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nykon
Mycologicaly Sufficient



Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 147
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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How Many burst grains are too many?
#9028169 - 10/04/08 12:01 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have been following Magash's "rye bitches rye" for 2 grows now, and now all of a sudden on this batch my grain started splitting. Approx. 5% - 10% of all my grains are now split. Will these be ok, or should I start over? If I need to start over, what should I change to get the propper saturation?
-------------------- Hey mister... What did you do to my Rooster??
PE swabs for trade.....
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Buckeye Oysters
From Zero to Hero



Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1,849
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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Re: How Many burst grains are too many? [Re: nykon]
#9028235 - 10/04/08 12:17 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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With rye you should see no grain splitting. Your grain is getting soaked or boiled for too long. The best rye tek imo is to soak grain 24-36 hours with a pinch of hydrated lime (dont worry if it goes a little longer) then bring to a boil on stove and let full boil for 10 minutes, no longer. Immediately strain the grain into spaghetti strainers and toss it around every 5 minutes for a 25-30min period to mix it up (or just mix it up with a spoon). The grain will steam off all the moisture on the outside of the kernels and have a dry look to the outside, then it is ready to be put in jars. You can use a fan to help speed things up.
A few split grains wont hurt. The more splitting the more wet insides get exposed and become homes for contam.
-------------------- Evolution is Lamarckism in disguise. Adaptation never creates a new species or trait, but rather the new species/trait always existed within the parent DNA until circumstances allowed it to be activated. For instance, every wolf has the DNA for poodles, but that DNA would never be revealed without man selectively breeding for it.
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chobumms
Pokemon Master



Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 1,780
Last seen: 3 months, 26 days
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Re: How Many burst grains are too many? [Re: Buckeye Oysters]
#9028283 - 10/04/08 12:26 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Exactly, My success easily doubled or tripled when I stopped boiling for 30 minutes. and simmered for about 20 to 30 or boiled ten as said above
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[/url]
My "Faster Germination For Popcorn Substrate" TEK
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8428361#8428361
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nykon
Mycologicaly Sufficient



Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 147
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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Re: How Many burst grains are too many? [Re: Buckeye Oysters]
#9028285 - 10/04/08 12:27 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think a 45 minute simmer might be where I'm going wrong. Thank you for the info Nykon
-------------------- Hey mister... What did you do to my Rooster??
PE swabs for trade.....
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Buckeye Oysters
From Zero to Hero



Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1,849
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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Re: How Many burst grains are too many? [Re: nykon]
#9029885 - 10/04/08 08:05 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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anything over 10min boiling will start popping kernels
-------------------- Evolution is Lamarckism in disguise. Adaptation never creates a new species or trait, but rather the new species/trait always existed within the parent DNA until circumstances allowed it to be activated. For instance, every wolf has the DNA for poodles, but that DNA would never be revealed without man selectively breeding for it.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: How Many burst grains are too many? [Re: Buckeye Oysters]
#9029941 - 10/04/08 08:21 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Soak first to hydrate the kernels, and then boil for few minutes. There should be ZERO burst kernels if you do it right. Soak for at least a few hours, but 24 is better. Always rinse the grains well prior to soaking with hot tap water, and begin the soak period with hot tap water. Use gypsum, not lime. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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nykon
Mycologicaly Sufficient



Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 147
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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Re: How Many burst grains are too many? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#9030139 - 10/04/08 09:19 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thank you for the great info, I will be starting over... I guess I should ask around before I follow teks blindly. Thank you RR. Starting another 24 hour soak 2nite. nykon
-------------------- Hey mister... What did you do to my Rooster??
PE swabs for trade.....
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Buckeye Oysters
From Zero to Hero



Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1,849
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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Re: How Many burst grains are too many? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#9031544 - 10/05/08 08:36 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Use gypsum, not lime.
Aren't you supposed to use a pinch of both? I know I read using a pinch of lime from your own tek RR, unless you don't recommend it now.
-------------------- Evolution is Lamarckism in disguise. Adaptation never creates a new species or trait, but rather the new species/trait always existed within the parent DNA until circumstances allowed it to be activated. For instance, every wolf has the DNA for poodles, but that DNA would never be revealed without man selectively breeding for it.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: How Many burst grains are too many? [Re: Buckeye Oysters]
#9031823 - 10/05/08 10:54 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
I know I read using a pinch of lime from your own tek RR, unless you don't recommend it now.
Yes you did, but I now disavow that earlier advice.
When I first started using weak liquid coffee to soak the grains, I would use a bit of lime to balance pH. However, we now know that mushroom mycelium actually prefers an acid pH, and since we colonize our grain jars under sterile conditions with filtered gas exchange, it's OK to allow the coffee to pull the pH lower, thus speeding up colonization. Gypsum adds beneficial minerals and also helps prevent clumping, but skip the lime. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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Buckeye Oysters
From Zero to Hero



Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1,849
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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Re: How Many burst grains are too many? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#9035486 - 10/06/08 01:20 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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will do RR, thanks for the info!
-------------------- Evolution is Lamarckism in disguise. Adaptation never creates a new species or trait, but rather the new species/trait always existed within the parent DNA until circumstances allowed it to be activated. For instance, every wolf has the DNA for poodles, but that DNA would never be revealed without man selectively breeding for it.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 10,315
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Re: How Many burst grains are too many? [Re: nykon]
#9035584 - 10/06/08 02:08 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I soak for at least 36 hours, and skip the simmer.
Back when I simmered, I usually had burst grains to some degree, either before or after the PC. Burst grain from the PC is less of a problem than burst grains coming from the simmer obviously. Either way, 5-10% isn't going to be a problem in my experience.
-------------------- rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace I am I feel I do I love I speak I see I know
"If you knew how quickly people forget the dead... you would stop living to impress people." — Christopher Walken
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omu_negru
rookie




Registered: 02/24/08
Posts: 159
Last seen: 6 months, 27 days
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Re: How Many burst grains are too many? [Re: Buckeye Oysters]
#9035696 - 10/06/08 03:15 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I stoped simmering my grains after i got a few batches of clumped grains. Now i just soak for 24 hours and load the seeds in the jars while still wet. They get fat and nice like that and im not geting any burst grains.
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,734
Loc: USA
Last seen: 18 hours, 12 minutes
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Re: How Many burst grains are too many? [Re: omu_negru]
#9036392 - 10/06/08 09:41 AM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
omu_negru said: I stopped simmering my grains after i got a few batches of clumped grains. Now i just soak for 24 hours and load the seeds in the jars while still wet. They get fat and nice like that and I'm not getting any burst grains.
The 24 hour soak gets enough water into the grain? Or do you add a bit more water to the container prior to PC-ing?
Although I simmer in a way to minimize popped kernels, I am a bit of a skeptic (a chronic illness with me). Here is today's experiment: In about 1 hour I will inoculate rice (w/LC) that has all of the grains burst. Any predictions? Will contamination break out like the final act of a 3 ringed circus? OR Are people's primary concerns about grain bursting more to do with clumping and not really about contamination arising from the interior of the burst grains?
Hmmm . . .
Monday Monday . . .
"During the century after Newton, it was still possible for a man of unusual attainments to master all fields of scientific knowledge. But by 1800, this had become entirely impracticable." Isaac Asimov
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Buckeye Oysters
From Zero to Hero



Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 1,849
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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Re: How Many burst grains are too many? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#9045049 - 10/07/08 09:20 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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The purpose of boiling the grain is to get it hot so that you can steam off the outside moisture until the grain has a dry look. Soaking alone will leave the outside of the grain wet no matter how much you drain it.
-------------------- Evolution is Lamarckism in disguise. Adaptation never creates a new species or trait, but rather the new species/trait always existed within the parent DNA until circumstances allowed it to be activated. For instance, every wolf has the DNA for poodles, but that DNA would never be revealed without man selectively breeding for it.
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,734
Loc: USA
Last seen: 18 hours, 12 minutes
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Re: How Many burst grains are too many? [Re: nykon]
#9092736 - 10/17/08 04:49 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
nykon said: I have been following Magash's "rye bitches rye" for 2 grows now, and now all of a sudden on this batch my grain started splitting. Approx. 5% - 10% of all my grains are now split. Will these be ok, or should I start over? If I need to start over, what should I change to get the propper saturation?
I gently simmer for 20 minutes, and always try to avoid bursting, but being the chronic skeptic that I am, I was skeptical about bursting grains actually leading to in-vitro contamination.
So, here is my grain bursting experiment: 2 weeks ago I inoculated 3 tubs of 100% burst grains with LC. Today all cultures are clean and are solid white with mycelium.
So, two more questions about the subject: Is the whole grain bursting issue about getting the proper texture? (burst grains are more sticky and it is tough to shake the grains well) or... Are the concerns about burst grains about contamination after the spawn is laid out and cased?
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nykon
Mycologicaly Sufficient



Registered: 08/23/08
Posts: 147
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
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Re: How Many burst grains are too many? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#9093837 - 10/17/08 09:06 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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You must have near perfect sterilization techniques. I since then have kept the ones with burst grains, and made a new batch. I had 2 of the burst grains one contaminate during colonization, Kudos to you!
-------------------- Hey mister... What did you do to my Rooster??
PE swabs for trade.....
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RJ Tubs 202



Registered: 09/20/08
Posts: 6,734
Loc: USA
Last seen: 18 hours, 12 minutes
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Re: How Many burst grains are too many? [Re: nykon]
#9100244 - 10/19/08 02:29 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
nykon said: You must have near perfect sterilization techniques.
My experiment was to see if popped grain would lead to contamination. (contamination coming from the interior of the burst grain) Since I did not get any contamination from the containers with 100% burst grains, I was questioning the premise (if I understand it correctly), and now believe (after this experiment) that burst grains do not contribute to contamination.
Unless there is an issue after spawning and casing. I've never seen anyone comment if this concept is about in-vitro contamination or contamination during fruiting...
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wasting_space
....JerkO'lantern....

Registered: 11/21/07
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Loc: halloweentown
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Re: How Many burst grains are too many? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#9100399 - 10/19/08 03:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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20% of my grains usually burst during the simmer and I have seen no correlation between burst grains, contamination, slow growth or any of that jazz!
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DaturaYUM
Stranger
Registered: 10/19/08
Posts: 2
Last seen: 16 years, 3 months
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Re: How Many burst grains are too many? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
#9100401 - 10/19/08 03:14 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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As long as the burst rate is under 10% I have never had a problem colonizing grain jars.
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Grogan
Shroomieologist



Registered: 05/20/03
Posts: 1,146
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Re: How Many burst grains are too many? [Re: DaturaYUM]
#9100658 - 10/19/08 04:18 PM (16 years, 3 months ago) |
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I would skip the simmer altogether no need.. just soak 12-24 hours rinse well, drain well, then allow to dry on the outside completely (the outside of the grain) load up pc for 60+ minutes 90 is better.
-------------------- "Maybe a cow occasionally ate a shroom, but it certainly wouldn't be such a potent shroom that the cow would be trippin balls. " LOL
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