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Offlinefigmentfragment
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Registered: 04/10/07
Posts: 1,226
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Re: We need control [Re: zannennagara]
    #9035374 - 10/06/08 12:33 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zannennagara said:
Most things you do on a daily basis are already anarchic - things you've agreed to go along with of your own volition because you see a benefit. The government has written established laws, but people don't consult laws on a daily basis to govern their actions - we freely violate the ones that don't seem to harm other people while benefiting ourselves, while freely "choosing" not to kill other people or wreak havoc for far more practical reasons than governmental obedience.

What is the government really doing for citizens that couldn't be done easily without one? What really is a politician?




In a humorous way I feel our opinions could coincide quite nicely.

I agree our day to actions and the "common" morals we share. (despite the minority) We are quite capable of these personal decisions.

However my main argument is from a cynical point of view, that until we can unite and articulate viable alternatives, and until the population shrugs off its largely passive and apathetic nature. I can see no challenge to the established system, and therefore no real changes.

:shrug:


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Goodbye Shroomery.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: We need control [Re: figmentfragment]
    #9035410 - 10/06/08 12:46 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Anarchy invariably devolves back into government, as the armed thugs realize that they can gain more power and more control if they just band together to fight all the loners.

And, likewise, government invariably devolves back into anarchy, as soon as the bloated government turns into a totalitarian regime and the people revolt to break free from their chains.

It's the never-ending cycle.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: We need control [Re: deCypher]
    #9036905 - 10/06/08 11:50 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:

It ends when all the people go bye bye.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblezannennagara
Found in Space
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Registered: 09/25/08
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Re: We need control [Re: deCypher]
    #9037851 - 10/06/08 03:23 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
Anarchy invariably devolves back into government, as the armed thugs realize that they can gain more power and more control if they just band together to fight all the loners.

And, likewise, government invariably devolves back into anarchy, as soon as the bloated government turns into a totalitarian regime and the people revolt to break free from their chains.

It's the never-ending cycle.




Invariably? I think that it's only happened once, before anything else. Communes don't get run over by armed thugs, as far as I know, and the few brief large-scale anarchist societies (Spain, not much else) were run over by the already-established armed thugs of the dominant society outside. In a world society, anarchism can only really exist worldwide.

The revolutions we've had involved no plans for anarchism, but transferring the power to other people who seemed more trustworthy (like Robespierre and Lenin) with laws written by the new leaders that seemed fairer. In this sense, going to "better laws and better representatives," and those turning out to be just as self-interested as before, appears to be the never-ending cycle instead. Going somewhere else would not ensure the same result.

Quote:

figmentfragment said:

In a humorous way I feel our opinions could coincide quite nicely.

I agree our day to actions and the "common" morals we share. (despite the minority) We are quite capable of these personal decisions.

However my main argument is from a cynical point of view, that until we can unite and articulate viable alternatives, and until the population shrugs off its largely passive and apathetic nature. I can see no challenge to the established system, and therefore no real changes.




Probably our opinions do coincide pretty well. That's the fundamental hope, I'd say, behind any belief in anarchism. It's the only way to bring it about and the only way it could work.

I'm no stranger to cynicism, and the argument makes perfect sense. We can't sit here complaining and expect things to change without any planning of alternatives. But the "largely passive and apathetic nature" is actually intrinsic to a challenge to the established system. When more people (including non-voters) vote for nobody than the eventual winning candidate, we have a stark message that people do not buy into politics. This "apathy" is actually more indication that people are living anarchically already, though they do still buy into the economic system and pay taxes, having no choice.

The last 40 minutes of that link "Zeitgeist Addendum" offer a compelling vision of an anarchic world, but little is offered in the way of how to get there. It seems necessary to convince not just the populace but those who seek and lord power themselves of the benefits of a peaceful anarchy, but here's the cynicism. Most typical activism is largely ineffective. We need demonstrations that don't rely on simple slogans or hateful screaming and violence but unity of all people and beliefs, the calm, rational but hopeful arguments of King and Gandhi etc. to encourage all-inclusive solutions a la "Addendum" without hinging arguments on conspiracy theories or politicizing. The Internet would appear to make organization easier, since it at least spreads information quicker.

I'm trying to write a book (which is not quick and easy, particularly when you're lazy and spend a lot of time craving instant responses on message boards instead), but all who are interested need to spread their ideas and plan together to think of solutions. Hopelessly idealistic, but what else are you going to devote your life to?


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No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.

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OfflineGrapefruit
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Re: We need control [Re: zannennagara]
    #9037932 - 10/06/08 03:43 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Don't know but there will need to be much more intense suffering than WW1 to do it. Maybe we should be hoping that super strain of bird flu to develop. That or Eckharte Toll was just far too optimistic. Perhaps for most, suffering just creates more suffering. Perhaps we will either be forced to commit suicide or to acceptance. So only the ones who accept what has happened survive. However something tells me it wouldn't be long until we were back to our old ways.

As people say though i am in agreement that change will be neccassary for the survival of the species. That doesn't mean it will happen though.

When there is a lot of violence most people cannot emotionally stand it for long. I hear 90% of WW1 soldier did not shoot to kill. Source = some documentary. Most of them did not recover from the shock though i think?


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: We need control [Re: zannennagara]
    #9038014 - 10/06/08 04:42 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zannennagara said:Communes don't get run over by armed thugs, as far as I know, and the few brief large-scale anarchist societies (Spain, not much else) were run over by the already-established armed thugs of the dominant society outside. In a world society, anarchism can only really exist worldwide.

The revolutions we've had involved no plans for anarchism, but transferring the power to other people who seemed more trustworthy (like Robespierre and Lenin) with laws written by the new leaders that seemed fairer. In this sense, going to "better laws and better representatives," and those turning out to be just as self-interested as before, appears to be the never-ending cycle instead. Going somewhere else would not ensure the same result.




Only because communes usually exist within the confines of a protective government (such as America) that prevent armed thugs from stealing all their food.

I'm not saying that all governments invariable devolve to total anarchy; just that in general there's a tendency for the style of people's government to fluctuate between more totalitarian and more anarchistic.

Complete anarchy can only properly exist, like you said, when the entire world is in a state of anarchy, and even then only temporarily--it will only be a few short years before people start banding together in tribes for protection and the whole cycle repeats.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Invisiblezannennagara
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Registered: 09/25/08
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Re: We need control [Re: deCypher]
    #9038559 - 10/06/08 06:38 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:

Only because communes usually exist within the confines of a protective government (such as America) that prevent armed thugs from stealing all their food.




Is it because of the "protective government" or because most people are not interested in armed raids to steal food, separate from the legality of the act? Are there many documented cases wherein people who have sufficient resources steal from others because of lack of enforced laws of protection, or is this done by established ruling gangs who enforce such laws and provide such protection?

Certainly within these communes, gangs of armed thugs usually do not arise and coerce the others into giving up their food, because the people there have agreed to live together peaceably.

Quote:

The Cypher said:

I'm not saying that all governments invariable devolve to total anarchy; just that in general there's a tendency for the style of people's government to fluctuate between more totalitarian and more anarchistic.

Complete anarchy can only properly exist, like you said, when the entire world is in a state of anarchy, and even then only temporarily--it will only be a few short years before people start banding together in tribes for protection and the whole cycle repeats.




The fluctuation may just be an adaptation of the gangs to different eras - peacetime we allow ostensible freedoms, wartime we need strong totalitarians with zero tolerance until some people revolt for tolerance or best the totalitarians in combat, which looks like more freedom for the common man until the hidden totalitarianism of the new era rears its head again.

Again, I don't see enough historical evidence to support the final claim; since we haven't seen a wholly anarchistic world, we can't know that these gangs will rise up and take over in any kind of cycle until we've seen multiple cases.

It's clear that people will seek organization and band together, but this doesn't have to mean representation by violent coercion against the interests of the many - if we could band together (truly as a whole, as opposed to the protection of one group against the others) against that system of control, we could control ourselves without devolving to totalitarianism. It's a big "if" but still deserves consideration, since we don't have any historical precedents of such a union being attempted.


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No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: We need control [Re: zannennagara]
    #9038680 - 10/06/08 07:03 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zannennagara said:
Quote:

The Cypher said:

Only because communes usually exist within the confines of a protective government (such as America) that prevent armed thugs from stealing all their food.




Is it because of the "protective government" or because most people are not interested in armed raids to steal food, separate from the legality of the act? Are there many documented cases wherein people who have sufficient resources steal from others because of lack of enforced laws of protection, or is this done by established ruling gangs who enforce such laws and provide such protection?




You're assuming everyone in the world would have sufficient resources to maintain this.  How would this be accomplished?  Those with resources don't want to give up their food to those who don't have any without some form of compensation or political power over the inferior nation.

Quote:

zannennagara said:
It's clear that people will seek organization and band together, but this doesn't have to mean representation by violent coercion against the interests of the many - if we could band together (truly as a whole, as opposed to the protection of one group against the others) against that system of control, we could control ourselves without devolving to totalitarianism. It's a big "if" but still deserves consideration, since we don't have any historical precedents of such a union being attempted.




This was tried in Russia in 1917, and it failed catastrophically once the innate corruptibility of man showed itself lurking inside idealistic principles.  It wasn't on a global scale, to be sure, but the remarkable idealism upon which the USSR was founded shows much the same motives as your "banding together."

Anytime you've set up an altruistic system where all people work together for the greater good, you're going to get scavengers and selfish people who reap all the benefits and do none of the work.  You need some sort of driving force or impetus to make sure the group stays cohesive, and without threat of another nation invading or threat of one's resources dwindling, what incentive is there for everyone to band together?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Invisiblezannennagara
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Re: We need control [Re: deCypher]
    #9038825 - 10/06/08 07:35 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Trade/work exchange is a form of compensation - and the idea of worldwide anarchism does not include nations or political power to determine superiority and inferiority.

Idealistic motivation is the foundation for every popular revolution. The innate corruptibility could be in the ceding of the same kind of authority centralization to a new group (the Soviets etc.) as opposed to something within man per se, since people do get together for common purposes all the time without intrinsic internecine destruction. "Banding together" = cooperation.

What altruistic systems do we have precedent for, to say we're going to get scavengers and hangers-on? Scavenging and hanging-on is more the stuff of the gangs than the individual sloths. "The greater good" is not necessarily opposed to the individual good, though it's easily twisted this way by totalitarians. The driving force could be that cooperation works better, and quick worldwide communication can ensure clarity for all people involved.


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No debe haber separación, no puede haber definición.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: We need control [Re: zannennagara]
    #9038852 - 10/06/08 07:40 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

This is true... the Internet and instant communication across the globe will definitely change the shape of politics.

I'm still pessimistic about the world working together in unison, though.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleSleepwalker
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Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
Re: We need control [Re: deCypher]
    #9039642 - 10/06/08 10:14 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
This is true... the Internet and instant communication across the globe will definitely change the shape of politics.

I'm still pessimistic about the world working together in unison, though.




Yeah.  How can we work together while we still try to preserve any sense of individual freedoms?  The only way to work in unison is to have a hive mind, like a bunch of obedient zombie ants.

Not that it would have to be a negative thing, though...maybe what we really need is LESS freedom..

Edited by Sleepwalker (10/06/08 10:15 PM)

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InvisibleRahz
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Registered: 11/10/05
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Re: We need control [Re: Sleepwalker]
    #9040132 - 10/07/08 12:05 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

With unlimited energy, people could choose to work, or not. Most manual labour would come to an end, and everyone would be free to contribute in the way they saw fit. Everyone could have whatever they wanted, so if something wasn't available, someone would make it happen. Without the -need- to work, there would be an abundance of teachers, and every other profession that would contribute to humanity.

There would be so little need for labour, that even the contributors could take off as much time as they wanted to. With unlimited energy, we have unlimited water, unlimited ability to drill for resources, and unlimited recycling capabilities.

Once everyone heard that everything was going to be "OK", why would there be any need for armies? There is no lack. Money would be useless. People would finally cooperate.

The only thing that needs to be done is to tap into an unlimited source of energy. As the new infrastructure developed, birth rates would level off. Humans would mature into responsible adults naturally because there would be no outer strife to promote survival mechanism based thought. Domestic violence would beign to drop. People would have little choice but to find answers within. The occurance of abortion would dip to record lows. Things might be a little rough at first, but it could be worked out over a generation or two. There would still need to be civil courts, but the need would be less over time.

Religion would die without it's gremlins, and would be replaced with true inquiry and a common map of the experience. Government would be reduced to a social experiment, filled with employees that actually wanted to do those jobs for the sake of humanity. When you watched the big game, you would be seeing players who actually loved playing, and who had the same salary as you, which is nothing.

With unlimited energy, there's no problem that couldn't be made better than the current situation. The essential problems of greedy rich, and frightened poor, would be gone though. Corruption would be useless since there would be nothing worth being corrupted for. Nothing would stand in the way of humanity reaching it's highest potential, and there would be millions of scientists, working on exploring the universe.

Unlimited energy is the one thing that's missing from humanities desire for civility.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi

Edited by Rahz (10/07/08 12:07 AM)

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