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Offlineyoubreakyoubuy
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Re: This depression is going to kill me if psychedelics/therapy can't end it [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9068043 - 10/12/08 07:59 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Do something out of character.

And keep on truckin'.

Depression sucks.  My general psychology text called it the 'common cold' of mental illnesses.  I went through a very rough period for a while.  Life seemed so very, very hard.  I agree that exercise DOES help.  Whenever you find something that you enjoy try to latch on to what makes it great and try to follow up on it.  Good luck


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Let that which doesn't matter truly not matter.


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OfflineNature Boy
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Re: This depression is going to kill me if psychedelics/therapy can't end it [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9068228 - 10/12/08 08:49 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Ok...so lets say that all you say is true.  Where is the path out for a depressed person?  Whether behavioral or organic, what do you see as the route for a depressed person that would reliably leads to a realm that they would feel is on par with everyone else's level of contentment?

Tough question, I know...but is there a way to "bootstrap" your way out of a bona fide depression?
I suspect what may be called for here is a professional who is nearer at hand than we are.

N.B.


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All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies.  Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit.  Note well:  Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend.  If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.

                                                                               


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: This depression is going to kill me if psychedelics/therapy can't end it [Re: Nature Boy]
    #9068259 - 10/12/08 08:57 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Heres one of the faulty assumptions that depressed people make - that they are different, or not normal, for having these thoughts.

Everyone gets depressed, but some people only get depressed a few times a year, others every few weeks, others every day, others multiple times a day, others might be depressed during a specific part of their life,others might be the same but this specific part of their life is more integral or longlasting. etc.

There is no easy fix for depression. If there was, it would be like saying that depressed people arent PEOPLE. you cant just change a person unless you manipulate them and reduce their personhood

Anti-depressants flatten people out and make them less involved with the world, less personlike.

One of the biggest causes of depression, I believe, is when people feel guilty for what they want in life or in themselves. As if, to want the things that they want is lowly in itself, and thus a person feels depressed to not have a life that they want, and simultaneously depressed that they want those things in the first place. So they end up living as if they dont want anything, and thus cannot find value or meaning in life, and thus cannot find value or meaning in themselves


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: This depression is going to kill me if psychedelics/therapy can't end it [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9068271 - 10/12/08 08:59 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
....But we live in an abnormal human world that has advanced far past our species itself, which is still designed to live a village life full of personal goals and group convictions, where each person finds a place and maintains their self-esteem daily.
....




that atavistic utopia would have been hell for me.
i would never have fit in and am much happier out of that stifling community design.

I would not blame society, or others or parents.
food maybe,
to a small degree.

many people did not fit in during prehistoric times,
they would die in the hunt or in the field or in childbirth or in an allergy reaction. the old ways were not better.

depression, ocd etc. are natural results of mentation.
the same mentation that revealed the four noble truths.

i do find that vipassana helps me get out of loops


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: This depression is going to kill me if psychedelics/therapy can't end it [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9068312 - 10/12/08 09:09 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Prehistoric? I do not mean primitive humans. I mean the species we are now. We have existed this way for tens of thousands of years, and only in the last three thousand or so have things really picked up. We exist in a world of technology, of global governments and of massive cities. Of communities that have no identity, and identities that are seperate from the people themselves. This has only become possible across the last few hundreds of years.


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Offlinearpnuke
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Re: This depression is going to kill me if psychedelics/therapy can't end it [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9068790 - 10/12/08 11:08 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Change is needed as things have been staying the same when nothing changes in my life.  I need to get back into exercise.  In the past that has helped me have some energy to do stuff besides sleep or listen to music during my free time.  My last few trips have gotten me to see the effort required to get where I want to go and it isn't easy.  It's simple enough to work an easy, shitty job for shitty pay for moments of intoxication with opiates/opiods.  After my last trip I don't even like slacking with video games/tv or what not.  It's just something to pass the time until I can sleep.  I have to mention that since my mescaline trip dreams have been MUCH better.  I remember them consistently, they have complex plots and fun stuff going on, and are not "messed up."

The path to my life goals that psychedelics revealed recently had bummed me out a bit because it is a LONG WAY!  On the last trip while we were analyzing an infomercial, my friend said, "Our species is lazy as shit.  We'll go the easiest path always.  It's like it's part of our nature."  That seems very true and I feel like a wimp for considering leaving this world because stuff would be too hard.  Life in our society is emotionally/spiritually difficult and getting to where I'd like to be is difficult.  I guess it's either try or leave rather than dick around and hope things will happen for me.

I have a question about meditation.  During my last trip I went to larry carlson's medjitate site:  http://www.larrycarlson.com/medijate/index.htm ; It had some great stuff, but one particular thing I pulled from the text shape was that his site, medijtate -- me du ate -- me do it -- larry carlson meditate's for you.  When I wanted to get into meditation in the past I'd turn off the lights and find a comfortable spot to sit and clear my mind or not.  After a while silencing thoughts became boring despite having its uses.  Is meditation a time to dream or imagine once societal, "Have I payed the rent" "I can't believe I said that" etc are under control?  How do you guys meditate and what keeps you doing it for years?  It seems great, but I usually stop after a month of daily meditation.


I'd been putting off reading The Noble Eightfold Path
The Way to the End of Suffering
by
Bhikkhu Bodhi (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html).  Looks good and I could use good advice and doing less thinking for a bit.  What do you Buddhists think about the text?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: This depression is going to kill me if psychedelics/therapy can't end it [Re: arpnuke]
    #9069766 - 10/13/08 05:32 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

noteworthy: most villages were prehistoric as little as 50 years ago.
i.e. facts were obscured by alpha male oppression

arnpuke; i am a systems kind of guy
professionally I do computer systems
artistically I paint and draw, and each piece is like a system
I have been interested in the mind since I was a kid:
"when different kids see a red ball is it really the same color to each of them?"


initially I reviewed hypnosis and "ugghhh - self hypnosis" (age 11 - library books)
then I got into eastern things, and finally was enchanted with the systems approach that Buddhism has. (and the mandalas and thankhas)

I don't know the book you mentioned. can't recommend any specifically for your temperament. I just like the systems approach to mind and life in general that emerges in basic Buddhism.

I like the simplest and most basic meditation in which no visualization or imagination is exercised, mere following the breath is best IMO.

however my earliest experiences with meditation were very complex yogic excursions.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: This depression is going to kill me if psychedelics/therapy can't end it [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9069823 - 10/13/08 06:15 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

I would say that you enjoy those things because you were brought up with them and for whatever reasons you identified to them. But had you grown up in a village.. you probably would have found your own things to do

I dont want to go back to the old times myself, my identity is definately built on many things that are modern.

But I still believe that the old way was healthier on the mind and soul. 

ps. what is this male fact oppression business?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: This depression is going to kill me if psychedelics/therapy can't end it [Re: Noteworthy]
    #9069900 - 10/13/08 07:14 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

my distate for domination and the protection rackets:
to pursue one's interests, one needs to find zones that are not oppressed by viking troglodytes and such.
unless one wants to built up their own troglodytic skills and compete amidst the primitive crowds.
the simple reality of it is nearly mathematical.
anyway, such escape was harder in the old days I think.


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OfflineNature Boy
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Re: This depression is going to kill me if psychedelics/therapy can't end it [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9069978 - 10/13/08 08:00 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

I like the simplest and most basic meditation in which no visualization or imagination is exercised, mere following the breath is best IMO.





I agree.  Here is a pretty good animation and example of that meditation technique. 


Hope this proves productive for you, OP.  :peace:

N.B.


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All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies.  Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit.  Note well:  Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend.  If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.

                                                                               


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: This depression is going to kill me if psychedelics/therapy can't end it [Re: Nature Boy]
    #9070131 - 10/13/08 09:03 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Nature Boy said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:

I like the simplest and most basic meditation in which no visualization or imagination is exercised, mere following the breath is best IMO.





I agree.  Here is a pretty good animation and example of that meditation technique.  {flash video here}

Hope this proves productive for you, OP.  :peace:

N.B.




well,
I don't exactly go for that sort of approach, which I think is full of contradictions(1) and aspirations(2) that are not required(3), and can interfere with meditation where those ideas are not accessible.

(1) the narrator elucidates a practice that stops thoughts, but actually following the breath is thought, it is no different in composition than other thought except for being very simple, engaging localized sensation and gentle open attitude.
I do not reccommend making any special effort to stop thoughts, just to begin this practice and sustain it. Everything that follows takes care of itself.
In summary there is no separating thinking from meditating, there is only the subtle and continuous effort to focus it onto the object of interest:

i.e. the beginning middle and end of the in breath and the out breath, and it is very useful to keep sensitive to the tip of the nose through out this.

(2) the narrator suggests etheric and cosmic energy arriving after energy gathers at the "third eye position" while achieving the no-thought state - as if this were the reward of meditation.
the phenomena that are sensed at the 3rd eye position are also thought, composed of the same energy as thought and not different or better than thought.

(3) I say not required, but it is smug of me. many people do need a story or some authorized dream to follow - clear understanding is not that important; but relief and acceptance by others is very important.

also not required for meditation is the precise physical positionment of the body. any position will do,
and any body will do, one need not be a physical duplicate of a buddha to see all there is.

maybe what is useful is to widen the understanding of what thought is, and to clarify what mental states are.

thought is mental content of all kinds.
sensation is a special kind of thought that connects to the happenning world of which we are part.
memory is the thought objects that resonate out of mind that relate in some way to the sensation and other thought objects that have surfaced.
meditation is directed thought which is sustained.

states of mind range from slightly resonant to intensely resonant and are characterized by how long thought objects resonate in mind.

the more resonant states of mind allow for more vibrational interference between thought objects which gives rise to secondary "realities" such as the 3rd eye sensations, and being "infused with light"- from sustained meditation upon something: this is where dreams, meditation, emotion, and psychedelics cross over.

what challenges people in the mental health arena is ballancing the change of mental states, and the mental content that resonates in the space provided by those changing mental states.

all I can do is encourage people to do things that are healthful so that when momentum is gathered and the train seems to run away by itself, it is easier to get back on track.

it does not really matter what you do for meditation, all techniques eventually converge. (i apologize for my rant if it offended any)


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OfflineNature Boy
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Re: This depression is going to kill me if psychedelics/therapy can't end it [Re: redgreenvines]
    #9070485 - 10/13/08 10:44 AM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
it does not really matter what you do for meditation, all techniques eventually converge. (i apologize for my rant if it offended any)




I agree with most everything that you said.  I offered the youtube animation to the OP because it was illustrative of the follow-the-breath meditation technique.

I for one, kneel on a meditation bench (I'm 50+ and cross-legged is tough on my hips and groin), and will often meditate laying down prior to going to sleep or upon waking.  In our gampa, almost everyone sits upright in chairs, with a few members sitting cross-legged on the floor (all women).

Despite the shortcomings, the vid suffices to get a person started.  And, yeah, I forgot about the cosmic energy part.  I have't watched it full-through in a long time.  I had it bookmarked for a year or more.  The ones I wanted to post had been removed from youtube over some "violation of use" issue - probably a copyright infringement thing.

Just for the record, I'm not offended!  :lol:

N.B.


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All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies.  Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit.  Note well:  Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend.  If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.

                                                                               


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OfflineZinglons Acolyte
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Re: This depression is going to kill me if psychedelics/therapy can't end it [Re: ReefaCheefa]
    #9071709 - 10/13/08 04:07 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ReefaCheefa said:
Quote:

Mark_W said:
ok, you can call me naive, dumb, or whatever...but what the hell is depression? I mean this in a philosophical way, not in a Western medicine clinical "science" way.

It seems to me that depression would be a healthy response to the conditions we in the West are raised in...to an extent.
Being pushed into a rat race, and dealing with the injustices of consumer capitalism and all of that...if someone dealt with that stuff happily, that's what I would call a disorder.

Basically, I'd say some Mdma can help the most for realizing what we as individuals and as a society can be...but we are so far gone from that ideal that I totally understand how people can get depressed, perhaps I am myself to a fair extent.

Anyways, good luck. Some of the greatest minds this world has ever known ever gone through periods of depression verging on suicide, many have found their God and been inspired to tell their story.

I don't want to downplay the seriousness of the matter, but I also don't want to feed into the western clinical model of "depressed" vs. "normal". I think all that is an oversimplification.

Don't listen to doctors. Think deeply about what sort of a of system they've been sent through, and that should cure you of any blind faith you may have in our medical system. There's more hope in that statement than I'm probably conveying. Trust yourself, your intuition, your inner-voice, your conscience, or whatever, over all else.




I can't point out how wrong you actually are. Do you realize its a disease of the mind? You cannot control any aspect of it, and many of us are left with very little energy and motivation to do the things we need to do to change our lifestyle.

Depression is definitely a serious matter, and I do believe that psychs can help depression, because I have experienced it first hand. It hasn't "cured" me, but so far I have regained normal sleeping habits and lots of lost energy.

Aside from that, just changing your surroundings, friends, and habits can also break you from depression. I am definitely going to start exercising after reading through this thread though. It has given me a lot of insight.



i must agree with this, many of the posters here dont even know what true depression is
true depression is fucking opressive and debilitating. it crushes your spirit and makes you believe that there is no hope, past present or future, even though you know that hope exists it becomes impossible to experience it

i agree as well with the statement that antidepressants flatten people out, they are not the answer

i have bipolar disorde and to treat depression the best thing i can advocate is meditation, lately however i personally have not been able to meditate, and i have had lets see, 3 or 4 hypomanic episodes (4 or 5 days each) and at least 2 major depressive episodes (2 or 3 weeks usually) including about 2 weeks where i was afraid to go to sleep because i only had nightmares, im coming off a mild depressive episode now


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And they wandered off.. nine ways till bedfast.
-----
"And lets pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space 'cause theres bugger-all down here on earth!"  -Monty Python's "The Universe Song" from The Meaning of Life
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely considered as a bad move."  -Douglas Adams "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"
"If the words 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on." -Terence McKenna


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OfflineMark_W
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Re: This depression is going to kill me if psychedelics/therapy can't end it [Re: Zinglons Acolyte]
    #9072339 - 10/13/08 06:12 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Zinglons Acolyte said:
i must agree with this, many of the posters here dont even know what true depression is
true depression is fucking opressive and debilitating. it crushes your spirit and makes you believe that there is no hope, past present or future, even though you know that hope exists it becomes impossible to experience it





If you know that hope exists, then is that not a hopeful experience/thought? We can look at that in a glass-half-full way, right? I know that depression is oppressive and debilitating, but I'm more concerned with what I see as the cultural causes of depression.

Bringing the word "true" into the mix doesn't clear things up much. I tend to think its all on a continuum. How do you know that your definition of a mild or severe depressive episode isn't what I'm talking about? I mentioned people who were so depressed they were on the verge of suicide, is that not true depression?


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Let the State Disintegrate
-Leary


Edited by Mark_W (10/13/08 06:22 PM)


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OfflineZinglons Acolyte
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Re: This depression is going to kill me if psychedelics/therapy can't end it [Re: Mark_W]
    #9072387 - 10/13/08 06:22 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

hope becomes irrelevent, because everything is hopeless, even though my mind remembers hope, it no longer exists, and never did, even though it did exist
its a logic loop i know, and very illogical, but my mind gets trapped in it, and there is nothing to do but wait it out or medicate, cannabis usually helps when i have it

true depression isnt cause by a specific stimulus, it just is, what you were talking about is what i would consider just being at a low point
mine comes and goes in cycles, it isnt caused by stimuli, but stimuli often exasperate it, especially when people try to help


--------------------
And they wandered off.. nine ways till bedfast.
-----
"And lets pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space 'cause theres bugger-all down here on earth!"  -Monty Python's "The Universe Song" from The Meaning of Life
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely considered as a bad move."  -Douglas Adams "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy"
"If the words 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on." -Terence McKenna


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Offlinenonwo
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Re: This depression is going to kill me if psychedelics/therapy can't end it [Re: Entersandman]
    #9072414 - 10/13/08 06:29 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

go into the woods keep going further and further from the city live there make friends with the ants they will show u that life is beuty and so is pain pain gives life gives food shows us we are alive
when u are happy return from the woods but u will want to stay


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yellow red black and white cometogether as humans and fallow the path the creater intended


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OfflineMark_W
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Re: This depression is going to kill me if psychedelics/therapy can't end it [Re: Zinglons Acolyte]
    #9072501 - 10/13/08 06:49 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Ok, this is a complex issue. I don't believe that anything is either one or the other exclusively. You say that your depression isn't caused by stimuli, but I would imagine that you could fall in love and this would have a powerful impact, perhaps it would flip the switch to mania temporarily, I don't know. I just don't see how mood couldn't be affected, or triggered (positively as well as negatively) by stimuli and in ways that are often times too complex to even understand.
I think everyone goes through periods of happiness and depression, some more extreme than others, but the fluctuation is always there and things are on a sort of continuum. And stimulus is one of the factors involved. Whatever causes the happiness or the depression we can guess at, but as we are comprised of spirit and matter we can never say absolutely "It was this" or "It was that" and its sort of like the whole set/setting/dosage relationship to psychedelics that sometimes synergizes into a beautiful experience and other times doesn't.

But, for the purposes of empowering ourselves and feeling like we have control over stuff, it makes sense to place spirit over matter and not get reductionist about how everything is mere brain chemistry and we have no control. We do have control over our thoughts to an extent and our thoughts influence our happiness, and the more faith we have in this process it stands to reason that we'll be more successful in becoming more in control of our moods than we had previously thought.

BTW, I don't do this, I don't have lots of faith in this idea. I'm primarily a "matter over spirit" person, but I think I should change my head in this regard.


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Let the State Disintegrate
-Leary


Edited by Mark_W (10/13/08 06:59 PM)


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OfflineLocus
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Re: This depression is going to kill me if psychedelics/therapy can't end it [Re: arpnuke]
    #9072529 - 10/13/08 06:53 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

i think you should talk to a therapist and get on some antidepressants man. if psychedelics havent helped in the past theyre not likely to now like others have said.


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The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity. ~ Albert Einstein
"Fear is the great barrier to human growth." ~ Dr. Robert Monroe



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Offlinealkylbenzene23
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Re: This depression is going to kill me if psychedelics/therapy can't end it [Re: Psynsns]
    #9072795 - 10/13/08 07:44 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Psynsns said:
Pray.  Get in touch with the power greater than yourself and watch what happens.  This does not have to be couched in organized religion, but just a humble supplication to God to direct your life. Amazing changes should ensue if you follow the advice of your new friend.





I'm sorry, but God doesn't magically make everything better for you. This world is broken, Period.

As for advice to the OP, GET A Psychologist!!!, a Good one at that too many of the ones out there are crappy, and FFS don't LIE to them how the fuck can they help if you just feed them BS all the time. They are bound to major privacy laws, they can't say shit unless your like "I'm planning on killing _NAME_" in which case they'd probably just throw you in the psyc ward rather than tell the cops.


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Offlineretrospect
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Re: This depression is going to kill me if psychedelics/therapy can't end it [Re: alkylbenzene23]
    #9072894 - 10/13/08 08:08 PM (15 years, 3 months ago)

yeah i have to agree alot of people dont understand clinical depression and think curing it is as simple as thinking positively. when you are depressed you don't enjoy anything at all in life because you dont have the chemicals in your brain that create enjoyment. its not as simple as changing your thought processes to positive ones. when you cant enjoy anything at all it doesnt matter whether you think positive or negative. normally there is a cause for the lack of brain chemicals, in my experience it was all this stress going on in my life which i refused to deal with.


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