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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Phred]
    #9101934 - 10/19/08 09:36 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

It's not meant to be a full list.  I can only assume that they itemized the most important policies and central key points.  It seems to me that this was more of a slip that not many people probably noticed.  You can always send them an email you know.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
    #9102535 - 10/20/08 12:08 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I removed our derailment to a new thread

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Phred]
    #9102641 - 10/20/08 12:57 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

The summary looks fine so far.




It does, does it? Do you see two dozen errors/lies on Biden's part? Because he made more than that. Including the two most blatant, obvious, egregious ones that anyone with even a tiny sliver of knowledge of foreign affairs (Biden's supposed area of expertise) knew as soon as poor ole Slow Joe let them slip were complete and utter bullshit - that the US kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon and that the US spends more every three weeks in Iraq than it has spent on the Afghanistan conflict in the last seven years.

Please cut and paste Factcheck's analyses of these two howlers. Thank you.





Phred






That's nice, but this doesn't really show the kind of bias I would care about from factcheck when using them.  I'm interested in what they do write, not what they don't.


I presume, since you've been saying so for awhile, you've got more than this on factcheck?  What kinds of things have they said that demonstrate bias?  I'm just curious cuz the above doesn't seem to have any bearing on the liklihood that what they did write, rather than didn't, would be wrong.


This is the kind of "rush libaugh/Oreily" bias that you see quite a few places, where folks don't say things per se wrong or biased, they omit things which results in their product as a whole being biased... Though its dangerous in that it goes unnoticed probably more often, its hard to call this a positive fraud, which was what I thought you were alleging.


So what positive statements has factcheck made that are actually biased?  What are some of the most egregious examples? 


And again, your constant poisoning of the well is tiring.  With your "everyone is biased against me and its your burden to show that they aren't" mindset you do this constantly rather than simply showing why the claim, nomatter who made it, is wrong.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: johnm214]
    #9103114 - 10/20/08 07:57 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Not to mention both of those examples are actually on factcheck.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: johnm214]
    #9103976 - 10/20/08 12:16 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

johnm214 writes:

Quote:

That's nice, but this doesn't really show the kind of bias I would care about from factcheck when using them.  I'm interested in what they do write, not what they don't.




You and I have had this conversation before, and you have a fundamental and apparently irremediable blindspot on this question of bias. Often what matters the most in determining bias is in noting not what is said, but what is not said. See my famous Robert Jernigan example in the archives.

If an organization is supposedly dedicated to correcting factual errors, but then ignores most of the factual errors made by one side, that is bias.

There was a thread here that I know for a fact you have seen, detailing Biden's "errors" (I'm being kind in my phrasing here) in the Vice Presidential debate. At the time I abandoned the thread, the count for Biden was 28. That's twenty-eight. Knocking a few of those off for maybe being variations on the same theme, or maybe honest differences in opinion rather than outright factual errors, that still leaves around two dozen. How many of them does Factcheck even address?

As for them being wrong in the positive sense, I suggest your review that thread. A lot of what they claim to be "errors" in what Palin said are not errors at all. This was addressed in detail in that thread, I'm not going to type it all again, but a few hints would be that Palin did note Obama's comments on troops in Afghanistan "just bombing villages" and the fact that Obama's tax plans will increase taxes on people making just 42,000 a year. Factcheck fucked up both of those. They screwed up others too, as a review of the post-debate thread will show. It was a thread started by me and the title was something like "That was fast" or "that was quick".




Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Redstorm]
    #9103986 - 10/20/08 12:18 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Please cut and paste Factcheck's analyses of these two howlers. Thank you.




They are? Not on the page dedicated to the post-VP-debate analysis, they aren't. I extend to you the same invitation I extended to Ferris:

"Please cut and paste Factcheck's analyses of these two howlers. Thank you." Include the URL to the cut and paste as well, please.







Phred


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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Phred]
    #9103993 - 10/20/08 12:22 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

It would seem to me that if you want such factual information as "obama will raise taxes on those earning 42,000 a year," then you should stay away from anything resembling non-biased information.


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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Phred]
    #9104019 - 10/20/08 12:28 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I already provided a link to one of them.

http://wire.factcheck.org/2008/10/04/biden-on-hezbollah-and-other-late-debate-goodies/

Quote:

In today’s Washington Post, Michael Dobbs, a.k.a. The Fact Checker, writes about a few more stumbles from the debate, including a couple items that we didn’t have in our story on Friday.

Dobbs, a former diplomatic reporter, says Sen. Joe Biden was wrong when he said the U.S. and France “kicked Hezbollah out of Lebanon.” He was correct in saying that there was talk of sending NATO forces to the country in 2006. Dobbs also cites Biden’s invitation to voters to “go down Union Street with me in Wilmington [Delaware] or go to ‘Katie’s Restaurant.’ ” That restaurant closed in the 1980s and has been replaced by a chain. The Wilmington News Journal wrote about the error, as well.

Dobbs also says Gov. Sarah Palin “is exaggerating her role” in an effort in Alaska to divest from companies with business dealings with Sudan. In the debate, she said, “When I and others in the legislature found out we had some millions of dollars in Sudan, we called for divestment through legislation of those dollars to make sure we weren’t doing anything that would be seen as condoning the activities there in Darfur.” Actually, Dobbs found that Palin’s administration opposed such legislation early this year, and the bill died in committee. Palin did later express support for the bill, and the administration backed a second legislative effort. However, that bill, too, died.




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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
    #9104033 - 10/20/08 12:32 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

of course it's impossible to edit a page once it's published
and include that information and add it to the collection
regarding the debate or at least provide a link on that page to
the additional information so people can be more informed with
their decisions

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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
    #9104088 - 10/20/08 12:45 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

As for the latter claim, assuming average costs over that time period from the total estimates of 1.3 billion and 300 billion, I can imagine that there might have been a three week period in Iraq where we spent 300 billion.  The passage of a bill perhaps allowing the military to put out a contract.

Quote:

Look, we have spent more money -- we spend more money in three weeks on combat in Iraq than we spent on the entirety of the last seven years that we have been in Afghanistan building that country.




If you look at the exact quote, maybe he meant the price for combat only.  It would seem to me that most of that 300 billion goes towards reconstruction and pay costs in Afghanistan, not the actual cost of air raids and such.

It's definitely stretching the truth a long ways, but it can't be said to be wholly inaccurate.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
    #9104129 - 10/20/08 12:57 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ferris said:



It's definitely stretching the truth a long ways, but it can't be said to be wholly inaccurate.




What a tool.  SloJo didn't say might have been, he made something up from the bottom of his ass.  Otherwise known as "bullshit" to most of America.  Except deluded shills and useful idiots, that is.


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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9104167 - 10/20/08 01:04 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I'm just returning the favor for the "Obama wants to raise taxes on those earning 42k" comment :lol:


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
    #9104216 - 10/20/08 01:15 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

in actuality he wants the tax breaks to lapse in effect
allowing their taxes to be increased, as opposed to directly
voting to raise their taxes like he plans on doing with those
that earn $250k+, while not actually raising taxes, his administration will still allow for an increase in taxes

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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #9104266 - 10/20/08 01:30 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I think I get what you're saying, but this is the first I've heard of this.  A link would be appreciated.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
    #9104353 - 10/20/08 01:52 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ferris said:
I'm just returning the favor for the "Obama wants to raise taxes on those earning 42k" comment :lol:




http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Did_Obama_and_Biden_vote_to_raise_taxes_on_incomes_of_42000

Quote:

Did Obama and Biden vote to raise taxes on incomes of 42000?
In: History Politics and Society

[Edit]
[Edit]
<No>

Actually, YES!

Barack Obama Voted Twice In Favor Of The Democrats' FY 2009 Budget Resolution That Would Raise Taxes On Those Making Just $42,000 A Year. (S. Con. Res. 70, CQ Vote #85: Adopted 51-44: R 2-43; D 47-1; I 2-0, 3/14/08, Obama Voted Yea; S. Con. Res. 70, CQ Vote #142: Adopted 48- 45: R 2- 44; D 44- 1; I 2-0, 6/4/08, Obama Voted Yea)

FactCheck.org: The Budget Resolution Would Have Allowed Most Of The Provisions Of The 2001 And 2003 Tax Cuts To Expire, Effectively Raising Taxes On Those Making $41,500 In Total Income. "What Obama voted for was a budget resolution that would have allowed most of the provisions of the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts to expire. In particular, the resolution would allow the 25 percent tax bracket to return to its pre-2001 level of 28 percent. That bracket kicks in at $32,550 for an individual or $65,100 for a married couple. … But as those of you who have filled out a 1040 know, that's not actually how income taxes work. We don't pay taxes on our total earnings; we pay them based on our 'taxable income.' The Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center's Eric Toder told FactCheck.org that 'people with taxable income of $32,000 would have a total income greater than that.' In 2008, anyone filing taxes with single status would be entitled to a standard deduction of $5,450, as well as a personal exemption of $3,500. So to have a taxable income high enough to reach the 25 percent bracket, an individual would need to earn at least $41,500 in total income, while a married couple would need a combined income of at least $83,000." ("The $32,000 Question," FactCheck.org, http://www.factcheck.org, 7/8/08)





Obama voted to raise taxes for people earning $41,500.  Seems his mouth doesn't match his actions.


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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9104361 - 10/20/08 01:56 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I think you're confusing my tense here.  I was replying to this statement:

Quote:

and the fact that Obama's tax plans will increase taxes on people making just 42,000 a year




Also, it'd be nice if you read and understood what you post, because it seems like more of a refutation than an acknowledgment.  Or at least you could link from a source where people kind of know what they're talking about.  The only source worse than wikianswers is yahoo answers.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: Ferris]
    #9104390 - 10/20/08 02:05 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

It's actually from your precious factcheck, which wiki answers cites, and which appears at the bottom of the quote.  But I'll help you out.  Most of the article is an Obama campaign quote but the exact passage cited above appears in it.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/the_32000_question.html

Enjoy.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9104400 - 10/20/08 02:08 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Obama's stated tax plan would do this or do that.  But how did he vote?  We all know he is a serial dissembler and that he wants to spread the wealth around.


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InvisibleFerris
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9104511 - 10/20/08 02:34 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Apparently you just totally skipped over this paragraph:

Quote:

Forbes is right that Obama voted for a resolution that would have allowed tax rates to return to their pre-2001 levels. Yet Obama's own economic plan makes permanent the tax cuts to the four lowest brackets. So why the shift? Obama told reporters on July 7 that "the budget resolutions are not tax votes" and went on to describe the budget process as "screwy." We'll certainly grant him that last part. As we have described before, budget resolutions basically set targets for appropriations committees to use. They are more like guidelines than actual rules. And, like many budget resolutions, this one passed on a party-line vote, with just one Democrat and two Republicans crossing party lines.




I suggest that you read up on the budget process.  I warn you before hand though, you'll probably want to go forcefully remove the government from power after you see how it all really goes down.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Obama Wants to Prosecute Those Seeking to Prevent Vote Fraud [Re: zappaisgod]
    #9104574 - 10/20/08 02:49 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Huh?  Whachu talking bout willis?  In 1999 the 15% tax rate went to $43K with no amount taxed less.  In 2008 the 15% tax rate went to $65,000 with the first 16K taxed at 10%.  And I don't think you can just cut the married/ joint thresholds in half for singles, either now or then.  But I'll play.  $32,000.

1999
15% of 21,525=3228.75
28% of 10,475=2933
Total=$6161.75

2008
10% of 8,025=802.50
15% of 23,975=3596.25
Total=$4398.75


Addendum.  I see Ferris deleted it.  Good move


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