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InvisibleLurksponge
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Advice on Substrate Choices and other questions
    #9080593 - 10/15/08 10:22 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

First of all hey everyone, long time viewer first time poster on the boards here. Ive read nearly all the teks and hundreds of posts but I thought Id finally post a few questions I had regarding substrates and other growth questions.

My current setup is BRF cakes that Im going to dunk, crumble, and case with sterilized vermiculite(first time grow, its what I could find before I read up on other substrates). Ive already cased 2 jars using the above method and Im waiting for them to be ready to initiate pinning. After doing BRF jars Ive realized that they suck for water retention and take entirely too long to colonize (going on 45 days now with temp varying from 70-89F).

Substrates:

Corn/Cracked Corn/Popcorn - From what Ive read people often do well with it but since its a large grain you get less mycellium per jar. Id be interested to see what sort of nutrients corn/cracked corn/popcorn gives vs. WBS.

Rye Berries - The holy grail of grains. Unfortunately its impossible to find in any of the healthfood stores and I dont have any grain/feed stores near me. The shops online charge something around 5$ per 5lb but the shipping is double the cost of the grain so I think Ill pass.

BRF - Takes too long to colonize, Im guessing because you cant shake it.

WBS - From what Ive read theres mixed opinions on WBS as a substrate. Many people say that its great for spawning to bulk but as Im just getting into this Id like to at first just case it. What is your opinion on casing straight WBS?

As far as the choices above, based on availability and quality of the product achieved which would you advise me to use? Also, what sort of casing should I use with your suggested substrate?

As for the fruiting chamber Im kinda low on cash and already have 2 boxes that I was going to use the perlite method with. If youre using the perlite method, should you drill holes near the bottom of the chamber for CO2 elimination?

Also, since it seems that my colonization is halted by the temperature not being a constant 86F are there other options for an incubator setup other than the TiT? When setting up a TiT do most of the aquarium heaters you can get have an external temperature probe?

When you have a fully colonized jar (BRF in my case) will it work to do a grain/grain transfer from one grain to another? E.g. BRF crumbled cake to sterilized WBS?

For liquid culture, can you use a small bit of crumbled colonized grain to knock it up rather than spores from a syringe?

Sorry for the barrage of questions and the disordered post, just had a lot of questions on my mind that I didnt find definite answers to when searching. When I get the time to take pictures of the jars I'm waiting on colonizing I'll make sure to post them. Any help on the above questions is greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

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Offlinedothedew69
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Re: Advice on Substrate Choices and other questions [Re: Lurksponge]
    #9080687 - 10/15/08 10:41 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Hey there I skipped cakes and went straight into WBS. I read all the teks and tons of posts that were available in the links and just found WBS to be simple, available everywhere, and cheap. So far success, I am just giving you my experience. You do need a PC which I am sure you know and make sure the WBS is not too wet. I have the same problem with Rye berries, my grain store charges a lot for organic Rye Berries so I am sticking with my 50lb of Pennington for $14 or find a ripped bag at Wal-Mart and demand a discount (works great!). As for the popcorn I don't think it is recommended especially when WBS from my research in my area is cheaper and will colonize better (anyone to confirm that?).

If you are considering doing bulk substrate and want to use perlite get a big fruiting tub and then like 12qt containers unless you make cakes from WBS and put on lids on the perlite. But it is suggested to do a monotub but what I was afraid of is the amount of jars used and if it's contaminated you lose all of them. I suggest getting a larger tub and then use the 12qt containers on top of the perlite. So you will have multiple trays and if one contams you might be ok with the other trays. After that look into an automated greenhouse. There is a tek on it in the fruiting chamber section of growing mushrooms.

As for the TiT I was advised not to use one. It made sense to me, the side and bottom of the TiT will be much warmer because it has direct contact to the warm water. Also the rH levels will be higher inside and will create condensation on the outside of the jar which contams love! We also know hot air rises so the temp will vary in the TiT. It does seem to help progress with myc growth but it gave me my first contam (I had two jars in a drawer and 2 in the TiT, TiT 1 jar contaminated). As for the constant 86 degrees it depends on how you grow. If you are using Rye or WBS you will want to use like a quart jar and it is advised that you should be 80 or lower really because mycelium growth creates heat. You can colonize at 72 as my drawer is doing right now. Also if you want to incubate get a small room heater and sit it right in front of a tub, that should work. I also have seen a water heater that has a digital external temp control, but it was very expensive. If you do a TiT get a 100w or higher heater.

As for the last two questions I am not sure. You could grow the mushrooms then get a print and make a LC from that. I do know that :smile:. Anyways I am telling you from my understandings. I could be wrong I am still learning but hoping to shed some light.

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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: Advice on Substrate Choices and other questions [Re: Lurksponge]
    #9080741 - 10/15/08 10:52 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Lurksponge said:

As far as the choices above, based on availability and quality of the product achieved which would you advise me to use? Also, what sort of casing should I use with your suggested substrate?




It really doesn't matter. BRF is very nutritious. It just isn't practical to use as a bulk substrate. If you have access to WBS, use it. Many people used a peat based casing mixed with either vermiculite or coir. The most common is 50/50 peat/verm with a pH buffer like lime or calcium carbonate added.

Quote:


As for the fruiting chamber Im kinda low on cash and already have 2 boxes that I was going to use the perlite method with. If youre using the perlite method, should you drill holes near the bottom of the chamber for CO2 elimination?




You don't need any holes unless you're unable to fan the chamber out manually a few times a day.

Quote:

Also, since it seems that my colonization is halted by the temperature not being a constant 86F are there other options for an incubator setup other than the TiT? When setting up a TiT do most of the aquarium heaters you can get have an external temperature probe?




Don't use a TiT. Someone posted it recently, but you don't want your temps any higher than 81F. Higher than that can slow growth. Room temperatures are fine assuming you aren't in an igloo or a tent in the desert.

Quote:

When you have a fully colonized jar (BRF in my case) will it work to do a grain/grain transfer from one grain to another? E.g. BRF crumbled cake to sterilized WBS?




Yes. Crumbled BRF cakes actually work REALLY well for G2G transfers because of all of the inoculation points. Obviously, you will need to practice sterile procedures when doing this. A glove box/still air box or HEPA filtered flow hood would be recommended, but people have gotten by by being VERY clean in open air.

Quote:

For liquid culture, can you use a small bit of crumbled colonized grain to knock it up rather than spores from a syringe?




Yes. Again, sterile procedure is a must. LC's are very prone to contamination.


--------------------

Quick WBS Prep

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InvisibleLurksponge
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Re: Advice on Substrate Choices and other questions [Re: FooMan]
    #9081174 - 10/15/08 12:17 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for the quick and informed responses fooman and dothdew69!

For the fruiting chamber I'm predicting I'll be able to fan it 3 times daily. Morning, 5-6pm, and at night. Is that often enough for FAE during fruiting?

When you've got a colonized LC, how long does it last? Can you just inoculate another LC from a colonized LC in an endless loop when needed or do you need to eventually knock it up with spores/grain?

When casing WBS, how does coir/verm 50/50 fare in terms of nutrients and what not?

I'm glad to hear that 70-89F temp range is decent for growth but I'm wondering why it's taking so long for a full colonization. I'm using pint jars right now that were inoculated from a multispore syringe. As for the tops I simply have the two holes punched into the canning lids with foil covering them.

I had a fear at the beginning that they might be getting dry (hard to tell with BRF/verm cakes) so I placed a layer of moist perlite in a plastic container and set the box with my jars on top of it to up the humidity, thinking it'd help the situation. After reading more posts I realized that this was pointless and the jars should have enough moisture already. I've noticed that most of my jars have quite a bit of condensation on the inside of them. One of the jars I can tell was much too wet when I inoculated it as the grain is a dark dark brown, weighs much more than the other jars, and has wierd looking sparse growth.

Do you think that it might be the condensation inside the jars (or that the substrate was just too wet when inoculating) and lack of FAE that's slowing my colonization down?

If so, would using tyvek like this eliminate those issues?

-Place tyvek on top of can lid with holes punched and cover with foil to PC
-Remove foil after PC and inoculate jars, placing a bandaid over the hole in tyvek from inoculation
-Leave like that in the dark


--------------------
I need rising sound … And when it comes to that fantastic note where the rabbit bites its own head off, I want you to throw that fuckin' radio into the tub with me!

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Offlinedothedew69
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Re: Advice on Substrate Choices and other questions [Re: Lurksponge]
    #9081210 - 10/15/08 12:28 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

When you prepare a casing layer, you do not want to use a nutrient rich substrate ie coir. Use the 50/50+ as a casing layer. Plus it is cheaper to make as well. Coir is suited as a substrate only. Contams like more nutrients.

Clips from RR's video gives you exact ratios to use.

Edited by dothedew69 (10/15/08 12:28 PM)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Advice on Substrate Choices and other questions [Re: dothedew69]
    #9081299 - 10/15/08 12:51 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Dothedew69, your link doesn't work.  If you were pointing to the casing layer prep page, that link should work.
RR


--------------------
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OfflineT2K_Rusty
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Re: Advice on Substrate Choices and other questions [Re: Lurksponge]
    #9081616 - 10/15/08 01:48 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Lurksponge said:
First of all hey everyone, long time viewer first time poster on the boards here. Ive read nearly all the teks and hundreds of posts but I thought Id finally post a few questions I had regarding substrates and other growth questions.

My current setup is BRF cakes that Im going to dunk, crumble, and case with sterilized vermiculite(first time grow, its what I could find before I read up on other substrates). Ive already cased 2 jars using the above method and Im waiting for them to be ready to initiate pinning. After doing BRF jars Ive realized that they suck for water retention and take entirely too long to colonize (going on 45 days now with temp varying from 70-89F).

Substrates:

Corn/Cracked Corn/Popcorn - From what Ive read people often do well with it but since its a large grain you get less mycellium per jar. Id be interested to see what sort of nutrients corn/cracked corn/popcorn gives vs. WBS.



  I like popcorn a little better than wbs. I get less contamination.

Quote:

Rye Berries - The holy grail of grains. Unfortunately its impossible to find in any of the healthfood stores and I dont have any grain/feed stores near me. The shops online charge something around 5$ per 5lb but the shipping is double the cost of the grain so I think Ill pass.



You can trade something for rye here in the shroomery. A lot of sponsors sell it for cheap too.

Quote:

BRF - Takes too long to colonize, Im guessing because you cant shake it.


  I use small cakes, 1/4 pint, to inoculate bigger grain jars with. They do come in handy for using new spores on, or testing LC out in a shotglass of brf. BR is actually one of the most nutritious substrates, if not the most.

Quote:

WBS - From what Ive read theres mixed opinions on WBS as a substrate. Many people say that its great for spawning to bulk but as Im just getting into this Id like to at first just case it. What is your opinion on casing straight WBS?


  Works okay cased straight. The texture of wbs makes it an awesome spawn material though, especially for those who have no rye. Cheap and available anywhere, though has given me more contamination than anything else. Every brand is a little different mix.

Quote:

As far as the choices above, based on availability and quality of the product achieved which would you advise me to use? Also, what sort of casing should I use with your suggested substrate?



Rye if you can get it. If not, popcorn and wbs for casing grains, wbs for spawn, brf for w/e you want.

Quote:

As for the fruiting chamber Im kinda low on cash and already have 2 boxes that I was going to use the perlite method with. If youre using the perlite method, should you drill holes near the bottom of the chamber for CO2 elimination?


Yes drill the holes. You'll still want to fan and mist for optimum performance.  If you don't like messing with messy perlite, just case your grains in a container that is sized right, to act like a miniature monotub. Drill some holes in it like a fruiting chamber, or mono.

Quote:

Also, since it seems that my colonization is halted by the temperature not being a constant 86F are there other options for an incubator setup other than the TiT? When setting up a TiT do most of the aquarium heaters you can get have an external temperature probe?


  Honestly I don't see the point in incubating cubensis mycellium unless it's a very large scale ordeal.  Optimum temperature is between 70-80 degrees, 80 being prime. However anything over 80 will quickly start to diminish colonization quality and speed, potentially stalling, quitting, or contaming the spawn. If you can wear a t-shirt in the house, you don't need incubation, and you won't need darkness.

Quote:

When you have a fully colonized jar (BRF in my case) will it work to do a grain/grain transfer from one grain to another? E.g. BRF crumbled cake to sterilized WBS?


Oh God yes. That's how i start up batches of wbs all the time. I never MS inoc it. For speed, to get lots of spawn ready use the 1/4 pint brf cakes instead of half pint. They take a week to colonize.  Crumble them in a clean baggie, dip a spoon in some alcohal, let it dry, use the spoon to inoculate. Use a glovebox or just be extra clean with a facemask etc... recomended.

Quote:

For liquid culture, can you use a small bit of crumbled colonized grain to knock it up rather than spores from a syringe?



Skip the liquid culture unless you want to clone a shroom, and don't have any agar or petris. Just noc the grain up with grain or brf. You can inoculate 1/4 pint brf jars, and they will be ready to use in 10 days max. for a grain to grain transfer. You can also extract mycellium water (same concept as a liquid culture) straight from a cake using a syringe and sterile water. Get all the myc water you want to use before crumbling it.


--------------------
Sh sh shaw!


Edited by T2K_Rusty (10/15/08 01:48 PM)

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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: Advice on Substrate Choices and other questions [Re: dothedew69]
    #9082031 - 10/15/08 03:20 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

dothedew69 said:
Coir is suited as a substrate only. Contams like more nutrients.





I hate to sound like a broken record, but that simply isn't true. Yes, coir has nutes and colonizes like a mofo, but it does do the job of creating a proper microclimate for pin formation and the subsequent fruits. If in doubt, check out Doc34's grows using only coir as a casing. They're amazing. 

It kills me to keep hearing people say it simply "won't" work as a casing just because it can also double as a substrate due to the nutes. Vermiculite should also not be used as a casing by the "non-nutritous" definition since mycelium will colonize it completely too. (brf/verm cake, anyone?)


--------------------

Quick WBS Prep

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OfflineT2K_Rusty
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Re: Advice on Substrate Choices and other questions [Re: FooMan]
    #9082632 - 10/15/08 05:36 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

My last grow was colonized coir cased in coir/verm.  It definitely serves the purpose of a casing layer, and the mycs energy isn't really wasted if it gets too colonized, because it's full of nutrients, and they get used in the network.


--------------------
Sh sh shaw!


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Offlinedothedew69
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Re: Advice on Substrate Choices and other questions [Re: T2K_Rusty]
    #9082727 - 10/15/08 05:55 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Sorry about that Foo, sorry for the bad link as well, not doing so well oops.

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Re: Advice on Substrate Choices and other questions [Re: dothedew69]
    #9082839 - 10/15/08 06:16 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Your jars are taking so long for a few reasons.

There pint jars, use what is recomended in the tek which is 1/2 pint jars. Pf tek substrate in a pint jar take ages to colinise and are prone to stalling.

Also you should have your inoculation holes uncovered. You need gas exchange which the holes provide. Cover them and c02 will build up to toxic levels stalling growth.

Also colinisation temps should not exceed 81F. If its hitting 89F your jars could well be as hot as 95F inside. As colinising mycelium will produce some heat while it eats food.


--------------------

PF TEK - writeup by EvilMushroom666
Lets Grow Mushrooms - RogerRabbit & RoadKills website with sample videos plus the full PF TEK video series. Alot of great information - BUY THE DVD
Cakes can and will pin! - So you think cakes suck for pins. Your wrong
Franks Simple Coir/Verm Tek
Franks Proper Pasturisation Tek
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Foo Mans No Soak WBS Prep Tek

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InvisibleFooMan
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Re: Advice on Substrate Choices and other questions [Re: dothedew69]
    #9083177 - 10/15/08 07:25 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

dothedew69 said:
Sorry about that Foo, sorry for the bad link as well, not doing so well oops.




LOL, I'm not attacking you bro. You're not the first (or last) person saying not to use coir as a casing. I've even seen other trusted cultivators saying the same thing. Yes, by definition coir wouldn't fit the bill as a casing layer because of the nutes, but it'll work. The thing that gave coir a bad rap as a casing was people saying it caused overlay, even if it wasn't overlay.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not recommending coir as a great casing. I just don't think anyone should rule it out.


--------------------

Quick WBS Prep

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