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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9092219 - 10/17/08 05:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

It "requires"? :what: I think you're in error here.
This concept is nothing more than an accurate observation of aspects of the human mind, and how emotional attachment becomes an obstacle in the way of happiness (total acceptance).


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9092222 - 10/17/08 05:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
However, with the advent of technology and sophisticated computer modeling and neuroscience, we will eventually be able to plug our minds into a completely virtual simulation--where pleasure, omnipotence, and everything that we want will be able to be instantly satisfied.

What's wrong with this solution to the problem of suffering?  Instead of removing desire, why not satisfy every desire?




Because it is not the desire that causes suffering, it's the attachment.  Dependence on a virtual simulation to fulfill all desires would create a very strong attachment.  It would train a person to need very strongly every single thing he desires, rendering him childlike and incompetent if he were ever disconnected. 

IMO it is unlikely there will ever be a technology that can fulfill every desire.  The mind formulates desires from the body's needs... how is this virtual simulator supposed to eat for me when there is no food available?  Does it pee for me?  Or does it just make starvation and rupturing bladders pleasurable?

Attachments are usually problematic, but there are desires and attachments that are essential to survival.  If I found walking in front of a bus as fulfilling as standing on the sidewalk and waiting for it to pass, I wouldn't live long.  But what would life mean to us then anyway?  Why NOT just kill yourself, if the only point in life is to avoid suffering?  It's interesting to think about.  Suffering seems to make life worthwhile.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9092225 - 10/17/08 05:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

There is more to material existence than humanity.  We may be able to greatly extend the human lifespan, but we will not be able to eliminate death NOR will we be able to eliminate the impermanent nature of all material things, relationships, jobs, emotional states, etc... etc...

As long as "good" things can end, and "bad" things can persist, we will experience desire/aversion.  The question is how we will handle these experiences.  This would apply to the desire to be free from one's grasping nature, as well.  If we become attached (grasp) to the idea of NOT grasping, we will experience suffering.

I like to discuss this as the difference between jogging behind a car & being dragged behind a car. :smile:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9092256 - 10/17/08 05:29 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
It "requires"? :what: I think you're in error here.
This concept is nothing more than an accurate observation of aspects of the human mind, and how emotional attachment becomes an obstacle in the way of happiness (total acceptance).




Right, so one consequently seeks to avoid emotional attachment (therefore desiring not to desire.)

Quote:

WhiskeyClone said:
Because it is not the desire that causes suffering, it's the attachment.  Dependence on a virtual simulation to fulfill all desires would create a very strong attachment.  It would train a person to need very strongly every single thing he desires, rendering him childlike and incompetent if he were ever disconnected. 

IMO it is unlikely there will ever be a technology that can fulfill every desire.  The mind formulates desires from the body's needs... how is this virtual simulator supposed to eat for me when there is no food available?  Does it pee for me?  Or does it just make starvation and rupturing bladders pleasurable?

Attachments are usually problematic, but there are desires and attachments that are essential to survival.  If I found walking in front of a bus as fulfilling as standing on the sidewalk and waiting for it to pass, I wouldn't live long.  But what would life mean to us then anyway?  Why NOT just kill yourself, if the only point in life is to avoid suffering?  It's interesting to think about.  Suffering seems to make life worthwhile.




Of course the scenario is rendered worthless if the person in question is ever disconnected--but let's suppose that it were set up so that you're getting fed intravenously, all your bodily wastes are being taken care of--and you'd never know when you were going to die.  Surely this satisfies all desires and eliminates all suffering until you die (which is the ultimate goal of Buddhism, no?)

Quote:

Veritas said:
We may be able to greatly extend the human lifespan, but we will not be able to eliminate death




I think you vastly underestimate the eventual power of technology.  Just wait 'till the Singularity...  :wink:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9092283 - 10/17/08 05:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Surely this satisfies all desires and eliminates all suffering until you die (which is the ultimate goal of Buddhism, no?)

no


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deranger]
    #9092292 - 10/17/08 05:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

OK, perhaps not ultimate goal, but one of their goals is to eliminate suffering.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9092306 - 10/17/08 05:38 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

another one is to raise consciousness.  living in a artificial reality seems to be going against this.


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9092346 - 10/17/08 05:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Of course the scenario is rendered worthless if the person in question is ever disconnected--but let's suppose that it were set up so that you're getting fed intravenously, all your bodily wastes are being taken care of--and you'd never know when you were going to die.  Surely this satisfies all desires and eliminates all suffering until you die (which is the ultimate goal of Buddhism, no?)





:strokebeard:

As perceived by a person who is not yet 'plugged in', what would make them want to live out the remainder of their precious lives lying in a bed with catheter and shit tube? And who maintains all this apparatus?  If people are hooked up until they die, who would convince anybody it is worthwhile?  Would you change your friend's piss bag every day just because he decided to give up on life?


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9092405 - 10/17/08 05:54 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Right, so one consequently seeks to avoid emotional attachment (therefore desiring not to desire.)





One can be aware that it is more preferable to break the circle of emotional attachment without turning it into something non-constructive (aka obsessing over it, feeling like a wreck & worthless in the moment you observe that you still have emotional attachments).


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #9092605 - 10/17/08 06:25 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Exactly!  :smile:  You don't desire NOT to desire, you accept that you WILL desire, and that you have options available to you for how you will respond to it.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9092721 - 10/17/08 06:46 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
According to Buddhism, (correct me if I'm wrong), suffering is a result of desire. 

{-----------break----------}

We can't satisfy every craving that we have, and therefore we become unhappy.  The only way out of this dilemma is to remove all manifestations of craving and desire that we have.




well I think you have the right idea up to the {-----break---}.

at that point the insight about the connection of suffering to desire takes an extrapolated turn into non-buddhist territory.

desire and clinging are related to suffering but suffering is not due to satisfaction of desire being withheld. that little therefore is a step in the wrong direction.

the insight about grasping, clinging, desire, and attachment is kind of a fractal observation - it is an observation about a thing that keeps happenning on all levels of body mind and spirit.

pain and suffering are not exactly caused by grasping etc. but by grasping out of scope of what is suitable. this is the fractal that occurs on all levels.
the problem is not solved by ending grasping etc.
instead, the problem is solved by right understanding of what is suitable. right thought, right speech, right action, right meditation, summarized as the middle way. AKA the path of freedom.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9092731 - 10/17/08 06:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

So one is allowed to grasp, but not too much?

And WhiskeyClone, have you read Circuit of Heaven?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9093001 - 10/17/08 08:08 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

right grasping


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9093033 - 10/17/08 08:16 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

or how about... mindful grasping


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deranger]
    #9093093 - 10/17/08 08:34 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

So how does one determine what is mindful grasping and what isn't?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9093219 - 10/17/08 08:57 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

being aware that you are grasping, versus grasping without knowing.  sometimes we're like robots and do things without even really knowing.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deCypher]
    #9093249 - 10/17/08 09:06 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
According to Buddhism, (correct me if I'm wrong), suffering is a result of desire.  We can't satisfy every craving that we have, and therefore we become unhappy.  The only way out of this dilemma is to remove all manifestations of craving and desire that we have.

However, with the advent of technology and sophisticated computer modeling and neuroscience, we will eventually be able to plug our minds into a completely virtual simulation--where pleasure, omnipotence, and everything that we want will be able to be instantly satisfied.

What's wrong with this solution to the problem of suffering?  Instead of removing desire, why not satisfy every desire?




I believe this to be incorrect. Suffering is not caused by desire but attachment to fulfilling the desire. Preference VS Addiction. Desire makes life work.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Icelander]
    #9093286 - 10/17/08 09:16 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Suffering is not caused by desire but attachment to fulfilling the desire.

i've always defined desire as a kind of attachment and habitual mental process.  is this wrong?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: deranger]
    #9093302 - 10/17/08 09:19 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I believe it is. Desire gets us out of bed each morning. But desire can come as a preference which does not alter the emotions if not fulfilled or as an addiction that causes emotional withdrawal symptoms. (suffering)


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisiblederanger
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Re: Buddhism and desire. [Re: Icelander]
    #9093342 - 10/17/08 09:32 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Desire gets us out of bed each morning.

that still doesn't make it not a habitual process.

but i agree with the rest of what you said.

wasn't it Kesey who spoke of this?


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