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 aDoS
freedom lover
 
Registered: 06/18/05
Posts: 7,590
Loc: land of the free
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 thinking about thinking 
#9035497 - 10/06/08 01:26 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I heard that in a dream state, you can not think about thinking. Therefore, you know you are in reality if you can think about thinking.
I really don't know if I believe this or not. How would someone explain lucid dreams using this logic? Aren't you thinking about thinking in lucid dreams?
Last night, I had a dream, where before I did something in the dream, I visualized it, that is kind of thinking about thinking isn't it?
What do you guys think about this? Not being able to think about thinking in a dream state?
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"If we could sniff or swallow something that would, for five or six hours each day, abolish our solitude as individuals, atone us with our fellows in a glowing exaltation of affection and make life in all its aspects seem not only worth living, but divinely beautiful and significant, and if this heavenly, world-transfiguring drug were of such a kind that we could wake up next morning with a clear head and an undamaged constitution - then, it seems to me, all our problems (and not merely the one small problem of discovering a novel pleasure) would be wholly solved and earth would become paradise." - Aldous Huxley
 GIVE ME OPIATES OR GIVE ME DEATH
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Rahz
Alive Again
Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,336
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Re: thinking about thinking [Re: aDoS]
#9035563 - 10/06/08 01:58 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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In a normal dream state, there doesn't seem to be any thinking about thinking, which could be a good or bad thing. It might ruin some dreams if you knew you were dreaming them while it happened.
... well, they're not really cheerleaders.
But yea, just like being awake, there seems to be grades of awareness.
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"Human beings are born with different capacities. If they are free, they are not equal. And if they are equal, they are not free."
~Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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 burgatory
Outlander
Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 641
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Re: thinking about thinking [Re: Rahz]
#9035677 - 10/06/08 03:00 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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If you start thinking about thinking while awake you change your consciousness, effectively waking from the dream you'd otherwise be having. You'll find when you stop thinking, "reality" soon turns into a dream.
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Wherever the hero may wander, whatever he may do, he is ever in the presence of his own essence — for he has the perfected eye to see. There is no separateness. Thus, just as the way of social participation may lead in the end to a realization of the All in the individual, so that of exile brings the hero to the Self in all.
joseph campbell
For, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
jesus
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,173
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Re: thinking about thinking [Re: burgatory]
#9035917 - 10/06/08 06:00 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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A dream state? - you mean during a dream.
Since I am usually thinking about thinking, I also think about thinking while dreaming but am still dreaming.
otherwise, being stoned is a dream state, or dreaming is a stoned state, or both of them are like jhanas, it is when layering occurs from slower fading of signals.
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burgatory, the distinction made between being asleep (spiritually), and being awakened (like the buddha) is not so much one of making a dream end, but bringing wisdom into the dream.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
it is when layering occurs from slower fading of signals.
How does simple layering explain the creation of dream actors and entire imaginary landscapes that you can interactively move around in?
What does the lucidity in a lucid dream add to this layering?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
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Re: thinking about thinking [Re: deCypher]
#9040768 - 10/07/08 05:45 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I can ask 'Who am i' in a dream state, which is questioning the subject, which in a way is thinking about thinking as its stopping in the dream & asking 'who is the dreamer?'
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,173
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Re: thinking about thinking [Re: deCypher]
#9040786 - 10/07/08 06:05 AM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
it is when layering occurs from slower fading of signals.
How does simple layering explain the creation of dream actors and entire imaginary landscapes that you can interactively move around in?
What does the lucidity in a lucid dream add to this layering?
mental layering happens because signals fade more slowly, and sensory gestalts persist (trails echoes), but also memory fragments persist longer, and scenes converge that would not normally be considered real.
the characters from within are released into these mixed tableaux.
lucidity in the dream may just be a dream of lucidity, but the physical effects of this type of dream are shared by many people so a cult of sorts forms.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
lucidity in the dream may just be a dream of lucidity, but the physical effects of this type of dream are shared by many people so a cult of sorts forms.
Interesting: so you're implying we're not ever fully lucid within a dream; just that we believe ourselves to be?
Don't the eye-motion studies with lucid dreaming contradict this, though?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,173
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Re: thinking about thinking [Re: deCypher]
#9043047 - 10/07/08 03:37 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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the thing that may really be different is prefrontal activity
this kind of wakefulness relates more to the matter of overviewing of consciousness or
the idea of conscience, i.e. being awakened "morally" (supervisorally).
"morally" is used in a personal-self-referential way, but that may be all that's natural.
anyway, i think you can have this type of lucid experience in a dream (or awake).
otherwise operating a dream body as if awake - even with physical "rushes" - is more of a toy gain, than a meaningful spiritual advancement (such as moral integrity).
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: thinking about thinking [Re: deCypher]
#9043282 - 10/07/08 04:19 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
Quote:
redgreenvines said:
lucidity in the dream may just be a dream of lucidity, but the physical effects of this type of dream are shared by many people so a cult of sorts forms.
Interesting: so you're implying we're not ever fully lucid within a dream; just that we believe ourselves to be?
Don't the eye-motion studies with lucid dreaming contradict this, though?
Eye-motion studies simply show that lucidity can break through one dream into another, not that you can ever wake up. 
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Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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The question is, what enables one to break through from this dream?
 
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: thinking about thinking [Re: deCypher]
#9043377 - 10/07/08 04:37 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
The question is, what enables one to break through from this dream?
I can only imagine.
If only I didn't know that was true...
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Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,173
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breaking through sounds like satori - a zen thing that is kind of like enlightenment.
negotiating your way seems more like the enduring enlightenment.
satori is more of a trip
like any other dream.
when one breaks through, one always breaks through to a place from which one can break through again,
until one acclimates to a more sedate sweeping along of consciousness.
breaking through can become an energetic kind of making one's way,
but it introduces shockwaves that shake it up more than necessary.
this is great for getting attention.
charisma
fama
fortuna
amore
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