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InvisibledeCypher
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Buddhism and desire.
    #9091365 - 10/17/08 01:48 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

According to Buddhism, (correct me if I'm wrong), suffering is a result of desire.  We can't satisfy every craving that we have, and therefore we become unhappy.  The only way out of this dilemma is to remove all manifestations of craving and desire that we have.

However, with the advent of technology and sophisticated computer modeling and neuroscience, we will eventually be able to plug our minds into a completely virtual simulation--where pleasure, omnipotence, and everything that we want will be able to be instantly satisfied.

What's wrong with this solution to the problem of suffering?  Instead of removing desire, why not satisfy every desire?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9091409 - 10/17/08 02:00 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Who and where claimed that there might be something wrong with this alternative?

Personally, I think it is a really cool idea; however, I would still want to educate myself and be able to rid myself of desire, just because I don't like the idea of relying on something else to make me happy. Self-education doesn't obstruct in any way any kind of pleasure of the kind you suggest, but it would not diminish my self reliance in case of a sudden change. :grin:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleblewmeanieS
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9091422 - 10/17/08 02:03 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
According to Buddhism, (correct me if I'm wrong), suffering is a result of desire.  We can't satisfy every craving that we have, and therefore we become unhappy.  The only way out of this dilemma is to remove all manifestations of craving and desire that we have.

However, with the advent of technology and sophisticated computer modeling and neuroscience, we will eventually be able to plug our minds into a completely virtual simulation--where pleasure, omnipotence, and everything that we want will be able to be instantly satisfied.

What's wrong with this solution to the problem of suffering?  Instead of removing desire, why not satisfy every desire?




I wonder what new insatiable desires might arise in the presence of such technology.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9091442 - 10/17/08 02:06 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

This discussion reminds me of "Ghost In The Shell" :strokebeard:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9091471 - 10/17/08 02:12 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
However, with the advent of technology and sophisticated computer modeling and neuroscience, we will eventually be able to plug our minds into a completely virtual simulation--where pleasure, omnipotence, and everything that we want will be able to be instantly satisfied.




or we would possibly get sick of this artificially induced gratification, unless of course we built the technology to put us into deep meditative states with greater ease.  if we could build something that could help tune us into ourselves, it would help us to discover the roots of our suffering.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9091483 - 10/17/08 02:15 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

It is mental grasping which creates suffering, and not desire.  Since the ultimate desire is to circumvent mortality, we can never be free from desire.  An important concept in Buddhist thought is that all things are impermanent, and subject to decay and loss.  Since this is an essential quality of materiality, loss and death are inevitable.  No amount of neural stimulation will alter the nature of existence, so this method will not end suffering.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Veritas]
    #9091507 - 10/17/08 02:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
It is mental grasping which creates suffering, and not desire.




is desire not a form of mental grasping?


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InvisibleblewmeanieS
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deranger]
    #9091516 - 10/17/08 02:24 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
It is mental grasping which creates suffering, and not desire.




is desire not a form of mental grasping?




That is the point that she was making.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9091526 - 10/17/08 02:27 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

then how does desire not create suffering?


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InvisibleblewmeanieS
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deranger]
    #9091539 - 10/17/08 02:32 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Desire has a source as well. You cannot remove desire by removing desire, as it isn't a thing, it is a label that we place upon one certain aspect of mental grasping.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deranger]
    #9091540 - 10/17/08 02:32 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The experience of desire is merely an expression of preference, as is the experience of aversion.  If it is not followed by neurotic grasping, it does not create suffering.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Veritas]
    #9091578 - 10/17/08 02:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

i just see a similarity between the two, that is all.

blewmeanie - desire is a label just as grasping is a label.  both are mental processes that have their similarities.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deranger]
    #9091589 - 10/17/08 02:50 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Grasping is dependent upon desire/craving, so the two are clearly different and separate from one another.  I've heard them described as links in the chain which binds us to suffering. If one wishes to break the chain, the logical place to begin is with the mental habit of grasping at that which we crave.  As biological entities, it seems likely that desire is simply part of the structure.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Veritas]
    #9091597 - 10/17/08 02:54 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

gotcha.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deranger]
    #9091599 - 10/17/08 02:54 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Veritas]
    #9091656 - 10/17/08 03:18 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
It is mental grasping which creates suffering, and not desire.  Since the ultimate desire is to circumvent mortality, we can never be free from desire.  An important concept in Buddhist thought is that all things are impermanent, and subject to decay and loss.  Since this is an essential quality of materiality, loss and death are inevitable.  No amount of neural stimulation will alter the nature of existence, so this method will not end suffering.




How about when our technology comes to the point where we can circumvent aging?  How does practical immortality fit into the Buddhist scheme?

(And aren't you grasping at not grasping?)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9091884 - 10/17/08 04:17 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

We will never invent technology which will circumvent the fact that materiality is impermanent.  :shrug:

Grasping at not grasping?  Methinks you're grasping at straws. :wink:


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InvisibleblewmeanieS
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Veritas]
    #9091924 - 10/17/08 04:25 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Is that like the hair color of bald?


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9091978 - 10/17/08 04:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Or the religion of atheism?  :wink:  BTW, your new sig makes me giggle. 


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Veritas]
    #9092199 - 10/17/08 05:17 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
We will never invent technology which will circumvent the fact that materiality is impermanent.  :shrug:

Grasping at not grasping?  Methinks you're grasping at straws. :wink:




Are you saying that we'll never be able to circumvent old age or death?  I think this is highly unlikely.

And doesn't the whole concept of Buddhism require you to desire not to desire?


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9092219 - 10/17/08 05:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

It "requires"? :what: I think you're in error here.
This concept is nothing more than an accurate observation of aspects of the human mind, and how emotional attachment becomes an obstacle in the way of happiness (total acceptance).


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9092222 - 10/17/08 05:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
However, with the advent of technology and sophisticated computer modeling and neuroscience, we will eventually be able to plug our minds into a completely virtual simulation--where pleasure, omnipotence, and everything that we want will be able to be instantly satisfied.

What's wrong with this solution to the problem of suffering?  Instead of removing desire, why not satisfy every desire?




Because it is not the desire that causes suffering, it's the attachment.  Dependence on a virtual simulation to fulfill all desires would create a very strong attachment.  It would train a person to need very strongly every single thing he desires, rendering him childlike and incompetent if he were ever disconnected. 

IMO it is unlikely there will ever be a technology that can fulfill every desire.  The mind formulates desires from the body's needs... how is this virtual simulator supposed to eat for me when there is no food available?  Does it pee for me?  Or does it just make starvation and rupturing bladders pleasurable?

Attachments are usually problematic, but there are desires and attachments that are essential to survival.  If I found walking in front of a bus as fulfilling as standing on the sidewalk and waiting for it to pass, I wouldn't live long.  But what would life mean to us then anyway?  Why NOT just kill yourself, if the only point in life is to avoid suffering?  It's interesting to think about.  Suffering seems to make life worthwhile.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9092225 - 10/17/08 05:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

There is more to material existence than humanity.  We may be able to greatly extend the human lifespan, but we will not be able to eliminate death NOR will we be able to eliminate the impermanent nature of all material things, relationships, jobs, emotional states, etc... etc...

As long as "good" things can end, and "bad" things can persist, we will experience desire/aversion.  The question is how we will handle these experiences.  This would apply to the desire to be free from one's grasping nature, as well.  If we become attached (grasp) to the idea of NOT grasping, we will experience suffering.

I like to discuss this as the difference between jogging behind a car & being dragged behind a car. :smile:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9092256 - 10/17/08 05:29 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
It "requires"? :what: I think you're in error here.
This concept is nothing more than an accurate observation of aspects of the human mind, and how emotional attachment becomes an obstacle in the way of happiness (total acceptance).




Right, so one consequently seeks to avoid emotional attachment (therefore desiring not to desire.)

Quote:

WhiskeyClone said:
Because it is not the desire that causes suffering, it's the attachment.  Dependence on a virtual simulation to fulfill all desires would create a very strong attachment.  It would train a person to need very strongly every single thing he desires, rendering him childlike and incompetent if he were ever disconnected. 

IMO it is unlikely there will ever be a technology that can fulfill every desire.  The mind formulates desires from the body's needs... how is this virtual simulator supposed to eat for me when there is no food available?  Does it pee for me?  Or does it just make starvation and rupturing bladders pleasurable?

Attachments are usually problematic, but there are desires and attachments that are essential to survival.  If I found walking in front of a bus as fulfilling as standing on the sidewalk and waiting for it to pass, I wouldn't live long.  But what would life mean to us then anyway?  Why NOT just kill yourself, if the only point in life is to avoid suffering?  It's interesting to think about.  Suffering seems to make life worthwhile.




Of course the scenario is rendered worthless if the person in question is ever disconnected--but let's suppose that it were set up so that you're getting fed intravenously, all your bodily wastes are being taken care of--and you'd never know when you were going to die.  Surely this satisfies all desires and eliminates all suffering until you die (which is the ultimate goal of Buddhism, no?)

Quote:

Veritas said:
We may be able to greatly extend the human lifespan, but we will not be able to eliminate death




I think you vastly underestimate the eventual power of technology.  Just wait 'till the Singularity...  :wink:


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9092283 - 10/17/08 05:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Surely this satisfies all desires and eliminates all suffering until you die (which is the ultimate goal of Buddhism, no?)

no


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deranger]
    #9092292 - 10/17/08 05:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

OK, perhaps not ultimate goal, but one of their goals is to eliminate suffering.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9092306 - 10/17/08 05:38 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

another one is to raise consciousness.  living in a artificial reality seems to be going against this.


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9092346 - 10/17/08 05:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Of course the scenario is rendered worthless if the person in question is ever disconnected--but let's suppose that it were set up so that you're getting fed intravenously, all your bodily wastes are being taken care of--and you'd never know when you were going to die.  Surely this satisfies all desires and eliminates all suffering until you die (which is the ultimate goal of Buddhism, no?)





:strokebeard:

As perceived by a person who is not yet 'plugged in', what would make them want to live out the remainder of their precious lives lying in a bed with catheter and shit tube? And who maintains all this apparatus?  If people are hooked up until they die, who would convince anybody it is worthwhile?  Would you change your friend's piss bag every day just because he decided to give up on life?


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9092405 - 10/17/08 05:54 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Right, so one consequently seeks to avoid emotional attachment (therefore desiring not to desire.)





One can be aware that it is more preferable to break the circle of emotional attachment without turning it into something non-constructive (aka obsessing over it, feeling like a wreck & worthless in the moment you observe that you still have emotional attachments).


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9092605 - 10/17/08 06:25 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Exactly!  :smile:  You don't desire NOT to desire, you accept that you WILL desire, and that you have options available to you for how you will respond to it.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9092721 - 10/17/08 06:46 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
According to Buddhism, (correct me if I'm wrong), suffering is a result of desire. 

{-----------break----------}

We can't satisfy every craving that we have, and therefore we become unhappy.  The only way out of this dilemma is to remove all manifestations of craving and desire that we have.




well I think you have the right idea up to the {-----break---}.

at that point the insight about the connection of suffering to desire takes an extrapolated turn into non-buddhist territory.

desire and clinging are related to suffering but suffering is not due to satisfaction of desire being withheld. that little therefore is a step in the wrong direction.

the insight about grasping, clinging, desire, and attachment is kind of a fractal observation - it is an observation about a thing that keeps happenning on all levels of body mind and spirit.

pain and suffering are not exactly caused by grasping etc. but by grasping out of scope of what is suitable. this is the fractal that occurs on all levels.
the problem is not solved by ending grasping etc.
instead, the problem is solved by right understanding of what is suitable. right thought, right speech, right action, right meditation, summarized as the middle way. AKA the path of freedom.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9092731 - 10/17/08 06:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

So one is allowed to grasp, but not too much?

And WhiskeyClone, have you read Circuit of Heaven?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9093001 - 10/17/08 08:08 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

right grasping


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9093033 - 10/17/08 08:16 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

or how about... mindful grasping


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deranger]
    #9093093 - 10/17/08 08:34 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

So how does one determine what is mindful grasping and what isn't?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9093219 - 10/17/08 08:57 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

being aware that you are grasping, versus grasping without knowing.  sometimes we're like robots and do things without even really knowing.


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9093249 - 10/17/08 09:06 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
According to Buddhism, (correct me if I'm wrong), suffering is a result of desire.  We can't satisfy every craving that we have, and therefore we become unhappy.  The only way out of this dilemma is to remove all manifestations of craving and desire that we have.

However, with the advent of technology and sophisticated computer modeling and neuroscience, we will eventually be able to plug our minds into a completely virtual simulation--where pleasure, omnipotence, and everything that we want will be able to be instantly satisfied.

What's wrong with this solution to the problem of suffering?  Instead of removing desire, why not satisfy every desire?




I believe this to be incorrect. Suffering is not caused by desire but attachment to fulfilling the desire. Preference VS Addiction. Desire makes life work.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Icelander]
    #9093286 - 10/17/08 09:16 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Suffering is not caused by desire but attachment to fulfilling the desire.

i've always defined desire as a kind of attachment and habitual mental process.  is this wrong?


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deranger]
    #9093302 - 10/17/08 09:19 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I believe it is. Desire gets us out of bed each morning. But desire can come as a preference which does not alter the emotions if not fulfilled or as an addiction that causes emotional withdrawal symptoms. (suffering)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Icelander]
    #9093342 - 10/17/08 09:32 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Desire gets us out of bed each morning.

that still doesn't make it not a habitual process.

but i agree with the rest of what you said.

wasn't it Kesey who spoke of this?


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deranger]
    #9093357 - 10/17/08 09:36 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I'm thinking RET or Keyes, but Epictetus said it first to my knowledge.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deranger]
    #9093366 - 10/17/08 09:37 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

that still doesn't make it not a habitual process.


It doesn't  have to be.:shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Icelander]
    #9093467 - 10/17/08 09:55 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

but isn't it, a lot of the time?


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deranger]
    #9095388 - 10/18/08 08:53 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
Suffering is not caused by desire but attachment to fulfilling the desire.

i've always defined desire as a kind of attachment and habitual mental process.  is this wrong?




linkage will occur if things happen together or if things are simmilar
anything can be linked with anything.

linkage is the same thing that people are calling attachment and habit.

it is the method of memory. it is not evil, but it can cascade into trouble.


desire relates to body feelings that are associated with experiences.
what is linked with desire in memory is often topsy turvey. like intoxicated.

I like being intoxicated, but I don't like to drive when I am intoxicated.


I think it is hardly about the "pain of not getting things",
but all about losing one's even mindedness and crashing around like an idiot.


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9095430 - 10/18/08 09:55 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
According to Buddhism, (correct me if I'm wrong), suffering is a result of desire.  We can't satisfy every craving that we have, and therefore we become unhappy.  The only way out of this dilemma is to remove all manifestations of craving and desire that we have.

However, with the advent of technology and sophisticated computer modeling and neuroscience, we will eventually be able to plug our minds into a completely virtual simulation--where pleasure, omnipotence, and everything that we want will be able to be instantly satisfied.

What's wrong with this solution to the problem of suffering?  Instead of removing desire, why not satisfy every desire?




Because desire is endless, we always want what we dont or cant have, once one desire is satisfied another will be born, the belly of the mind is never full!

As long as there is the perception of individuality there will always be a mindset of without, there will always be an urge & yearning to unite with something other than  yourself. All beings seek unity with something & that is desire, to unite with something & feel peace in that unification. Theres nothing wrong with desiring peace but things outside yourself dont bring you peace because things outside yourself keep the chian of desire locked. So satisfying outside desires is endless, its like a bottomless pit, you cant fill it.

The end of desire is when you unify with or realize who you are, then desires fall away because you are whole, when you are one with it all what is there outside of yourself to desire?

Living in the tao is living desireless as nothing is outside of you, when there is no desire in you your free, this can be testified by anyone, that when they feel satisfied & without any desire (usually at the beginning of a new relationship) they will tell you they feel free & happy, because they feel whole & unified.


:egyptian:


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9095607 - 10/18/08 11:48 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
Suffering is not caused by desire but attachment to fulfilling the desire.

i've always defined desire as a kind of attachment and habitual mental process.  is this wrong?




linkage will occur if things happen together or if things are simmilar
anything can be linked with anything.

linkage is the same thing that people are calling attachment and habit.





:thumbup: Suffering is caused by attatchment to form


--------------------
let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deranger]
    #9095731 - 10/18/08 12:36 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
but isn't it, a lot of the time?




Yes most of the time. But we have a choice and can use it. Really it matters little what the majority do if we have a choice to do something different.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9095733 - 10/18/08 12:37 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it is the method of memory. it is not evil, but it can cascade into trouble.




yes, that wasn't saying the habitual patterns or "linkages" are necessarily always negative.  i like getting intoxicated too :grin:


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Icelander]
    #9095736 - 10/18/08 12:37 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

SyntheticMInd said:
but isn't it, a lot of the time?




Yes most of the time. But we have a choice and can use it. Really it matters little what the majority do if we have a choice to do something different.




:thumbup:


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Chronic7]
    #9095750 - 10/18/08 12:42 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The end of desire is when you unify with or realize who you are, then desires fall away because you are whole, when you are one with it all what is there outside of yourself to desire?


I don't believe this for a minute. Your desire to post your views is proof of your incorrect assessment of what is real. No human will be without desire at any point in their life on earth. Desire is essential. Addiction to the fulfillment of desire is not. This is where most people miss the point. I may desire a donut. I do not have to lose my joy if I can't have one. If however I'm addicted to the fulfillment of my donut desire then I will suffer.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Chronic7]
    #9095895 - 10/18/08 01:41 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Chronic777, you seem like you've gotten a hell of a lot out of pure meditation and self-awareness.  What methods/types of meditation would you recommend to achieve a similar state?


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9095949 - 10/18/08 02:00 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Its taught in my Indian Philosophy class that desires will cause some amount of Karma, which leaves you in the endless cycle of reincarnations (samsara).

In order to break free of samara, to liberation, all desires need to be given up in order to lose your karma.

Karma can be looked at as inertia, what is started or cause must continue, only to be ceased by forgiveness.

Sorry if that's vague.

Desires are becoming quite a hinderance. When I can't concentrate during meditation I always wonder "If I didn't have that slushy would I be having this problem?"


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9096096 - 10/18/08 02:55 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Desires are becoming quite a hinderance. When I can't concentrate during meditation I always wonder "If I didn't have that slushy would I be having this problem?"




it's hard not to resist some of the great ideas that pop into mind during meditation.  desires surface quite intensely... good practice !


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9096560 - 10/18/08 05:02 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry if that's vague.


There's a good reason for this IMO.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9103025 - 10/20/08 08:47 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
According to Buddhism, (correct me if I'm wrong), suffering is a result of desire.  We can't satisfy every craving that we have, and therefore we become unhappy.  The only way out of this dilemma is to remove all manifestations of craving and desire that we have.

However, with the advent of technology and sophisticated computer modeling and neuroscience, we will eventually be able to plug our minds into a completely virtual simulation--where pleasure, omnipotence, and everything that we want will be able to be instantly satisfied.

What's wrong with this solution to the problem of suffering?  Instead of removing desire, why not satisfy every desire?




First off, there simply cannot ever be a state of being where every desire is fulfilled as many desires are contradictory to other desires that one may have at the outset.  For instance, I may desire to play guitar, and yet I may also desire to take a jog.

As for Buddhism saying this or that, such is subject to interpretation, and I suggest, and people should listen to this, and that is that Buddhism is not explained in books. Or by college professors.  It also is not something to buy into, preach, know merely intellectually, or much of anything else. 

Buddhism is like brushing up against a wiser friend who can shift ones course slowly over lives towards better action and more inner knowledge. 

All this 'desire-no desire' shit is merely that.


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: eve69]
    #9103420 - 10/20/08 11:56 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

eve69 said:
First off, there simply cannot ever be a state of being where every desire is fulfilled as many desires are contradictory to other desires that one may have at the outset.




I find this highly unlikely, especially due to my own experiences.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Icelander]
    #9103445 - 10/20/08 12:03 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
The end of desire is when you unify with or realize who you are, then desires fall away because you are whole, when you are one with it all what is there outside of yourself to desire?


I don't believe this for a minute. Your desire to post your views is proof of your incorrect assessment of what is real. No human will be without desire at any point in their life on earth. Desire is essential. Addiction to the fulfillment of desire is not. This is where most people miss the point. I may desire a donut. I do not have to lose my joy if I can't have one. If however I'm addicted to the fulfillment of my donut desire then I will suffer.




Its still there like i still desire to eat food, your right, but the attachment is not there, so it cant really be said to be a heavy desire because your not left constantly wanting, your hungry you eat, your tired you sleep etc...theres no "oooh i reeeally want that, then ill be happy" which to me is desire, eating & sleeping & posting on forums expressing views are natural functions, i dont consider them as 'desires', the word desire to me implies attachment, as its memory of a past temporary fulfillment & then action on that desire, its a want of something

I dont knwo maybe the dictionary will correct me but i personally feel that desire is an attachment kindof word, when you say you desire something is just sounds like drooling over possesing something in the future, not making a post on a forum?

Like i dont desire to reply, i simply reply? :shrug:


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Chronic7]
    #9103471 - 10/20/08 12:11 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

You are agreeing with me here.

So lets change the words and use preference vs addiction.  I prefer to get some pussy tonight because I feel horny but because it's unavailable I let it go and continue to find things to do with my time. Now if I'm a sex addict I can't let go of this need and it drives me crazy because I can't get it right now. Now I am suffering.

Heavy desire? Light desire? You are talking preference vs addiction. To really get a feel for this concept check out an amazing book called The Handbook to Higher Consciousness, - Ken Keyes


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Icelander]
    #9103573 - 10/20/08 12:36 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You are agreeing with me here.

So lets change the words and use preference vs addiction.  I prefer to get some pussy tonight because I feel horny but because it's unavailable I let it go and continue to find things to do with my time. Now if I'm a sex addict I can't let go of this need and it drives me crazy because I can't get it right now. Now I am suffering.

Heavy desire? Light desire? You are talking preference vs addiction. To really get a feel for this concept check out an amazing book called The Handbook to Higher Consciousness, - Ken Keyes




I actually bought a copy of it a long while back & enjoyed it, i wasn't personally feeling the "12 step program to enlightenment" where he was basically saying "memorize this & you'll be free" which i dont agree with at all, but if theres one thing i walked away with as a very powerful reminder was its suggestion of having preferences over attachments :thumbup:

I think whats also important is that he stated at the beggining of the book that everything he has learned & recorded in the book was derived from the Buddhas 4 noble truths, which was nice that he gave props where due


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Chronic7]
    #9103631 - 10/20/08 12:50 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"memorize this & you'll be free"

I think he stated that you could memorize them so you could use them:wink: They would have to become working programs within your everyday experience for them to be effective.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Icelander]
    #9103674 - 10/20/08 01:00 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I dont think he was wrong for it or anything, i just dont think people need new belief systems, saying that some people may benefit & even be at the stage of having to adpot a new belief system in order to find peace, so who am i to critisize!


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Chronic7]
    #9103681 - 10/20/08 01:04 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Don't you think what you post here is a belief system? Who needs it then? You seem to think we do or you would not post it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Icelander]
    #9103859 - 10/20/08 01:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I dont feel what i post is a belief system, it may be taken to be a belief system as maybe i repeat myself? But i have no control over how others perceive my words.

I also dont really feel other people need it, i really dont have much interpretation about what i do i just do it, something compells me to share, i dont feel i need to justify myself further then that to be honest? Why justify anything? Just live?

Why does it have to be so complicated?

I speak you speak, we speak! :shrug:


One man could help another off the floor only be told by the man on the floor he doesnt want any help, then an onlooker asks why did you even try to help?

Why not?

I enjoy the play of this forum & feel as though people challenge what you say which is  good to widen the ability to communicate with a wider audience & for the few that PM me thanking me for my posts i find its somehow worth it?


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Chronic7]
    #9103930 - 10/20/08 02:06 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
I actually bought a copy of it a long while back & enjoyed it, i wasn't personally feeling the "12 step program to enlightenment" where he was basically saying "memorize this & you'll be free" which i dont agree with at all, but if theres one thing i walked away with as a very powerful reminder was its suggestion of having preferences over attachments :thumbup:





I personally found it a little offsetting as well, but it was designed that way as a model for those who would not have been so capable at the time of realizing the concepts presented and effectively begin utilizing them without some sort of regimen to follow. It is a really great book though. :thumbup:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Chronic7]
    #9103957 - 10/20/08 02:11 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
I dont feel what i post is a belief system, it may be taken to be a belief system as maybe i repeat myself? But i have no control over how others perceive my words.

I also dont really feel other people need it, i really dont have much interpretation about what i do i just do it, something compells me to share, i dont feel i need to justify myself further then that to be honest? Why justify anything? Just live?

Why does it have to be so complicated?

I speak you speak, we speak! :shrug:


One man could help another off the floor only be told by the man on the floor he doesnt want any help, then an onlooker asks why did you even try to help?

Why not?

I enjoy the play of this forum & feel as though people challenge what you say which is  good to widen the ability to communicate with a wider audience & for the few that PM me thanking me for my posts i find its somehow worth it?




It's complicated because some folk aren't honest with themselves or others. This may be a problem with maturity and awareness. :shrug:

I dont feel what i post is a belief system,

Really then what is it and how does it differ from beliefs?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Icelander]
    #9104277 - 10/20/08 03:32 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Okay you could say that i believe that asking 'who/what am i?' is the most important question, so maybe thats my belief system?

Or you could say that my belief system is that seeing reality without adding concepts, is really seeing reality. But even to look at that, beliefs & concepts are the same thing.

So really its a beliefless belief system :wink:


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Chronic7]
    #9104395 - 10/20/08 04:06 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

So really its a beliefless belief system :wink:



Nice try but of course it makes no sense.:nono:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Icelander]
    #9104401 - 10/20/08 04:08 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I'd like to introduce you all to my briefless belief system. It'll change the world.


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9104409 - 10/20/08 04:10 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I'm all rears.:ass:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Icelander]
    #9104431 - 10/20/08 04:14 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

First you must abandon all attempts to conceal your fanity.


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9104439 - 10/20/08 04:16 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Shirley.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Icelander]
    #9104442 - 10/20/08 04:17 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

:rofl:


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