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OfflineSomeScienceStuff
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DMT linked to the spiritual.
    #9086013 - 10/16/08 11:12 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

so i was talking to a friend while smoking at his house last weekend. my friend is a complete nutcase. he wants to move to the mountains he is 'force sensitive" he even has a cloak his dad who is a pegan imbuned with magical powers so that he can change form in it like the hobbits did in lord of the rings. he is insane. i blame the mad amounts of rainbow acid he used to use. But while he was telling me that we were created by an alien race and he is the chosen one. he told me about this drug dmt (Dimethyltryptamine) i had never heard anything about it. but he told me the trip last for 15 mins roughly and it takes you to another world. i came home and let my research begin.

I know that alot of you will not agree with my views on this subject but o well.

So the pineal gland contains this stuff dmt. the things is it isnt released naturaly unless there is enough stress to trigger this reaction. As in death times of starvation. while you dream your pineal gland also release some small amounts of dmt and that is why you dream "supposedly" it is what your body puts out to smooth the transition from death to another world or whatever happens after death.

I have never personaly taken dmt. but from everything i have read on it and the numerous trip reports i have read. They all seem to be similar in the sense that everybody has this feeling that their body is somewhere completely different. A complete seperation from mind and body. They then continue to go into roughly to types of trips. they end up in this white place and their is communication between you and some sort of being. They are all described differently. or they are in this black place and they think they dead.

I totally believe that you are actually communicating with some sort of being that isnt of this world. i believe that the beings you communicate with are all demons. and demons arent all dark demons. i have a pastor friend who told me he has casted out light demons before. he said the communication between you and these beings starts to be unclear once the questions of god and the bible are brought up.

this post really has no reason. lol i was just extremely intrigued by this drug and wanted to know everybodys thoughts on hallucinogenics


--------------------
"You need to stop preaching and start doing, stop lecturing and start experiencing, stop whining and start contributing. Otherwise everyone else will realize what I have come to realize... the simple fact that you are a fraud." shroober

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OfflinePilzeEssen


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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: SomeScienceStuff]
    #9086032 - 10/16/08 11:18 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

smoke it.


--------------------
"The soul has greater need of the ideal than of the real. It is by the real that we exist, it is by the ideal that we live."

If you want to get a hold of me, my email address is in my profile. Just click on my screen name. I got banned from using private messages cause I didn't follow the rules... :frown:

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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: SomeScienceStuff]
    #9086105 - 10/16/08 11:33 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

the pineal gland-dmt thing is just a hypothesis

there is no scientific/medical data to back this up.  dr. strassman even admits this in his book, but most people like to overlook it.  he did, however, find microgram traces of dmt in human blood.  there is no explanation yet of how it got there, but it is there

unfortunately i do not have my copy of dmt: the spirit molecule, or i would find you the page number



definitely try it


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

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OfflineSomeScienceStuff
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: demiu5]
    #9086482 - 10/16/08 12:50 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

i still believe it man. god created everything for a reason and he created a way to interact spiritually with holy or unholy deities. tho he says in the bible that there is only one way to go about those things the right way.

But wouldnt it make sense since he gave us free will. that we have the will to over ride his authority and do things on our own. like contact with spirits?


--------------------
"You need to stop preaching and start doing, stop lecturing and start experiencing, stop whining and start contributing. Otherwise everyone else will realize what I have come to realize... the simple fact that you are a fraud." shroober

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: SomeScienceStuff]
    #9086572 - 10/16/08 01:05 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

LSD is not to blame for your friend. He is fully responsible for his present condition.

Most people try and lay blame everywhere but themselves. It's an immature and self indulgent stance.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineSomeScienceStuff
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: Icelander]
    #9086590 - 10/16/08 01:07 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

lol i was makin a joke bro. he is totally cool. he just has smoked alot of meth and crack in his day. he has done about everything possible. been to prison for 10 years. and he is just a weird guy now because of it.

he knows it tho

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: SomeScienceStuff]
    #9086721 - 10/16/08 01:28 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Then he's living the good life in his own way. :thumbup: I think we're all a little cracked. Some more then others. Ultimately the difference is slight IMO.:crazy2::monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineSomeScienceStuff
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: Icelander]
    #9086752 - 10/16/08 01:34 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

yeah. i agree.

i was just interested when we started talkin about dmt

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: SomeScienceStuff]
    #9087181 - 10/16/08 03:17 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

So you say your friend is crazy.

Would you say someone is crazy if they worship Jesus?

I don't think your friends ideas are absurd, just different. So different = crazy?

If you really want to learn about DMT read both of Strassman's books. Your not going to get consistent information on a forum.

You can also find some interesting accounts here:
http://deoxy.org/hs_cehn.htm

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9087594 - 10/16/08 05:19 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Would you say someone is crazy if they worship Jesus?

Certainly. I think it's demented to worship anyone at all.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: Icelander]
    #9087652 - 10/16/08 05:32 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I worship myself.

Gives me a nice boost of self-confidence.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: deCypher]
    #9087690 - 10/16/08 05:40 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Certainly better than worshiping anyone else. At least you have some idea who you are.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: Icelander]
    #9087774 - 10/16/08 05:53 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Would you say someone is crazy if they worship Jesus?

Certainly. I think it's demented to worship anyone at all. 




The point I was making was that there is a huge consensus that worshiping a main stream religion is perfectly normal.

Let people have their gurus. No one is crazy.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9087786 - 10/16/08 05:56 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Or everyone's fucking crazy.

I know I'm not the most sane monkey in the looney barrel.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9087805 - 10/16/08 05:58 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Would you say someone is crazy if they worship Jesus?

Certainly. I think it's demented to worship anyone at all. 




The point I was making was that there is a huge consensus that worshiping a main stream religion is perfectly normal.

Let people have their gurus. No one is crazy.




I disagree. I think everyone is crazy.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: Icelander]
    #9088143 - 10/16/08 07:06 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Would you say someone is crazy if they worship Jesus?

Certainly. I think it's demented to worship anyone at all. 




The point I was making was that there is a huge consensus that worshiping a main stream religion is perfectly normal.

Let people have their gurus. No one is crazy.




I disagree. I think everyone is crazy.




I could agree with that. I think culture is pretty crazy. Terrence McKenna said it best, "Culture tells you what neurotic behaviors are acceptable." Thats paraphrased a bit...

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OfflineSomeScienceStuff
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9088528 - 10/16/08 08:24 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

lol no my friend really is crazy. like i totally understand his views on how we are created by an alien race and we were made as slaves for them. and one day they are coming back and he said he is the chosen one. like its cool and all. where he lost me was when he started taking out his imbuned cape that allows his to change form. he said he is force sensitive and his dad is a jedi knight. and he is dead fuckin serious. i took away all his star wars games lol. his wife said that 'magic cloak' is just a piece of carpet they found in a dumpster... but that kid is cool and he has always been a pall to me. nothin against him at all. i just think some screws came loose within his life. he is still cool as fuck. and maybe he is right. the dude has a reason why he believes everything so i am always down to listen


--------------------
"You need to stop preaching and start doing, stop lecturing and start experiencing, stop whining and start contributing. Otherwise everyone else will realize what I have come to realize... the simple fact that you are a fraud." shroober

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Offlinezouden
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9094071 - 10/17/08 09:54 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
If you really want to learn about DMT read both of Strassman's books. Your not going to get consistent information on a forum.




I'd go even further and say don't read anything by Strassman. He doesn't seem to be particularly concerned with evidence. Where did he get the idea that DMT is released when you die? How on earth did he measure that?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: zouden]
    #9094089 - 10/17/08 09:58 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

He didn't measure it.  He admits that the ideas he has written about are merely speculation, and meant to inspire others to conduct the actual research.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: Veritas]
    #9094113 - 10/17/08 10:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Oh good, that's much more reasonable. You can see my problem though - obviously people read it and assume that it's true, enough for me to think that he's actually outright claiming it. In that case the problem isn't really with Strassman, it's with the people who read his work with an uncritical eye.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: zouden]
    #9094120 - 10/17/08 10:04 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, Strassman has been quite clear about the non-basis of his ideas. :grin:  The research he conducted involved giving about 400 doses of DMT to 60 volunteers over the period of the study.  He spoke to the volunteers about their experiences, and invented his own ideas about the pineal gland, the soul being "injected" into the body at the 49th day of conception, the release of DMT at death, and so on.  He has absolutely no scientific support for these ideas--they are pure conjecture.

Since his book has been widely promoted as "scientific research," many readers assume that his ideas are actually supported by scientific evidence.

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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: zouden]
    #9094245 - 10/17/08 10:31 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Oh good, that's much more reasonable. You can see my problem though - obviously people read it and assume that it's true, enough for me to think that he's actually outright claiming it. In that case the problem isn't really with Strassman, it's with the people who read his work with an uncritical eye.





because those people are idiots

he states that these are merely his hypotheses and that no research has been done in those areas.  again, people like to either skip over or forget about that part


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

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OfflineDreamSignals
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: demiu5]
    #9094465 - 10/17/08 11:23 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Actually I am convinced that DMT is produced naturally in the brain.

I did a research paper on mystical states of consciousness, a scientific report on Meditation and the Brain found trace amounts of an LSD-like compound in the brain, along with Melatonin, another similar tryptamine. Melatonin is produced in the pineal, and also plays a role in REM sleep cycles.

It's not too hard to hypothesize that using breathing exercises, yoga, meditation, fasting, what-have-you, a human being would be capable of lowering his metabolic production of amylase, which is the enzyme responsible for breaking down DMT in the blood (thus why you take an MAOI with DMT when consumed orally) and in turn having a mystical out of body experience.

My psychology teacher seemed to like this theory. Who knows, maybe the Extra-terrestrials his subjects were conversing with in his book know more about the human brain than we do.

I also don't think it's entirely impossible that we were indeed, the product of another form of life more advance than us. After all, we can create life in petri dish's, they just chose a bigger one...


--------------------

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. (93)
Love is the law, love under will. (93 93/93)

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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: DreamSignals]
    #9094565 - 10/17/08 11:45 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

most people don't outright deny it, and some of the precursors to n,n-dmt are produced in the brain, but there has not been any medical finding connecting dmt to the pineal gland


however, dmt has been found in ug amounts in the bloodstream.  still no explanation for this, but it is an endogenous chemical (ain't it great, every human is carrying and producing a schedule one substance)



however, if you had read my first post in this thread, i wouldn't have to be repeating any of this


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

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OfflineCptnGarden
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: demiu5]
    #9094706 - 10/18/08 12:13 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

DMT has been detected in the human body, but to science there is no clear view of why its been detected.

many people theorize and hypothesize, and in the end the only thing that stands true is that its produced naturally in your body.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: CptnGarden]
    #9094812 - 10/18/08 12:41 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

It binds to dedicated receptors in the amygdala (TA receptors), most probably to modulate anxiety.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: zouden]
    #9095373 - 10/18/08 06:39 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

dmt natural in the brain is not science,
one scientist only Dr. Strassman, has hypothesised that it might be there.
no scientist has EVER found it there.
it is not endogenous!!

thousands of non-scientists have written books and papers about it being there simply because of richard's comments, and it is not even his field of expertise, he is just an enthusiast!

many of those people will swear that it really was scientifically discovered there.
just because they want it to be true.

now hundreds of thousands or millions of people just a shade less intelligent perhaps totally believe that DMT is the Spirit Molecule. SOME ARE DOCTORS AND LAWYERS, JUDGES AND PSYCHIATRISTS. I would think they would check their references.

this is the attack from mars by Orson wells on the radio all over again
mass hysteria at the slightest provocation - they just want to believe.



there are no references for scientific bioassay of naturally occuring DMT in human brain tissue.
none at all.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Offlinezouden
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9095645 - 10/18/08 10:02 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: zouden]
    #9095660 - 10/18/08 10:06 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

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Offlinezouden
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9095668 - 10/18/08 10:08 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Endogenous hallucinogens as ligands of the trace amine receptors: A possible role in sensory perception
Quote:

While the endogenous hallucinogens, N,N-dimethyltryptamine, 5-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyl-tryptamine and 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine, have been acknowledged as naturally occurring components of the mammalian body for decades, their biological function remains as elusive now as it was at the time of their discovery. The recent discovery of the trace amine associated receptors and the activity of DMT and other hallucinogenic compounds at these receptor sites leads to the hypothesis that the endogenous hallucinogens act as neurotransmitters of a subclass of these trace amine receptors...




Endogenous psychoactive tryptamines reconsidered: an anxiolytic role for dimethyltryptamine
Quote:

The presence of the potent hallucinogenic psychoactive chemical N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in the human body has puzzled scientists for decades. Endogenous DMT was investigated in the 1960s and 1970s and it was proposed that DMT was involved in psychosis and schizophrenia...




The Potential of Trace Amines and Their Receptors for Treating Neurological and Psychiatric Diseases
Quote:

a family of 18 mammalian receptors has recently been identified that appear to exhibit selectivity toward the so-called trace amines.




--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: zouden]
    #9095724 - 10/18/08 10:35 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Oh good, that's much more reasonable. You can see my problem though - obviously people read it and assume that it's true, enough for me to think that he's actually outright claiming it. In that case the problem isn't really with Strassman, it's with the people who read his work with an uncritical eye.




Man, this is usually the problem. Most people distort what they read (I'm often no exception) to align with their subjective belief system.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9095890 - 10/18/08 11:40 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
no scientist has EVER found it there.
it is not endogenous!!




Yeah, according to those links that Zouden posted, there's definitely evidence for endogenous DMT although we're not sure of its function.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: zouden]
    #9095915 - 10/18/08 11:48 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Endogenous hallucinogens as ligands of the trace amine receptors: A possible role in sensory perception
Quote:

While the endogenous hallucinogens, N,N-dimethyltryptamine, 5-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyl-tryptamine and 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine, have been acknowledged as naturally occurring components of the mammalian body for decades, their biological function remains as elusive now as it was at the time of their discovery. The recent discovery of the trace amine associated receptors and the activity of DMT and other hallucinogenic compounds at these receptor sites leads to the hypothesis that the endogenous hallucinogens act as neurotransmitters of a subclass of these trace amine receptors...




Endogenous psychoactive tryptamines reconsidered: an anxiolytic role for dimethyltryptamine
Quote:

The presence of the potent hallucinogenic psychoactive chemical N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in the human body has puzzled scientists for decades. Endogenous DMT was investigated in the 1960s and 1970s and it was proposed that DMT was involved in psychosis and schizophrenia...




The Potential of Trace Amines and Their Receptors for Treating Neurological and Psychiatric Diseases
Quote:

a family of 18 mammalian receptors has recently been identified that appear to exhibit selectivity toward the so-called trace amines.







these are not scientific papers that indicate DMT is natural or endogenous
they are merely papers that use scientific language to say that such chemicals might occur.
this is like saying there might be life on URANUS or at least on TITAN, and then computing the water content of rock.
or maybe WMD in IRAQ?

in none of these documents has any actual BIOASSAY of DMT been accounted.
that is called hypothesis, it is not scientific fact, and no experiments have been contrived or performed and then published which corroborate any facts about the occurrance.

all you have is eloquent echoes of the possibility.
the acceptance of conjecture like this seems very odd among people who can pronounce or at least block copy words like
N,N-dimethyltryptamine, 5-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyl-tryptamine and 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine
which are not ENDOGENOUS even though you can quote irresponsible scientists who have no proof but string those words together as if they were factual.

golly! this is like Mckenna telling us all about DNA, or like George Bush leading America.


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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9095933 - 10/18/08 11:52 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

DMT has been found in every mammal they've tested for it.

I think its a pretty good hypothesis that its naturally produced in our brain. Why not in the pineal gland?

I think DMT is a part of the puzzle, but not the sole "spirit molecule."

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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9095942 - 10/18/08 11:56 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
DMT has been found in every mammal they've tested for it.

I think its a pretty good hypothesis that its naturally produced in our brain. Why not in the pineal gland?

I think DMT is a part of the puzzle, but not the sole "spirit molecule."




again, NO ACTUAL REFERENCES this is just echoes and heresay.
thank god Halloween is 'round the corner,
that's the right set and setting for these fireside stories


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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9096898 - 10/18/08 04:36 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Does http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/132/2/139 not concur that DMT is endogenously found in CSF? 

And from Potentially hallucinogenic 5-hydroxytryptamine receptor ligands bufotenine and dimethyltryptamine in blood and tissues, from Scandinavian Journal of Clinical and Laboratory Investigation, Volume 65, Issue 3 April 2005 , pages 189 - 199:

Quote:

Bufotenine and N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) are hallucinogenic dimethylated indolethylamines (DMIAs) formed from serotonin and tryptamine by the enzyme indolethylamine N-methyltransferase (INMT) ubiquitously present in non-neural tissues. In mammals, endogenous bufotenine and DMT have been identified only in human urine. The DMIAs bind effectively to 5HT receptors and their administration causes a variety of autonomic effects, which may reflect their actual physiological function. Endogenous levels of bufotenine and DMT in blood and a number of animal and human tissues were determined using highly sensitive and specific quantitative mass spectrometric techniques. A new finding was the detection of large amounts of bufotenine in stools, which may be an indication of its role in intestinal function. It is suggested that fecal and urinary bufotenine originate from epithelial cells of the intestine and the kidney, respectively, although the possibility of their synthesis by intestinal bacteria cannot be excluded. Only small amounts of the DMIAs were found in somatic or neural tissues and none in blood. This can be explained by rapid catabolism of the DMIAs by mitochondrial monoamino-oxidase or by the fact that the dimethylated products of serotonin and tryptamine are not formed in significant amounts in most mammalian tissues despite the widespread presence of INMT in tissues.




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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9097267 - 10/18/08 06:35 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
these are not scientific papers that indicate DMT is natural or endogenous
they are merely papers that use scientific language to say that such chemicals might occur.
this is like saying there might be life on URANUS or at least on TITAN, and then computing the water content of rock.
or maybe WMD in IRAQ?

in none of these documents has any actual BIOASSAY of DMT been accounted.
that is called hypothesis, it is not scientific fact, and no experiments have been contrived or performed and then published which corroborate any facts about the occurrance.

all you have is eloquent echoes of the possibility.
the acceptance of conjecture like this seems very odd among people who can pronounce or at least block copy words like
N,N-dimethyltryptamine, 5-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyl-tryptamine and 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine
which are not ENDOGENOUS even though you can quote irresponsible scientists who have no proof but string those words together as if they were factual.




That's quite insulting. Here's some classics from the Journal of Biochemical Medicine. You don't have to read the abstracts if it doesn't agree with what you believe because obviously they're just putting words together and haven't done any actual experiments.

Gas chromatographic-mass spectrometric isotope dilution assay for N,N-dimethyltryptamine in human plasma
Biochemical Medicine, Volume 8, Issue 1, August 1973, Pages 105-113
R. W. Walker, H. S. Ahn, G. Albers-Schönberg, L. R. Mandel, W. J. A. Vandenheuvel
Quote:

An isotope dilution assay for the determination of N,N-dimethyltryptamine in human plasma has been developed. Dideutero-N,N-dimethyltryptamine is added to the plasma as a carrier, and also serves as an internal standard in a gas chromatographic-mass spectrometric analysis of the final isolate. Mass spectrometric isotope intensity ratios for two ions are used to calculate the amount of endogenous N,N-dimethyltryptamine in the isolate at a sensitivity limit of 0.5 ± 0.2 ng/ml plasma.




A gas chromatographic procedure for determining N, N-dimethyltryptamine and N-monomethyltryptamine in urine using a nitrogen detector
Biochemical Medicine, Volume 18, Issue 3, December 1977, Pages 410-419
M. C. H. Oon, R. Rodnight
Quote:

A gas chromatographic procedure for determining N, N-dimethyltryptamine and N-monomethyltryptamine in urine is described. The specificity of the procedure was validated by gc/ms. Analysis of urine samples from mentally ill subjects confirmed an earlier qualitative study showing significant tendency for dimethyltryptamine excretion to be increased in psychotic subjects.




The in vitro identification of dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in mammalian brain and its characterization as a possible endogenous neuroregulatory agent
Biochemical Medicine, Volume 18, Issue 2, October 1977, Pages 164-183
Samuel T. Christian, Robert Harrison, Elizabeth Quayle, John Pagel, John Monti
Quote:

The psychotomimetic agent dimethyltryptamine (DMT) has been identified as an endogenous compound in the central nervous system of rodents using a sensitive electron capture gas chromatographic technique. DMT along with its proposed precursor, tryptamine, were identified and quantitated as the heptafluorobutyryl derivatives. A specific high affinity binding site on synaptosomal membranes has been proposed for DMT. This proposal is based on equilibrium dialysis experiments which indicate that DMT at a concentration of 1 × 10−5 image will displace d-LSD on isolated membranes but will not displace bound serotonin at the same concentration. When DMT interacts with the synaptosomal membranes at a concentration of 5 × 10−10 image, the membrane-bound enzyme adenylate cyclase is stimulated such that adenosine3′, 5′-monophosphate (cAMP) is produced at a rate of 100 pmole/min/mg of protein (2.3 times the endogenous rate). It has also been shown that its presumed precursor, tryptamine, inhibits this process. LSD appears to exhibit a high affinity for the proposed DMT binding site but seems to have a low intrinsic activity. From data obtained in this study it has been postulated that DMT may have in vivo activity similar to those proposed for neurotransmitters or other neuroregulatory agents. These data further suggest that at least one mode of action of d-LSD may be the displacement of DMT from its binding site on the neuron.



I presume that article was written before the serotonin receptor subtypes were identified - that hypothesis for the mechanism of DMT & LSD is very different to what we know now! :laugh:

Anyway, I think we've established that DMT is endogenous and can move on...


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: deCypher]
    #9098023 - 10/18/08 09:56 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Does http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/132/2/139 not concur that DMT is endogenously found in CSF? 

And from Potentially hallucinogenic 5-hydroxytryptamine receptor ligands bufotenine and dimethyltryptamine in blood and tissues, from Scandinavian Journal of Clinical and Laboratory Investigation, Volume 65, Issue 3 April 2005 , pages 189 - 199:

Quote:

Bufotenine and N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) are hallucinogenic dimethylated indolethylamines (DMIAs) formed from serotonin and tryptamine by the enzyme indolethylamine N-methyltransferase (INMT) ubiquitously present in non-neural tissues. In mammals, endogenous bufotenine and DMT have been identified only in human urine. The DMIAs bind effectively to 5HT receptors and their administration causes a variety of autonomic effects, which may reflect their actual physiological function. Endogenous levels of bufotenine and DMT in blood and a number of animal and human tissues were determined using highly sensitive and specific quantitative mass spectrometric techniques. A new finding was the detection of large amounts of bufotenine in stools, which may be an indication of its role in intestinal function. It is suggested that fecal and urinary bufotenine originate from epithelial cells of the intestine and the kidney, respectively, although the possibility of their synthesis by intestinal bacteria cannot be excluded. Only small amounts of the DMIAs were found in somatic or neural tissues and none in blood. This can be explained by rapid catabolism of the DMIAs by mitochondrial monoamino-oxidase or by the fact that the dimethylated products of serotonin and tryptamine are not formed in significant amounts in most mammalian tissues despite the widespread presence of INMT in tissues.






that is very interesting
I would like to see the whole paper,
and would like to see any other related research.


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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9098035 - 10/18/08 09:59 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I just did a Pubmed search on endogenous DMT... There were quite a few studies, as well as the ones that Zouden posted.  :shrug:


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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: zouden]
    #9098072 - 10/18/08 10:11 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
these are not scientific papers that indicate DMT is natural or endogenous
they are merely papers that use scientific language to say that such chemicals might occur.
this is like saying there might be life on URANUS or at least on TITAN, and then computing the water content of rock.
or maybe WMD in IRAQ?

in none of these documents has any actual BIOASSAY of DMT been accounted.
that is called hypothesis, it is not scientific fact, and no experiments have been contrived or performed and then published which corroborate any facts about the occurrance.

all you have is eloquent echoes of the possibility.
the acceptance of conjecture like this seems very odd among people who can pronounce or at least block copy words like
N,N-dimethyltryptamine, 5-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyl-tryptamine and 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine
which are not ENDOGENOUS even though you can quote irresponsible scientists who have no proof but string those words together as if they were factual.




That's quite insulting. Here's some classics from the Journal of Biochemical Medicine. You don't have to read the abstracts if it doesn't agree with what you believe because obviously they're just putting words together and haven't done any actual experiments.

Gas chromatographic-mass spectrometric isotope dilution assay for N,N-dimethyltryptamine in human plasma
Biochemical Medicine, Volume 8, Issue 1, August 1973, Pages 105-113
R. W. Walker, H. S. Ahn, G. Albers-Schönberg, L. R. Mandel, W. J. A. Vandenheuvel
Quote:

An isotope dilution assay for the determination of N,N-dimethyltryptamine in human plasma has been developed. Dideutero-N,N-dimethyltryptamine is added to the plasma as a carrier, and also serves as an internal standard in a gas chromatographic-mass spectrometric analysis of the final isolate. Mass spectrometric isotope intensity ratios for two ions are used to calculate the amount of endogenous N,N-dimethyltryptamine in the isolate at a sensitivity limit of 0.5 ± 0.2 ng/ml plasma.




A gas chromatographic procedure for determining N, N-dimethyltryptamine and N-monomethyltryptamine in urine using a nitrogen detector
Biochemical Medicine, Volume 18, Issue 3, December 1977, Pages 410-419
M. C. H. Oon, R. Rodnight
Quote:

A gas chromatographic procedure for determining N, N-dimethyltryptamine and N-monomethyltryptamine in urine is described. The specificity of the procedure was validated by gc/ms. Analysis of urine samples from mentally ill subjects confirmed an earlier qualitative study showing significant tendency for dimethyltryptamine excretion to be increased in psychotic subjects.




The in vitro identification of dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in mammalian brain and its characterization as a possible endogenous neuroregulatory agent
Biochemical Medicine, Volume 18, Issue 2, October 1977, Pages 164-183
Samuel T. Christian, Robert Harrison, Elizabeth Quayle, John Pagel, John Monti
Quote:

The psychotomimetic agent dimethyltryptamine (DMT) has been identified as an endogenous compound in the central nervous system of rodents using a sensitive electron capture gas chromatographic technique. DMT along with its proposed precursor, tryptamine, were identified and quantitated as the heptafluorobutyryl derivatives. A specific high affinity binding site on synaptosomal membranes has been proposed for DMT. This proposal is based on equilibrium dialysis experiments which indicate that DMT at a concentration of 1 × 10−5 image will displace d-LSD on isolated membranes but will not displace bound serotonin at the same concentration. When DMT interacts with the synaptosomal membranes at a concentration of 5 × 10−10 image, the membrane-bound enzyme adenylate cyclase is stimulated such that adenosine3′, 5′-monophosphate (cAMP) is produced at a rate of 100 pmole/min/mg of protein (2.3 times the endogenous rate). It has also been shown that its presumed precursor, tryptamine, inhibits this process. LSD appears to exhibit a high affinity for the proposed DMT binding site but seems to have a low intrinsic activity. From data obtained in this study it has been postulated that DMT may have in vivo activity similar to those proposed for neurotransmitters or other neuroregulatory agents. These data further suggest that at least one mode of action of d-LSD may be the displacement of DMT from its binding site on the neuron.



I presume that article was written before the serotonin receptor subtypes were identified - that hypothesis for the mechanism of DMT & LSD is very different to what we know now! :laugh:

Anyway, I think we've established that DMT is endogenous and can move on...




thanks for your updates, these do seem to describe valid tests for presence of DMT in serum, the first relates to endogenous human DMT,
but is out of context, so the meaning of endogenous is obscured as relates to naturally ocurring or administered but within the body at the time of testing.
(the distinction of which is what this thread is about)...

the other tests relate to mouse plasma tests apparently established to be used in experiments that clarify theretical comparison of lsd and dmt binding sites.
maybe if i had the whole documents I could see a realtionship to endogenous DMT, which is not apparent from the references as listed.


you are doing some good research, so far
I am impressed.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9098079 - 10/18/08 10:14 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I'm glad my research impresses you, since, you know, I do this for a living.


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                                                part of the world belongs to me
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: zouden]
    #9098084 - 10/18/08 10:18 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

You research DMT for a living?

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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: deCypher]
    #9098088 - 10/18/08 10:20 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
I just did a Pubmed search on endogenous DMT... There were quite a few studies, as well as the ones that Zouden posted.  :shrug:




what are done in the studies is important
what is measured, how it is measured
what was the experiment set up to investigate etc.

I can see tremendous desire to have this mean something that it may not mean at all.

i.e. that we are making DMT and storing it in our pineal glands.
or are we making it in our kidneys and intestines, and it only gets into blood when we ae schizophrenic.

this type of experiment would deserve many corroborating studies in which hundreds of controls and schizophrenics' intestines and kidneys would be bioassayed for DMT.


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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: zouden]
    #9098095 - 10/18/08 10:23 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
I'm glad my research impresses you, since, you know, I do this for a living.



what do you do for a living?
chromatography?
bioassays of DMT?


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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: DieCommie]
    #9098100 - 10/18/08 10:26 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
You research DMT for a living?




I wish! I meant general literature-searching. At the moment I'm looking at antidepressants but if my supervisors decide they want to investigate DMT I'll be the first to put my hand up!

Anyway, I doubt DMT is made in the pineal gland. The trace amine receptors that DMT binds to are mostly in the amygdala, which is quite a ways from the pineal gland. I haven't come across any research pinpointing the location of DMT synthesis.

Edit: some of my colleagues have developed a method for tracking the release of neurotransmitters in a fully-conscious adult rat. They dialyse the cerebrospinal fluid with a probe inserted through a hole in the skull and collect it in tubes and run it through an HPLC. I'll ask them if they're capable of detecting DMT with their HPLC setup. They mostly look for dopamine and glutamate.

Edit2:
J Neurochem. 1976 Jan;26(1):187-90.
Biogenesis of 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine in human pineal gland.

I can't even see the abstract, let alone the full text, but it looks like was wrong re: pineal gland.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Edited by zouden (10/18/08 10:31 PM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: zouden]
    #9098123 - 10/18/08 10:37 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
You research DMT for a living?




I wish! I meant general literature-searching. At the moment I'm looking at antidepressants but if my supervisors decide they want to investigate DMT I'll be the first to put my hand up!

Anyway, I doubt DMT is made in the pineal gland. The trace amine receptors that DMT binds to are mostly in the amygdala, which is quite a ways from the pineal gland. I haven't come across any research pinpointing the location of DMT synthesis.




careful on extrapolating about binding sites with specificity for molecular confomers
they just as likely are not specific only for those confomers,
i.e. shapes analogous but different are frequently discovered, and non-endogenously occurring molecules may actually bind more vigorously to those sites without it meaning anything conclusive about DMT being found naturally in the brain unless ingested.

so if you are just scanning literature, you will certainly pick up a lot of lint, vs actual information about DMT being naturally occuring in the brain even though the terms endogenous, DMT and Human brain are strung together in the text.


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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: zouden]
    #9098146 - 10/18/08 10:43 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zouden said:
....
Edit2:
J Neurochem. 1976 Jan;26(1):187-90.
Biogenesis of 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine in human pineal gland.

I can't even see the abstract, let alone the full text, but it looks like was wrong re: pineal gland.




I hope you can get that one and let us read it.
I hope it is not just another justification for grant money in which nothing was actually done but a paper was writen and published.
it does happen.
high faluting titles to papers that don't actually describe experiments that touch on the matter significantly.


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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9098202 - 10/18/08 11:01 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)
Log in to view attachment

Unfortunately that journal only has online access from 1982 onwards. But I found this, a fairly recent review.

The mysterious trace amines: Protean neuromodulators of synaptic transmission in mammalian brain
Progress in Neurobiology
Volume 79, Issues 5-6, August 2006, Pages 223-246
Quote:

The trace amines are a structurally related group of amines and their isomers synthesized in mammalian brain and peripheral nervous tissues. They are closely associated metabolically with the dopamine, noradrenaline and serotonin neurotransmitter systems in mammalian brain. Like dopamine, noradrenaline and serotonin the trace amines have been implicated in a vast array of human disorders of affect and cognition. The trace amines are unique as they are present in trace concentrations, exhibit high rates of metabolism and are distributed heterogeneously in mammalian brain. While some are synthesized in their parent amine neurotransmitter systems, there is also evidence to suggest other trace amines may comprise their own independent neurotransmitter systems. A substantial body of evidence suggests that the trace amines may play very significant roles in the coordination of biogenic amine-based synaptic physiology. At high concentrations, they have well-characterized presynaptic “amphetamine-like” effects on catecholamine and indolamine release, reuptake and biosynthesis; at lower concentrations, they possess postsynaptic modulatory effects that potentiate the activity of other neurotransmitters, particularly dopamine and serotonin. The trace amines also possess electrophysiological effects that are in opposition to these neurotransmitters, indicating to some researchers the existence of receptors specific for the trace amines. While binding sites or receptors for a few of the trace amines have been advanced, the absence of cloned receptor protein has impeded significant development of their detailed mechanistic roles in the coordination of catecholamine and indolamine synaptic physiology. The recent discovery and characterization of a family of mammalian G protein-coupled receptors responsive to trace amines such as β-phenylethylamine, tyramine, and octopamine, including socially ingested psychotropic drugs such as amphetamine, 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine, N,N-dimethyltryptamine, and lysergic acid diethylamide, have revitalized the field of scientific studies investigating trace amine synaptic physiology, and its association with major human disorders of affect and cognition.



The PDF is attached.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: zouden]
    #9098341 - 10/18/08 11:35 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

thanks for that one
it is a review article
please read the quote carefully about DMT
Quote:

3. Synthesis and metabolism of the trace amines
Forever and ever, persistent matter must change its form.
Grasping the clue of causality, mechanical, physical,
chemical and organic phenomenon greedily push to the
fore, snatching matter from one another, for each would
reveal its own inherent idea (Schopenhauer, 1966).
The trace amines, b-PEA, p-TYR, OA and TRP, are all
synthesized directly by the enzymatic decarboxylation by LAADC
of the respective precursor amino acids, or as in the case
of OA by additional conversion from TYR by dopamine-bhydroxylase
(Boulton and Wu, 1973; Boulton, 1976a; Durden
and Phillips, 1980; Bowsher and Henry, 1983; for review, see
Lindemann and Hoener, 2005). DMT is synthesized by two
successive methylation reactions. The first forms N-methyltryptamine
from tryptamine while the second produces N,Ndimethyltryptamine
(DMT) from the methylation of Nmethyltryptamine
(Mandell and Morgan, 1971; for discussion,

see Jacob and Presti, 2005).




the natural synthesis of the trace amines not including DMT are listed with enzymatic pathways
the speculated DMT synthesis is then appended
- I bolded it, the methylation reactions are not proposed enzymatiic, and are not localized

this review article is not clarifying whether DMT is natural or not in the brain, but it is including it in case it is later determined to be natural.
and the inclusion of DMT in the article seems sensationalistical (footnoted on the first page and only mentioned this way as a potential minor player among trace amines)

again you found some stuff but the stuff is too soft scientifically,
it is situated next to harder science, yet carefully couched in speculation.

can you see that or do you think this type of article proves something?

by the way thanks for the read.


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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9098351 - 10/18/08 11:40 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

A review article like this is supposed to help point you in the direction of further research. Did those cited articles have any good details?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9098356 - 10/18/08 11:41 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
thanks for that one
it is a review article
please read the quote carefully about DMT
Quote:

3. Synthesis and metabolism of the trace amines
Forever and ever, persistent matter must change its form.
Grasping the clue of causality, mechanical, physical,
chemical and organic phenomenon greedily push to the
fore, snatching matter from one another, for each would
reveal its own inherent idea (Schopenhauer, 1966).
The trace amines, b-PEA, p-TYR, OA and TRP, are all
synthesized directly by the enzymatic decarboxylation by LAADC
of the respective precursor amino acids, or as in the case
of OA by additional conversion from TYR by dopamine-bhydroxylase
(Boulton and Wu, 1973; Boulton, 1976a; Durden
and Phillips, 1980; Bowsher and Henry, 1983; for review, see
Lindemann and Hoener, 2005). DMT is synthesized by two
successive methylation reactions. The first forms N-methyltryptamine
from tryptamine while the second produces N,Ndimethyltryptamine
(DMT) from the methylation of Nmethyltryptamine
(Mandell and Morgan, 1971; for discussion,

see Jacob and Presti, 2005).




the natural synthesis of the trace amines not including DMT are listed with enzymatic pathways
the speculated DMT synthesis is then appended
- I bolded it, the methylation reactions are not proposed enzymatiic, and are not localized

this review article is not clarifying whether DMT is natural or not in the brain, but it is including it in case it is later determined to be natural.
and the inclusion of DMT in the article seems sensationalistical (footnoted on the first page and only mentioned this way as a potential minor player among trace amines)

again you found some stuff but the stuff is too soft scientifically,
it is situated next to harder science, yet carefully couched in speculation.

can you see that or do you think this type of article proves something?

by the way thanks for the read.





personally, it doesn't matter to me whether dmt is produced or has any effect on the brain (outside of clear, external introduction).  the fact that it is produced in the body of us, and so many other species of animals, plants, etc... is enough for me to understand the importance of this chemical


granted, some people have incredible experiences from using an oxygen inhaler, there is really no comparing the effects of additional chemicals flowing through the body (apologize for the incoherence)


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: zouden]
    #9098396 - 10/18/08 11:56 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I am not claiming to find the articles,
I don't have access to them
I only know how to read them critically,
and I remain extremely skeptical about endogenous DMT in the face of what has surfaced so far.
in stead I see cagey speculation honoring the speculation of others but not confirming it and then some other unrelated science is thrown in.


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Offlinezouden
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9098429 - 10/19/08 12:09 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

We found multiple articles discussing the existence of endogenous DMT, and several articles detailing the method used to detect and quantify the DMT in blood and urine. We've seen that there are other, related compounds that are also found endogenously in the mammalian body so it wouldn't even be that unusual for DMT to be naturally-occurring. A putative role as a modulator of anxiety has been proposed, based on characterisation of the trace amine receptor in the amygdala.

I don't know what else you need.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: zouden]
    #9098961 - 10/19/08 06:15 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

The articles have DMT or ENDOGENOUS DMT in the title,
They do not however illustrate scientifically that DMT is endogenous in the brain, nor that the molecule is created and stored in any brain location.

It is very normal to have a non-proven scientific phrase in a scientific publication's title to gain attention from the world.

This is what is affecting your non-critical reading of the text.
you have to read the text.
the articles do not prove the existence of what is supposed, they do discuss various peripheral contingencies and experiments that question the hypothesis, but also do not prove it.

ergo, this is still just HYPOTHETICAL.
you have to do more than just locate a search string.
the text has to be read critically.

since the 1700's, men have been getting "scientific" attention by making claims and promoting theories, and riding fame and popularity until the theories are quashed.

the number of articles unearthed (investigating but not proving endogenous DMT) and their lack of substance is consistent with that kind of effort.

when I was active in this field, respected scientists were publishing papers that researched the storage of information in RNA;
there were hundreds of articles, which had RNA and learning or memory formation, or biologic information storage, right in the title.
RNA Memory Model.

Millions of dollars were being spent on this highly controvertial area, and the number of lab rats whose brains were turned to chemical mash after learning mazes was astronomical.

I do not need to tell you that this research went nowhere, that fame was brief and quickly reversed, and that these scientists changed focust to other areas.

The memory model for the human brain is still an unsolved mystery and none of the researchers are pusuing the storage of memory in chains of RNA any more.

I find the kind of research related to DMT and Human consciousness less solid than the RNA Memory Model work, and I repeat that the articles do not mean what is in the title, and do not prove the veracity of a string of words which can be used as a search string.

the presence of a search string in some text should be the beginning of due dilligence, not the end of it.


--------------------
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Offlinezouden
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9098997 - 10/19/08 07:01 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)
Log in to view attachment

Sure. That's good advice. But the fact still remains that endogenous DMT has been detected and quantified in the human body.

Edit: I'm attaching the 2004 Jacob & Presti paper. I believe it is the finest review of DMT ever published.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Edited by zouden (10/19/08 07:19 AM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual - extremely thin veils of science cloud lack of evidence [Re: zouden]
    #9099081 - 10/19/08 08:26 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

if you read that paper you find absolutely zero proof of endogenous DMT production.
you find echoes of previous conjecture by others, you find all hypotheses carefully framed with "may" "might" and "perhaps".

personally, a scientific paper with 3 of those is enough to put it in the flimsy category. this paper is all about possiblitity and not about any proof except for reviewing several experiments by others (strassman shows up here) that prove you do get stoned when you take enough DMT, and others that indicate that you may get calm if you don't take that much, so possibly trace amines regulate your state of calm. ergo, claims about increased urine and stool presence of DMT in schizophrenics (what does that data actually look like???) puts all the poop on the table in a bowl of maybe and perhaps.

that is very poor science, but it is a typical review article, substantial to keep a professor teaching in a modern university - they have to publish something!

this paper however does not quantify DMT as endogenous.
it does echo huge interest in the drug, and as we all know it is active, binding sites exist.

I am interested in all the poop that you have on schizophrenics, but not as proof of this concept (which it hardly is at all) just because I am interested.

Now the issue of binding sites is really a lot like the issue of streetside parking.
you will probably admit that a motorcycle is unlike a car, though both drive on the road and need to be parked.
both vehicles can park at streetside parking meters.

the motor cycle could be left elsewhere, and the parking slip is actually designed (imagine evolved) for the car, but if a motor cycle is in the paid space, a car will not be able to park there.

having an amine binding site which DMT fits into does not mean DMT is endogenous nor does it mean that the binding site was evolved to accommodate DMT.

please read more critically, but do continue to read with enthusiasm


--------------------
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual - extremely thin veils of science cloud lack of evidence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9099151 - 10/19/08 09:10 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

crystallized human INMT from peripheral cells has been isolated, and expressed in e.coli

it's the suspect enzyme involved in methylating decarboxylated tryptophan in vivo, the latter process occurring in the gut epithelial cells. there is not sufficient evidence to support the hypothesis that dmt is produced in any significant amount in the brain


--------------------
"Experiments are the only means of attaining knowledge at our disposal. The rest is just poetry, imagination." ~Max Planck

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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual - extremely thin veils of science cloud lack of evidence [Re: piracetam]
    #9100381 - 10/19/08 03:08 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Have you ever read a paper that didn't use words like 'might'? I'll give you a hint: they all do.



How do you explain the levels of DMT found in people? That every one of them had been smoking up right before the test?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual - extremely thin veils of science cloud lack of evidence [Re: zouden]
    #9100671 - 10/19/08 04:21 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I guess this graph "might" correspond somewhat with the gut epithelial cell INMT activity as mentioned by piracetam.

the quantification reported seems to be in the low microgram per day range.

slightly more range in the mentally ill groups, (were the groups large enough to be statistically significant?, or does each dot a human being, suggestive of a small sample of people).

it would be good to have more data on the stool samples, and on the collection periods and other factors related to the biological material collected and tested.

do you think there could be a more direct relationship between epithelial cell INMT activity and a variation in frequency and size of bowel movements, between the "diagnosed" mentally ill groups, than on a neurological mood altering feedback system that uses gut epithelia?

in any case, the endogeny is very clearly presented and it's exogenous assay (which is  poop with very low concentration of amines in the extreme) seems very close on it's heels;
this seems disconnected from the CNS and brain functions, except in the likely relation to complexes related to fecal retention - or variance in fecal retentiveness accross a sampling of mentally il patients.


As for the projected efficacy of gut epithelial endogenous DMT as a possible amine regulator for a "state of mind" feedback adjustment, I would have to agree with piracetam that the concentrations are way below even the lowest concentration of an even mildly or moderately active dose for the most subtle of relaxing feedback effects.

however
you have proved your point
there really is a likelihood of an extremely small amount of human endogenous DMT that is produced in the GUT under a variety of circumstances.
(which may be related to bowel irritation or other issues)
((note we also produce a fair bit of acetone during the normal cycle of the day.))

Do you think it would be fair to admit that this particular DMT is far less likely to be active in the CNS (by virtue of concentration at less than 1/10000th) of a plugged dose,
or do you think that these scientific BIOASSAYS suggest that DMT must also be occuring elsewhere in the body at psychoactive concentrations such as is speculated by the hordes of scientific writers going on about endogenous DMT (at psychoactive levels) in human brains (not extremely trace levels in poop) without any sensible proof.


--------------------
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual - extremely thin veils of science cloud lack of evidence [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9100704 - 10/19/08 04:28 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

That's what I've been saying from the start, the endogenous levels of DMT is far below that of a psychoactive dose. Binding assays have found that at psychoactive concentrations DMT binds to a serotonin receptor and causes the effect we commonly associate with the drug, but at physiological concentrations it binds to a poorly-understood receptor called the TA (trace amine) receptor. One hypothesis is that it's involved in the stress-anxiety response.
Also, because DMT is able to cross the blood-brain barrier it's entirely possible that it's produced in some other part of the body, such as the gut, and be transported up into the CNS. I wonder why? I'm certainly curious to see how this story ends!

edit: re: that chart, each point is one subject. I believe they had 60-something patients from a mental hospital and 19 others. It's a fair sample size, enough to show that there is DMT naturally occurring in humans and that this level may be affected by mental illness.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Edited by zouden (10/19/08 04:35 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: DMT linked to the spiritual - extremely thin veils of science cloud lack of evidence [Re: zouden]
    #9103418 - 10/20/08 09:55 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I like to smoke it as it raises the level in my system for a few minutes. That is very good for my health.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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