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 Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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 Joie de Vivre! 
#9077070 - 10/14/08 05:05 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Joy in living. It seems that we are born knowing how to enjoy living, and then we forget or are taught to do something else.
We place our joy in the future or the past, imagining that it will come someday or that we had it once & don't have it now. We look for joy in other people, in a career, in material success, and sometimes mistakenly believe that we have "found" it there.
It seems to me that joy is an approach to life, and not something produced by events or things. When we meet life with an orientation towards wonder, pleasure, excitement, passion & fun, we experience joie de vivre.
What have you noticed about enjoyment?
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 Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
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 Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: Veritas]
#9077188 - 10/14/08 05:29 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I like the Buddhist approach to enjoyment of life: Our minds are naturally luminous and joyful, but are made otherwise by self-clinging. When we are clinging to concepts of who we are and how we are being perceived, we are alienated from our experience. The key to joy is in letting go of confining self-images and allowing ourselves a little space to step back and just be.
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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: Veritas]
#9077232 - 10/14/08 05:37 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Joy in living. It seems that we are born knowing how to enjoy living, and then we forget or are taught to do something else.
We place our joy in the future or the past, imagining that it will come someday or that we had it once & don't have it now. We look for joy in other people, in a career, in material success, and sometimes mistakenly believe that we have "found" it there.
It seems to me that joy is an approach to life, and not something produced by events or things. When we meet life with an orientation towards wonder, pleasure, excitement, passion & fun, we experience joie de vivre.
What have you noticed about enjoyment?
Intellectually I agree. However my childhood held almost no examples of joy and I did not learn how to experience it. Ecstasy has been very helpful but I still sometime despair of ever living a truly joyful life. However its not too bad at the moment. I've really worked at it but often in unskillful ways.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 8,775
Last seen: 1 month, 3 days
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: Icelander]
#9077245 - 10/14/08 05:38 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ecstasy has been very helpful but I still sometime despair of ever living a truly joyful life. However its not too bad at the moment.
It's definitely moment to moment for me.
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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: Veritas]
#9077335 - 10/14/08 05:48 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
What have you noticed about enjoyment?
it's attractive
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: Veritas]
#9077523 - 10/14/08 06:20 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
What have you noticed about enjoyment?
That it is present whenever I am aware that every experience has it's own charm.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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zannennagara
Found in Space
Registered: 09/25/08
Posts: 433
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: Veritas]
#9078882 - 10/14/08 10:13 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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My joy tends to diminish the more I stay in the same place - home, routine, etc. I feel happier when I know I'm headed somewhere new, otherwise I appease myself with dependable music and meals. I imagine that I will be happier once I find a purposeful routine that enables regular travel, but I read your second paragraph and fear it to be true.
I tend to think that children are happier because they're allowed it - no one is demanding much of them, just enabling a good time. The change to "pragmatic concerns" and imposition of more work can be when that joy starts to fade, particularly for the asocially inclined.
When we allow ourselves the same happiness we allow children, our attitude changes. The great thing about a drug trip is the complete allotment of self to the experience of seeing/feeling the unusual and doing what you like, whereas most other adult activities seem to involve trudging through an expected routine to get to the end of the day (or the routine for good).
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No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Quote:
zannennagara said:
I tend to think that children are happier because they're allowed it
Then the crushing reality of human suffering and death starts to hit them in their teenage years, and it's never the same afterward.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: deCypher]
#9079088 - 10/14/08 10:54 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Adult life is what you make of it. I've become more joyful in my 30's than I was in my teens and 20's, and I see no reason why I cannot experience the same joie de vivre throughout my adulthood.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: Veritas]
#9079095 - 10/14/08 10:55 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Sure, this may be true, but I'm just saying there's a difference between the idyllic innocence of childhood, where death and old age seem as legendary as the tales of King Arthur, and the later years of being an adolescent or early twenties: the completion of frontal lobe development puts an end to feeling invincible and committing risky decisions, and gives far more believable weight to the idea that you will die one day.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: deCypher]
#9079123 - 10/14/08 11:02 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Recognition of one's mortality can be seen as a tragedy or as motivation to seize the day. Western culture tends to demonize death, which contributes to our tendency to become depressed/anxious/apathetic about our mortality.
Children may think that they have eternity to live, and thus skim over the surface of their experiences. As adults cognizant of mortality, we have the opportunity to "use death as an advisor," and delve deeply into our lives. After all, what else is truly worth living for?
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: deCypher]
#9079126 - 10/14/08 11:03 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
Quote:
zannennagara said:
I tend to think that children are happier because they're allowed it
Then the crushing reality of human suffering and death starts to hit them in their teenage years, and it's never the same afterward.
with the pressures of education and growing into a world of slavery, i would have to agree. for many suffering is inevitable.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: Veritas]
#9079129 - 10/14/08 11:04 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:As adults cognizant of mortality, we have the opportunity to "use death as an advisor," and delve deeply into our lives. After all, what else is truly worth living for?
I tend to disagree with Socrates here. The examined life in the end is the life not worth living. I would find myself far more compelled to carpe diem if I knew that I could live forever (as then my death would have meaning.) As is, I know I'm going to die some day--anything I can do will only extend or shorten this duration.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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demiu5
humans, lol
Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium 
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: Veritas]
#9079134 - 10/14/08 11:04 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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*joy of life
there have been rare moments where i have had/shared joy in the present, fleeting moment. however, they have all been chemically induced, whether from specific chemicals, or from the array of chemicals firing from the presence of another, specific person.
Quote:
Icelander said:
However my childhood held almost no examples of joy and I did not learn how to experience it.
this rings true with me. however, i don't think that means one can't learn it throughout their life. there were definitely times of happiness in my childhood, but they were quickly shattered, or helped to be forgotten, but a drunk and abusive father.
it's hard for me to accept even good, or wonderful things without questioning them, or being suspicious of them so much that they tend to lose a degree of what IS good or wonderful about them
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channel your inner Larry David
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: demiu5]
#9079162 - 10/14/08 11:11 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
*joy of life
No, that would be "joie de vie." 
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: deCypher]
#9079178 - 10/14/08 11:14 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
Quote:
Veritas said:As adults cognizant of mortality, we have the opportunity to "use death as an advisor," and delve deeply into our lives. After all, what else is truly worth living for?
I tend to disagree with Socrates here. The examined life in the end is the life not worth living. I would find myself far more compelled to carpe diem if I knew that I could live forever (as then my death would have meaning.) As is, I know I'm going to die some day--anything I can do will only extend or shorten this duration.
"Seize the day" does not apply if you have a limitless supply of days. Since we have a limited supply, and nothing that we can do will change that, why not enjoy what we have until we don't have any more?
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: Veritas]
#9079180 - 10/14/08 11:15 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:Since we have a limited supply, and nothing that we can do will change that
Says you. I'm still striving for immortality over here. 
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc:
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: deCypher]
#9079186 - 10/14/08 11:16 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
Quote:
Veritas said:Since we have a limited supply, and nothing that we can do will change that
Says you. I'm still striving for immortality over here.
So far, Ive managed to not die %100 of the time, so I figure my chances are pretty good.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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I make up for this disparaging track record by trying to have a nigh-continuous experience of le petit mort.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: deCypher]
#9079202 - 10/14/08 11:20 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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demiu5
humans, lol
Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: Veritas]
#9079274 - 10/14/08 11:35 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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vivre, isn't that "to live?"
yea, i'm a bit drunk, so...
plus i haven't had french in 6 years
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channel your inner Larry David
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,173
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: Lion]
#9079855 - 10/15/08 05:02 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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realistically,
our minds are natural at clinging as well as being fundamentally luminous.
the joy comes with gentle clinging.
the joy -AKA absorptive side effects -AKA jhana factor
comes from being engaged
the pain comes from not dis-engaging suitably.
clinging and luminous are natural,
letting go is a skill we need to keep re-learning
this is not the buddhist story that you will hear from the average buddhist. but it is the essential core of buddhism.
Quote:
Lion said:
I like the Buddhist approach to enjoyment of life: Our minds are naturally luminous and joyful, but are made otherwise by self-clinging. When we are clinging to concepts of who we are and how we are being perceived, we are alienated from our experience. The key to joy is in letting go of confining self-images and allowing ourselves a little space to step back and just be.
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 _  🧠 _ 
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WhiskeyClone
Not here
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,509
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Canada ...
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: demiu5]
#9080035 - 10/15/08 07:26 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
demius said:
vivre, isn't that "to live?"
yea, i'm a bit drunk, so...
plus i haven't had french in 6 years
Yes, vivre is the infinitive, "to live." "Joy of to live" doesn't work grammatically in English so joie de vivre translates best to "joy of living". But like many translations, it isn't quite equivalent, best to keep it French.
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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man. For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire. Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.
~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"
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demiu5
humans, lol
Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium
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transitive words were a bitch
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channel your inner Larry David
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Mais oui, monsieur! 
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 3 months, 9 days
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: Veritas]
#9085402 - 10/16/08 07:19 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Joy in living. It seems that we are born knowing how to enjoy living, and then we forget or are taught to do something else.
We place our joy in the future or the past, imagining that it will come someday or that we had it once & don't have it now. We look for joy in other people, in a career, in material success, and sometimes mistakenly believe that we have "found" it there.
It seems to me that joy is an approach to life, and not something produced by events or things. When we meet life with an orientation towards wonder, pleasure, excitement, passion & fun, we experience joie de vivre.
What have you noticed about enjoyment?
Thanks, I like that question.
Joy in life started late for me. Sure I reveled, but I was too full of angst to fully appreciate the joy of life. But later when I was able to start relaxing I realized that there is joy everywhere, even in misery.
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...or something
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Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: Veritas]
#9089820 - 10/17/08 12:58 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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why is it wrong to be unhappy?
why do people feel ashamed to admit this?
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc:
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I dont think anyone has said that it is.
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 3 months, 9 days
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I think it's important to feel joy.
It started for me about at age thirty five or so when my world started to really fall apart. Katrina, career, a bunch of other shit. Then though I started feeling this inner peace and joy, mostly in the early morning hours. I meditated daily. I blame the ability to fixate on joy on my late guru who gave me a sadhana about the topic.
So for me, I have studied and meditated on the current of actual joy of life.
Some people ask, why is it important to feel joy in life? I have to answer that it's because joy is the vital essence of life itself. To feel joy one only need to renew their own life vitality which happens easiest through relaxation.
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...or something
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eve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
Registered: 04/30/03
Posts: 3,910
Loc: isle de la muerte
Last seen: 3 months, 9 days
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: Lion]
#9090373 - 10/17/08 06:47 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lion said:
I like the Buddhist approach to enjoyment of life: Our minds are naturally luminous and joyful, but are made otherwise by self-clinging. When we are clinging to concepts of who we are and how we are being perceived, we are alienated from our experience. The key to joy is in letting go of confining self-images and allowing ourselves a little space to step back and just be.
The Aleph is the breath of life, the windbag, the clown. Yes, this also is wisdom, see the nine wheels or sephirim on the fool's garb. He himself though is the one above the aether, having no need of either wisdom or understanding as the fool is one with life itself.
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...or something
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Joie de Vivre! [Re: eve69]
#9093314 - 10/17/08 07:22 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Fool is cool
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
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Quote:
blewmeanie said:
I dont think anyone has said that it is.
1st it's implicit in the thread
2nd it's an opinion i often meet
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
Lakefingers said:
why is it wrong to be unhappy?
why do people feel ashamed to admit this?
It is not implicit in this thread that it is wrong to be unhappy. The experience of joy is different from the experience of unhappiness, but a discussion of joy in no way devalues or demonizes unhappiness.
It is unpleasant to be unhappy, and having a negative perspective on life seems to result in low energy & a lack of interest in being alive. In this way, unhappiness could be seen as "wrong," but I prefer to see it as an emotional smoke alarm which wakes us up to address the situation before it is too late.
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