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 deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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 Re: Why do you continue living?  [Re: Icelander]
#9047172 - 10/08/08 11:18 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
We survive because that's what we've evolved to do by our very nature.
I'm not disagreeing but why do some choose to die?
Perhaps because we're capable of overcoming genetic instinct with human rationality? I can see three reasons why people commit suicide:
1.) Because they're undergoing so much misery and suffering at the moment that they would prefer non-existence to a life of agony and hell.
2.) Because they've come to the rational conclusion that in the grand scheme of things, life is meaningless.
3.) Because they believe that their soul is going to live forever once they die.
Are humans the only species that commits suicide?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Why do you continue living? [Re: deCypher]
#9047184 - 10/08/08 11:21 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
Actually of course it's impossible to cause emotional pain to others. They choose it or not.
Is this really true, though? I'd say that when something traumatic happens to someone, there is an unconscious and uncontrollable predisposition towards feeling a certain way. What we can do after this point is under our control, sure, and we can use the bonus of having a rational mind to choose the way we feel about a situation in the long term, but this does nothing to prevent that initial emotional impact.
Even viewing an event as "traumatic" is an interpretation. If one has not framed it as such in the first place, the event may be viewed as neutral.
Quote:
Are humans the only species that commits suicide?
It is impossible to confirm this, but it does seem that other animals commit suicide.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Why do you continue living? [Re: Veritas]
#9047197 - 10/08/08 11:23 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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But there do exist such events that the vast majority of humans would deem the experience as being traumatic.
Say your mother unexpectedly kills herself with no reason or apparent motivation.
Or a terrorist in broad daylight in front of you blows himself and fifteen other people up.
Sure, objectively speaking, the interpretation of these events could be deemed as not traumatic at all. But pragmatically speaking, you will unconsciously and uncontrollably be immediately affected by the experience.
Which other species do? I've heard that the lemmings was a myth.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Why do you continue living? [Re: deCypher]
#9047210 - 10/08/08 11:25 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Our reaction may occur "under the radar," but it is always based upon our established framework for the event. Part of the reason those events would be viewed as traumatic is that they were novel and surprising. What if such events occurred on a daily basis? Would the trauma be the same each time, or would it lessen as the novelty and surprise lessened?
Whales apparently beach themselves, dying dogs/cats/other higher mammals wander off & forgo food and water.  Again, it is impossible to verify the animal's intention, but their behavior does seem contrary to survival.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Why do you continue living? [Re: Veritas]
#9047219 - 10/08/08 11:27 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Desensitization can occur with any phenomenon. When we're talking about an event that's relatively novel to the context with which someone lives, then one can't help but feel an unconscious emotional reaction before rationality can help mediate things.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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 MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Why do you continue living? [Re: deCypher]
#9047222 - 10/08/08 11:28 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Why do we pursue pleasure? Because it feels good. Why do we pursue things that makes us feel good, though?
I can't tell you why others do that, or if everyone does it. I can only speak for myself, and my motivation to pursue the pleasure is because I rationally decided that it serves my best interests - it helps both my mental and physical well being.
There were things that felt good but I stopped doing them, because I have realized that they didn't serve me the way they should - for example I quit smoking tobacco. There are many ways of "feeling good", but some might end up as being harmful, and quitting a bad habit can feel very unpleasant in the beginning.
Maybe you mean to say that this is purely subjective, not irrational.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why do you continue living? [Re: Veritas]
#9047223 - 10/08/08 11:28 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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In war people get used to grizzly death but that first look is a doozy.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Why do you continue living? [Re: MushroomTrip]
#9047243 - 10/08/08 11:33 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
I can't tell you why others do that, or if everyone does it. I can only speak for myself, and my motivation to pursue the pleasure is because I rationally decided that it serves my best interests - it helps both my mental and physical well being.
It's always good to have one's long-term interests in mind rather than the short-term pleasure; I'll agree. But it seems you're just adding an additional link in the vicious circle.
Instead of pursuing short-term pleasure, you're pursuing long-term pleasure so you can feel happy and maximize your own survival. But again, why do you to wish to maximize your survival? So that you can have more time to feel happy and help your physical well-being. But why do you do this? And so on, ad infinitum.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Why do you continue living? [Re: deCypher]
#9047248 - 10/08/08 11:34 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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The key is to realize that the initial emotion tends to fade out very quickly unless we amplify and sustain it with our thoughts. Our expectations have much more to do with "trauma" than the event itself.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Why do you continue living? [Re: deCypher]
#9047261 - 10/08/08 11:37 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Pleasure is neither a circular argument nor an irrational motivation. What could be more rational than enjoying your life? It seems that you are seeking a deeper justification for enjoyment, when it stands perfectly well by itself.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Why do you continue living? [Re: Veritas]
#9047263 - 10/08/08 11:38 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I liked this passage from Diary of a Drug Fiend that I've been reading lately on this subject:
Quote:
I have learnt since then that certain races, particularly the Japanese, have made a definite science starting from this fact. For example, they clap their hands four times "in order to drive away evil spirits." That is, of course, only a figure of speech. What they really do is this: the physical gesture startles the mind out of its lethargy, so that the idea which has been troubling it is replaced by a new one. They have various dodges for securing a new one and making sure that the new one shall be pleasant.
It makes it seem also like we're not in total control of our thoughts--we only have a certain discretion as to which kind and what type appear to us in the moment of the now.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Boots
Disenchanted
Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Re: Why do you continue living? [Re: deCypher]
#9047266 - 10/08/08 11:38 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
Premise 1. Immortality is not possible within your lifetime.
Premise 2. You are going to die someday.
Conclusion. Why not get it over with right now and avoid extending the duration of your meaningless life? If you believe in an afterlife, why not experience this directly without having to wait for an interim period? If you don't believe in an afterlife, then your existence is pointless to begin with. Why do you feel compelled to keep on living?
I don't necessarily feel compelled to keep in living. I don't wake up and think of ways not to die or ways to extend my life. I continue living because others have chosen to let me live, and because the actions I take subconsciously are designed to let me live. Also, I don't believe in an afterlife, but I continue to live to reach my goal of becoming successful by America's standards.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Why do you continue living? [Re: Veritas]
#9047268 - 10/08/08 11:39 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
It seems that you are seeking a deeper justification for enjoyment, when it stands perfectly well by itself.
We justify enjoyment because we enjoy it. This is the essence of circularity, no?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: Why do you continue living? [Re: deCypher]
#9047310 - 10/08/08 11:47 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Ok then. What's rational in your view?
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Why do you continue living? [Re: deCypher]
#9047317 - 10/08/08 11:48 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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No, it does not need to be justified. This is what I'm saying...you're looking for justification when none exists or is needed. There is no lofty "because..." There is no higher authority to which we may appeal as to what is "valuable" or "worthless." We assign meaning as we choose, and we are the ultimate authority.
Enjoyment is worth living for. In an ultimately meaningless and purposeless existence, it is the ONLY thing worth living for.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why do you continue living? [Re: Veritas]
#9047334 - 10/08/08 11:52 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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IMO enjoyment is the only rational reason for living especially after you procreate. It seems like such a no brainer that joy and pleasure make living worthwhile. Yet there are many who disagree and I have to wonder about their mental health.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Why do you continue living? [Re: Icelander]
#9047341 - 10/08/08 11:53 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Procreation is not necessarily rational. Especially since the majority of pregnancies are unplanned. 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why do you continue living? [Re: Veritas]
#9047342 - 10/08/08 11:53 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
No, it does not need to be justified. This is what I'm saying...you're looking for justification when none exists or is needed. There is no lofty "because..." There is no higher authority to which we may appeal as to what is "valuable" or "worthless." We assign meaning as we choose, and we are the ultimate authority.
Enjoyment is worth living for. In an ultimately meaningless and purposeless existence, it is the ONLY thing worth living for.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc: 
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Re: Why do you continue living? [Re: deCypher]
#9047452 - 10/08/08 12:21 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
Why do you feel compelled to keep on living?
'cause fuck 'em that's why.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Why do you continue living? [Re: deCypher]
#9047491 - 10/08/08 12:28 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
It's the essence of a circular, irrational argument.
Would you put forth that choosing to end one's life is a decision based in rationality, then? 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
 
 
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