Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Universe Cycling
    #9023813 - 10/03/08 02:01 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Let's assume the universe cycles: it goes from Big Bang to Big Crunch and repeats endlessy.

People who believe this to be so, please explain how it would be possible to arrive at this point in time.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEpigallo
Stranger

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 7 years, 22 days
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9024114 - 10/03/08 03:01 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I'd say its possible. We arrive at this point in time exactly the same way we arrived here if there was only one big bang.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: Epigallo]
    #9024132 - 10/03/08 03:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Explain.

How does an infinite amount of time pass?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEpigallo
Stranger

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 7 years, 22 days
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9024170 - 10/03/08 03:10 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I see your point. Logically, there could have been 5 billion universes that expanded and collapsed before ours, but not 10 billion, 100 trillion, 1,000 gazillion ..... (repeat), before ours.

How does an infinite amount of something exist? It doesn't.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleHeavyToilet
The Heaviest OfThem All
Male

Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 9,458
Loc: British Columbia
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: Epigallo]
    #9024200 - 10/03/08 03:15 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Let's assume the universe cycles: it goes from Big Bang to Big Crunch and repeats endlessly.




That's a pretty big assumption.

Since the most recent experimental results show that the expansion is actually speeding up, and not slowing down, it almost disproves the idea of the Big Crunch happening.

Or are you just saying hypothetically?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEpigallo
Stranger

Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 8,155
Last seen: 7 years, 22 days
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #9024216 - 10/03/08 03:18 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Let's assume it wasn't hypothetical, and look at the question from that standpoint.

Wait, that's a pretty big assumption. :smirk:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: Epigallo]
    #9024259 - 10/03/08 03:27 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

OK then. Let us suppose that this hypothetical, imaginary universe exists and do it without making assumptions.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9024592 - 10/03/08 04:41 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

If time started at a certain point it could still be infinite from then as in never stopping.

In a way you could argue that the universe is infinite because how could it just stop? surely that would be illogical. There has to be something the other side of a wall. Is the idea of nothing not illogical? Even empty space has to have a defined location in space. It has to inhabit.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Edited by Grapefruit (10/03/08 04:45 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: Grapefruit]
    #9024604 - 10/03/08 04:45 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

If time started at a certain point it could still be infinite from then as in never stopping.





OK then, with an infinite 'nothing' before the start, how did it get to the start?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineGrapefruit
Freak in the forest
 User Gallery


Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9024614 - 10/03/08 04:47 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

That does not mean to to say it is not never ending. The universe and time are not the same.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Edited by Grapefruit (10/03/08 04:50 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAnonymousRabbit
Comrade
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 8,993
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
. [Re: Grapefruit]
    #9024691 - 10/03/08 05:01 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

.


--------------------
.

Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/18/22 03:13 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleblewmeanie
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc: Flag
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9026217 - 10/03/08 10:12 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

If time started at a certain point it could still be infinite from then as in never stopping.





OK then, with an infinite 'nothing' before the start, how did it get to the start?




There cannot be an infinite amount of time before time.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSleepwalker
Overshoes

Registered: 05/07/08
Posts: 5,503
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: blewmeanie]
    #9026298 - 10/03/08 10:40 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

blewmeanie said:
Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

If time started at a certain point it could still be infinite from then as in never stopping.





OK then, with an infinite 'nothing' before the start, how did it get to the start?




There cannot be an infinite amount of time before time.




I agree.  Time is "something", not nothing.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemofo
Hobby Jingoist


Registered: 04/05/08
Posts: 2,232
Loc: Donkey Kong Kill Screen
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9026708 - 10/04/08 12:29 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Regardless of whether or not the universe "cycles," if you adhere to the theory of relativity, the experience of time in any one of those cycles will be infinite.  Both the departure from and the approach toward the singularity would entail travelling through gravitational fields so intense that time would be infinitely dilated on either end.  Thus, each cycle of the universe would be in essence, its own universe.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedirtydirt
Strangerest
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/05/08
Posts: 134
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9026792 - 10/04/08 12:54 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I think that the theories that have come to be accepted in cosmological physics are hardly worth accepting. They are too simple.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: dirtydirt]
    #9026875 - 10/04/08 01:28 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

General relativity and quantum physics are simple?  Your theories must be crazy complex! :crazy2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedirtydirt
Strangerest
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/05/08
Posts: 134
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: DieCommie]
    #9029840 - 10/04/08 07:49 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

No those are general theories of physics. Im referring specifically to cosmology: the big bang/oscillating universe. Maybe not that it's simple but that science is too quick to accept that the conclusions in this theory are prudent.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: dirtydirt]
    #9029895 - 10/04/08 08:08 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Thats what cosmology is... its general relativity and quantum physics applied to celestial bodies.

How long do you think they should wait to accept theories that jive with observations?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleblewmeanie
I'm a teapot User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,984
Loc: Flag
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: DieCommie]
    #9029905 - 10/04/08 08:11 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quick, let me find something on wikipedia to prove you wrong. :shiftyeyes:


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: DieCommie]
    #9029907 - 10/04/08 08:11 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

How long do you think they should wait to accept theories that jive with observations?




At least one full universal cycle.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9029936 - 10/04/08 08:20 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I think some philosophy minded people dont quite get the awesomely powerful predictive ability these theories have.  And, after all, predictive ability is the best measure of a theory... in science at least.  Are there any other good measures of a theory?  Maybe, but I haven't encountered them yet (I keep my eyes open though).

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9030259 - 10/04/08 09:54 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Let's assume the universe cycles: it goes from Big Bang to Big Crunch and repeats endlessy.

People who believe this to be so, please explain how it would be possible to arrive at this point in time.




People who believe that an infinite amount of time did not pass before now, please explain how the whole thing got started.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male User Gallery


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: deCypher]
    #9030330 - 10/04/08 10:21 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Hiccup.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9030406 - 10/04/08 10:38 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Explain.

How does an infinite amount of time pass?




In an Oscillating Universe cosmology, such as Hindu thought has often held, Vishnu awakens from dreaming the universe (mythically) and it is retracted back into the Eternal Mind. Time is  finite. It emerges simultaneously with space because there cannot be form without extension. Zero dimension (Singularity) emits energy, hence one-dimensional rays or lines. Omnidirectional rays emitted from a point describes an expanding sphere. It expands, creating a sphere of space-time. The boundary of space-time is Unmanifest (uncreated and not yet existent), whch is why mytho-religious cosmology and metaphysics speaks of the Unmanifest Godhead of Infinite potentiality and creation of finite actuality. Space-time cannot be separated, it is an absurdity, and since it has a literal point of origination, it cannot be of infinite duration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalpa_(time_unit)


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedirtydirt
Strangerest
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/05/08
Posts: 134
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #9031208 - 10/05/08 04:28 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

(Isn't) that what cosmology is... general relativity and quantum physics applied to celestial bodies?




Right but as I said the applications are too simple. There are way too many unanswered questions and strange, supposedly unrelated phenomena that don't fit in the cosmic inflation view of the universe to begin considering it as truth. It is a hasty generalization, especially considering that gravity is hardly understood as a fundamental force and yet plays a central role in this theo

Quote:

How long do you think they should wait to accept theories that jive with observations?




Which observations? Be specific please!

Quote:

In an Oscillating Universe cosmology, such as Hindu thought has often held, Vishnu awakens from dreaming the universe (mythically) and it is retracted back into the Eternal Mind. Time is  finite. It emerges simultaneously with space because there cannot be form without extension...




Sounds like infinite divisions of the indivisible infinity. I think your space manifold has to be three dimensional for omnidirectional rays in that manifold to create a sphere. I tend to think it all starts with motion :psychsplit:

Edited by dirtydirt (10/05/08 04:30 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida Flag
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: dirtydirt]
    #9031746 - 10/05/08 10:29 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Sounds like infinite divisions of the indivisible infinity. I think your space manifold has to be three dimensional for omnidirectional rays in that manifold to create a sphere. I tend to think it all starts with motion

Right. But as soon as two rays are emitted, a two-dimensional plane is evolved, and so two and three spatial dimensions form simultaneously along with their extension from the point of Singularity, and extension which is linear necessarily denotes succession, duration, hence time.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineAnonymousRabbit
Comrade
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 8,993
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
. [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #9031906 - 10/05/08 11:14 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

.


--------------------
.

Edited by AnonymousRabbit (05/18/22 03:26 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleAsante
Omnicyclion prophet
Male User Gallery

Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,230
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #9032110 - 10/05/08 12:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I don't believe in a big crunch, but I do believe in an eternally (re)cycling universe.

Everything that can exists blinks in and out of existence in every possible way.

Everything possible has been an infinite number of times and will be an infinite number of times.

Perhaps its just time coiling itself through a completely static universe where all is manifest.

The big bang universe has a FINITE number of ways it can manifest itself. The universe throws out big bangs forever, containing every possible guise over and over again.

So, no infinite amount of time has to pass for X to happen. X (and in fact the whole alphabet) occurs with finite intervals.

From the Whole, nothing can be lost nor can anything be gained. It just oscillates.


The big bang material universe emerged from the quantum vacuum and shall dissolve in it. But there's no end to the "static" of stuff popping in and out of existence, its just that this particular "pop" we call the Universe doesnt last a nanosecond, but a googol (10100) years


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
higher knowledge starts here

Edited by Asante (10/05/08 12:06 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinedirtydirt
Strangerest
 User Gallery

Registered: 06/05/08
Posts: 134
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: Universe Cycling [Re: Asante]
    #9033602 - 10/05/08 05:37 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Right. But as soon as two rays are emitted, a two-dimensional plane is evolved, and so two and three spatial dimensions form simultaneously along with their extension from the point of Singularity, and extension which is linear necessarily denotes succession, duration, hence time.




You're assuming that the one dimensional rays project onto a categorized manifold of at least three dimensions. The actual properties of space are completely uncertain. I agree with what you're saying but its nearly impossible to describe the evolution without mathematically categorizing space and that's where the problem is: there isn't a mathematical space on which every observable phenomena fits (yet). String theory has 10+ dimensions because it's an attempt to unify our understanding of quantum and relativistic space.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2  [ show all ]

Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Implications of the Big Bang Origin and Fate of the Universe
( 1 2 3 all )
Source 6,622 41 09/07/04 11:01 PM
by gettinjiggywithit
* Beleive in the cycle of birth and re-birth?
( 1 2 all )
uriahchase 3,374 31 04/28/09 09:01 PM
by nivek33
* Recycling the Fourth Dimension Ravus 1,251 17 02/04/05 12:17 AM
by Zekebomb
* Negative spatial dimensions psylicon 1,488 14 01/16/03 03:59 AM
by Sclorch
* thoughts on dimensions
( 1 2 all )
automanM 2,921 34 09/27/03 09:03 AM
by Psychogenik
* Dimensions and existence. Heffy 1,357 6 11/11/06 11:24 AM
by Heffy
* 'Fractal' dimension - the meat and potatoes of multidimensionality Jalruza 981 4 09/13/05 02:27 AM
by Fospher
* What are the dimensions of consciousness?
( 1 2 all )
curious mouse 2,773 23 09/06/09 09:41 PM
by curious mouse

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
2,106 topic views. 1 members, 10 guests and 17 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.03 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 14 queries.