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Invisiblemickey_rourke
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Re: Potency Opinions... "To the Experienced" [Re: wrestler_az]
    #903648 - 09/24/02 01:51 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

TM, why not try this? Next time you trip, give your trip buddies two bags. One with one strain, one with the other. Tell them to pick one and give it back to you in ground form. Don't let them tell you which strain it was until after you made your guess.


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"I tried to put it all behind me, but my redneck past is nipping at my heels.." -- Ben Folds Five

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InvisibleTM
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Re: Potency Opinions... "To the Experienced" [Re: TM]
    #903649 - 09/24/02 01:52 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I can't reply to your last post mickey... Corrupted or something, anyway, okay... If it's different for you, I believe you. You should still check out that particular track... It will knock your sox off. :smile: 


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"Have some congratulatory drugs." - C. Montgomery Burns

I'll probably always do drugs, so that just contributes to the addiction to The Shroomery... It's a vicious circle of bliss. :tongue2:

TM™ :cool:

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OfflineBullfrog1
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Re: Potency Opinions... "To the Experienced" [Re: wrestler_az]
    #904036 - 09/24/02 07:32 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I'll not argue with anyone.
Genetics of the exact shroom that one is digesting is absolutely impossible to determine using the words "strong"-"body vibes" or any other broad terminology.
I've taken the same exact amount of the same strain from the same batch and have had totally different "levels" of trips as well as "type" of trip. I don't think that there is much-if ANY-difference in a healthy cubensis, no matter where it originated from. Too much is determined by what you ate, how much you slept, if your woman/or man had a fight with you last night. You're dealing with serotonin and receptors. Sorry, but I'm not an expert in those areas. Doubt ANYONE here is.



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InvisibleLeft Nut City
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Skikid16 brings up a good point [Re: Bullfrog1]
    #904087 - 09/24/02 08:23 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Which shrooms are more potent: field picked or home cultivated?? Let?s assume they are the exact same strain to begin with...


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Invisibleblink
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Re: Skikid16 brings up a good point [Re: Left Nut City]
    #904524 - 09/24/02 12:36 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

imo, home grown


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Anonymous

Re: Skikid16 brings up a good point [Re: blink]
    #904556 - 09/24/02 12:59 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I cant believe how long this thread is going... I am very impressed.

Lets try to compile a list, or come to an agreement on potencey.

List Cubensis Strains In descending order...

Example.

1. Pesa - Very potent/Highly Active
2. Cambobain - Very Potent
3. Hawaii - Very good cerebral trip. Very Potent....
etc...etc....
And so one, i woudl love to see what everyone opinions are...

Please also include what you are basing this information on... (How they were cased and what substrate was used)


MiNT

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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Skikid16 brings up a good point [Re: Anonymous]
    #913484 - 09/27/02 09:11 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I can prove that cubensis spore-races differ in potency and rather than just saying 'because i know', i can quote references from factual quantative chemical/alkaloid analysis.
Stivje and de Meijer 1993 detected maxima of .15% psilocybin and .50% psilocin in a Mexican spore-race and .15 Psilocybin and .33% psilocin in an Amazonian spore-race.
This is quantative evidence and could possibly be quite discernable from actual bioassays.
Lastly, there is varying in the blue-staining of cubensis spore-races, due to varying levels of oxidisation associated with the decomposition of psilocin and related unstable alkaloids.
This is the only known study that i am aware of - but it seems to back up everything ive experienced.
ive found :
PES Amazonian, PESA, Argentineans, Golden Teacher, Treasure Coasts, PF classic, Tasmanian, Ko Samui to be the more potent cubensis.
Ive found Lipa Yai, mazatapec, Cambodian, Palenque, B+, Malaysian, Pink Buff to be lesser in potency and bluing reaction.


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InvisibleTM
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Re: Skikid16 brings up a good point [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #913677 - 09/27/02 10:21 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

This is the only known study that i am aware of - but it seems to back up everything ive experienced.
ive found :
PES Amazonian, PESA, Argentineans, Golden Teacher, Treasure Coasts, PF classic, Tasmanian, Ko Samui to be the more potent cubensis.
Ive found Lipa Yai, mazatapec, Cambodian, Palenque, B+, Malaysian, Pink Buff to be lesser in potency and bluing reaction.



Interesting that Maz, B+ and Cambodian are listed above as being less potent than Treasure Coast which most find to be the least potent of the above.

I would have to assume that Ecuadors and Creepers would fall into the higher potency category.


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"Have some congratulatory drugs." - C. Montgomery Burns

I'll probably always do drugs, so that just contributes to the addiction to The Shroomery... It's a vicious circle of bliss. :tongue2:

TM™ :cool:

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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Skikid16 brings up a good point [Re: TM]
    #913727 - 09/27/02 10:38 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

they did from my experience - but each spore-match of the same spore-race could have varying potency - i believe there are inherant differences, but they vary considerably on the genetics of each isolate as well


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InvisibleTM
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Re: Skikid16 brings up a good point [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #913738 - 09/27/02 10:42 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

And then we add the substrate nutrients factor into the equasion and we're right back to the beginning again. LOL!


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================================================



"Have some congratulatory drugs." - C. Montgomery Burns

I'll probably always do drugs, so that just contributes to the addiction to The Shroomery... It's a vicious circle of bliss. :tongue2:

TM™ :cool:

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OfflineDERRAYLD
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Re: Skikid16 brings up a good point [Re: TM]
    #914087 - 09/28/02 01:25 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

I don`t see Puerto Ricans on that list?

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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Skikid16 brings up a good point [Re: TM]
    #914371 - 09/28/02 06:08 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

well not if you always cultuvate on the one substrate as i do, and the above study were cultivated on spawned manure


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Offlineaural
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Bluing and potency... [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #914494 - 09/28/02 09:12 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

Lastly, there is varying in the blue-staining of cubensis spore-races, due to varying levels of oxidisation associated with the decomposition of psilocin and related unstable alkaloids.




Ahh,but this is an enzyme reaction.How do you know whether more bluing means more enzyme or more psilocin?

The most intense bluing my imaginary playmate has ever seen was from a Thai strain,yet he didn't feel that these specimens were especially potent,compared to say,a Mexican strain that blued slower and less darkly.

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Offlineaural
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Potency Variation [Re: aural]
    #914498 - 09/28/02 09:18 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

This was originally posted by mj a couple years back...

In reply to:

Here is the original Bigwood and Beug paper on potency variations.
I only omited the three photographs which just show shrooms in a jar and freezed dried shrooms in a plastic baggie, neith of which photograph was good enough to reporduce here.
mjshroomer
Variations of Psilocybin and Psilocin Levels with Repeated Flushes (Harvests) of Mature Sporocarps of Psilocybe Cubensis (Earle) Singer.
By
Jeremy Bigwood and Michael W. Beug
(Evergreen State College, Olympia, Washington.
Summary
Analysis of Psilocybe cubensis (Earle) Singer) grown in controlled culture showed that the level of psilocin was generally zero in the first (or sometimes even the second) fruiting of the mushroom from a given culture and that the level reached a maximum by the fourth flush. The level of psilocybin, which was nearly always at least twice the level of psilocin, showed no upward or downward trend as fruiting progressed, but was variable over a factor of four. Samples obtained from outside sources had psilocybin levels varying by over a factor of ten form one collection to the next.
Introduction
When undertaking quantitative analysis of psilocybin and psilocin levels in the Pacific Northwest species, we generally found large variations from one collection to another even within one species and even when all collections were made from a single location (Beug and Bigwood, 1982). In investigating biosynthetic pathways in the formation of psilocin and psilocybin in Psilocybe cubensis (Earle) Singer, we also observed variations in psilocybin and psilocin levels from one fruiting to the next (Chilton, 1979). WE therefore stet out to grow a selected Amazonian strain of Psilocybe cubensis (Earle) Singer in carefully controlled cultures and study the variations of psilocybin and psilocin levels with time. We also report here on the observed variation of psilocybin and psilocin levels with repeatted flushes from a single culture and the variation observed in other strains.
Experimental
The strain of Psilocybe cubensis cultivated in this study originated from a spore print taken in the Amazon basin near Pucalpa, Peru (Repke et al., 1977). Mycelium obtained from the spore print was kept as a stock culture on various agars. Since only one flush (fruiting) could be obtained from agar plates, we used a rye-grain medium, described initially in San Antonio (1971), refined by Oss and Oeric (1976), and adapted to "miniculture" by us. A wide-mouth half-pint jar (~250 ml) was charge with 10 g of rye grain and 15 ml of water and autoclaved. It was then inoculated under sterile conditions with a mycelium culture on agar. Every four days for a period of 28 days, weight per miniculture. Each flush was harvested as soon as the sporocarps were mature. The mushrooms ere the jars were shaken to distribute the growing mycelium evenly on the grain. In 28 days, the mycelium had covered the grain and the jars were then opened and the grain was cased (covered with a layer about 2 cm deep) with 2 parts peat : 1 part calcium carbonate : 2 parts perlite and/or vermiculite. The mushrooms were "watered" once every two days with 1 ml of sterile water via syringe. The first flyush (fruiting) occurred four to five weeks after inoculation (about two weeks after casing). The minicultures continued to produce mushrooms for at least 20 weeks provided they remained uncontaminated. They yielded an average of 2.7 g dry weight per miniculture. Each flush was harvested as soon as the sprocarps were mature. The mushrooms were immediately freeze-dried, sealed in plastic and stored at-5 degrees Celsius until analysis. Voucher specimens were prepared for deposit in the University of Washington Herbarium (WTU).
The extraction procedure and analysis was described in the previous paper. The reversed-phase high performance liquid chromatograms were quantified wioth a Hewlett-Packard 3380! Reporting integrator-plotter and calibrated against standards from the National Institute on Drug Abuse. We found a linear relationship (plus/minus 10% repeatability) between concentration and peak area from 0.2 to 3 micrograms total psilocybine or psilocin. The detection limit was about 0.01 micrograms psilocybin or psilocin. The HPLC results were qualitatively confirmed by TLC using butanol-acetic acid-water (12:3:5).
Results
We found that the levels of psilocybin varied somewhat unpredictably from one flush to the next, but generally were much the same on the last flush as they were on the first flush (Table 1). Psilocin, on the other hand, generally was absent in the first one or two flushes, each maximixed by the fourth flush, and then appeared to start to decline (Table 1). Unfortunately, we could generally not follow the decline appreciably since five flushes is normally the maximum we can get before the mycelium stops fruiting. (With miniculture 1, we obtained a sixth flush but the fifth flush was totally consumed in another experiment and is not reported here.)
In two other strains grown by other sources, we also observed nearly complete absence of psilocin in the first flush . In These, we analyzed the caps and stems separately and found that the caps generally contained twice as much psilocybin as the stems, but that the small amount of psilocin present was entirely in the stems (Table 2). In contrast, our Amazon strai hasd a trace of psiloin in the cap but not in the stem. The cap and stem contained equal amounts of psilocybin.
Finally, we analyzed five street samples of Psilocybe cubensis for which we did not know the flush number or the precise growing conditions (Table 3). We found highly variable levels of psilocybin and low levels of psilocin.
TABLE 1
The dry weight variation of psilocybin and psilocin levels in Psilocybe cubensis as a function of flush number (quantified by HPLC.
Miniculture No. 1
Psilocybein-Psilocin
(mg/g) (mg/g)
1 8.3---------------0.5
2 6.5---------------1.5
3 13.3---------------1.0
4 4.8---------------2.6
5 --/--------------/--
6 6.8---------------0.5
Miniculture No. 2
Psilocybin-Psilocin
(mg/g) (mg/g)
1 5.1---------------0
2 7.3---------------0
3 4.7---------------1.7
4 3.7---------------2.9
5 5.2---------------2.2
6 --/--------------/--
Miniculture No. 3
Psilocybin-Psilocin
(mg/g) (mg/g)
1 7.6---------------0
2 6.2---------------0
3 5.3---------------0.9
4 3.2---------------1.8
5 6.7---------------1.7
6 --/--------------/--
TABLE 2
Distribution of psilocybin and psilocin in the cap versus the stem in three strains of Psilocybe cubensis cultivated on rye-grain substrate
M. R. strain-
First flush
Psilocybin Psilocin
(mg/g) (mg/g)
Caps 9.7---------0
Stems 4.2---------0.35

Equadorian Strain
First flush
Psilocybin Psilocin
(mg/g) (mg/g)
Caps 7.6--------0
Stems 4.7--------0.4

Amazon Strain
First flush
Psilocybin Psilocin
(mg/g) (mg/g)
Caps 5.7--------0.1
Stems 5.7--------0
TABLE 3
Psilocybin and psilocin levels in dried psilocybe cubensis "street samples" (all samlples were from material cultivated on a rye-grain substrate)
Sample Psilocybin Psilocin
No. (mg/g) (mg/g)
1---------------5.6----------------0
2---------------6.2----------------0
3---------------0.7----------------0.3
4---------------0.7----------------0.3
5---------------1.3----------------0.3
Conclusions

We found that the level of psilocybin and psilocin varies over a factor of four among various cultures of Psilocybe cubensis grown under rigidly controlled conditions, while specimens from outside sources varied tenfold. IT is clear that entheogenic (Ruck et al., 1979) and recreational users of this species have no way of predicting the amount of psilocybin and psilocin that they are ingesting with a given dry weight of the mushrooms. It thus seems likely that variations in the subjective experience will not only come from the effects of set and setting but will also stem in very real measure rom large dosage differences.
References
Beug, Michael W. and Jeremy Bigwood. 1982. Psilocybin and psilocin levels in twenty species from seven genera of wild mushrooms in the Pacific Northwest, U.S.A. Journal of Ethnopharmacology vol. 5:271-285.
Chilton, Scott., Bigwood, Jeremy and R. E. Jensen. 1979. Psilocin, Bufotonine and serotonin : Historical and Biosynthetic Observations. Journal of Psychedelic Drugs Vol. 11:61-69.
Oss, O. T. and Oeric, O. N. 1976. Psilocybin Magic Mushroom Growers Guide. And/Or Press, Berkeley, California.
Repke, Carl A. P., Leslie, Dale T., and Gast?n Guzm?n. 1977. Psilocybe, Conocybe and Panaeolus. Lloydia Vol. 40:566-578.
Ruck,Carl A. P., Bigwood, Jeremy., Staples, Danny., Ott, Jonathan and R. Gordon Wasson. 1979. Entheogens. Journal of Psychedelic Drugs Vol. 11:145-147.
San Antonio, J. P. 1971. A laboratory method to obtain fruit from cased grain spawn of the cultivated mushroom : Agaricus bisporus. Mycologia vol. 63:16-21.
[This message has been edited by mjshroomer (edited 05-24-2000).]




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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Potency Variation [Re: aural]
    #915658 - 09/28/02 07:48 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Ive read that before. At the end of the day psilocybin is converted into psilocin in our bodies anyway.
The bluing reaction is still a mystery to bio-chemists and this is true. It has been infered from statements by Stamets relating to the fact that the bluing reaction occurs at the same time as the degradation of unstable psilocin into related compunds through reactions with present enzymes. (stamets1996) Ofcourse, this is by no means concrete, but in my experience - and that of Stamets, excluding grassland psilocybes, the bluing reaction can be indicative of potency.
Baeocystis is a misnomer - so it is irrelevant.
Secondly, Bigwood and Beug (your reference) 1982 found a maxima of .35% psilocin in some cultivated specimens, although these appear to be flush dependent.
Gartz 1994 and 1989 found naturally low levels of psilocin in cultivated specimens in both studies (maxima of .1% psilocin)
The above reference by Stivje and de Meijer (1993) reitterates Gartz findings in two studies indicating a level of psilocin in most cubensis.
Heim and Hofmann original study (1958) found a maxima of .25% psilocin.
Beug and Bigwood study is however interesting because it suggests that the level of psilocin could be flush dependent, and that this would increase with a relative decrease in psilocybin content.
You could argue that the study also indicates a variation again in alkaloid content of varying cubensis spore-races.


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OfflineHamurabi
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Re: Potency Variation [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #916650 - 09/29/02 10:42 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

i dont know lot about potencies but hawaiian blowed me to the outer space;-p

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Invisiblebigwill
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pf classic [Re: Hamurabi]
    #916791 - 09/29/02 12:34 PM (21 years, 8 months ago)

pf classic were the best for me

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OfflineShadowTH
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Re: Potency Variation [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #918603 - 09/30/02 02:07 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

Could it be that the ratio of psilocybin to psilocin is actually a factor? Despite being converted into psilocin, psilocybin could possibly play a role in the onset of the trip. For example, lets say you grew out 2 strains. One produced a nice amount of psilocybin, while the other had less, but a higher psilocin content. Couldn't it be that the bit of time it takes to break down psilocybin would result in a more mellow, progressive trip where the other strain would work more directly, producing the "speedy" anxious trip people have reported? Just a thought.  :grin:

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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Potency Variation [Re: ShadowTH]
    #918720 - 09/30/02 03:42 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

The old-timers tell me that its the ratio of other lesser, related alkaloids that could possibly play a part in the psychactive and physical reactions to these mushrooms and their variability


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Offlineaural
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Re: Potency Variation [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #919074 - 09/30/02 08:44 AM (21 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

The old-timers tell me that its the ratio of other lesser, related alkaloids that could possibly play a part in the psychactive and physical reactions to these mushrooms and their variability






...and in cubensis,these alkaloids would be ...?

Edited by aural (09/30/02 08:51 AM)

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