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OfflinePhred
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Redstorm]
    #9008019 - 09/30/08 12:31 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

There is no way that hundreds of thousands of people have been killed by bombings aimed at civilians.




You are correct in that, but only because there have not been "hundreds" of thousands of Iraqi noncombatants killed.

However, a review of the information on sites such as Iraq Body Count will show that yes... far, FAR more Iraqi non-combatants have been killed by 'splodeydope explosions than by coalition aerial attacks. As has been pointed out, bombardment as a tactic was ended by the coalition very VERY early on in the conflict. Yeah.... there has been the occasional raid on Fallujah or wherever supported by helicopters firing rockets. So in the interest of accuracy, let's assign every single Iraqi non-combatant death for the entire day that any such raid took place to that Iraqi being hit by a rocket.  That still leaves 'splodeydope deaths far, FAR in front.

As the newspapers reported for almost three years running, 'splodeydope attacks were a multiple-times-daily event for years. Such was not the case with coalition aerial bombing. Such sorties were quite a rare event. I know that (and so do you, if you're honest with yourself) because such raids were always reported on by the MSM, usually accompanied by unverified claims of several civilian deaths as the result of a stray rocket collapsing a day care center or a blowing up a wedding party or whatever. For every story I ever saw about a non-combatant killed by a rocket fired from an Apache, I saw several dozen about 'splodeydopes self-detonating in market places and in front of police stations.

And you did, too.





Phred


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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Phred]
    #9008272 - 09/30/08 01:23 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The 'splodeydopes, however, were a several-times-a-day occurrence for years and years. You couldn't go a single day without seeing headlines like "Seventy-three killed in marketplace blast in Baghdad" or "Thirty-two die in blast outside police station". In how many of those reports were those "blasts" the result of bombs dropped from coalition bombers? That's right - none. Those daily detonations were either vest bombs or car bombs. Set off not by coalition forces, but by 'splodeydopes.




What your telling me, is that your basing this off of the bias of reporting in the mainstream media.  The constant fear-mongering has you convinced that, since you never hear of the civilian deaths in Iraq caused by the military, and they are always reporting more "splodydopes" so they must be killing way more people!

The study from John Hopkins in from the lancet showed these statistics about people who had died from those interviewed (this is from 2004, but was the only data I could find of this at the moment, I need to go study for midterms I'll look more later).

Quote:

When the researchers examined the causes of the 73 violent deaths collected in the study, 84 percent were due to the actions of coalition forces, although the researchers stressed that none was the result of what would have been considered misconduct. Ninety-five percent were due to airstrikes by helicopter gunships, rockets or other types of aerial weaponry.

Forty-six percent of the violent deaths involving coalition forces were men ages 15 to 60, but 46 percent were children younger than 15, and 7 percent were women, the researchers reported.




Now I know that these are very unrepresentative, with such a small sample size and being from 2004, but I just wanted to highlight some points.  The US in Iraq has the policy now that if they are attacked, any civilians in the area are are free game to kill since they are "protecting" the combatants.  So, we rarely hear of all the bystanders killed in attacks on or by the US, only the splodeydopes.

Most Important statistic there though was 46% were Under the age of 15, are these the kind of atrocities you support?

The number of civilians killed by suicide bombers has gone drastically up in Iraq since the invasion, does this not show that the US is just exacerbating the problem?

As for Iraq body count, they get it from media reports and hospitals, what about all the dead bodies which go unreported?

And this is only violent deaths, How about all the people who died from increased malnutrition disease due to the war, how about the increase in infant mortality and cancer rates in Iraq.

From http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/6644/1/324/

Quote:



The U.S., Great Britain and Israel are turning portions of the Middle East into a slice of radioactive hell. They are achieving this by firing what they call “depleted uranium” (DU) ammunition but which is, in fact, radioactive ammunition and it is perhaps the deadliest kind of tactical ammo ever devised in the warped mind of man.

There’s a ton of data about this on the Internet for the skeptics: from sources such as the 1999 report of the International Atomic Energy Commission to oncologist members of England’s Royal Society of Physicians to U.S. Veterans Administration hospital nuclear medicine doctors to officials at the Basra maternity and pediatric hospital to reporter Scott Peterson of the Christian Science Monitor. Peterson used a Geiger counter in August, 2003 to find radiation readings between 1,000 and 1,900 times normal where bunker buster bombs and munitions had exploded near Baghdad. After all, a typical bunker bomb is said to contain more than a ton of depleted uranium.

For a concise overview on radioactive warfare, read “DU And The Liberation of Iraq” by Christian Scherrer, a researcher at the Hiroshima Peace Institute, published on Znet on April 13, 2003. Scherrer states: “Based on the report of the 48th meeting issued by the UN Committee dealing with effects of Atomic radiation on 20th April 1999, noting the rapid increase in mortality caused by DU between 1991 and 1997, the IAEA document predicted the death of half a million Iraqis, noting that…’some 700-800 tons of depleted uranium was used in bombing the military zones south of Iraq. Such a quantity has a radiation effect, sufficient to cause 500,000 cases which may lead to death.”

Scherrer writes, “In 1991 the DU ammunition was mainly used against Iraqi tanks in the desert near Basra, while in the present war DU is being used all over Iraq, even in densely populated areas including the heart of Baghdad, Mosul, Tikrit and other cities.” He adds that, based on IAEA estimates and his previous research, “the death toll may surpass a million deaths over the next few years, with more to follow!”

Scherrer notes, incidentally, the UN’s Human Rights Commission back in 1996 declared DU a weapon of mass destruction(WMD) and that those who use it are guilty of a crime against humanity. Among its users: the first President Bush, President Bill Clinton, who irradiated the Balkans, and the current occupant of the White House.

Now let’s hear it from Iraqi doctors: Oncologist Dr. Jawad Al-Ali of Basra Hospital and Professor Husam al-Jarmokly of Baghdad University “showed a rapidly increasing death toll in Iraq since 1991 due to cancer and leukemia caused by U.S. radiological warfare,” Scherrer writes, based on their presentation of December 1, 2002 at the Peace Memorial Hall in Hiroshima. Al-Ali, who is also a member of England’s Royal Society of Physicians, is quoted in Feb. 5, 2001, “CounterPunch” as stating, “The desert dust carries death. Our studies indicate that more than 40% of the population around Basra will get cancer. We are living through another Hiroshima.” (Basra is a city of 1.7 million. Does that mean 680,000 people will be stricken? That toll alone would be more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki’s casualties.)

The same article also reported since 1990, the incident rate of leukemia in Iraq has grown by more than 600 percent and, similarly, “The leukemia rate in Sarajevo, pummeled by American bombs in 1996, has tripled in the last five years” and “NATO and UN peacekeepers in the region are also coming down with cancer.”

Dr. Zenad Mohammed, employed in the maternity department of the Basra teaching hospital, said in the three-months beginning in August, 1998, 10 babies were born with no heads, eight with abnormally large heads and six with deformed limbs, according to a report on World Socialist Web Site of September 8, 1999. And the British Guardian newspaper reported Basra maternity reported cancer cases shot up from 80 in 1990 to 380 in 1997.

Reporter Phil Gardner quotes Dr. Basma Al Asam, a gynecologist, at Al Manoon hospital, Baghdad, stating: “I’ve been watching this for seven years now and it’s increasing. We’re not just seeing babies born with congenital abnormalities, but very late spontaneous abortions because of congenital defects. In the past we used to see, maybe, one a month. Now it is two or three cases per day.”




This is one doctor from one hospital reporting birth defects at the rate of, 2-3/day =~1000/year for a single hospital.  Birth Defects rose 10-fold after the Gulf War until 2001, and now its getting much much worse.  These are statistics from before the US dropped even more DU in their 2003 invasion.

Please don't try to tell me that Depleted Uranium is safe (But didn't the DOD say so?).  Alpha Particles are not imaginary,  63% of surveyed Gulf War vets with Illness had DU in their system.  DU in your body = alpha decays into your cells = illness and cancer.

Parents In Iraq no longer ask their doctor if It's a boy or girl, no the question now is "Doctor, Is it NORMAL?".


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

Edited by Cannashroom (09/30/08 01:26 PM)

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Cannashroom]
    #9008381 - 09/30/08 01:41 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

The Johns Hopkins report is trash. It has been thoroughly debunked by reputable statisticians and epidemiologists. This was done within weeks of its publication, its flaws were so glaring. This has been thrashed out here before - many times.

The 655,000 figure is sheer fantasy. The 1.2 million figure is a sheer fantasy extrapolation of the sheer fantasy 655,000 figure.

Same with the DU garbage. The only time DU is dangerous to human health is

a) when it is burned and the smoke particles from it are inhaled

b) when it is finely pulverized and the resulting particles are VERY briefly suspended in the air immediately after impacting a surface hard enough for the DU to pulverize (and there are almost no materials that hard. That's why the DU is used as a projectile in the first place - it has the density and hardness to penetrate almost any armor available) and those particles are either inhaled or ingested.

Apart from those two specific circumstances, DU is harmless. You clearly know nothing whatsoever about this subject. Read up on it from some neutral sources. Or ask Seuss - he knows more about uranium and radiation than most of us.



Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Phred]
    #9008423 - 09/30/08 01:48 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

However, a review of the information on sites such as Iraq Body Count will show that yes... far, FAR more Iraqi non-combatants have been killed by 'splodeydope explosions than by coalition aerial attacks.




If that's the case then prove your point you made.

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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Redstorm]
    #9008743 - 09/30/08 03:03 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Why are you ignoring all the reports of cancer in Iraq, the tenfold increase in birth defects after the Gulf War?

If DU is not the culprit, what has caused this massive increase In cancer.  You can tout DU is safe all you like, doesn't change the fact that cancer rates are skyrocketing in Iraq.

Here is a graph of birth defects/1000 births at an Iraqi hospital from DU's wiki:


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Cannashroom]
    #9008924 - 09/30/08 03:40 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Because it's bullshit, that's why.

What's next on your list of Leftard talking points? Chemtrails? The Kennedy Assassination? The Bilderbergers? Third world sweatshops? Frankenfoods?

Hell, let's just toss them all into one giant omnibus post. Why not? We've already had from you Trooferism, CIA conspiracies, Depleted Uranium, the Lancet study, oil-for-food...

All this nonsense has been thoroughly debunked on this forum over and over and over again in the seven-plus years the forum has been in existence. I'm not going to engage all these tired old idiocies again. If you want to swallow the Chomsky/Zinn/Moore/Jones koolaid, be my guest. Enjoy the flavor. 



Phred


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Phred]
    #9009147 - 09/30/08 04:29 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Opposing genetically engineered foods while insisting the more well off people help the poor is a contradiction.  How else can you feed the continually increasing world population?

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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Luddite]
    #9009510 - 09/30/08 05:29 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

GMOs do not have the increased yields claimed by their creators, and in many cases end up need much more pesticides, herbicides, and fertilizer after a few crops, depleting the soil of nutrients and adding toxins.  The introduction of GM crops to Argentina as I have said before created huge problems with poverty, malnutrition, and disease.  The green revolution, although increasing food production, allowed a few large companies to control the food supply, and gene revolution allowed a few companies to control seeds now too.

Remember Golden Rice?  Supposed to save thousands of lives since it had vitamin A, what crock of shit that was.  These companies have destroyed agricultural diversity world wide, while turning peasants into surfs.

And Phred, you didn't debunk my graph, how do you explain the birth defects?  How about the huge raise in cancer rates?  Oh that's right you just ignore it.

As for sweatshops, most pay much better than the average income in the countries they operate.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Cannashroom]
    #9009540 - 09/30/08 05:35 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Let me demonstrate with this article from the Daily Mail about the power Monsanto holds, if you want some references, I believe I have them for the same story In a book I own.

Quote:


THE SINISTER SACKING OF THE WORLD'S LEADING GM EXPERT - AND THE TRAIL THAT LEADS TO TONY BLAIR AND THE WHITE HOUSE

by Andrew Rowell
The Daily Mail, July 7 2003

EARLY one fine summer morning, a taxi pulled up outside a neat suburban terrace house in Aberdeen and took a 68-year-old scientist to a TV studio.

Shortly afterwards Dr Arpad Pustzai found himself propelled from a life of grateful obscurity into the centre of an astonishing political maelstrom that would cost him his job, his reputation and his health.

His crime was to question the safety of genetically modified food. His interview on ITV's World In Action lasted just 150 seconds, but that was long enough to reveal his ground-breaking research suggesting rats fed genetically modified potatoes suffered stunted growth and damage to their immune systems.

It triggered a controversy that put him on a collision course with the Government, the biotech industry and the scientific establishment. The diminutive Hungarian-born scientist, who had escaped the terrors of Stalinism to enjoy a brilliant 35-year academic career, became a reviled figure: ostracised by colleagues, villified, and gagged.

Now, five years on, there are disturbing claims that this distinguished scientist was the victim of behind-the-scenes manoeuvring at the highest political level.

Some of the allegations are truly explosive. They raise profound questions about the extraordinary network of relationships between senior Labour figures and the biotech companies. They also throw new light on why the multi-billion-pound GM industry continues to press ahead in the face of huge public opposition.

The World In Action documentary was broadcast on Monday, August 10, 1998. It was a little over a year since Tony Blair had swept into Downing Street. His government was in thrall to the biotech industry, convinced it could become a driving force of the British economy. What Dr Pusztai was saying threatened to derail those ambitions.

He was based at the Rowett Institute in Aberdeen, which conducts research into animal nutrition. He had published more than 270 scientific studies and three books on lectins, plant proteins that are central to the GM controversy. He was the world's leading expert on the subject.

In the TV interview, he said he believed GM food could be made safe, but added: 'If I had the choice I would certainly not eat it.

He demanded tighter rules over GM foods, and warned: 'I find it's very unfair to use our fellow citizens as guinea pigs. We have to find guinea pigs in the laboratory.'

On the evening the programme went out, the Rowett Institute's director Professor Philip James congratulated Dr Pusztai on his appearance, commenting how well he had handled the questions.

The following morning a press release from the Institute gave him further support, stressing that a 'range of carefully controlled studies underlie the basis of Dr Pusztai's concerns'.

Yet within 48 hours, everything had changed. Dr Pusztai had been suspended by the Institute and ordered to hand over all his data.

His research team was dispersed and he was threatened with legal action if he spoke to anyone. His phone calls and e-mails were diverted; his personal assistant was banned from speaking to him. He read in a press release issued by the Institute that his contract would not be renewed.

What triggered such an extraordinary about-face? How did a respected scientist become a pariah overnight?

The results he claimed to have found were certainly worrying. Dr Pusztai maintained that when rats were fed a certain kind of GM potato - adapted to produce natural insecticide - their livers, hearts and other organs got smaller.

He also found that the size of their brains was affected, but did not dare publicise this fact because he was thought to be alarmist.

Clearly, such findings were deeply threatening for the GM industry. In Orwellian fashion, the Rowett Institute gave a number of conflicting reasons for suddenly disowning them.

First, it claimed Dr Pusztai had simply got confused, muddling up the results for two different batches of potatoes. According to this explanation, the worrying results came from a 'control' sample of potatoes containing a substance known to be poisonous.

This was an utterly astonishing claim - a basic error worthy of a bumbling schoolboy. Newspapers rightly described it as one of the most embarrassing blunders ever admitted by a major scientific institution.

The trouble was, it wasn't true. Whatever the merits of his results, Dr Pusztai hadn't mixed them up, as a subsequent audit of his work confirmed. One of his colleagues, leading pathologist Stanley Ewen said: 'Arpad has always had a clear vision. He is certainly never muddled. He was on top of the whole business.'

When it became clear the claim was baseless, the Institute shifted its ground. First, it said that Dr Pusztai had not carried out the long-term tests needed to prove his findings. Then it said he had carried out the tests but the results weren't ready.

Again, this simply wasn't so.

Later, when his reputation was in tatters and his research thoroughly discredited, the Institute accepted that Dr Pusztai had acted in good faith and described him as 'an intense investigative scientist with an international reputation'.

But by then he was a ruined man who had suffered two heart attacks. His wife, who was sacked with him, was on permanent medication for high blood pressure. Dr Pusztai has come to believe there is only one plausible explanation for his downfall - political pressure from a government in fear of his findings.

Breaking his long silence over the affair, he now claims that he was fired as a direct consequence of Tony Blair's intervention. The day after his World In Action broadcast, he believes that two phone calls were put through to his boss, Philip James, from the Prime Minister's office in Downing Street.

The following day he was fired. He says he was informed of the calls by two different employees at the Rowett. Dr Putsztai and his wife were also told by a senior manager at the institute that Blair's intervention followed a phone call to Downing Street from President Bill Clinton, whose administration was spending billions backing the GM food industry.

To sceptical ears, this sounds scarcely credible. Would the Prime Minister really have had any influence over the position of a respected scientist?

And yet the story is supported by two other eminent researchers. Stanley Ewen, says another senior figure at the institute told him the same story at a dinner on September 24, 1999.

'That conversation is sealed in my mind,' Ewen says. 'My jaw dropped to the floor. I suddenly saw it all - it was the missing link.

'Until then, I couldn't understand how on Monday Arpad had made the most wonderful breakthrough, and on Tuesday it was the most dreadful piece of work and immediately rejected out of hand.'

The second source to confirm the story is Professor Robert Orskov OBE, who worked at the Rowett for 33 years and is one of Britain's leading nutrition experts. He was told that phone calls went from Monsanto, the American firm which produces 90% of the world's GM food, to Clinton and then to Blair.

'Clinton rang Blair and Blair rang James,' says Professor Orskov.

'There is no doubt he was pushed by Blair to do something. It was damaging the relationship between the USA and the UK, because it was going to be a huge blow for Monsanto.'

It is no secret that Blair was first persuaded to support GM by Clinton, and that the President exerted great pressure on his European allies to promote the new technology.

But would Professor James, who had run the Rowett Institute since 1982 and was one of the world's most respected nutritionists, have sacrificed his own man?

At the time, he undoubtedly enjoyed good relations with Tony Blair. While Labour was in opposition, he had been chosen to set up the blueprint for a new Food Standards Agency.

The storm over Dr Pusztai's findings was to cost him a job as the agency's first head. 'You destroyed me,' he later told Dr Pusztai.

Professor James vehemently denies acting on orders from the Premier, saying: 'There's no way I talked to anybody in any circumstances. It's a pack of lies. I have never talked to Blair since the opening of Parliament in 1997.'

Downing Street is equally dismissive of the claims. "This is total rubbish," said a spoesman. Dr Pusztai, however, remains convinced he was punished for following his conscience. 'I obviously spoke out at a very sensitive time. Things were coming to a head with the GM debate and I just lit the fuse.

'I grew up under the Nazis and the Communists and I understand that people are frightened and not willing to jeopardise their future, but they just sold me down the river.'

Among the most instructive aspects of the affair is the way ministers leapt on criticism of his work and sought to undermine his reputation.

In May 1999, by what seems an impossibly neat coincidence, reports attacking him were published on the very same day by the Royal Society - the voice of the scientific establishment - and the science and technology select committee of the House of Commons.

Jack Cunningham, the Government's so-called Cabinet Enforcer, then poured scorn on Dr Pusztai's 'wholly misleading results' and to promise that all GM food on sale in Britain was safe to eat.

It smacked of a co-ordinated counter-attack, and that is precisely what it was. A Government memo reveals that Cunningham and other senior ministers had set up a 'Biotechnology Presentation Group'

Then, as now, relationships between senior Labour figures and the GM food companies bordered on the incestuous. In Labour's first two years in office, GM companies met government officials and ministers 81 times.

The Blair government sees the biotech industry as a new scientific frontier, an industry worth GBP75 billion in Europe alone by 2005. Science minister Lord Sainsbury is a dedicated GM supporter, though he does not officially deal with GM food matters. On being appointed to his post, Lord Sainsbury held large share holdings in two biotech companies, Diatech and Innotech; subsequently they were put in a blind trust. He is also New Labour's largest single donor, having given the party more than GBP8 million since it first came into power.

The irony of Sainsbury being in charge of a pro-GM science policy was highlighted when it emerged he had made a GBP20m paper profit in just four years through his investment in Innotech.

There are links too between Labour and the biotech industry's spin-doctors. Monsanto's PR company in the UK is Good Relations, whose director David Hill ran Labour's media operations for the 1997 and 2001 general elections.

In such an environment, it is scarcely surprising if dissidents like Dr Pusztai find themselves pushed to the fringes and turned into scapegoats.

The oddest twist of all came in May 1999, when Dr Pusztai and his wife went abroad for a few days to escape the controversy surrounding them.

On their return they discovered there had been a break-in at their house in Aberdeen. The only things taken were some bottles of malt whisky, a bit of foreign currency - and the bags containing all their research data.

This was followed by another break-in at the Rowett Institute at the end of the year. Only Dr Pusztai's old lab that was broken into.

He remains baffled about who was behind the raids, and why he was targeted.

But he continues to defend his controversial findings.




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"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Redstorm]
    #9010239 - 09/30/08 07:49 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

However, a review of the information on sites such as Iraq Body Count will show that yes... far, FAR more Iraqi non-combatants have been killed by 'splodeydope explosions than by coalition aerial attacks.




If that's the case then prove your point you made.



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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Phred]
    #9010362 - 09/30/08 08:10 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)



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Offlinezouden
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Cannashroom]
    #9011822 - 10/01/08 02:21 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

>Remember Golden Rice?  Supposed to save thousands of lives since it had vitamin A, what crock of shit that was.  These companies have destroyed agricultural diversity world wide, while turning peasants into surfs.

You mean the strain of rice developed by a professor at a public university in Switzerland? That he donated to the third world without asking for a cent? The rice that was opposed by small-minded activists living comfortably in the west?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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InvisibleMinstrel
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Minstrel]
    #9012102 - 10/01/08 05:39 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I also thought it saved their eye sight (not lives) because it had bata-carotene, the precursor to vitamin A.


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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Minstrel]
    #9012270 - 10/01/08 07:33 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

In a 300g of golden rice (daily serving) there is 8% of your daily vitamin A.  In actuallity the growin of huge plot single crops such as these would lead to more nutritional problems since it leads to less diversity in the diet.  By trying to replace natural Vitamin A with GMO rice, people lose all the other nutrients they would be getting with their vitamin A.  Vitamin A is high in: eggs, liver, green leafy veggies and more, but these also contain other extremely important nutrients, vitamins, photochemicals and more.

Look, don't take me for someone who is naive about GMO's, I am actually a Biochemistry major, I find the world of the cell, especially DNA transcription and translation extraordinarily fascinating.

Well upon further research it seem a biotech company has made huge improvements, increasing the vitamin A 23 times.  This just seems like it may be dangerous now though, now 300g of this rice would be 2x the daily dose, if you were eating lots of rice and had a diet also high in vitamin A, this could lead to Vitamin A toxicity.  In any case, this "Golden Rice 2" is owned by a biotech company so it is not being distributed for free.  The original Golden Rice was created by a swiss lab, but as I said it was not as good.

I don't think that giving these crops to farmer's is bad Idea, but when companies own the intellectual property, and charge royalties to farmers every year, it doesn't help the poverty.

If industrialized nations actually helped these farmers, rather than exploiting them and using their food powers as a weapon, it would be a lot better.

In Final, the problem with this GMO, along with others designed to "solve" food crises or malnutrition is as I said before they greatly reduce he biodiversity.  Having a diverse diet and getting your nutrients from many different things is important.  By planting huge crops of rice like this it takes away from other nutritionally dense food that along with providing vitamin A, has many other important nutrients.

Example of loss of rice biodiversity--there were once over 100 000 varieties of rice in India, now there about 50 available being grown, 99.95% decrease in rice biodiversity.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

Edited by Cannashroom (10/01/08 07:40 AM)

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Cannashroom]
    #9012346 - 10/01/08 08:04 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

>By trying to replace natural Vitamin A with GMO rice, people lose all the other nutrients they would be getting with their vitamin A. Vitamin A is high in: eggs, liver, green leafy veggies and more

None of which are in the diet of the people that golden rice is supposed to help. It's for people who eat rice almost exclusively because that's all that's available.

>now 300g of this rice would be 2x the daily dose, if you were eating lots of rice and had a diet also high in vitamin A

Which they don't. Vitamin A deficiency is a real problem in southeast Asia.

>By planting huge crops of rice like this it takes away from other nutritionally dense food that along with providing vitamin A, has many other important nutrients.


But they don't have other nutritionally dense food. They have rice.

>Example of loss of rice biodiversity--there were once over 100 000 varieties of rice in India, now there about 50 available being grown, 99.95% decrease in rice biodiversity.


That's been happening for hundreds of years. Nothing to do with GMOs or corporations.

>I don't think that giving these crops to farmer's is bad Idea, but when companies own the intellectual property, and charge royalties to farmers every year, it doesn't help the poverty.


Ah! Well you were arguing against it from a technical perspective before, not an economic one. But on this point I agree with you. The problem with GMOs is not the science, it's the business. However I think that Golden Rice is a good example of how it can be done right.

>In any case, this "Golden Rice 2" is owned by a biotech company so it is not being distributed for free.

Not true - it's owned a Swiss biotech company, but is being distributed for free. Companies are allowed to do that, you know. From wikipedia:
Quote:

The group also had to define the cutoff between humanitarian and commercial use. This figure was set at USD$10 000. Therefore, as long as a farmer or subsequent user of golden rice genetics does not make more than $10 000 per year, no royalties need be paid to Syngenta for commercial use. There is no fee for the humanitarian use of golden rice, and farmers are permitted to keep and replant seed. At present, Syngenta has no interest in commercial use of the plant.




There are plenty of examples of GMOs being detrimental. Golden Rice is not one of them.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: zouden]
    #9012369 - 10/01/08 08:14 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

As for the loss of rice biodiversity, no it was not happening before the corporations came in.  Every village in India had its own variety of rice, from 12 000 years of farming.  I did not know about the Golden Rice 2, so it was a bad example for me, I could go into soybeans or whatever, but I have an exam tomorrow. I'm going to make a GMO crop discussions somewhere else, I'd like to hear some more thoughts on the topic.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Cannashroom]
    #9012839 - 10/01/08 11:05 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I did not know about the Golden Rice 2, so it was a bad example for me...




You can say exactly that about every single other point you've raised in this thread so far and you'd be making the most accurate statement you've ever made in this forum.

Good luck with your exam tomorrow. Hopefully it's on something of which you have actual knowledge.





Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
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Registered: 10/08/02
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Redstorm]
    #9012856 - 10/01/08 11:08 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

However, a review of the information on sites such as Iraq Body Count will show that yes... far, FAR more Iraqi non-combatants have been killed by 'splodeydope explosions than by coalition aerial attacks.




If that's the case then prove your point you made.







So, did you find time to do this yet?

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OfflineOrokusaki
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Registered: 08/23/21
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Phred]
    #27906961 - 08/17/22 03:27 PM (1 year, 6 months ago)

You really don't like people thinking outside the box and asking questions.

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