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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Psychedelic Crackwhores
    #909249 - 09/26/02 07:46 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

{edit: Yeah, so this has nothing to do with crackwhores... sorry.}

This is an excerpt from this forgotten post.

No matter how you slice it,
Pure pattern = No hope

Just because patterns emerge doesn't mean that there is one, universal, grand pattern that is responsible for EVERYTHING. Although that is a very elegant postulate, the lack of hope gets to me. What about the lots that some of us were "dealt"? Should we just accept our fates and get on with being miserable? Should we even bother trying to "go against the grain" of our "fate"?

"Well, only if it is your fate to do so..."
So, the whole concept of "should" has no meaning in this world? Ethics are irrelevant? Fuck compassion (unless it is your fate to be compassionate)?
I don't disagree with the libertarian's stance on this, but there is more to this than just the moral implications of determinism being true.

Most people who like the eastern (ex. Alan Watts) perspective tend to take the compatibilist argument. However, their argument amounts to semantics and manipulation of concepts... it seems like they're just settling for a nice, happy, simple explanation.

There really isn't a name for my stance on the free will vs. determinism debate. But I think I take the mean between the two extremes. Between pure randomness (not something that just "seems" random) and pure cause-and-effect determinism. I sometimes call it the Dirty Fractal Edge.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Edited by Sclorch (09/26/02 12:44 PM)


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
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Re: Psychedelic Crackwhores [Re: Sclorch]
    #909838 - 09/26/02 02:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Just because patterns emerge doesn't mean that there is one, universal, grand pattern that is responsible for EVERYTHING. Although that is a very elegant postulate, the lack of hope gets to me

How does a grand pattern preclude the posibility of free will? Maybe patterns could exist more like mathematical formulas, or like Plato's "plane of forms" but reality never EXACTLY follows those patterns - leaving room for free will.

I don't like compatibalism either. If we live in a deterministic world, there can be no morals and no personal responsibility. Period.


I take the mean between the two extremes

Always the logical choice. I can't accept pure determinism either nor can I accept that there are no patterns in life.

I still think that randomness is an illusion, but I don't equate randomness with free will. I see free will as something like a modifier to existing patterns - if you modify the values in a fractal equation, things can unfold in unpredictable (not quite random) ways, but still follow an ordered sequence.

And of course part of the definition of a fractal is that the equation is repeated indefinitely, which makes the result completely unpredictable (because the fractal is never complete, it just keeps creating new "wrinkes" at the edges), which gives the fractal infinite complexity, which means "randomness" (or something indistinguishable from "randomness") CAN arise from an ordered system.



Edited by infidelGOD (09/26/02 02:58 PM)


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Psychedelic Crackwhores [Re: infidelGOD]
    #909964 - 09/26/02 03:37 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

which means "randomness" (or something indistinguishable from "randomness") CAN arise from an ordered system.

Here's where we differ... indistinguishable to who, us? Isn't that a little egocentric?

I also don't understand your concept of free will. It seems like your definition of free will requires an extra "something". Care to tell me what that is and why it's necessary?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Psychedelic Crackwhores [Re: Sclorch]
    #909974 - 09/26/02 03:39 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

haha schlorch!  the title is too funny!  :smile:

> Pure pattern = No hope

I don't believe everything is a pattern (like I used to).  Hey, old beliefs die!  New ones are built from lessons learnt. 

Randomness exists, I believe, but isn't "pure".  Assuming that "pure" randomness equates to 50% chance.  A 50% chance just generates static.  I propose that there is a hint of infinite complexity to randomness.

Here is an example to explain what I mean:

A simulated forest: You put a seed on the ground, it sprouts into a tree, the tree matures and drops apples.  The apples, if uneaten, decay and leave behind a seed.  The seed then grows into a tree if there is proper water.  The method in which the apples are dropped is in a random direction: up, down, left, or right.  This is taken by asking the computer for a random number from 0 to 3. 

This algorithm always generates the same forest.  Apple trees spread out in a diamond pattern.  This is because the random function is too pure: staticy.

Instead, take a random number from the music that is playing on the computer.  Given any point in time when the program polls for the #, it would take the wavelength height of the music playing as a random seed.  For all intent and purpose, this number is random, because it is unpredictable to the program.  Im hoping that it will generate different kinds of forests, based on the music that the user plays.

If the randomness in our own universe is anything like this, which I think it is, its still unpredictable, but on the other hand, its not staticy.  Randomness comes from time, and time is alive.  PS. I have no intention of proving my beliefs to you crackwhores, so fug off :tongue:

my two cents  :grin:


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man = monkey + mushroom


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

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Re: Psychedelic Crackwhores [Re: Sclorch]
    #910004 - 09/26/02 03:53 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah it does require a little something - a soul.

But how would you explain your version of free will?

If I'm to believe that randomness creates free will, shouldn't our will be random as well?
It seems that your definition of free will also requires a little "something".


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
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Re: Psychedelic Crackwhores [Re: pattern]
    #910014 - 09/26/02 03:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

pattern-
What does the following mean to you?
I sometimes call it the Dirty Fractal Edge.

then we have this:
Without order nothing can exist...
Without chaos nothing can evolve. -Adamist


It's not evolution if the underlying program isn't changing because of "noise".


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

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Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Psychedelic Crackwhores [Re: infidelGOD]
    #910042 - 09/26/02 04:07 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

If I'm to believe that randomness creates free will, shouldn't our will be random as well?

I never said randomness creates free will. I think free will is a sort of function that sentient beings develop in order to adapt themselves to this reality consisting of patterns swimming in a sea of randomness.

Yeah it does require a little something - a soul.
Herein lies the problem (maybe not for you though).
Don't get on the defensive here... I'm not trying to change your mind or anything.
What if there is no soul?
Would your concept of free will still hold water?
Maybe I'm missing something...


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Psychedelic Crackwhores [Re: Sclorch]
    #910065 - 09/26/02 04:13 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I think free will is a sort of function that sentient beings develop in order to adapt themselves to this reality consisting of patterns swimming in a sea of randomness.

This doesn't exactly explain free will but it's OK, it's an unanswerable question (see below).

What if there is no soul?
Would your concept of free will still hold water?
Maybe I'm missing something...


The soul (in this case) is simply a concept used to bridge the matter/thought barrier. I can't explain free will.

I think we agree in essence, if not in terminology.

Let me ask you, why is turbulence random?


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Offlinepattern
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Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,183
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Re: Psychedelic Crackwhores [Re: Sclorch]
    #910067 - 09/26/02 04:15 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

>What does the following mean to you?
>I sometimes call it the Dirty Fractal Edge.

Chaos thrives on the "edge" of fractals.  In the center, fractals are more orderly.  The center is shielded from chaos.

>then we have this:
>Without order nothing can exist...
>Without chaos nothing can evolve. -Adamist

I agree.  Order + chaos = evolution.  I think there is more order than chaos.  Lets say, 3 parts order, 1 part chaos: 3 dimensions of space, 1 dimension of time.  Something like that.  :smile:  There is still a duality: order/chaos, but its lopsided.

> It's not evolution if the underlying program isn't changing because of "noise".

I want to give the program a different kind of noise :smile:  Hmm maybe I could combine the two random functions... fuzz the input from the music with a random fraction?  hehe

 


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Psychedelic Crackwhores [Re: Sclorch]
    #910076 - 09/26/02 04:17 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

> I sometimes call it the Dirty Fractal Edge.

Can you write some more thoughts about this? 

thx :smile: 


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Psychedelic Crackwhores [Re: Sclorch]
    #912888 - 09/27/02 07:01 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)



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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Psychedelic Crackwhores [Re: infidelGOD]
    #913125 - 09/27/02 08:50 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

That's a cool link. Not exactly on-topic, but still interesting.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Psychedelic Crackwhores [Re: Sclorch]
    #913148 - 09/27/02 08:56 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

You're right, that had nothing to do with psychedelic crackwhores.  :grin:


I thought it was interesting that after 4 perfect shuffles, you get "static".
 


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