, it helps to get people to come forward
If they tell that to the investigators of the investigation, it'll be called off.
no it wont, it could still potentially strip votes from obama, his people wontallow it, the good part is if that 'leak' is from the FBI, they are exempted from prosecution on the federal, if they were charged at the state level they could petition it to be move before the federal courts and have it dismissed
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9094306 - 10/17/08 10:45 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I believe that the FBI (or its agents) can be prosecuted if the Attorney General allows it (I heard that somewhere, I think a government class, but I might have misheard). So lets hope they don't let this drag in to January. Of course, there are still the possibilities of internal investigations, legislative committees (also highly unlikely). Let's just remember that this is just a fact-finding investigation (both of them), not anything directly leading to prosecution.
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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The_Red_Crayon
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9094339 - 10/17/08 10:52 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
The_Red_Crayon said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said: could be both when they allowed people to register and vote in the same day, snatching up the homeless and allowing/encouraging them to use addresses like the YMCA
So homeless dont have the right to vote, is that what you're saying?
absolutely not, I just dont believe you should be allowed to register and vote in the same day, I believe that you should have to be registered 30 days prior to voting as that was the intent in the laws in ohio, unfortunately like many laws, it allowed for abuse when they started the early polling at 32 days before the general election, I'm of the opinion that if you need an early vote, have it a week before, gonna be out of town, an absentee ballot and still be registered 30 days prior to that vote
Im not going to disagree with you there, ACORN and its practices sure seem to be suspicious, however I play devils advocate here, so you might see me come from the left and come from the right. However i consider myself a conservative mostly.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9094362 - 10/17/08 10:57 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said: I believe that the FBI (or its agents) can be prosecuted if the Attorney General allows it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supremacy_Clause
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lon_Horiuchi In 1997, Boundary County, Idaho Prosecutor Denise Woodbury, with the help of special prosecutor Stephen Yagman, charged Horiuchi in state court with involuntary manslaughter. Horiuchi successfully petitioned to remove the case to federal court,[4] where the case was dismissed by U.S. District Judge Edward Lodge on May 14, 1998, who cited the supremacy clause of the Constitution which grants immunity to federal officers acting in the scope of their employment.[1]
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9094483 - 10/17/08 11:26 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ya, but I believe its outside the "scope of their employment" (or can be construed as such on a temporary basis) to leak information in a shut case that has the ability to effect the outcome of an election.
Clarification: I'm not talking about my own views per se on this one, just how serious men with specific powers are going to be viewing it.
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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MrBump
Third prize is you're fired
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9094488 - 10/17/08 11:28 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
absolutely not, I just dont believe you should be allowed to register and vote in the same day, I believe that you should have to be registered 30 days prior to voting as that was the intent in the laws in ohio, unfortunately like many laws, it allowed for abuse when they started the early polling at 32 days before the general election, I'm of the opinion that if you need an early vote, have it a week before, gonna be out of town, an absentee ballot and still be registered 30 days prior to that vote
why do you believe that a citizen shouldnt be allowed to register and vote on the same day?
-------------------- If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all. There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn. Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9094519 - 10/17/08 11:35 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said: Ya, but I believe its outside the "scope of their employment" (or can be construed as such on a temporary basis) to leak information in a shut case that has the ability to effect the outcome of an election.
funny... must have been me that leaked it, I posted the info a week ago
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9094533 - 10/17/08 11:39 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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They leaked information about the investigation itself and of its scope. They weren't supposed to do that. That part is pretty simple. You well know what the implications of leaking that kind of information are. If it were no big deal, this thread wouldn't exist.
I'm not saying something will come of this, just that it was enough of a breech of protocol to get the attention of the higher-ups, and not just the ones already paying attention to it.
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: MrBump]
#9094544 - 10/17/08 11:41 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
thecornking said: why do you believe that a citizen shouldnt be allowed to register and vote on the same day?
voter fraud? seems that it's a little easier to get away with if you can do it at a dozen places in one afternoon, as america doesnt require the voters to slap their name on ballots and cross reference them against the voter ID and a drivers license it seems like it may be difficult to determine which ones should be thrown out to keep the election fair
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pinkfloydms
!!!!!
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9094554 - 10/17/08 11:43 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Fair? You don't think both sides had people voting in multiple places?
-------------------- Muppet Said: so yeah: - 'sex' five times - once with a man - once with a cadaver - and thrice with actual women(all of which were prostitutes) Best story ever! www.panicstream.com
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MrBump
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9094676 - 10/18/08 12:08 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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WI allows citizens to register and vote on the same day, given the following:
3. AT THE POLLING PLACE ON ELECTION DAY: If you wish to register to vote at your polling place, you must bring proof that you have lived at your present location for at least 10 days preceding the election. For purposes of voter registration, acceptable forms of proof of residence must include:
1. A current and complete name, including both the given and family name; and
2. A current and complete residential address, including a numbered street address, if any, and the name of a municipality.
**Forms with an expiration date must be valid on Election Day.
PROOF OF RESIDENCE
The following constitute acceptable Proof-of-Residence if the document contains the information specified above:
1. A current and valid Wisconsin driver's license. 2. A current and valid Wisconsin identification card. 3. Any other official identification card or license issued by a Wisconsin governmental body or unit. 4. Any identification card issued by an employer in the normal course of business and bearing a photo of the card holder, but not including a business card. 5. A real estate tax bill or receipt for the current year or the year preceding the date of the election. 6. A residential lease which is effective for a period that includes election day (NOT for first-time voters registering by mail). 7. A university, college or technical institute fee card (must include photo). 8. A university, college or technical institute identification card (must include photo). 9. A gas, electric or telephone service statement (utility bill) for the period commencing not earlier than 90 days before election day. 10. Bank statement. 11. Paycheck. 12. A check or other document issued by a unit of government.
all of my adult life I have voted in WI. The last time I tried I voted I showed up at the place in Milwaukee where i had voted for the past 6 yrs, except at this time I was living in the suburbs. I gave the woman my Id and an electric bill from my new residence and she denied me, telling me that based on where I lived I could not vote at this particular polling station.
I guess an individual could vote more than once if he went to one polling station w/ a gas bill showing a very current residence in that district, and then use an outdated state issued DL to vote at another station. but 30 days prior to the election a person could do the same thing, register w/ an outdated DL, and then register again w. a recent electric bill showing a different address.
So i guess I dont see how barring election day voter registration would inhibit voter fraud, but for the people committing voter fraud would have to plan ahead a little.
-------------------- If it weren't for the bloody corpses, I wouldn't have any corpses at all. There are two ways to get to the top of an oak tree: start climbing or sit on an acorn. Are you a carrot, an egg, or a coffee bean?
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Phred
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: pinkfloydms]
#9094718 - 10/18/08 12:16 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fair? You don't think both sides had people voting in multiple places?
Nope.
But I find it interesting you seem unconcerned with voter fraud as long as both sides do it. Why not just stop it?
If backwards countries such as Iraq can figure out how to reliably stop voter fraud (see my avatar), it boggles the mind that the US can't.
But of course, the US can. It's just that the Democrats do everything in their power to make sure the US doesn't. Dems are dishonest but they aren't stupid. They know damn well that lax measures for preventing voter fraud benefit them to a far greater degree than the other side.
Phred
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pinkfloydms
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Phred]
#9094734 - 10/18/08 12:19 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Where the fuck did I say I wasn't concerned? You need to learn to quit putting words in peoples mouths.
-------------------- Muppet Said: so yeah: - 'sex' five times - once with a man - once with a cadaver - and thrice with actual women(all of which were prostitutes) Best story ever! www.panicstream.com
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: pinkfloydms]
#9094850 - 10/18/08 12:51 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
pinkfloydms said: Fair? You don't think both sides had people voting in multiple places?
probably, not the candidates people but I'm sure there is a good bit happening from both sides, obama isnt orchestrating the acorn crap, regardless it's happening, and the way fair works, one side got busted now a toll may have to be payed
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Mushmonkey
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
#9094921 - 10/18/08 01:19 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The_Red_Crayon said:
Quote:
Prisoner#1 said: could be both when they allowed people to register and vote in the same day, snatching up the homeless and allowing/encouraging them to use addresses like the YMCA
So homeless dont have the right to vote, is that what you're saying?
Not multiple times, no, they don't.
-------------------- i finally got around to making a sig revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might grar.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
#9095527 - 10/18/08 09:13 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The_Red_Crayon said: voter fraud or voter registration fraud? Which one is it.
Both. http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/10/15/fraud_followup.html?type=rss&cat=&sid=101
Quote:
O'Brien told The Dispatch that he is investigating allegations that 13 out-of-state residents recently registered to vote, all claiming to live at 2885 Brownlee Rd.
The individuals apparently were in Columbus working for Vote From Home, a group working to increase young-voter turnout in Ohio and using the house as their base of operation, O'Brien said.
"None of the people who registered had prior contacts with Columbus and Franklin County," O'Brien said. "You must be a resident of the state of Ohio in order to register and cast a ballot, and that's the issue being examined - whether they were proper residents of Ohio."
Two of the individuals voted in person at Veteran's Memorial while a third returned a completed absentee ballot by mail, said Matt Damshroder, deputy director of the Franklin County Board of Elections.
Another seven using the address requested absentee ballots by mail, but it is not yet clear if they have submitted them. Three others registered but did not request an absentee ballot or participate in early voting.
More on the same incident, with names of the "voters": http://michellemalkin.com/2008/10/15/voter-fraud-alert-houseful-of-out-of-state-obama-activists-registered-as-ohio-voters-received-absentee-ballots/
Then we have New Mexico: http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MzBjMzc0ZmRhMzI4OTY0ZTg1MmNjOTBkYTBlYTkxZTU=
Quote:
Today, news out of New Mexico, the state GOP looked at information for 92 newly-registered voters in one district, and found 28 had "missing or inaccurate Social Security numbers or birth dates. In some cases, more than one voter was registered using the same Social Security number. In others, people who the Republicans said had no Social Security number on public record were registered." All of these are of individuals who have already cast ballots in the June New Mexico state legislative Democratic primary. Hey, guess who was out registering voters in this district before the primary? Aw, you saw this coming - ACORN. The same group running into legal troubles in thirteen other states. When you see the same issues coming up with the same group in fourteen different instances, how much more evidence do you need before you conclude that this is "organized voter fraud"?
Pay attention, kiddies, voter registration fraud occurs for one reason and one reason only. To facilitate voter fraud.
--------------------
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9095555 - 10/18/08 09:24 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said: could be both when they allowed people to register and vote in the same day, snatching up the homeless and allowing/encouraging them to use addresses like the YMCA
*when the law requires that they be allowed to register and cast a ballot (not vote under state law) on the same day
Quote:
absolutely not, I just dont believe you should be allowed to register and vote in the same day, I believe that you should have to be registered 30 days prior to voting as that was the intent in the laws in ohio, unfortunately like many laws, it allowed for abuse when they started the early polling at 32 days before the general election, I'm of the opinion that if you need an early vote, have it a week before, gonna be out of town, an absentee ballot and still be registered 30 days prior to that vote
Ummm... k?
So we should not care what the law says? We should devine the intent? How do you suppose we do that?
The constitution of ohio provides for laws to be made. Those laws are voted on in written form and afterwords transcribed into the revised code. You're suggesting the constitution really means we must decide what was voted upon wasn't really what the law is? Something else, for a judge to decide...
Edited by johnm214 (10/18/08 09:31 AM)
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lonestar2004
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9095571 - 10/18/08 09:29 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said: I told ya the FBI would get flack for leaking that
"a probe into allegedly false Republican claims of voter fraud"
Its not just the FBI.
"Barack Obama's campaign attorney today asked Attorney General Michael Mukasey to add a probe into allegedly false Republican claims of voter fraud to the investigation into the firings of U.S. attorneys.
Republican voter-fraud accusations ``seek both to suppress the vote and to unduly influence investigations and prosecutions,''
http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20081017/pl_bloomberg/aayoysax8sqs
IMO the people (not just republicans) that are trying to stop others from illegally voting, are also the target of this investigation....
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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zappaisgod
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: lonestar2004]
#9095588 - 10/18/08 09:39 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Allegedly false? Alleged by whom? The fraudsters themselves. Let's nutshell this. The people who have demonstrably facilitated fraudulent voter registration are asking for an investigation of those who have rightfully pointed out said fraud on the grounds that not every specific instance of dubious registration is, in fact, fraudulent.
There is no shame at all in the Obama camp. Kill the Messenger! they cried and Joe the Plumber and whistleblowers everywhere were beaten by lawyers with writs and reporters with...well nothing. First my plumber was taken and I said nothing, then my court clerk was taken and I said nothing..... There can be no questioning of That One for he is anointed.
--------------------
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lonestar2004
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9095597 - 10/18/08 09:43 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said: They leaked information about the investigation itself and of its scope. They weren't supposed to do that. That part is pretty simple. You well know what the implications of leaking that kind of information are. If it were no big deal, this thread wouldn't exist.
I'm not saying something will come of this, just that it was enough of a breech of protocol to get the attention of the higher-ups, and not just the ones already paying attention to it.
The thread exists because of thousands of fraudulent voter-registration applications submitted by ACORN and now Obama is trying To Prosecute Those Who Claim Voter Fraud...
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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lonestar2004
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
#9095602 - 10/18/08 09:44 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: Allegedly false? Alleged by whom? The fraudsters themselves. Let's nutshell this. The people who have demonstrably facilitated fraudulent voter registration are asking for an investigation of those who have rightfully pointed out said fraud on the grounds that not every specific instance of dubious registration is, in fact, fraudulent.
There is no shame at all in the Obama camp.
Exactly!
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: johnm214]
#9096083 - 10/18/08 12:52 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: *when the law requires that they be allowed to register and cast a ballot (not vote under state law) on the same day
does the law say it's required to register and vote on the same day or does it simply say they must be registered 30 days prior to the general election, if I cast my ballot, I've entered my vote, it's simply another means of articulating the same act in two ways
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The constitution of ohio provides for laws to be made. Those laws are voted on in written form and afterwords transcribed into the revised code.
when a law is passed are all the laws it will affect also reviewed and revised? the the registration limitation dates take into account laws that had not yet been passed, electronic voting or anything that would come 50-60 years in the future?
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You're suggesting the constitution really means we must decide what was voted upon wasn't really what the law is? Something else, for a judge to decide...
can you point out where I said that?
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AnonymousRabbit
Comrade
Registered: 01/10/08
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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/19/22 01:06 AM)
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9096144 - 10/18/08 01:12 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
johnm214 said: *when the law requires that they be allowed to register and cast a ballot (not vote under state law) on the same day
does the law say it's required to register and vote on the same day or does it simply say they must be registered 30 days prior to the general election, if I cast my ballot, I've entered my vote, it's simply another means of articulating the same act in two ways
The law says you have the right and are quallified to be an elector if as of election day (not as of the day you 'vote') you had been registered for thirty days. Since the people turning in the ballots will be registered for 30 days prior to election day, they qualify. The law also provides for absentee ballot casting in a specific period. Since you are qualified to cast an absentee ballot if you are registered and are casting it in a certain period, and you are qualified to be an eletor if you are registered for 30 days as of the election, you have the right to cast your ballot and register at the same time if you do so in the statutory window.
And when you submit your absentee ballot you just turn it in. It is not a vote untill election day when it is opened. Just like a provisional ballot is cast but not a vote untill the statute has been complied with so to aren't absentee ballot submissions. Otherwise the absurdity is plain. You get people that voted that didn't vote.( if their provisional ballot is found to be improper)
Quote:
Quote:
The constitution of ohio provides for laws to be made. Those laws are voted on in written form and afterwords transcribed into the revised code.
when a law is passed are all the laws it will affect also reviewed and revised? the the registration limitation dates take into account laws that had not yet been passed, electronic voting or anything that would come 50-60 years in the future?
They are not required to. I believe they are supposed to in the legislative services committee, but who knows if they do that.
And no, the legislature seldom has any idea what the hell is going on, so what? They are clueless and nevertheless their muck is still binding.
If they'd stop making so many damned laws or simply take a few hours to read the bill and the similar bills and think" how will this affect the current state of the law" we wouldn't have these messes. But they don't, and they still churn out laws at a stupefying pace.
But seriously, are you supporting legislative intent as a binding part of the statute?
[quote
Quote:
You're suggesting the constitution really means we must decide what was voted upon wasn't really what the law is? Something else, for a judge to decide...
can you point out where I said that?
Where you mentioned the word intent. You seemed, to me, to be saying that the intent of the law is somehow binding and that means the way voting was conducted in ohio recently is illegal somehow.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: johnm214]
#9096193 - 10/18/08 01:32 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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> It is not a vote untill election day when it is opened.
It should be counted as a vote by the date it was post marked, not the date it was opened.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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saved by zero
Stranger
Registered: 09/30/08
Posts: 359
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
#9096199 - 10/18/08 01:34 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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God, this sounds like Florida all over again. Disenfranchised my big ol' hairy ass!!!!! Why is it that the leftist can't see what is going on here? Obviously duped or incapable of thought for themselves and of the "baaaaaaaa" persuasion
-------------------- I'm not a redneck, I'm a Appalachian-American
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: saved by zero]
#9096202 - 10/18/08 01:37 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Explain to me how this will win the election for the Democrats.
God damn it. Hundreds of posts on the subject, and none of you can explain even that. I've asked at least a couple times before.
The reason is that you can't. So put up, or shut the hell up.
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9096215 - 10/18/08 01:41 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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The only reason this is a dem problem and not a GOP problem is that the dems are the only party that really does voter drives, since people who don't vote are way more likely to vote dem than GOP.
I think that if you look at the GOP voter frauds, and compared them to the dem ones, that you'd see a proportionate correlation going on there.
This sort of thing happens, its not a conspiracy, get over it
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9096218 - 10/18/08 01:42 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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What difference does it make which party it benefits when fraud is being perpetrated? Let's break it down. Republicans are screaming about illegal voters being registered and voting. Democrats are screaming that it is wrong to complain. Why do you suppose that it is that way? Are you such a partisan whore that the outcome should determine the validity of a vote?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
#9096223 - 10/18/08 01:43 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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http://www.walb.com/global/story.asp?s=9191440
Quote:
He told his family that an aide from Primus took him and five other mentally challenged clients to vote and forced them to vote for Barack Obama.
Justice says he told the aide he wanted to vote for John McCain, but was overridden.
Election officials say if that happened, the aide will face criminal charges.
Nice.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9096230 - 10/18/08 01:45 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said: The only reason this is a dem problem and not a GOP problem is that the dems are the only party that really does voter drives, since people who don't vote are way more likely to vote dem than GOP.
I think that if you look at the GOP voter frauds, and compared them to the dem ones, that you'd see a proportionate correlation going on there.
This sort of thing happens, its not a conspiracy, get over it
It is a conspiracy and regardless, fraud needs to be eliminated whenever possible. Do you have a problem with that?
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saved by zero
Stranger
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9096234 - 10/18/08 01:45 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said: Explain to me how this will win the election for the Democrats.
God damn it. Hundreds of posts on the subject, and none of you can explain even that. I've asked at least a couple times before.
The reason is that you can't. So put up, or shut the hell up.
God damn it back at cha.
No one is saying it will win the election for the democrats. Read and you'll see the arguments are that: what is happening is WRONG for all involved.
What is being pointed out is that its too fucking funny( if ya wanna call it that) that in all honesty, in this situation, it is the democrats that stand to gain from these practices.
Obama suing over it is absolutely asinine. and but for his political gain, I'd bet he wouldn't be doing it.
-------------------- I'm not a redneck, I'm a Appalachian-American
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saved by zero
Stranger
Registered: 09/30/08
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
#9096242 - 10/18/08 01:48 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: What difference does it make which party it benefits when fraud is being perpetrated? Let's break it down. Republicans are screaming about illegal voters being registered and voting. Democrats are screaming that it is wrong to complain. Why do you suppose that it is that way? Are you such a partisan whore that the outcome should determine the validity of a vote?
HEAR, HEAR
-------------------- I'm not a redneck, I'm a Appalachian-American
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
#9096248 - 10/18/08 01:49 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: What difference does it make which party it benefits when fraud is being perpetrated? Let's break it down. Republicans are screaming about illegal voters being registered and voting. Democrats are screaming that it is wrong to complain. Why do you suppose that it is that way? Are you such a partisan whore that the outcome should determine the validity of a vote?
The "fraud" won't effect the election. Libeling the organization and the democratic party by making unfounded claims about the volume and extent of the incident will effect the election, while itself being against the law (at least civil).
The efficacy of the voter card situation is null, but that of the claims arising from it are high. Which should be taken more seriously with that in mind?
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9096265 - 10/18/08 01:53 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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One single fraudulent vote, one, no matter who it is for, is far worse than any spoken act. And there is a coherent pattern of voter fraud being perpetrated by a single group that receives not only federal funding but has been the recipient of largesse from Obama. Answer the fucking question, why are you calling out the whistleblowers? And not the crooks. I know the answer.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9096271 - 10/18/08 01:54 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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In America, the truth is not libel.
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saved by zero
Stranger
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9096281 - 10/18/08 01:57 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
The "fraud" won't effect the election.
Are you just "playing" dumb, or do you REALLY believe that?
-------------------- I'm not a redneck, I'm a Appalachian-American
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
#9096291 - 10/18/08 01:59 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: One single fraudulent vote, one, no matter who it is for, is far worse than any spoken act.
That's bullshit. For one, there are no fraudulent votes this election, nor probably will there be. Second, I don't need to be studying wave probability functions to tell you that one vote doesn't matter versus millions. Don't get existential with me. If you want to get existential, tell me how lying to millions of Americans in order to change their votes based off a false premise matters less than that one insignificant vote.
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: johnm214]
#9096299 - 10/18/08 02:01 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: The law says you have the right and are quallified to be an elector if as of election day (not as of the day you 'vote') you had been registered for thirty days. Since the people turning in the ballots will be registered for 30 days prior to election day, they qualify.
so you see the failing in the law, if I'm able to go down and register and cast a ballot in 30 precincts in a day, do you not see a potential for abuse? Federal law mandates that a voter be registered for 30 days prior to voting, by simply waiting 30 days to count the ballots they believe this is the way around that, unfortunately when I cast a ballot for candidates I have in fact voted and violated that federal law
Quote:
The law also provides for absentee ballot casting in a specific period. Since you are qualified to cast an absentee ballot if you are registered and are casting it in a certain period
in previous years you were required to fit within a certain criteria, now it's listed as 'no fault' voting and these are people that will most likely be in their 'homes' on election day, are these people 'absentees'?
Quote:
They are not required to. I believe they are supposed to in the legislative services committee, but who knows if they do that.
who knows if they even read the bills they vote on, who cares if the state goes down the shitter, obviously not the residents
Quote:
But seriously, are you supporting legislative intent as a binding part of the statute?
I'm supporting negating the early voters ballots, disenfranchising thousands unless they legitimately qualify for the absentee ballot under the old provisions until Ohio gets their shit together and amends their election laws and thus pissing off the ohio voters enough that they DEMAND the laws be fixed
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: saved by zero]
#9096306 - 10/18/08 02:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
saved by zero said:
Quote:
Ferris said:
The "fraud" won't effect the election.
Are you just "playing" dumb, or do you REALLY believe that?
Again, calling me stupid is your argument. I'll skip the latin.
Give me a breakdown.
Cooooome on, you can do it.
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9096316 - 10/18/08 02:06 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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The fraud will inDEED change the election, if the Sec. of State of Ohio gets her way and they do not properly verify that all these newly registered voters who have already cast their absentee ballots are in fact eligible to vote (and are real people).
Did I mention she's a democrat? Do you think maybe she's an Obama supporter? Can you connect the dots? What she is arguing is that all of these voters should be considered legitimate, even though we KNOW there has been widespread fraud going on. At this point the only question is whether the voter fraud has been the result of rogue volunteers taking action independently or whether they were following procedures handed down from the leadership of ACORN. Which, considering HOW widespread it is, it's clearly organized.. so the question is how well the leadership of ACORN has been at covering their trail.
The Ohio Secretary of State wants to count fraudulent votes because it's too much work to determine if they are fraudulent or not. The GOP is saying "bullshit, investigate", and the DNC is saying "waaah, you're intimidating voters!"
What kind of asshole could support the DNC and Obama in this action and still maintain any idea that they support fairness and lawful behaviour?
-------------------- i finally got around to making a sig revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might grar.
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saved by zero
Stranger
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9096317 - 10/18/08 02:06 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Answer my damn question......Do you believe that?
Come on, YOU can do it......be strong!
-------------------- I'm not a redneck, I'm a Appalachian-American
Edited by saved by zero (10/18/08 02:07 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9096340 - 10/18/08 02:12 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: One single fraudulent vote, one, no matter who it is for, is far worse than any spoken act.
That's bullshit. For one, there are no fraudulent votes this election, nor probably will there be. Second, I don't need to be studying wave probability functions to tell you that one vote doesn't matter versus millions. Don't get existential with me. If you want to get existential, tell me how lying to millions of Americans in order to change their votes based off a false premise matters less than that one insignificant vote.
You are not paying attention, you are reading talking points. You are drastically behind the news. I have already posted links to fraudulent votes, already cast, in Ohio and another of a retard whose vote was manipulated by his social worker and more in New Mexico. duran duran has 74 listings for addresses in NM. He voted in the primary. There are only 5 duran durans in NY. It isn't bullshit. You are a hack.
Lying to millions of Americans? What lie are you referring to? It is up to them to determine what they believe. Would you like me to list some of Barry's lies? Again?
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9096361 - 10/18/08 02:17 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > It is not a vote untill election day when it is opened.
It should be counted as a vote by the date it was post marked, not the date it was opened.
These are ballots that are submited in person generally, as you have to show up in person to register and vote all at once to my understanding.
But in Ohio, even if its a regular absentee ballot mailed in from someone that's been registered forever, its not a vote untill election day, till then its a ballot. So the postamark would be the date the ballot was cast, not the date the vote was cast. The date of the vote is always eleciton day, and it is cast when it is unsealed, inspected, and counted.
Quote:
so you see the failing in the law, if I'm able to go down and register and cast a ballot in 30 precincts in a day, do you not see a potential for abuse? Federal law mandates that a voter be registered for 30 days prior to voting, by simply waiting 30 days to count the ballots they believe this is the way around that, unfortunately when I cast a ballot for candidates I have in fact voted and violated that federal law
Yes I agree the law is stupid and the ohio legislature is stupid, and they likely were too ignorant to even consider what these laws they were passing would mean (i.e. the law defining the window for absentee voting and the language they use). The dumb thing is there's not too many relevant secitons of code.... could count em on two hands. So rather than take a look and say "what will this do" they just voted for the bills like retarded monkies.
This is why I've said for a while that it would be better if we could elect rocks. At least they'd stop churning out these laws like crazy and harrasing people.
Quote:
n previous years you were required to fit within a certain criteria, now it's listed as 'no fault' voting and these are people that will most likely be in their 'homes' on election day, are these people 'absentees'?
If they vote absentee then yes. They can just show up and cast their vote ahead of time regardless of the reason, in my understanding. McCain put out registration cards and people couldn't even fill them out corrrectly (didn't check the obvious box that said you swear you didn't lie) and the supreme court allowed those too (correctly I'd think even though the reisterin parties seemed like they had no idea what they were doing).
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who knows if they even read the bills they vote on, who cares if the state goes down the shitter, obviously not the residents
yep, ohio sucks... among the highest taxed state in teh nation. People vote like everywhere else though, and never bother to check what their legislature is doing... then they blame the judges when the stupid laws that were passed piss everyone off and lead to absurd, but legally correct, results like that in the present case.
Quote:
I'm supporting negating the early voters ballots, disenfranchising thousands unless they legitimately qualify for the absentee ballot under the old provisions until Ohio gets their shit together and amends their election laws and thus pissing off the ohio voters enough that they DEMAND the laws be fixed
No reason to. Laws aren't broke. The law mandated what is going on. the law was stupid.
If anyone was more than a blithering idiot they could have forseen this, but nope....
And you can't retroactivly disenfranchise folks either, tis a no no.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: johnm214]
#9096400 - 10/18/08 02:26 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Laws weren't broken?
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9095527#Post9095527
Quote:
"None of the people who registered had prior contacts with Columbus and Franklin County," O'Brien said. "You must be a resident of the state of Ohio in order to register and cast a ballot, and that's the issue being examined - whether they were proper residents of Ohio."
Two of the individuals voted in person at Veteran's Memorial while a third returned a completed absentee ballot by mail, said Matt Damshroder, deputy director of the Franklin County Board of Elections.
Felonies. Book 'em, Danno. There's more.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
#9096404 - 10/18/08 02:27 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Read my post again. I said "this election."
You're all acting as if there isn't a system in place to ensure that votes are made by real people, that they're just going to count every vote.
I don't know how things work in Ohio, I'll look into it since there's no way your explanation of the process can be correct (delusional bastard). But I have worked as a poll worker at both the booth and the office, and I see people checking ballots and cards. So I know there's a system.
I'm starting to equate all you who think that whatever small percent of votes that get through of the small percent of cards that are verified, can possibly make a difference. Furthermore, I resent the implication that the democrats are stupid enough to think that when they are so far ahead in an election, that they need to cheat, and that they are stupid enough to think that they won't get caught or that enough will get through to even make it worth their while.
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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zappaisgod
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9096426 - 10/18/08 02:32 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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There is a system in place and it is being used. What safeguards the system is a concerted effort to punish cheats. Obama (and you) wishes to circumvent that effort for expediency. Hence the whore label. You (and Barry)stand for nothing and thus will fall for anything.
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Edited by zappaisgod (10/18/08 02:32 PM)
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AnonymousRabbit
Comrade
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.
-------------------- .
Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/19/22 01:06 AM)
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
#9096450 - 10/18/08 02:39 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Now you're being paranoid. There is non-partisan, federal oversight of the process. So if there is something going on there, the administration will get to the bottom of it, and Ohio's electoral votes may even need to be withheld in the meantime.
In reality, the process will be ruled okay, meanwhile fake votes will be nullified, and the world will be normal, with the sky remaining up where it has always been.
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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saved by zero
Stranger
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9096460 - 10/18/08 02:41 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said: Read my post again. I said "this election."
You're all acting as if there isn't a system in place to ensure that votes are made by real people, that they're just going to count every vote.
I don't know how things work in Ohio, I'll look into it since there's no way your explanation of the process can be correct (delusional bastard). But I have worked as a poll worker at both the booth and the office, and I see people checking ballots and cards. So I know there's a system.
I'm starting to equate all you who think that whatever small percent of votes that get through of the small percent of cards that are verified, can possibly make a difference. Furthermore I'm a staunch democrat supported who believes anything shoved down my throat and, I resent the implication that the democrats are stupid enough to think that when they are so far ahead in an election(wrong again poison dog breath), that they need to cheat, and that they are stupid enough to think that they won't get caught or that enough will get through to even make it worth their while.
There. I fixed that statement for ya
-------------------- I'm not a redneck, I'm a Appalachian-American
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: johnm214]
#9096468 - 10/18/08 02:42 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: These are ballots that are submited in person generally, as you have to show up in person to register and vote all at once to my understanding.
but what checks and balances are in place to verify that each voter only has one ballot cast in only one precinct
Quote:
The date of the vote is always eleciton day, and it is cast when it is unsealed, inspected, and counted.
again it's still just articulation with an emphasis on the date
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
#9096470 - 10/18/08 02:44 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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You know what I was talking about. The opinion of the court re: registration and absentee ballot submission at the same time is legal and mandated for those who wish during certain periods of time.
And prisoner:
Quote:
Federal law mandates that a voter be registered for 30 days prior to voting, by simply waiting 30 days to count the ballots they believe this is the way around that, unfortunately when I cast a ballot for candidates I have in fact voted and violated that federal law
Do you have a source for this? What is the definition of voting for federal purposes?
And no, I really don't think they think its a way around anything. That law was around in various incarnations for a long time, probably much longer than the federal law.
What happened was their were two laws:
1 old law: You have the right to be an elector if you are registered for 30 days as of election day.
1 new law: You can submit an absentee ballot if you are registered by going to the county board during certain periods of time (also other ways, but irrelevant).
The legislature is stupid and passed the new law without thinking of how that would affect the old law. Since you have the right to be an elector if you are registered for more than 30 days as of eleciton day and as you are allowed to get an absentee ballot even if you've not been registered for 30 days, and you are allowed to vote absentee at the county board during certain periods (including such periods that are more than 30 days from eleciton day- the relevant period) this is where the silliness comes from.
But really... I honestly don't see the problem with this on a purely mechanical level. What difference does it make if the person registers and casts his ballot on the same day or registers and gets his ballot (what the republicans wanted) and just waited around till election day to cast it?
I don't get the difference.
The only difference I see is people could cast the absentee ballot on the same day in the first, and this might get folks who spur of the moment want to cast fraudulent votes or who are more confident about doing so if they believe the ballot casted is the same as a vote and thus aren't worried about getting caught. Someone want to help me out on the big concern?
Are absentee ballots not, in practice, checked to make sure the voter had registered? I can't imagine. And when I looked at the law a week or so ago it seemed like the ballots were to be verified against the registration sheet upon the unsealing on election day.
So do they not verify registrations the same if the person's submited a ballot the same day or what?
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The_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth
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Posts: 13,673
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: saved by zero]
#9096472 - 10/18/08 02:44 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Great way to debate his response, name call him and change what he said like its coming from him.
He must of struck a nerve huh?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
#9096474 - 10/18/08 02:44 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
supernovasky said: Kind of feels good to hear republicans scared of voter fraud for once.
But this is not voter fraud. It is registration fraud. There is NO evidence that anyone has used any of these registrations to actually vote. Furthermore, there is no evidence that this was perpetrated by democrats, instead of republicans trying to make democrat voter registration drives look bad.
The ruling was not that voter registration fraud would not be investigated. The ruling was that there would be no systematic purge.
As far as Obama wanting to prosecute, all power to him: There have been accusations against the group itself rather than the individual perpetrators. That IS libel. There is no evidence this was anything more than individuals on the lower end of the process trying to make money. Republicans want to throw out ACORN itself... once again using a hatchet, instead of a scapel.
You are utterly ignorant of what libel is. There is a nationwide pattern of fraud by one single group. Further, you are either refusing to follow my links or are just illiterate. I posted links to reports of illegal voters already voting in Ohio. New Mexico. Battleground states, as you mention over and over again in another thread about polling. Do I wish to throw out ACORN? You betcha.
--------------------
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
#9096484 - 10/18/08 02:47 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
supernovasky said: But this is not voter fraud. It is registration fraud. There is NO evidence that anyone has used any of these registrations to actually vote.
there's video evidence that people have registered and cast ballots on the same day, how many of these ballots are tied to fraudulent cards, if we disqualifiy the fraudulent cards and count the ballots cast in the week where the early voting was taking place, would the numbers match?
Quote:
Furthermore, there is no evidence that this was perpetrated by democrats, instead of republicans trying to make democrat voter registration drives look bad.
got any numbers on the number of republicans working for ACORN?
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
#9096489 - 10/18/08 02:48 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The_Red_Crayon said: Great way to debate his response, name call him and change what he said like its coming from him.
He must of struck a nerve huh?
I'd be more concerned if he had ever made a single valid point, like some of the other people in the political forum that I tend to disagree with, but still respect and try to learn from and revise opinions based on.
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9096505 - 10/18/08 02:51 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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More politics of convenience, much like your stand on voter fraud, which is, to put it kindly, unprincipled.
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AnonymousRabbit
Comrade
Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 8,993
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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.
-------------------- .
Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/19/22 01:06 AM)
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,867
Last seen: 5 months, 8 hours
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9096523 - 10/18/08 02:54 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:Now you're being paranoid. There is non-partisan, federal oversight of the process. So if there is something going on there, the administration will get to the bottom of it, and Ohio's electoral votes may even need to be withheld in the meantime.
Did you bother to read the link I posted where Ohio's trying to avoid that whole oversight process because it would be too much work.
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/10/17/ohio-secretary-state-files-extension-compliance-circuit-court-voter-fraud/
That's an up to date link. The court threw the whole thing out on a technicality. So now we're back to the Ohio Sec. of State throwing her hands up saying "GOLLY GOSH! There's so many of these, we might have a few legit voters in here and I'd hate to accidentally throw their vote out, so ALL the votes have to be counted! Even though we know a lot, probably most, are phony, it's the *only way to be sure we count all the legitimate votes!*"
-------------------- i finally got around to making a sig revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might grar.
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saved by zero
Stranger
Registered: 09/30/08
Posts: 359
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9096525 - 10/18/08 02:55 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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OK I agree. It was wrong of me to change his post. I'm sorry. The name calling goes both ways. I am, however, patiently waiting for his response to my query.
Do you really believe that voter fraud will not change the outcome of this election?
-------------------- I'm not a redneck, I'm a Appalachian-American
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
#9096538 - 10/18/08 02:57 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
supernovasky said:
Quote:
got any numbers on the number of republicans working for ACORN?
Apparently you have never heard of "False flag" operations.
like the one claiming that this is obviously a republican conspiracy?
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AnonymousRabbit
Comrade
Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 8,993
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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.
-------------------- .
Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/19/22 01:06 AM)
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
#9096562 - 10/18/08 03:02 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
supernovasky said: Yes. I really believe that voter fraud will not change the outcome of this election.
so there's no chance that it could drive more votes away from one candidate or the other, in a instance where it's found that ACORN had no complicity a few undecided wouldnt be swayed to vote obama as this is a republican smoke screen or vice versa?
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: saved by zero]
#9096579 - 10/18/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'll answer your question (I thought before that you were pressing me to answer if I was stupid or not).
Look at Mushmonkey's response. Now, since early voters have to sign up in person with ID as has been stated before in this thread, they have already gone through a screening process.
Now's the time for the fuzzy math that I know you're not going to like, but it's central to my argument, so here goes. Make up a number of votes that you think is going to get through the screening process. Now make up a number of legitimate votes that will be thrown out by additional screening. Most sane estimates would put the former at far fewer than the latter.
The former is a legal process, while the latter is probably not, unless mandated. Just because it was thrown out of court (adding legal backing to the argument), there are still options for oversight. Any CLEARLY fake names will still be thrown out, but it must be done within the bounds of the law. There are so many precedents for vulnerabilities that can arise from changing election law in the middle of the process. Which is the larger issue here?
I do hope that those who have broken the law (the workers), pay for their crimes with due process of the law. I DO NOT think that the investigations will show any wrongdoing on the part of the dems or ACORN the organization. Also, the GOP will be counting votes for years to come in the close elections most likely (through the appropriate channels), and the truth will come out, in months if needs be.
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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saved by zero
Stranger
Registered: 09/30/08
Posts: 359
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9096580 - 10/18/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Damn. This is like pulling eye teeth
-------------------- I'm not a redneck, I'm a Appalachian-American
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9096581 - 10/18/08 03:06 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said: Explain to me how this will win the election for the Democrats.
God damn it. Hundreds of posts on the subject, and none of you can explain even that. I've asked at least a couple times before.
The reason is that you can't. So put up, or shut the hell up.
IMO it’s the conspiracy to commit fraud that’s pissing me off.
In states like Ohio you could register (fraudulently) and vote (fraudulently) at the same time. That could help win the election for the Democrats or the Republicans!
Why does that not bother you?
and Ferris filling out fake voter registrations is fraud and a 14 year felony!
"Attorney General files felony voter registration charges"
LANSING - Attorney General Mike Cox today announced the arrest of Antonio Johnson, a former employee ACORN the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN), on forgery charges after he falsely submitted State of Michigan voter registration forms to the City of Jackson.
Johnson, a convicted felon who is currently being held in Jackson County on a parole violation, is charged with falsifying six State of Michigan voter registration applications. The registrations were submitted through ACORN to City of Jackson Clerk Lynn Fessel. Johnson filled out, signed and submitted the six applications, using two Jackson residents' names without their permission or knowledge, between May 20, 2008 and June 2, 2008.
Johnson, 23, was charged with six counts of forgery of a public document, in violation of MCL 750.248, and faces up to 14 years for each count.
http://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,1607,7-164--201714--,00.html
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Mushmonkey]
#9096585 - 10/18/08 03:07 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Also, "standing" isn't just a technicality. It has importance, and the GOP should have seen it coming from a mile away. I suspect a ploy here, they knew they would lose.
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
#9096588 - 10/18/08 03:07 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
supernovasky said:
Quote:
You are utterly ignorant of what libel is. There is a nationwide pattern of fraud by one single group. Further, you are either refusing to follow my links or are just illiterate. I posted links to reports of illegal voters already voting in Ohio. New Mexico. Battleground states, as you mention over and over again in another thread about polling. Do I wish to throw out ACORN? You betcha.
Were they registered by ACORN? These illegal voters that voted? Illegal voters vote every election. There are attempts to stop it, but there will never be a 100% foolproof method. Furthermore, you have not proven nationwide fraud by one single group. All you've shown were that only around 1% of ACORN ballots are fraudulent, and not perpetrated by ACORN organizers and leaders, but rather, low-rung individuals gaming the system.
It is ludicrous to keep making excuses for ACORN when there are endless abuses by multiple employees in several states. I suspect that 1% number is a total ass pull (i.e. from ACORN's website). I haven't shown that at all, by the way. In some places the questionable registrations run to 100% of new. But I have shown that there are fraudulent people voting in Ohio. And New Mexico. Regardless of who they vote for it is a crime.Quote:
Quote:
got any numbers on the number of republicans working for ACORN?
Apparently you have never heard of "False flag" operations.
Ever heard of an irrelevant argument? Do you think Republicans are infiltrating ACORN?
--------------------
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
#9096643 - 10/18/08 03:20 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hey Zappa how does ACORN ( non-partisan), and is funded by tax payer money endorse Obama for President?
"ACORN's political action committee endorsed Barack Obama for President. This is an important nod from a group that understands the urgent needs of Americans most hurt by this economy and how to organize for social and economic justice."
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters?bid=45&pid=289192
"I've been fighting alongside ACORN on issues you care about my entire career"
Barack Obama
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
Edited by lonestar2004 (10/18/08 03:48 PM)
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,867
Last seen: 5 months, 8 hours
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9096668 - 10/18/08 03:26 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:Look at Mushmonkey's response. Now, since early voters have to sign up in person with ID as has been stated before in this thread, they have already gone through a screening process.
DO they? Check Ohio's regs.
http://www.sos.state.oh.us/SOS/elections/voterInformation/bringid.aspx
All they need is the last 4 digits of a social security number. Certainly THAT isn't open to fraud!
Quote:
Ferris said: Also, "standing" isn't just a technicality. It has importance, and the GOP should have seen it coming from a mile away. I suspect a ploy here, they knew they would lose.
And if they did nothing, massive voter fraud would take place because nobody who had proper standing was going to stop it -- and was perhaps involved in allowing it to happen. They file the suit, it gets headlines, it draws a spotlight.
-------------------- i finally got around to making a sig revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might grar.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Mushmonkey]
#9096704 - 10/18/08 03:38 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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But if those records are matched with a name, then that should be enough.
Now, there are discrepancies between records, but the official you refer to isn't NOT going to do anything about them, she has just YET to do anything about them.
It is up to the states to comply with the appropriate voting regulations and for the courts to determine if their actions fulfill them.
What is NOT appropriate is for the Republican Party to dictate those terms. Do you see that?
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Posts: 81,741
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9096742 - 10/18/08 03:47 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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The Republican Party was not dictating. They just sued to have the law enforced. They were found to have no standing. Now somebody else will sue to have the law enforced.
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
Registered: 09/25/03
Posts: 10,867
Last seen: 5 months, 8 hours
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9096751 - 10/18/08 03:50 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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They have 2 weeks to do something with them.
There's hundreds of thousands of these newly-registered voters and their votes to verify.
In 2 weeks? nothing's been done yet?
2 weeks from now they'll be half-done, and have to count them all -- because golly gosh, even though it's months until the next president would be sworn in, we have to have our results IMMEDIATELY!
-------------------- i finally got around to making a sig revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might grar.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
#9096763 - 10/18/08 03:52 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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The votes are not technically cast until election day. Therefore, they cannot be considered to be out of complyment until after that time, when the votes are actually counted.
They are dictating a timeline. The officer has asked for suggested guidelines, which implies that she intends to comply, but not until she knows she can do it delicately (ie not repeat Florida).
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 12 years, 11 months
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
#9096780 - 10/18/08 03:57 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
supernovasky said: Kind of feels good to hear republicans scared of voter fraud for once.
But this is not voter fraud. It is registration fraud. There is NO evidence that anyone has used any of these registrations to actually vote. Furthermore, there is no evidence that this was perpetrated by democrats, instead of republicans trying to make democrat voter registration drives look bad.
The ruling was not that voter registration fraud would not be investigated. The ruling was that there would be no systematic purge.
As far as Obama wanting to prosecute, all power to him: There have been accusations against the group itself rather than the individual perpetrators. That IS libel. There is no evidence this was anything more than individuals on the lower end of the process trying to make money. Republicans want to throw out ACORN itself... once again using a hatchet, instead of a scapel.
IMO There should be another special prosecutor appointed to investigate whether Obama's appointment of a special prosecutor to investigate the prosecutors investigating ACORN was politically motivated!
-------------------- America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure" We have "reckless fiscal policies" America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better Barack Obama
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: lonestar2004]
#9096784 - 10/18/08 03:59 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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-------------------- Discuss Politics
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: AnonymousRabbit]
#9097119 - 10/18/08 05:50 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
There are attempts to stop it, but there will never be a 100% foolproof method.
There already are. Unfortunately, these methods are vehemently opposed by Democrats. Gee.... I wonder why that is?
Quote:
All you've shown were that only around 1% of ACORN ballots are fraudulent,
You haven't been following this whole Brunner thing, have you? That alone - ignore all the other tens of thousands reported in other states, let's just look at the number of ones Brunner claims must be let stand - is 200,000. Not 2,000, not 20,000, but 200,000. That's twenty per cent of a million, dewd.
Phred
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Phred]
#9097186 - 10/18/08 06:08 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Let's do math. Based on the last election, we can assume that at least 6 million people will vote in Ohio this election. Let's take ACORN's figure for now and say that 1%, or 2,000 of those votes are fraudulent.
That's 0.033% or one in three thousand votes. Even if it's one in ten of those votes, which would be insane, then it would only account for a third of a percent.
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
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Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9097203 - 10/18/08 06:13 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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George W. Bush became America's forty-third president because he had 538 more votes in Florida than Al Gore.
Five hundred and thirty-eight.
Phred
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saved by zero
Stranger
Registered: 09/30/08
Posts: 359
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9097218 - 10/18/08 06:17 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said: Let's do math. Based on the last election, we can assume that at least 6 million people will vote in Ohio this election. Let's take ACORN's figure for now and say that 1%, or 2,000 of those votes are fraudulent.
That's 0.033% or one in three thousand votes. Even if it's one in ten of those votes, which would be insane, then it would only account for a third of a percent.
Now why in the world would anyone accept ACORN's figure? Now, or even in the future. They have proven to be completely unreliable and cetainly biased.
-------------------- I'm not a redneck, I'm a Appalachian-American
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thedefone
deus ex machina
Registered: 10/06/07
Posts: 1,883
Loc: Gondwana
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Phred]
#9097223 - 10/18/08 06:20 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Commission's extensive analysis of statistical data reveals that African Americans were disproportionately purged from the voter roles due to spoiled ballots rendered by undercounts and overcounts. The failure to incorporate Motor Voter registrants and the notorious, state-sponsored, erroneous purging procedures significantly contributed to the dilution of the African American vote.
The Commission also found that the lack of uniformity and absence of clear guidance from top state officials in the allocation of election-day resources, including voter education funds and effective poll worker training contributed to the incidence of spoiled ballots.
The Commission's hearings spotlighted and this report highlights the harsh reality that despite the closeness of the election, it was widespread voter disenfranchisement and not the dead-heat contest that was the extraordinary feature of the Florida election.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/transcripts/ccrdraft060401.htm
-------------------- I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: saved by zero]
#9097227 - 10/18/08 06:21 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Do you have an alternative figure? As far as I can see, they appear to be cooperating fully.
A risk/reward analysis of the situation would show that they're money and time would be much better spent, say filing suits in the court to make last minute changes to election procedure.
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Phred]
#9097235 - 10/18/08 06:27 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said: George W. Bush became America's forty-third president because he had 538 more votes in Florida than Al Gore.
Five hundred and thirty-eight.
I acknowledge that, but I'm thinking that if any fake votes were cast and when they are caught, that they will show to be in the dozens. If it's actually that close, with all this controversy, they will be dragging this out. I hope it doesn't come to that to where Obama either wins by 1-3% or more, or he just plain loses Ohio, but wins say, only Florida out of the swing states, where he's further ahead by Ohio, and wins the election anyways.
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9097289 - 10/18/08 06:43 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said: But if those records are matched with a name, then that should be enough.
how do you accurately match 4 digits to one of 5 million people
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9097387 - 10/18/08 07:08 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Databases. The name should match the number, then you can't use that number again, so the person can't vote twice. Also, since it's in-person, the same person would have to vote each time in a different location, or risk a felony for that second vote.
I'm not saying the system is perfect or that I even support it, but it doesn't have anywhere near enough room for the kind of massive conspiracy some of the people in this thread would lead others to believe is happening.
Does that 200,000 number reflect the number of people that used a social only to vote? I'd be interested in an actual breakdown if one is available. Photo IDs are much more reliable, so I'm not going to give much credence to any argument that involves them.
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9097421 - 10/18/08 07:19 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said: Databases. The name should match the number, then you can't use that number again, so the person can't vote twice. Also, since it's in-person, the same person would have to vote each time in a different location, or risk a felony for that second vote.
unfortunately it's not really that simple, once you hit 10,000 the numbers would have to roll over, sure it's not likely that 2 people would have the same last 4 digits of the same SSN in a given voting precinct but I'm sure it will happen at least once and then someone is refused the right to vote also what's to stop someone from hitting several precincts using just the limited bit of info they require
this makes me reconsider voter IDs, swipe it through the scanner, it pulls you from the list of people that havent voted yet, it's no different than a drivers license only you dont have to use it but once every election
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9097458 - 10/18/08 07:30 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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There are better systems available for sure.
The actual issue here of course is when it gets down to it, when you factor in risk/reward preventing people from voting illegally (felony, 1 vote/10 bucks) versus diluting effect the number of people that are no longer prevented from voting (which is significant, and unfortunately laziness wasn't mentioned in the constitution), you see that the numbers probably more accurately reflect the views of the population.
It's still a crime when you get caught, it's still a crime to look the other way. I know this method favors Democrats, but if you ignore that for a second, which method sounds like a more perfect reflection of the concept of democracy?
My idea would be instead of the minor burden of making people sign up for identification, that we could use a form of biometrics, that would not be accessible to any other level of government of course. There will always be a better mousetrap, but just look at how so many complains about electronic voter machines even though I'd guess that they're way more secure than anything that can be done on paper.
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Mushmonkey
shiftlesslayabout
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9097562 - 10/18/08 08:02 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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It'd be much easier if we just made everyone vote on one certain day. If you're filing an absentee ballot, you ought be made to jump through more hoops to verify you are who you say and that you only will vote that one time -- you know before hand that you won't make it to the polls, therefor you should have enough time to jump through the hoops.
after that? screw it, ink everyone's finger on election day.
no-fault absentee ballots are bullshit and only favor lazy people who probably aren't informed of anything anyway. and the (truthful) assertions that they favor democrats heavily makes me say "lol" and receive strange looks for saying it.
-------------------- i finally got around to making a sig revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might grar.
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Phred
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9097611 - 10/18/08 08:13 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
I acknowledge that, but I'm thinking that if any fake votes were cast and when they are caught, that they will show to be in the dozens.
You base this speculation on....... what, exactly?
Why are you an apologist for voting fraud?
Phred
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Phred]
#9097644 - 10/18/08 08:18 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I've made it pretty clear that I know its against the law and that I think that any perpetrating it should be sentenced harshly under the law (since heavy sentencing is both just and a good deterrent under these circumstances). I'm just giving counter-speculation to demonstrate that I think that is those who are throwing out numbers like 200,000 that are the ones that are being unreasonable in their interpretation and extrapolation from the facts given.
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9097654 - 10/18/08 08:20 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'd be interested to see what motives will come to light about this incident during the primaries in New Mexico (ie how malignant were their intentions)
Please note that I'm in the process of getting very drunk, so if you want serious replies from this point forward, you might have to compromise or wait till tomorrow morning. Fair warning
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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Phred
Fred's son
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9097680 - 10/18/08 08:24 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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LOL. Look, the one "throwing out numbers" such as 200,000 is Brunner herself! Why do you never take the time to inform yourself about these subjects before jumping in with both feet? There are literally hundreds of thousands of bogus registrations out there.
You don't see it as a problem. I'm curious as to why you don't think voting fraud is a problem. Why are you going to such enormous effort to try and prove a patent absurdity - that voting fraud is nothing to worry about.
Phred
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Phred]
#9097716 - 10/18/08 08:31 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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200k isn't the number of fraudulent voters... it's the number of ballots that don't pass the initial check. Most of them are most likely valid cards. I assure you that I'm well informed, I just don't subscribe to the same conservative BS that assumes the worst case scenario.
Also, I believe that my exercise in actual math earlier already demonstrated that I was aware of the numbers involved.
By the way, it appears that the Republicans have just filed a new lawsuit. I'm curious as to how they have solved the issue of standing in this one.
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/10/gop_files_new_lawsuit_against.html
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Phred
Fred's son
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9097742 - 10/18/08 08:35 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Most of them are most likely valid cards.
Sure they are. Just like the first 2100 out of 2100 checked by Indiana elections people were valid - NOT!
Give it up and get drunk. See you tomorrow.
Phred
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Phred]
#9097749 - 10/18/08 08:36 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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buenas noches
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saved by zero
Stranger
Registered: 09/30/08
Posts: 359
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9098976 - 10/19/08 06:31 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Recent Fraud
State Year Details AR 1998 A contractor with ACORN-affiliated Project Vote was arrested for falsifying about 400 voter registration cards.
CO 2004 An ACORN employee admitted to forging signatures and registering three of her friends to vote 40 times. 2005 Two ex-ACORN employees were convicted in Denver of perjury for submitting false voter registrations.
FL 2004 A Florida Department of Law Enforcement spokesman said ACORN was %u201Csingled out%u201D among suspected voter registration groups for a 2004 wage initiative because it was %u201Cthe common thread%u201D in the agency%u2019s fraud investigations.
MI 2004 The Detroit Free Press reported that %u201Coverzealous or unscrupulous campaign workers in several Michigan counties are under investigation for voter-registration fraud, suspected of attempting to register nonexistent people or forging applications for already-registered voters.%u201D ACORN-affiliate Project Vote was one of two groups suspected of turning in the documents.
MO 2007 Four ACORN employees were indicted in Kansas City for charges including identity theft and filing false registrations during the 2006 election. 2006 Eight ACORN employees in St. Louis were indicted on federal election fraud charges. Each of the eight faces up to five years in prison for forging signatures and submitting false information. 2003 Of 5,379 voter registration cards ACORN submitted in St. Louis, only 2,013 of those appeared to be valid. At least 1,000 are believed to be attempts to register voters illegally.
NC 2004 North Carolina officials investigated ACORN for submitting fake voter registration cards.
NM 2005 Four ACORN employees submitted as many as 3,000 potentially fraudulent signatures on the group%u2019s Albuquerque ballot initiative. A local sheriff added: %u201CIt%u2019s safe to say the forgery was widespread.%u201D 2004 An ACORN employee registered a 13-year-old boy to vote. Citing this and other examples, New Mexico State Representative Joe Thompson stated that ACORN was %u201Cmanufacturing voters%u201D throughout New Mexico.
OH 2007 A man in Reynoldsburg was indicted on two felony counts of illegal voting and false registration, after being registered by ACORN to vote in two separate counties. 2004 A grand jury indicted a Columbus ACORN worker for submitting a false signature and false voter registration form. In Franklin County, two ACORN workers submitted what the director of the board of election supervisors called %u201Cblatantly false%u201D forms. In Cuyahoga County, ACORN and its affiliate Project Vote submitted registration cards that had the highest rate of errors for any voter registration group.
MN 2004 During a traffic stop, police found more than 300 voter registration cards in the trunk of a former ACORN employee, who had violated a legal requirements that registration cards be submitted to the Secretary of State within 10 days of being filled out and signed.
PA 2008 An ACORN employee in West Reading, PA, was sentenced to up to 23 months in prison for identity theft and tampering with records. A second ACORN worker pleaded not guilty to the same charges and is free on $10,000 bail. 2004 Reading%u2019s Director of Elections received calls from numerous individuals complaining that ACORN employees deliberately put inaccurate information on their voter registration forms. The Berks County director of elections said voter fraud was %u201Cabsolutely out of hand,%u201D and added: %u201CNot only do we have unintentional duplication of voter registration but we have blatant duplicate voter registrations.%u201D The Berks County deputy director of elections added that ACORN was under investigation by the Department of Justice.
TX 2004 ACORN turned in the voter registration form of David Young, who told reporters %u201CThe signature is not my signature. It%u2019s not even close.%u201D His social security number and date of birth were also incorrect.
VA 2005 In 2005, the Virginia State Board of Elections admonished Project Vote and ACORN for turning in a significant number of faulty voter registrations. An audit revealed that 83% of sampled registrations that were rejected for carrying false or questionable information were submitted by Project Vote. Many of these registrations carried social security numbers that exist for other people, listed non-existent or commercial addresses, or were for convicted felons in violation of state and federal election law.
In a letter to ACORN, the State Board of Elections reported that 56% of the voter registration applications ACORN turned in were ineligible. Further, a full 35% were not submitted in a timely manner, as required by law. The State Board of Elections also commented on what appeared to be evidence of intentional voter fraud. "Additionally,%u201D they wrote, %u201Cinformation appears to have been altered on some applications where information given by the applicant in one color ink has been scratched through and re-entered in another color ink. Any alteration of a voter registration application is a Class 5 Felony in accordance with § 24.2-1009 of the Code of Virginia."
WA 2007 Three ACORN employees pleaded guilty, and four more were charged, in the worst case of voter registration fraud in Washington state history. More than 2,000 fraudulent voter registration cards were submitted by the group during a voter registration drive.
WI 2004 The district attorney%u2019s office investigated seven voter registration applications Project Vote employees filed in the names of people who said the group never contacted them. Former Project Vote employee Robert Marquise Blakely told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel that he had not met with any of the people whose voter registration applications he signed, %u201Can apparent violation of state law,%u201D according to the paper.
www.rottenacorn.com/activityMap.html
-------------------- I'm not a redneck, I'm a Appalachian-American
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: saved by zero]
#9099705 - 10/19/08 11:55 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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I thought this was a nice clip from factcheck ACORN article explaining how common voter fraud actually is.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/acorn_accusations.html
Quote:
How Common Is Fraud?
Election fraud does exist, but hasn't been shown to be widespread. The New York Times reported in 2007 that a five-year crackdown on such fraud by the Bush administration's Justice Department had produced 70 convictions at the federal level, including 40 campaign workers or government workers convicted of vote-buying, intimidation or ballot forgery, and 23 cases of multiple voting or voting by ineligible voters. But the Times described these as unconnected incidents and said the Justice Department had turned up no evidence of "any organized effort to skew federal elections."
Bush administration officials have pushed hard to find such evidence, too hard in one case, according to an investigation by the Department of Justice's internal watchdogs, the Office of the Inspector General (OIG) and Office of Professional Responsibility (OPR). Their report into the firing of nine United States attorneys concluded that the "real reason" for the firing of New Mexico's U.S. Attorney David Iglesias was "complaints about Iglesias’s handling of voter fraud and public corruption matters." The complaints included gripes by state Republican Party officials who believed that widespread fraud by Democrats had prevented George Bush from winning the state in the 2000 presidential election. Iglesias launched a task force that worked with the FBI but found that "there was insufficient evidence in any of the cases the Task Force reviewed to support criminal prosecution by the [U.S. Attorney's Office] or state authorities," according to the report of the OIG and OPR. These included cases involving ACORN workers. Republicans charged that Iglesias was showing insufficient rigor in prosecuting the cases.
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saved by zero
Stranger
Registered: 09/30/08
Posts: 359
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9099777 - 10/19/08 12:16 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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The article cited above is very damning to Obama.
At least once he's guilty of lying about his association with ACORN and in another instance the "oversight" by campaign officials is just ludicrous.
How gullible does the AP think we are?
Thanks for that link.
-------------------- I'm not a redneck, I'm a Appalachian-American
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!
Registered: 01/22/03
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9100001 - 10/19/08 01:07 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said: I thought this was a nice clip from factcheck ACORN article explaining how common voter fraud actually is.
who runs FactCheck.Org? wasnt that Annenberg, lets see, who has ties with Annenberg... well there's a known terrorist and then some presidential candidate that also has ties to some group called ACORN... yep... cant see any reason there would be bias on the Annenberg Political Fact Check site
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9100045 - 10/19/08 01:18 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ya, they slam Obama all the time on there because they think it will help his campaign. And PBS is just propoganda
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9100049 - 10/19/08 01:20 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Planet Earth and The Western Tradition are two of my favorite series on television
* The Africans (filmed in 16 African countries) * Against All Odds: Inside Statistics * Algebra: In Simplest Terms * American Cinema * American Passages: A Literary Survey * Art of the Western World (visual/fine arts) * The Brain: Teaching Modules * Bridging World History * A Biography of America * The Constitution: That Delicate Balance * Death: A Personal Understanding * Discovering Psychology: Updated Edition * Earth Revealed (geology) * Economics U$A * English Composition: Writing for an Audience * Ethics in America * Ethics in America II * Exploring the World of Music * Growing Old in a New Age * Human Geography: People, Places, and Change (economic and cultural geography) * Inside the Global Economy * Journey North (wildlife migration) * Literary Visions (literary analysis) * Math for All and Math for All—Plus (math for families of elementary school students, in English and Spanish) * The Mechanical Universe…and Beyond (physics) * The Mind: Teaching Modules (cognitive science) * News Writing * Out of the Past (archaeology and anthropology) * Planet Earth (Earth science and astronomy) * The Power of Place: Geography for the 21st Century * Reactions in Chemistry * Rural Communities: Legacy & Change * Seasons of Life (lifespan psychology) * Signature: Contemporary Writers (series featuring authors from the American South) * Unseen Life on Earth: An Introduction to Microbiology * Voices & Visions (American poetry) * The Western Tradition (history of Western civilization) * The World of Abnormal Psychology * A World of Art: Works in Progress (art appreciation) * The World of Chemistry
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9100070 - 10/19/08 01:30 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said: I'll answer your question (I thought before that you were pressing me to answer if I was stupid or not).
Look at Mushmonkey's response. Now, since early voters have to sign up in person with ID as has been stated before in this thread, they have already gone through a screening process.
yes, that ID
In ohio, an electric bill counts. We've been over this before.
And what are these 'databases' you refer to that we should check voters with? After florida 2000 I think you should be careful throwing out that bullshit.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: johnm214]
#9100123 - 10/19/08 01:49 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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The answer was off the cuff and not meant to be complete. It IS an initial screen, so that's true. They do use databases to screen again, do they not? So that's probably true.
So what's your deal with me? I was just answering a question to the best of my knowledge.
Here's 10 seconds worth of research on databases, thanks to Google news search:
Quote:
On Friday, the U.S. Supreme Court told Ohio's Republican Party it was not entitled to a list of 200,000-plus Ohioans whose voter registration information did not match Social Security and state drivers' license databases.
So it seems that unless you thought I was making an opinion of the veracity of the databases, which would be unwarranted, you should get off my case. I'd have been more complete if he weren't being a dick by the way.
/lack of civility
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
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Loc: Americas
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9100161 - 10/19/08 02:02 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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I wasn't saying you were bullshit, I was saying the databases are bullshit. There's no law you must have one address and there's no reason to deny someone voting privledges just cuz various databases don't agree- that's what I mean.
You ever ordered a choicepoint or other database consumer report? You won't believe the bullshit you'll find.
And the self-reported addresses don't need to be accurate for voting purposes (social security, et cet).
These should not be used to disqualify but to investigate.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: johnm214]
#9100224 - 10/19/08 02:21 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ah, ok, well answered.
At this point, I want to reiterate that there's no such thing as a perfect voting system. The system that prevents the least amount of people from voting compared to the percentage of illegal votes, is the best system. If anyone here has an opinion of a system other than this ratio to use as a guideline in forming processes and regulations, then I'd like to hear your rational.
Note that I assume in this model that the party of voters is 100% irrelevant when obtaining or losing voters in the numerator and that I assume that each party shares an equal amount of election fraud in the denominator. The latter assumption may be questionable, but I don't see how we can make any other assumption, since factoring that in would likely have legal repercussions.
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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saved by zero
Stranger
Registered: 09/30/08
Posts: 359
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9101002 - 10/19/08 05:55 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said: The answer was off the cuff and not meant to be complete. It IS an initial screen, so that's true. They do use databases to screen again, do they not? So that's probably true.
So what's your deal with me? I was just answering a question to the best of my knowledge.
Here's 10 seconds worth of research on databases, thanks to Google news search:
Quote:
On Friday, the U.S. Supreme Court told Ohio's Republican Party it was not entitled to a list of 200,000-plus Ohioans whose voter registration information did not match Social Security and state drivers' license databases.
So it seems that unless you thought I was making an opinion of the veracity of the databases, which would be unwarranted, you should get off my case. I'd have been more complete if he weren't being a dick by the way.
/lack of civility
Quote:
Ferris said: I'll answer your question (I thought before that you were pressing me to answer if I was stupid or not).
I'm gonna call you out bullshitter on this one. Typical liberal dodge the answer or skew it to fit your premise. You knew damn well what question I was asking you to answer.....as if I'd expect an answer to whether or not you were stupid???? My question to you was to whether or not you believed what you, yourself, wrote.
Now who's being a dick?......Someone calls you out and your response is you answered in the heat of the moment? I pm'ed you and apologized for changing your post(although in all fairness my changes to your post were in red)and you accepted my apology saying you weren't here to bash anyone. Now, who's bashing? You, sir, are the dick, now.
-------------------- I'm not a redneck, I'm a Appalachian-American
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: saved by zero]
#9101025 - 10/19/08 06:00 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Typical liberal dodge the answer or skew it to fit your premise.
I really hope you know how silly that sounds (and is). Dodging is not inherent by either liberals or conservatives, regardless of what sort of nonsensical rhetoric you feel like you need to believe.
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saved by zero
Stranger
Registered: 09/30/08
Posts: 359
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Redstorm]
#9101057 - 10/19/08 06:09 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
Typical liberal dodge the answer or skew it to fit your premise.
I really hope you know how silly that sounds (and is). Dodging is not inherent by either liberals or conservatives, regardless of what sort of nonsensical rhetoric you feel like you need to believe.
I meant dodge the question. Anyway, he has liberal views AND he dodged the question.
He dodged/didn't answer the question I asked by implying that he thought my query was to whether or not I thought he was stupid. THAT is my point. Read the post.
-------------------- I'm not a redneck, I'm a Appalachian-American
Edited by saved by zero (10/19/08 06:13 PM)
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: saved by zero]
#9101083 - 10/19/08 06:19 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ok, let's get down to this. I just went back ~60 posts and found you're original question for me, which was whether I think that these events of voter registration fraud will effect this election.
I've supplied simple mathematical models predicting the effect, philosophical theories on which methods are most democratic. I've begun to analyze the initial and secondary screening processes which have not yet even reached a point where they can be held to scrutiny under the law.
In short, the answer is no, I don't think that it will effect the election. But I don't deal with absolutes based on partisan politics. I deal with probabilities, with motives. I'm trying to guess what's really happening, and navigate what I think should be happening.
Let's move on to some of these subjects that I've brought up that I don't feel have been responded to in full.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: saved by zero]
#9101093 - 10/19/08 06:22 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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I did read your post. You said it was a "typical liberal dodge" meaning that it is something common or inherent in liberals.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9101100 - 10/19/08 06:23 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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I do believe however that there is a much greater chance for the partisan response to these events to skew the election based on exaggerated claims. I give slack to individuals who seriously don't want to see a single vote cast that doesn't reflect reality, but I urge them to remember that these things happen in democracies, and that our system is still the most stable of them all.
-------------------- Discuss Politics
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
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Loc: Americas
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9101112 - 10/19/08 06:27 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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not true man, cuz they're affecting the polls.
I got called yesterday and they asked who I was voting for. But I told them I had 3,000 registrations in a few counties here, so they said "oh, ok, we'll count you 3,000 times then"
So yeah... I am everyone voting for Bob Barr in ohio
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: johnm214]
#9101125 - 10/19/08 06:29 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Do you mean that they effect public opinion or are you being sarcastic and saying that polls model their likelies after bad voter cards
tsk tsk
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
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Loc: Americas
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9101199 - 10/19/08 06:45 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well they do affect public opinion (cuz people don't want to "throw their vote away'- whatever that bullshit means) but I wasn't making that statement.
Just being an ass- not trying to make a point.
I doubt the pollsters count you multiple times if you tell them you're registered and will vote 30 times or so, lol.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9101211 - 10/19/08 06:47 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said: Ya, they slam Obama all the time on there because they think it will help his campaign.
they give a distorted view of whats fact and whats not, Obamas vote and statements regarding 'sex ed for kindergartners', is a prime example
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9101286 - 10/19/08 07:04 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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I really don't know how you can get more balanced than factcheck.org
Here's the main article on the kindergarten deal:
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/off_base_on_sex_ed.html
It seems to me that they went through a lot of effort to make this one and source it. I don't see where you could say that they were stretching the truth or hiding any factual information.
Here's an excerpt from a short laundry list of lies from both candidates. If you go to it, you can see that several are in fact from Obama.
Quote:
McCain released an ad claiming that Obama's "one accomplishment" in education was "legislation to teach 'comprehensive sex education' to kindergarteners." That's false. The bill was hardly Obama's accomplishment as he was not even a cosponsor, and in any case, the bill didn't make it out of the state Senate.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/the_whoppers_of_2008.html
If you don't think that they are even. Well, they probably aren't. From an outsider perspective, you can say that McCain has the harder side to stump for because there are more steps in his approach to get the money from the government back to the people. Instead of explaining his viewpoint, since politicians have to fight with limited attention spans, it's just easier to distort the truth. Politicians on both sides of the aisle face this problem, but Republicans are just faces with it more often.
/end GOP apologeticism
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Phred
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9101522 - 10/19/08 07:50 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Factcheck.org is partisan and useless, and they get their "facts" wrong as well.
Phred
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Phred]
#9101551 - 10/19/08 07:58 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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The Annenburgs donated to California Republicans.
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/04/nonpartisan-factcheckorg-not-q.php
Show me an internet group more non-partisan than they are.
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Phred
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9101562 - 10/19/08 08:00 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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What's your point?
No matter who the Annenbergs donated to, the people who actually write the stuff published at factcheck.org are useless and partisan.
Phred
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Phred]
#9101569 - 10/19/08 08:02 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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You can't back that up. You just don't like that they disseminate counterclaims to the bs that is constantly coming from the right. They mostly stick to the absolutely ludicrous stuff that only a blind and deaf man would argue against.
I'm not saying they're perfect, but in this world, they are as non-partisan as it comes.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9101578 - 10/19/08 08:03 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Maybe you'd rather believe non-partisan critics of factcheck like Michelle Malkin
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Phred
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9101589 - 10/19/08 08:05 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Of course I can back it up. Go to Factcheck and see how badly they fucked up their "fact-checking" of the Biden-Palin debate. Then get back to us with your apology in hand.
Phred
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Phred]
#9101621 - 10/19/08 08:11 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_biden-palin_debate.html
The summary looks fine so far. While I'm reading the fuller analysis, maybe you can tell me which part in particular shows that they are a partisan group? And focus on the partisan part of it, because the goal of the Annenburg foundation is to make information accessible. It's not meant to be written in legalese.
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Redstorm
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Phred]
#9101627 - 10/19/08 08:13 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said: Of course I can back it up. Go to Factcheck and see how badly they fucked up their "fact-checking" of the Biden-Palin debate. Then get back to us with your apology in hand.
Phred
Seriously Ferris, don't you know you should be doing Phred's work to prove his own point for him?
Gosh.
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Ferris
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Redstorm]
#9101634 - 10/19/08 08:15 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Maybe they fall under the equal time rule of the radio act, and I just wasn't aware.
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Ferris
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9101809 - 10/19/08 08:55 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Phred
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9101889 - 10/19/08 09:20 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
The summary looks fine so far.
It does, does it? Do you see two dozen errors/lies on Biden's part? Because he made more than that. Including the two most blatant, obvious, egregious ones that anyone with even a tiny sliver of knowledge of foreign affairs (Biden's supposed area of expertise) knew as soon as poor ole Slow Joe let them slip were complete and utter bullshit - that the US kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon and that the US spends more every three weeks in Iraq than it has spent on the Afghanistan conflict in the last seven years.
Please cut and paste Factcheck's analyses of these two howlers. Thank you.
Phred
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9101910 - 10/19/08 09:26 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said: I really don't know how you can get more balanced than factcheck.org
did obama vote for a piece of legislation talking about teaching sex education to kindergartners? that answer would be yes, please show us what Obamas views on age appropriate sex education for kindergartners is
oh wait... here we go
Quote:
But it mandated the instruction be "age-appropriate" for kindergarteners when addressing topics such as sexually transmitted diseases. The bill also would have granted parents the opportunity to remove their children from the class without question:
so when you start talking about STD with kids, at what point does it start, where does it finish. I know that having a kid in kindergarten means I have a lot of questions I need to answer, as I answer one question I have another being asked regarding the question I just asked, at what point does it become inappropriate for that 5yo age group
as for removing them from the class, parents have always had that option, permissions slips had to be signed for me to have the class when I was in school but now instead of a slip allowing them to take the class, they have to have one that keeps them from it, seems like there may be communication failures along the way and parents may not hear about it until their kids get him that night
so while they're whitewashing it to make it less damaging for obama it doesnt change the fact that he did in fact vote on the bill, the bill did in fact say comprehensive sex education, again, what's age appropriate because as we all know, the intent isnt always what's followed and the bill outlines nothing 'comprehensive' for age appropriate
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Ferris
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9101928 - 10/19/08 09:33 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm not going to lecture you on the English language, but you can't take his policy and boil it down to three words.
I think they are pretty fair about actually explaining the situation, and from there you can make a decision. But the "facts" aren't "kindergarten sex education." That's what we call misleading back in the real world.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Phred]
#9101930 - 10/19/08 09:35 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said: Of course I can back it up. Go to Factcheck and see how badly they fucked up their "fact-checking" of the Biden-Palin debate. Then get back to us with your apology in hand.
I found it, I found it
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Ferris
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Phred]
#9101934 - 10/19/08 09:36 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's not meant to be a full list. I can only assume that they itemized the most important policies and central key points. It seems to me that this was more of a slip that not many people probably noticed. You can always send them an email you know.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9102535 - 10/20/08 12:08 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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I removed our derailment to a new thread
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johnm214
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Phred]
#9102641 - 10/20/08 12:57 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
Quote:
The summary looks fine so far.
It does, does it? Do you see two dozen errors/lies on Biden's part? Because he made more than that. Including the two most blatant, obvious, egregious ones that anyone with even a tiny sliver of knowledge of foreign affairs (Biden's supposed area of expertise) knew as soon as poor ole Slow Joe let them slip were complete and utter bullshit - that the US kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon and that the US spends more every three weeks in Iraq than it has spent on the Afghanistan conflict in the last seven years.
Please cut and paste Factcheck's analyses of these two howlers. Thank you.
Phred
That's nice, but this doesn't really show the kind of bias I would care about from factcheck when using them. I'm interested in what they do write, not what they don't.
I presume, since you've been saying so for awhile, you've got more than this on factcheck? What kinds of things have they said that demonstrate bias? I'm just curious cuz the above doesn't seem to have any bearing on the liklihood that what they did write, rather than didn't, would be wrong.
This is the kind of "rush libaugh/Oreily" bias that you see quite a few places, where folks don't say things per se wrong or biased, they omit things which results in their product as a whole being biased... Though its dangerous in that it goes unnoticed probably more often, its hard to call this a positive fraud, which was what I thought you were alleging.
So what positive statements has factcheck made that are actually biased? What are some of the most egregious examples?
And again, your constant poisoning of the well is tiring. With your "everyone is biased against me and its your burden to show that they aren't" mindset you do this constantly rather than simply showing why the claim, nomatter who made it, is wrong.
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Redstorm
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: johnm214]
#9103114 - 10/20/08 07:57 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Not to mention both of those examples are actually on factcheck.
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Phred
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: johnm214]
#9103976 - 10/20/08 12:16 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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johnm214 writes:
Quote:
That's nice, but this doesn't really show the kind of bias I would care about from factcheck when using them. I'm interested in what they do write, not what they don't.
You and I have had this conversation before, and you have a fundamental and apparently irremediable blindspot on this question of bias. Often what matters the most in determining bias is in noting not what is said, but what is not said. See my famous Robert Jernigan example in the archives.
If an organization is supposedly dedicated to correcting factual errors, but then ignores most of the factual errors made by one side, that is bias.
There was a thread here that I know for a fact you have seen, detailing Biden's "errors" (I'm being kind in my phrasing here) in the Vice Presidential debate. At the time I abandoned the thread, the count for Biden was 28. That's twenty-eight. Knocking a few of those off for maybe being variations on the same theme, or maybe honest differences in opinion rather than outright factual errors, that still leaves around two dozen. How many of them does Factcheck even address?
As for them being wrong in the positive sense, I suggest your review that thread. A lot of what they claim to be "errors" in what Palin said are not errors at all. This was addressed in detail in that thread, I'm not going to type it all again, but a few hints would be that Palin did note Obama's comments on troops in Afghanistan "just bombing villages" and the fact that Obama's tax plans will increase taxes on people making just 42,000 a year. Factcheck fucked up both of those. They screwed up others too, as a review of the post-debate thread will show. It was a thread started by me and the title was something like "That was fast" or "that was quick".
Phred
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Phred
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Redstorm]
#9103986 - 10/20/08 12:18 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Please cut and paste Factcheck's analyses of these two howlers. Thank you.
They are? Not on the page dedicated to the post-VP-debate analysis, they aren't. I extend to you the same invitation I extended to Ferris:
"Please cut and paste Factcheck's analyses of these two howlers. Thank you." Include the URL to the cut and paste as well, please.
Phred
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Ferris
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Phred]
#9103993 - 10/20/08 12:22 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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It would seem to me that if you want such factual information as "obama will raise taxes on those earning 42,000 a year," then you should stay away from anything resembling non-biased information.
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Ferris
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Phred]
#9104019 - 10/20/08 12:28 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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I already provided a link to one of them.
http://wire.factcheck.org/2008/10/04/biden-on-hezbollah-and-other-late-debate-goodies/
Quote:
In today’s Washington Post, Michael Dobbs, a.k.a. The Fact Checker, writes about a few more stumbles from the debate, including a couple items that we didn’t have in our story on Friday.
Dobbs, a former diplomatic reporter, says Sen. Joe Biden was wrong when he said the U.S. and France “kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon.” He was correct in saying that there was talk of sending NATO forces to the country in 2006. Dobbs also cites Biden’s invitation to voters to “go down Union Street with me in Wilmington [Delaware] or go to ‘Katie’s Restaurant.’ ” That restaurant closed in the 1980s and has been replaced by a chain. The Wilmington News Journal wrote about the error, as well.
Dobbs also says Gov. Sarah Palin “is exaggerating her role” in an effort in Alaska to divest from companies with business dealings with Sudan. In the debate, she said, “When I and others in the legislature found out we had some millions of dollars in Sudan, we called for divestment through legislation of those dollars to make sure we weren’t doing anything that would be seen as condoning the activities there in Darfur.” Actually, Dobbs found that Palin’s administration opposed such legislation early this year, and the bill died in committee. Palin did later express support for the bill, and the administration backed a second legislative effort. However, that bill, too, died.
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9104033 - 10/20/08 12:32 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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of course it's impossible to edit a page once it's published and include that information and add it to the collection regarding the debate or at least provide a link on that page to the additional information so people can be more informed with their decisions
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Ferris
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9104088 - 10/20/08 12:45 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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As for the latter claim, assuming average costs over that time period from the total estimates of 1.3 billion and 300 billion, I can imagine that there might have been a three week period in Iraq where we spent 300 billion. The passage of a bill perhaps allowing the military to put out a contract.
Quote:
Look, we have spent more money -- we spend more money in three weeks on combat in Iraq than we spent on the entirety of the last seven years that we have been in Afghanistan building that country.
If you look at the exact quote, maybe he meant the price for combat only. It would seem to me that most of that 300 billion goes towards reconstruction and pay costs in Afghanistan, not the actual cost of air raids and such.
It's definitely stretching the truth a long ways, but it can't be said to be wholly inaccurate.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9104129 - 10/20/08 12:57 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
It's definitely stretching the truth a long ways, but it can't be said to be wholly inaccurate.
What a tool. SloJo didn't say might have been, he made something up from the bottom of his ass. Otherwise known as "bullshit" to most of America. Except deluded shills and useful idiots, that is.
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Ferris
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
#9104167 - 10/20/08 01:04 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm just returning the favor for the "Obama wants to raise taxes on those earning 42k" comment
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9104216 - 10/20/08 01:15 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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in actuality he wants the tax breaks to lapse in effect allowing their taxes to be increased, as opposed to directly voting to raise their taxes like he plans on doing with those that earn $250k+, while not actually raising taxes, his administration will still allow for an increase in taxes
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Ferris
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Prisoner#1]
#9104266 - 10/20/08 01:30 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think I get what you're saying, but this is the first I've heard of this. A link would be appreciated.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9104353 - 10/20/08 01:52 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said: I'm just returning the favor for the "Obama wants to raise taxes on those earning 42k" comment
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Did_Obama_and_Biden_vote_to_raise_taxes_on_incomes_of_42000
Quote:
Did Obama and Biden vote to raise taxes on incomes of 42000? In: History Politics and Society [Edit] [Edit] <No>
Actually, YES!
Barack Obama Voted Twice In Favor Of The Democrats' FY 2009 Budget Resolution That Would Raise Taxes On Those Making Just $42,000 A Year. (S. Con. Res. 70, CQ Vote #85: Adopted 51-44: R 2-43; D 47-1; I 2-0, 3/14/08, Obama Voted Yea; S. Con. Res. 70, CQ Vote #142: Adopted 48- 45: R 2- 44; D 44- 1; I 2-0, 6/4/08, Obama Voted Yea)
FactCheck.org: The Budget Resolution Would Have Allowed Most Of The Provisions Of The 2001 And 2003 Tax Cuts To Expire, Effectively Raising Taxes On Those Making $41,500 In Total Income. "What Obama voted for was a budget resolution that would have allowed most of the provisions of the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts to expire. In particular, the resolution would allow the 25 percent tax bracket to return to its pre-2001 level of 28 percent. That bracket kicks in at $32,550 for an individual or $65,100 for a married couple. … But as those of you who have filled out a 1040 know, that's not actually how income taxes work. We don't pay taxes on our total earnings; we pay them based on our 'taxable income.' The Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center's Eric Toder told FactCheck.org that 'people with taxable income of $32,000 would have a total income greater than that.' In 2008, anyone filing taxes with single status would be entitled to a standard deduction of $5,450, as well as a personal exemption of $3,500. So to have a taxable income high enough to reach the 25 percent bracket, an individual would need to earn at least $41,500 in total income, while a married couple would need a combined income of at least $83,000." ("The $32,000 Question," FactCheck.org, http://www.factcheck.org, 7/8/08)
Obama voted to raise taxes for people earning $41,500. Seems his mouth doesn't match his actions.
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Ferris
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
#9104361 - 10/20/08 01:56 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think you're confusing my tense here. I was replying to this statement:
Quote:
and the fact that Obama's tax plans will increase taxes on people making just 42,000 a year
Also, it'd be nice if you read and understood what you post, because it seems like more of a refutation than an acknowledgment. Or at least you could link from a source where people kind of know what they're talking about. The only source worse than wikianswers is yahoo answers.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9104390 - 10/20/08 02:05 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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It's actually from your precious factcheck, which wiki answers cites, and which appears at the bottom of the quote. But I'll help you out. Most of the article is an Obama campaign quote but the exact passage cited above appears in it. http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/the_32000_question.html
Enjoy.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
#9104400 - 10/20/08 02:08 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Obama's stated tax plan would do this or do that. But how did he vote? We all know he is a serial dissembler and that he wants to spread the wealth around.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
#9104511 - 10/20/08 02:34 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Apparently you just totally skipped over this paragraph:
Quote:
Forbes is right that Obama voted for a resolution that would have allowed tax rates to return to their pre-2001 levels. Yet Obama's own economic plan makes permanent the tax cuts to the four lowest brackets. So why the shift? Obama told reporters on July 7 that "the budget resolutions are not tax votes" and went on to describe the budget process as "screwy." We'll certainly grant him that last part. As we have described before, budget resolutions basically set targets for appropriations committees to use. They are more like guidelines than actual rules. And, like many budget resolutions, this one passed on a party-line vote, with just one Democrat and two Republicans crossing party lines.
I suggest that you read up on the budget process. I warn you before hand though, you'll probably want to go forcefully remove the government from power after you see how it all really goes down.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
#9104574 - 10/20/08 02:49 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Huh? Whachu talking bout willis? In 1999 the 15% tax rate went to $43K with no amount taxed less. In 2008 the 15% tax rate went to $65,000 with the first 16K taxed at 10%. And I don't think you can just cut the married/ joint thresholds in half for singles, either now or then. But I'll play. $32,000.
1999 15% of 21,525=3228.75 28% of 10,475=2933 Total=$6161.75
2008 10% of 8,025=802.50 15% of 23,975=3596.25 Total=$4398.75
Addendum. I see Ferris deleted it. Good move
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud *DELETED* [Re: zappaisgod]
#9104579 - 10/20/08 02:50 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Post deleted by FerrisReason for deletion: .
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9104582 - 10/20/08 02:51 PM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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I had my equations upside down on that one.
It was only up for about 10 seconds, I was hoping that nobody would notice.
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
#9177112 - 11/03/08 11:31 AM (15 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ferris writes:
Quote:
I really don't know how you can get more balanced than factcheck.org
What does factcheck have to say about this?
Quote:
Obama's '$4 Billion for Exxon' Myth Why haven't the 'fact-checkers' done a better job?
In the final days of the campaign, Barack Obama continues to land the same sucker punch on taxes he used in the debates -- and John McCain continues to take it on the chin.
In the last debate, Sen. Obama said, "We both want to cut taxes, the difference is who we want to cut taxes for. . . . The centerpiece of [McCain's] economic proposal is to provide $200 billion in additional tax breaks to some of the wealthiest corporations in America. Exxon Mobil, and other oil companies, for example, would get an additional $4 billion in tax breaks."
That $200 billion figure is false. Yet FactCheck.org and most reporters never bothered to ask Mr. Obama where he came up with it. FactCheck.org did discover that Mr. Obama's claim about "$4 billion in tax breaks for energy companies" came from a two-page memo from the Center for American Progress Action Fund -- a political lobby headed by John Podesta, former chief of staff to Bill Clinton, with tax issues handled by two lawyers, Robert Gordon and James Kvaal, former policy directors for the John Kerry and John Edwards campaigns. Those lawyers confused average tax rates (after credits and deductions) with the 35% statutory rate on the next dollar of earnings, so that cutting the latter rate from 35% to 25% would supposedly cut big oil's $13.4 billion tax bill by 28.5%, or $3.8 billion. That is not economics; it is not even competent bookkeeping.
The Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, by contrast, correctly notes that, "Senator McCain has called for the repeal and reform of a number of tax preferences for oil companies," which would raise the oil companies' taxes by $5 billion in 2013.
When fact checkers do look into campaign claims on taxes, they invariably cite estimates from the Urban Institute and Brookings Institution's Tax Policy Center (TPC). The TPC estimates that the McCain corporate tax cuts would lose $734.7 billion of revenue over 10 years (2009-2018). Mr. McCain would also allow immediate expensing through 2013 for equipment normally written-off over three to five years, but no deduction for interest expense if the investment was made with borrowed money. Once equipment has been written-off in 2009 or 2010 it can't be written-off in later years, so the estimated revenue loss over 10 years is only $45 billion, or $4.5 billion per year. Altogether, that adds up to $78 billion a year in corporate tax cuts, not $200 billion.
Yet the $78 billion TPC estimate is also nonsense because it's entirely static. The estimate assumes raising or lowering corporate tax rates has no effect on corporate decisions about where to locate production, income or costs, and no effect on the economy's performance. If that made sense, the corporate tax rate could be doubled to 70% and the only effect (according to TPC estimates) would be to double corporate tax receipts. Such a static analysis is obviously worthless, yet it is nonetheless crucial to the TPC's estimates of the revenue supposedly lost from the McCain plan and its alleged distributional effects.
Mr. McCain proposes to cut the corporate tax rate to 30% in 2010-11, 28% in 2012-13, 26% in 2014, and 25% thereafter. The timing could be better. Why not cut the corporate tax rate to 28%-30% right away? Could anyone doubt that would help struggling businesses to minimize cutbacks and layoffs? Could anyone doubt it would invigorate the stock market?
Phasing in tax-rate reductions -- as in 1981 and 2001 -- has become a bad habit among Republicans. The trouble is that knowing tax rates will be lower in the future provides incentives to delay earning and reporting income until after they fall. In the American Economic Review, December 2006, University of Michigan economists Christopher House and Matthew Shapiro found "the phased-in tax cuts called for in the 2001 tax bill worked to depress employment as firms and workers waited for the lower tax rates to materialize."
In the U.S today, the combined federal and state tax on corporate profits averages 40%, which is increasingly out of line with the rest of the world. The average corporate tax rate dropped to 25.9% in 2008 from 37.7% in 1996 among 97 countries surveyed by KPMG, and to 23.2% from 38% in the European Union. Corporate tax revenues typically increased as a share of GDP after tax rates were reduced. Countries with corporate tax rates from 12.5% to 25%, such as Ireland, Switzerland, Austria and Denmark, routinely collect more corporate tax revenue as a share of GDP than the anemic 2.1% figure the Congressional Budget Office projects for the U.S.
In a new Tax & Budget Bulletin at Cato.org, Jack Mintz of the University of Calgary estimates that a federal-state corporate tax rate higher than 28% loses money for the government. Kimberly Clausing of Reed College estimated revenues would be maximized with a 33% federal and state tax. Kevin Hassett and Alex Brill of the American Enterprise Institute found "the revenue maximizing point has dropped over time, and is about 26%." In all of these studies, cutting the federal tax to 28%-30% sooner rather than later is very likely to raise revenue.
Regardless who wins the election, an accelerated version of Mr. McCain's original plan -- to cut the corporate tax rate to 28%-30% and expense investments in business equipment -- is by far the most potent "stimulus plan" anyone has yet proposed. And far from costing $200 billion a year, as Mr. Obama claims, it wouldn't cost a dime.
Phred
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