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OfflineBrainChemistry
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This crazy life of ours.
    #9068520 - 10/12/08 10:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Life, Earth, the universe.....all of it simply awes me.

I wish I had the proper linguistic skills to be able to describe the incredible feeling I get when I truly stop and consider the magic that is our existence. The universe is so huge it simply defies imagination. Every day it seems like we discover something new that changes the way we think and perceive our lives. Will it ever stop? What sorts of things will we continue to discover?

There is life on this planet that is so ancient we can hardly understand how it has managed to exist so long. There are creatures in the deep crevices of the ocean that are so alien, we wonder how we they can have evolved on the same planet. How many different varieties of life exist on this tiny ball orbiting the Sun? Millions...billions...trillions? Who knows...we discover new forms of life all the time.

Somehow out of all of this, out of super hot stars exploding, and out of diffuse gases dispersing and regathering, our planet was formed. And somehow, out of all of this, molecules and proteins came together to form a structure that survives and perpetuate itself. It forms life. Next thing you know, life is evolving, changing, and adapting.

Then somewhere along the line, humans pop out. And we make a leap of consciousness that separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom...and we start becoming aware of what we are and what this life is we are living. And we look at the animals and the universe and wonder...what makes it all tick.

Well..what does make it all tick?

"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." - Albert Einstein


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Offlinesatyr
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #9068534 - 10/12/08 10:06 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

My question is, whether or not the human mind has the ability to understand what makes it tick. I have SEEN and FELT that force, the underlying essence that makes it all possible, while under certain psychedelics. But as my awareness makes its return into this body, it all becomes once again unfathomable. Does the body have the capability and the means to process and understand this data?


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: satyr]
    #9068578 - 10/12/08 10:16 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

satyr said:
My question is, whether or not the human mind has the ability to understand what makes it tick. I have SEEN and FELT that force, the underlying essence that makes it all possible, while under certain psychedelics. But as my awareness makes its return into this body, it all becomes once again unfathomable. Does the body have the capability and the means to process and understand this data?





it does, but not in a waking/conscious state, at least permanently

:sun:


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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: demiu5]
    #9068661 - 10/12/08 10:34 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

We truly are very different from the animal kingdom. I feel we are about to make another leap in consciousness... perhaps evolution is more spontaneous than natural selection.

Can't you all feel it in your hearts? The change that is coming. I can't live in this world, I need to break freeeeeeeee. I want to travel the universe and tread on the pioneering edge of mankind.

This world used to be undiscovered and magical for humans. This postmodern age had taken a lot of the mystery out of the world. Columbus could sail the oceans. What is there for us to explore? It seems consciousness itself is the next step to discover.

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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9068683 - 10/12/08 10:39 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
We truly are very different from the animal kingdom.






that's sheer and utter bullshit, and is a major factor why we are in all the shit we are currently in as a species


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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: demiu5]
    #9068728 - 10/12/08 10:52 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

demius said:
Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
We truly are very different from the animal kingdom.






that's sheer and utter bullshit, and is a major factor why we are in all the shit we are currently in as a species




Can you elaborate?

I'm all for living in harmony with nature, but I'm willing to admit we need to put a human "spin" on it.

You could give me just as many reason why we are similar to animals as I can we are different, but the point is we still are different.

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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9068763 - 10/12/08 11:01 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

you are an animal, and nothing more.  if we are spiritual, soul-filled beings, then so is every other living organism.  we share virtually identical (in function) structures as many other mammals and various other animals.  you sneeze, as do many other mammals, you digest food similarly to many other animals.  our dna is roughly 98% the same as chimpanzees

there is no living in harmony with nature, or at least there shouldn't have to be.  we are nature, and we are of nature. 

the only relevant differences are in our complexity of societal structure and vast "intelligence" (measured by our own created devices)




we are just fucking animals, people!  get over yourselves if you think otherwise


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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: demiu5]
    #9068914 - 10/12/08 11:35 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Do animals love and hate? Cry and laugh?
Do animals build nuclear weapons?
Do animals form governments?
Do animals argue via the internet?

Dolphins are nearly as smart as humans and they don't do these things...

Would you consider your life valuable? More than that of an animal? More than that of an insect? Where does the cutoff for value and invaluable begin?

I believe we have the ability to be the true stewards of this planet. Harness our intellect for love!

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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: demiu5]
    #9068917 - 10/12/08 11:36 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

demius said:
you are an animal, and nothing more.  if we are spiritual, soul-filled beings, then so is every other living organism. 




You have no argument here!

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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9068985 - 10/12/08 11:53 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Do animals love and hate? Cry and laugh?




yes.  there have been cases of bonobos (mothers) who carry their dead infants around for days, don't eat, and constantly cradle the infants while making sad calling sounds (it doesn't take a human to know what the sound of an unhappy or in-distress animal sounds like)

Quote:

Do animals build nuclear weapons?




apparently we do

Quote:

Do animals form governments?




apparently we do

Quote:

Do animals argue via the internet?




apparently you and i do

Quote:

Dolphins are nearly as smart as humans and they don't do these things...




yes, because dolphins don't have the capacity.  do you have the capacity to obtain oxygen from water?  do you have the capacity to use your tail as a grasping "hand"?  no, because you don't have the physical organs necessary.  your argument here is invalid, as most other animals don't have the appendages or organs necessary to do the things we do

Quote:

Would you consider your life valuable? More than that of an animal? More than that of an insect? Where does the cutoff for value and invaluable begin?




my life?  by no means, no, i am not valuable at all.  and neither are you, nor anyone else, nor any dog, cat, elephant, cricket, or that spider and wasp that i smashed this afternoon.  but we are all valuable, and not.  there is no cut off, life and death happens.  that's all there is to it

Quote:

I believe we have the ability to be the true stewards of this planet. Harness our intellect for love!




as do i, but that doesn't mean that we own or control, or have any right to this planet or life.  it just means that we are here, and should be more conscious of our acitons that we know can harm other life, permanently...not that any of that matters



i know what you're trying to get out of me, and it's not going to come.  i've been there, i've thought that. 




Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
Quote:

demius said:
you are an animal, and nothing more.  if we are spiritual, soul-filled beings, then so is every other living organism. 




You have no argument here!





explain to me how we are more than animals, please






concerning your nuclear warfare and internet comments...we are "scientists" performing a grand experiment which no other animal has performed or had the capacity to perform (as none ever has before).  our way of life and everything that happens concerning our species (excluding those few remaining, unadultered indigenous tribes) has never happened before, and we are acting, living it out.  we are seeing what happens without realizing that we are seeing what happens


i feel i should expand on the "government" idea as well, because primates and other animals (bees, for example) clearly form hierarchies where one or a few (comapred to the total population) distribute orders.  look at any primate for example, or ants, or wolves


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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: demiu5]
    #9069088 - 10/13/08 12:26 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Honestly you guys have steered this discussion into a dead end.

Humans are humans....why are you trying to categorize us. And why is it so important to you?


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #9069288 - 10/13/08 01:22 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

becuase that's what humans do.  put things into places that humans created in the first place


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #9070409 - 10/13/08 10:23 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BrainChemistry said:
Then somewhere along the line, humans pop out. And we make a leap of consciousness that separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom




Sources? :wink:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9070520 - 10/13/08 10:53 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

, but the point is we still are different.

this could be said about any animal or thing:tongue: You are not making a point here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: deCypher]
    #9070789 - 10/13/08 12:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Quote:

BrainChemistry said:
Then somewhere along the line, humans pop out. And we make a leap of consciousness that separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom




Sources? :wink:




Myself.

All i state is we are a very unique member of the animal kingdom. Sort of like fungus, or extremophiles. The same, but different.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #9071311 - 10/13/08 02:21 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

OK, but still, what makes you quick to leap to the conclusion that animal consciousnesses differ from human consciousnesses?


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Invisibledeimya
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #9071474 - 10/13/08 03:05 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Thinking is an ability which sometimes indulge in itself. I don't think it has that much to do with consciousness, but rather about thinking about consciousness, and thinking about thinking.

Dogs might be able to smell that we are an impressive bunch of incapable stinking smellers after all. I'm sure they can sense it intuitively, without thinking that much. But they might indulge also, in the form of loving the smell of themselves smelling deeper, further and wider than everything else.

Setting ourselves apart might be premature.

Edited by deimya (10/13/08 03:11 PM)

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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: deCypher]
    #9071570 - 10/13/08 03:31 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
OK, but still, what makes you quick to leap to the conclusion that animal consciousnesses differ from human consciousnesses?




Alright, you wanted some sources.

How about its our genes that make us different. Sure, we are mostly all the same...but that tiny fraction of a percentage might contain all the information to spawn a unique form of consciousness.

Taken from the end of the essay:

Quote:

While not all genes’ functions are known, there are many genes that are involved with the development of the brain that are different from other mammals, and specifically from other primates.[3] These genes are involved in determining how many neurons there are as well as brain size during embryonic development. There is not much difference between species in the genes that do routine “house-keeping” in the nervous system, which are those that are involved in the most basic cellular functions such as metabolism and protein synthesis. [xv] However, two genes have been identified—the story of which is fascinating in itself--that are specific regulators of brain size: microcephalin[xvi] and ASPM (abnormal spindle-like microcephaly associated.)[4] [xvii] These genes were discovered because a defect in them caused a problem that was passed on through birth to other family members. Defects in either of these genes lead to primary microcephaly, an autosomal recessive[5] neurodevelopmental disorder. Two principal features characterize this disorder: a markedly reduced head size that is the consequence of a small but architecturally normal brain, and nonprogressive mental retardation. The genes were named for the disease that they caused if they were defective.[6] It is the cerebral cortex (remember this point) that shows the greatest size reduction. In fact the brain size is so markedly decreased (three standard deviations below normal) that it is comparable in size to that of early hominids![xviii]

Recent research from Bruce Lahn, a professor of genetics at the University of Chicago and The Howard Hughs Medical Institute, and his lab has shown that both of these genes have undergone significant changes under the pressure of natural selection during the evolution of Homo sapiens. Microcephalin (without the defect) showed evidence of accelerated evolution along the entire primate lineage[xix] and ASPM (also without the defect) has evolved most rapidly after the divergence of humans and chimps[xx], implicating these genes as the cause of the rapidly exploding brain size of our ancestors.

Accelerated evolution means what it sounds like. This gene was a hot item that produced a characteristic that gave its owners an obvious competitive advantage. Whoever had it had more offspring, and it became the dominant gene. Not complacent with these findings, these researchers wondered if these genes could be used to answer the question of whether the human brain was continuing to evolve. It turns out that they could and it is. They reasoned that if a gene has evolved adaptively in the making of the human species, such as these genes that increase brain size, then it may still be doing so. How do you figure this out?

Scientists compared the genetic sequences of ethnically and geographically diverse people from around the world and found that the genes which code for the nervous systems, had some sequence differences (known as polymorphisms) among individuals. By analyzing human and chimpanzee polymorphism patterns, genetic probabilities and various other genetic tools, and geographical distributions, they found evidence that some of these genes are experiencing ongoing positive selection in humans. They calculated that one genetic variant of microcephalin arose approximately 37,000 years ago, which coincides with the emergence of culturally modern humans, and it increased in frequency too rapidly to be compatible with random genetic drift or population migration. This suggests that it underwent positive selection.[xxi] An ASPM variant arose about 5800 years ago, coincident with the spread of agriculture, cities and the first record of written language. It too is found in such high frequencies in the population, that it indicates strong positive selection.[xxii]

This all sounds promising. We’ve got the big brains. Some of those big brains have discovered at least some of the genes that code for the big brains, and the genes appear to have changed at key times in our evolution. Doesn’t this mean they caused it all to happen and that they are what make us unique? What we don’t know is if the genetic changes caused the cultural changes or were synergistic[xxiii], and even if they did, what exactly is going on in those big brains and how is it happening? Is it just happening in ours or is it happening but just to a lesser extent in our relative the chimps? [7]






http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/gazzaniga08/gazzaniga08_index.html

Also at some point, we began to eat differently and require a different amount of energy than other primates, leading to a change in our brain structure.

http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/comp-anat/comp-anat-4a.shtml

I guess does any of this prove we have higher consciousness than other animals....no, not definitively. But...I honestly don't think animals sit and contemplate the existence of the universe as much as I do (or as much as any human can, if they chose). Therefore, I say our consciousness is vastly different from theirs.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #9071667 - 10/13/08 03:58 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with you that it's likely, but as you say hard proof is impossible.

One has to wonder, though--does having that extra consciousness make us less or more happy than animals?  Perhaps we'd be better off if we couldn't reflect on our own impending mortality, and instead simply live in the moment?


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #9071711 - 10/13/08 04:07 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

But...I honestly don't think animals sit and contemplate the existence of the universe as much as I do (or as much as any human can, if they chose). Therefore, I say our consciousness is vastly different from theirs.





a) there is no possible way you could ever know how much or little an animal contemplates existence and everything that goes along with that.

b) and how does that support that we are above or somehow better than animals?


i agree with cypher here, i think our species would be a lot more peaceful if we didn't constantly reflect on life


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OfflineBrainChemistry
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: deCypher]
    #9071717 - 10/13/08 04:08 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

That, I think, depends on how you define emotions. Does one have to be aware of the emotion they are having to say they are "experiencing" it?

An animal might appear sad or happy to us, but in reality its brain might just be executing functions that display these characteristics. It might not "feel" sad and happy as we do.

On thing is for sure...our intellectuality does come at a cost. Look at the amount of mental illness we have in our species. The amount of people who are unstable, who decide the best option is to just kill themselves. It seems that with the increased complexity of our brains comes and increased ability for them to become mis-wired and damaged.

Sort of like modern electronics. :cool:


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: BrainChemistry]
    #9071723 - 10/13/08 04:10 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BrainChemistry said:
An animal might appear sad or happy to us, but in reality its brain might just be executing functions that display these characteristics. It might not "feel" sad and happy as we do.




One could apply the same argument to your fellow humans--maybe everyone else are just humanoid robots built to behave in certain manners.  How do you know anyone else but you really feels emotions, or really is conscious?


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Offlinesatyr
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: demiu5]
    #9071761 - 10/13/08 04:15 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


i agree with cypher here, i think our species would be a lot more peaceful if we didn't constantly reflect on life


I dont think our species would be any more peaceful, but it would definitely end some of the primary motivators of violence and seperatism. i.e. religion, the constant worry of survival.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: satyr]
    #9071792 - 10/13/08 04:18 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Animals are just as violent as humans--sometimes even more so.

Perhaps not reflecting on life would simply give us less opportunity to rationalize violence in the name of a cause--the bare-face honesty of wilderness survival seems more tolerable than attempting to dress up brute force in the name of reason.

The passions of murder and love are inseparably connected in our ancestry.  All civilization has done is to teach us to pretend to idealize them.
--Aleister Crowley


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: satyr]
    #9071816 - 10/13/08 04:22 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

satyr said:
Quote:


i agree with cypher here, i think our species would be a lot more peaceful if we didn't constantly reflect on life


I dont think our species would be any more peaceful, but it would definitely end some of the primary motivators of violence and seperatism. i.e. religion, the constant worry of survival.





i didn't mean peaceful as in warfare.  i meant it similar to serene or at peace with the world


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Offlinesatyr
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: deCypher]
    #9071831 - 10/13/08 04:25 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Animals are just as violent as humans--sometimes even more so.

Perhaps not reflecting on life would simply give us less opportunity to rationalize violence in the name of a cause--the bare-face honesty of wilderness survival seems more tolerable than attempting to dress up brute force in the name of reason.

The passions of murder and love are inseparably connected in our ancestry.  All civilization has done is to teach us to pretend to idealize them.
--Aleister Crowley


This is what I mean about religion. Violent crime out of raw animal instinct such anger, lust and hate do not compare to violence for a cause. War, the inquisition, the salem witch trials. The result of human speculation has proven its full destructive potential time and time again.


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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: satyr]
    #9071852 - 10/13/08 04:29 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Conversely, human speculation has brought many good things such as advanced medical technology, health-care to millions, and the distribution of food and water to countless souls.

With the bad, so too comes the good.


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Offlinesatyr
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: deCypher]
    #9071908 - 10/13/08 04:42 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

This is why I dont consider it a bad thing. really, I dont consider anything good or bad, as I dont believe in these polarities.
But I think the point has been made, that there is nothing to suggest that animals are any less conscious than us, though we have the power of speculation and reason.


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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: satyr]
    #9072060 - 10/13/08 05:22 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Humans alter and change their environment, animals live within in.

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Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9072070 - 10/13/08 05:25 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

ummmm, what?

what about ants, or moles, or spiders who burrow and make underground homes?  what about birds who build nests?

we're still living within our environment, by the way, and most houses are made out of natural materials, whether organic or inorganic (brick, clay, cob, wood, stone)


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InvisibleSleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
Re: This crazy life of ours. [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #9074171 - 10/13/08 11:59 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Hmm..



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