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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Lucky to be born a human!
#9042239 - 10/07/08 12:51 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Heard this statement the other day. While this has been covered before, it bears repeating as it is so silly.
There is no anteroom wherein a soul spins a giant, colored faro wheel that clicks off the various possibilities: Bacterium, Yeast, Mosquito, Centipede, Sparrow, Sea Cucumber, Sloth, Mole, Lemur, Red Panda, Chihuahua, Human...
HUMAN! *DING DING DING* We have a winner!
Sorry, it is nothing like that.
A variation on this nonsense is to say, "Dave was lucky to be born, tall, handsome and into a rich family!" At first glance this seems to make sense, but alas, it falls apart when looked at closely.
'Dave' could not be otherwise. 'Dave is an emergent property of the human whom you are discussing. He could not be otherwise.
Is a blue, 12 speed mountain bike lucky to be a blue 12 speed mountain bike? Not only is that silly, it is also circular.
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tripp23
Kratom Freak
Registered: 05/21/08
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Loc: Florida, US
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i think about that all the damn time..
-------------------- Experience my nightmarish first time of smoking Ganja!
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,336
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What is the difference between a bike, and a jelly fish (which has no brain)?
I'm not sure luck has anything to do with it, but I do feel appreciation for life. Where do jellyfish fit, in the comparison to bikes and Humans?
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free." ~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Lucky to be born a human! [Re: Rahz]
#9042704 - 10/07/08 02:22 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
What is the difference between a bike, and a jelly fish (which has no brain)?
A jellyfish has no spine/frame.
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Epigallo
Stranger
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Isn't a good poker hand just an emergent property of people playing poker? If you get a royal flush, can you not call yourself lucky? Why can one thing be called lucky and not another?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Lucky to be born a human! [Re: Epigallo]
#9042824 - 10/07/08 02:48 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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An Ace of Spades cannot be other than an Ace of Spades. It is neither lucky nor unlucky.
Bradley cannot be not Bradley.
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
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What if we feel lucky that we didn't have to be lucky?
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Epigallo
Stranger
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Before the hand is played, it could be. If I blinked and said "YESSS, still a royal flush!", that would be silly. g2g
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demiu5
humans, lol
Registered: 08/18/05
Posts: 43,948
Loc: the popcorn stadium
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what about feeling unlucky to have been born a human?
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Lucky to be born a human! [Re: demiu5]
#9042942 - 10/07/08 03:13 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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The whole concept is in error.
'You' is an emergent property. It could be no other way.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Please define emergent property.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Lucky to be born a human! [Re: deCypher]
#9043588 - 10/07/08 05:09 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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No.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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. Personally, I think emergent property is just the next catch-phrase for dualists who try to defend a non-physical consciousness. When looking at the empirical data, one is forced to conclude that brain states are mental states, rather than some ill-defined "emergent property" thereof.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Lucky to be born a human! [Re: deCypher]
#9043805 - 10/07/08 05:46 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Methinks you are missing the point. Is the bike in my example able to be other than a bike? Bike is the name for that configuration of steel and paint. If it was a different configuration, then it would not be a bike.
A human cannot be otherwise. A human cannot be a centipede. A person 'lucky' to be born in the USA (or country of your choice) cannot be born in Outer-Mongolia.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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I understand the point of your post; I was just going into depth about your statement "Dave is an emergent property of the human whom you are discussing," which is a bit more interesting IMO.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Lucky to be born a human! [Re: deCypher]
#9043833 - 10/07/08 05:50 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said: . Personally, I think emergent property is just the next catch-phrase for dualists who try to defend a non-physical consciousness. When looking at the empirical data, one is forced to conclude that brain states are mental states, rather than some ill-defined "emergent property" thereof.
This doesn't quite make sense to me. Emergent property would not support the supposition that there is non-physical consciousness. Or am I missing something?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Lucky to be born a human! [Re: Icelander]
#9043842 - 10/07/08 05:53 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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What does one mean when one says that consciousness "emerges" from a brain state? This isn't saying that consciousness is identical to the brain state, so where/what exactly is consciousness then?
IMO, it implies that it's not the brain state, and therefore can't be physical.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Lucky to be born a human! [Re: deCypher]
#9044157 - 10/07/08 06:52 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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An emergent property would not be non physical. The complexity of the human brain results naturally in what we call consciousness. It is result of our physicality. An ability made possible by the complexity of our physical brain. It is not separate from or above anything.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Lucky to be born a human! [Re: Icelander]
#9044270 - 10/07/08 07:13 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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So the human brain causes consciousness... is consciousness therefore physical, or non-physical? If it's physical, you're forced to say that it is the brain state, and if it's not, then where/what is it?
Consciousness "resulting from" a brain state couches what's actually going on in clever verbiage--what do you really mean when you say this?
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: There is no anteroom wherein a soul spins a giant, colored faro wheel that clicks off the various possibilities: Bacterium, Yeast, Mosquito, Centipede, Sparrow, Sea Cucumber, Sloth, Mole, Lemur, Red Panda, Chihuahua, Human... . HUMAN! *DING DING DING* We have a winner! . Sorry, it is nothing like that.
I KNEW that thread you made last week about what animal we would like to be was a set-up....
>^;;^<
-------------------- I'll be your midnight French Fry.... "The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...." >^;;^<
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