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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Universe Cycling
#9023813 - 10/03/08 02:01 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Let's assume the universe cycles: it goes from Big Bang to Big Crunch and repeats endlessy.
People who believe this to be so, please explain how it would be possible to arrive at this point in time.
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Epigallo
Stranger
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I'd say its possible. We arrive at this point in time exactly the same way we arrived here if there was only one big bang.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Universe Cycling [Re: Epigallo]
#9024132 - 10/03/08 03:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Explain.
How does an infinite amount of time pass?
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Epigallo
Stranger
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I see your point. Logically, there could have been 5 billion universes that expanded and collapsed before ours, but not 10 billion, 100 trillion, 1,000 gazillion ..... (repeat), before ours.
How does an infinite amount of something exist? It doesn't.
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HeavyToilet
The Heaviest OfThem All
Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 9,458
Loc: British Columbia
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Re: Universe Cycling [Re: Epigallo]
#9024200 - 10/03/08 03:15 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Let's assume the universe cycles: it goes from Big Bang to Big Crunch and repeats endlessly.
That's a pretty big assumption.
Since the most recent experimental results show that the expansion is actually speeding up, and not slowing down, it almost disproves the idea of the Big Crunch happening.
Or are you just saying hypothetically?
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Epigallo
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Let's assume it wasn't hypothetical, and look at the question from that standpoint.
Wait, that's a pretty big assumption.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Re: Universe Cycling [Re: Epigallo]
#9024259 - 10/03/08 03:27 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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OK then. Let us suppose that this hypothetical, imaginary universe exists and do it without making assumptions.
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest
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If time started at a certain point it could still be infinite from then as in never stopping.
In a way you could argue that the universe is infinite because how could it just stop? surely that would be illogical. There has to be something the other side of a wall. Is the idea of nothing not illogical? Even empty space has to have a defined location in space. It has to inhabit.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
Edited by Grapefruit (10/03/08 04:45 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Universe Cycling [Re: Grapefruit]
#9024604 - 10/03/08 04:45 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
If time started at a certain point it could still be infinite from then as in never stopping.
OK then, with an infinite 'nothing' before the start, how did it get to the start?
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Grapefruit
Freak in the forest
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That does not mean to to say it is not never ending. The universe and time are not the same.
-------------------- Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. "Chat your fraff Chat your fraff Just chat your fraff Chat your fraff"
Edited by Grapefruit (10/03/08 04:50 PM)
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AnonymousRabbit
Comrade
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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/18/22 03:13 PM)
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc:
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
If time started at a certain point it could still be infinite from then as in never stopping.
OK then, with an infinite 'nothing' before the start, how did it get to the start?
There cannot be an infinite amount of time before time.
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Sleepwalker
Overshoes
Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
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Re: Universe Cycling [Re: blewmeanie]
#9026298 - 10/03/08 10:40 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
blewmeanie said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
If time started at a certain point it could still be infinite from then as in never stopping.
OK then, with an infinite 'nothing' before the start, how did it get to the start?
There cannot be an infinite amount of time before time.
I agree. Time is "something", not nothing.
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mofo
Hobby Jingoist
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Regardless of whether or not the universe "cycles," if you adhere to the theory of relativity, the experience of time in any one of those cycles will be infinite. Both the departure from and the approach toward the singularity would entail travelling through gravitational fields so intense that time would be infinitely dilated on either end. Thus, each cycle of the universe would be in essence, its own universe.
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dirtydirt
Strangerest
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I think that the theories that have come to be accepted in cosmological physics are hardly worth accepting. They are too simple.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Universe Cycling [Re: dirtydirt]
#9026875 - 10/04/08 01:28 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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General relativity and quantum physics are simple? Your theories must be crazy complex!
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dirtydirt
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Re: Universe Cycling [Re: DieCommie]
#9029840 - 10/04/08 07:49 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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No those are general theories of physics. Im referring specifically to cosmology: the big bang/oscillating universe. Maybe not that it's simple but that science is too quick to accept that the conclusions in this theory are prudent.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Universe Cycling [Re: dirtydirt]
#9029895 - 10/04/08 08:08 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thats what cosmology is... its general relativity and quantum physics applied to celestial bodies.
How long do you think they should wait to accept theories that jive with observations?
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blewmeanie
Registered: 10/01/06
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Re: Universe Cycling [Re: DieCommie]
#9029905 - 10/04/08 08:11 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quick, let me find something on wikipedia to prove you wrong.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Re: Universe Cycling [Re: DieCommie]
#9029907 - 10/04/08 08:11 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
How long do you think they should wait to accept theories that jive with observations?
At least one full universal cycle.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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I think some philosophy minded people dont quite get the awesomely powerful predictive ability these theories have. And, after all, predictive ability is the best measure of a theory... in science at least. Are there any other good measures of a theory? Maybe, but I haven't encountered them yet (I keep my eyes open though).
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Let's assume the universe cycles: it goes from Big Bang to Big Crunch and repeats endlessy.
People who believe this to be so, please explain how it would be possible to arrive at this point in time.
People who believe that an infinite amount of time did not pass before now, please explain how the whole thing got started.
-------------------- We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: Universe Cycling [Re: deCypher]
#9030330 - 10/04/08 10:21 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Hiccup.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Explain.
How does an infinite amount of time pass?
In an Oscillating Universe cosmology, such as Hindu thought has often held, Vishnu awakens from dreaming the universe (mythically) and it is retracted back into the Eternal Mind. Time is finite. It emerges simultaneously with space because there cannot be form without extension. Zero dimension (Singularity) emits energy, hence one-dimensional rays or lines. Omnidirectional rays emitted from a point describes an expanding sphere. It expands, creating a sphere of space-time. The boundary of space-time is Unmanifest (uncreated and not yet existent), whch is why mytho-religious cosmology and metaphysics speaks of the Unmanifest Godhead of Infinite potentiality and creation of finite actuality. Space-time cannot be separated, it is an absurdity, and since it has a literal point of origination, it cannot be of infinite duration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalpa_(time_unit)
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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dirtydirt
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Quote:
(Isn't) that what cosmology is... general relativity and quantum physics applied to celestial bodies?
Right but as I said the applications are too simple. There are way too many unanswered questions and strange, supposedly unrelated phenomena that don't fit in the cosmic inflation view of the universe to begin considering it as truth. It is a hasty generalization, especially considering that gravity is hardly understood as a fundamental force and yet plays a central role in this theo
Quote:
How long do you think they should wait to accept theories that jive with observations?
Which observations? Be specific please!
Quote:
In an Oscillating Universe cosmology, such as Hindu thought has often held, Vishnu awakens from dreaming the universe (mythically) and it is retracted back into the Eternal Mind. Time is finite. It emerges simultaneously with space because there cannot be form without extension...
Sounds like infinite divisions of the indivisible infinity. I think your space manifold has to be three dimensional for omnidirectional rays in that manifold to create a sphere. I tend to think it all starts with motion
Edited by dirtydirt (10/05/08 04:30 AM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Universe Cycling [Re: dirtydirt]
#9031746 - 10/05/08 10:29 AM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sounds like infinite divisions of the indivisible infinity. I think your space manifold has to be three dimensional for omnidirectional rays in that manifold to create a sphere. I tend to think it all starts with motion
Right. But as soon as two rays are emitted, a two-dimensional plane is evolved, and so two and three spatial dimensions form simultaneously along with their extension from the point of Singularity, and extension which is linear necessarily denotes succession, duration, hence time.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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AnonymousRabbit
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Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/18/22 03:26 PM)
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Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,230
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I don't believe in a big crunch, but I do believe in an eternally (re)cycling universe.
Everything that can exists blinks in and out of existence in every possible way.
Everything possible has been an infinite number of times and will be an infinite number of times.
Perhaps its just time coiling itself through a completely static universe where all is manifest.
The big bang universe has a FINITE number of ways it can manifest itself. The universe throws out big bangs forever, containing every possible guise over and over again.
So, no infinite amount of time has to pass for X to happen. X (and in fact the whole alphabet) occurs with finite intervals.
From the Whole, nothing can be lost nor can anything be gained. It just oscillates.
The big bang material universe emerged from the quantum vacuum and shall dissolve in it. But there's no end to the "static" of stuff popping in and out of existence, its just that this particular "pop" we call the Universe doesnt last a nanosecond, but a googol (10100) years
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
Edited by Asante (10/05/08 12:06 PM)
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dirtydirt
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Re: Universe Cycling [Re: Asante]
#9033602 - 10/05/08 05:37 PM (15 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Right. But as soon as two rays are emitted, a two-dimensional plane is evolved, and so two and three spatial dimensions form simultaneously along with their extension from the point of Singularity, and extension which is linear necessarily denotes succession, duration, hence time.
You're assuming that the one dimensional rays project onto a categorized manifold of at least three dimensions. The actual properties of space are completely uncertain. I agree with what you're saying but its nearly impossible to describe the evolution without mathematically categorizing space and that's where the problem is: there isn't a mathematical space on which every observable phenomena fits (yet). String theory has 10+ dimensions because it's an attempt to unify our understanding of quantum and relativistic space.
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