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OfflinePhred
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: pinkfloydms]
    #9003436 - 09/29/08 03:52 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Some would say that the US is nothing more than religious fanatics trying to spread their Christianity everywhere not so much unlike the crusades.





And some people say Elvis is still alive. What's your point?





Phred


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Invisiblepinkfloydms
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Phred]
    #9003452 - 09/29/08 03:55 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I'm saying that IMO Christians through out the years have been as bad if not worse than Muslims. Christians have definitely killed more people.


--------------------
Muppet Said:

so yeah:
- 'sex' five times
- once with a man
- once with a cadaver
- and thrice with actual women(all of which were prostitutes)
Best story ever!

www.panicstream.com :thumbup:

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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: pinkfloydms]
    #9004004 - 09/29/08 05:58 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Phred, you should be more afraid of drowning, malnutrition, or being struck by lightning.  Terrorism is a tiny tiny cause of death in this world.  The US Invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan has caused over a million civilian deaths, the use of DU has caused cancer to rise exponentially as well.  With all the money spent on the War on Terror, millions of lives could have been saved worldwide from malnutrition and disease with just basic aid.  Maybe we have stopped the violent death of a few thousand individuals, but at what cost?  The loss of world liberties of free speech, thought, expression and of course the silent death of millions by war, famine and disease.

The War on Terror is a fraud to rid the world of anyone opposed to the Neo-Con agenda, it is a horrendous misuse of funds and deteriorates foreign relations.  Only by getting over our differences, prejudices, and racism can we create peace, a global war is the last thing we need to bring us "security".

But, you don't care, your not starving, fuck the suffering of the third world, let them eat bombs!


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Cannashroom]
    #9004178 - 09/29/08 06:29 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Terrorism is a tiny tiny cause of death in this world.




What's your point?

Quote:

The US Invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan has caused over a million civilian deaths...




1) That number is total bullshit.

2) The deaths are morally the responsibility of Hussein's Ba'athist regime, the Ba'athist dead-ender remnants not mopped up by end of April 2003, Al Qaeda in Iraq, the Taliban, Muqtada Al Sadr's minions and other assorted Islamist 'splodeydopes.

Quote:

....the use of DU has caused cancer to rise exponentially as well.




More bullshit. You are a never-ending source of debunked Leftard canards. Let me guess... you are a university undergrad, aren't you?

Quote:

With all the money spent on the War on Terror, millions of lives could have been saved worldwide from malnutrition and disease with just basic aid.




But they wouldn't have been. What's your point?

Quote:

Maybe we have stopped the violent death of a few thousand individuals, but at what cost?




Do you ever stop to ask yourself "at what cost" when considering the effect of social programs?

Quote:

The loss of world liberties of free speech...





Bullshit.

Quote:

... thought...




Bullshit.

Quote:

.... expression...




Bullshit.

Quote:

... and of course the silent death of millions by war...




Which is entirely the moral fault of the above-listed malefactors.

Quote:

... famine and disease.




Which will always be with us until the countries who need Western values and systems the most finally get around to realizing them.

Quote:

The War on Terror is a fraud to rid the world of anyone opposed to the Neo-Con agenda...




Bullshit. Its purpose is to neutralize mass-murdering 'splodeydopes.

Quote:

...it is a horrendous misuse of funds...




On the contrary. It is one of the VERY few legitimate uses of taxpayer dollars.

Quote:

... and deteriorates foreign relations.




Only with foreigners too stupid or too evil to bother with anyway.

Quote:

Only by getting over our differences, prejudices, and racism can we create peace.




Tell that to the 'splodeydopes. Good luck getting them to sing a few choruses of Kumbaya with you.

Quote:

... a global war is the last thing we need to bring us "security".




Yet it's the thing most likely to bring about that result. Funny how that works, isn't it?




Phred


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Cannashroom]
    #9004209 - 09/29/08 06:34 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Oops. Missed the last line. Easy enough to do, since it's the same tired and oh-so-boring Leftard babble I've been hearing for over half a century now:

Quote:

But, you don't care...




To the contrary. I care far more than you do.

Quote:

... your not starving, fuck the suffering of the third world...




I live in the Third World. See my location. And I've done far more for actual Third World denizens in the last two decades than you'll do in your entire lifetime.

Quote:

... let them eat bombs!




Far more have eaten vest bombs than bombs dropped from US aircraft. This, of course, means nothing to you. You can't even be bothered taking the time to think through why that is the case.

You just keep on keeping on, Sparky! Power to the people, right on!




Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Phred]
    #9004467 - 09/29/08 07:15 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Far more have eaten vest bombs than bombs dropped from US aircraft.




I'm gonna need a source for this.

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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Phred]
    #9004870 - 09/29/08 08:15 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html

This study from 2 years ago put the civilian deaths caused by the US invasion of Iraq at 655 000, it is estimated around 1.2 million now.

Your telling me that more people died in the 943 suicide bombings between the US invasion and 2006 than the 655 000 the Americans killed?  Or did you mean to say that those 943 suicide bombings used more explosives than the americans?  But wait, most of these bombings were as a result of the US and directed towards them.  If they hadn't been there illegally invading their country then there wouldn't be so many pissed of Iraqis wanting to blow them up.

There are an estimated five million Iraqi orphans now as a result of the war, from the last census by the Iraqi government the US installed.  Those five million kids are going to be pissed off at the people who killed their parents.  The war on terror just makes the threat of fundamentalists exponentially bigger because it fuels the rage.

Of course all the oil being stolen from Iraq by the Anglo-American oil giants and the pipelines built to secure oil to the US has nothing to do with the war as well, it was all just happy coincidence that all the oil was there for the taking.

Going back to the original topic, the drug trade, lets look at a war on terror in Afghanistan.  The Taliban had almost completely eradicated opium production, taking revenue from the CIA drug trade.  Once NATO invades, we have the production of Opium shoot back up.

As for the system of the First World being needed for these suffering countries, you are sadly mistaken.  It is through the suffering of the Third World that we the rich can have so many amenities.  Corporations exploit the developing world, hurting huge populations for their own profit.

Lets look at a country close to you.  Argentina, in 1970 had a poverty rate of 5% and the highest standard of living in Latin America.  Argentinian farms were mostly family run with many crops and some animals.  Argentinian beef was second to only Texas.  The United States enters along with the multinational agribusiness corporations and destroy the farming diversity.  Monsanto along with the US allowed multinationals to take over the farming, now Huge plots of roundup ready soybeans replaced the original diversity of farming as they created stronger pests and depleted soil.  By 2000, poverty levels in Argentina, as a result of the US policies and agribusiness takeovers had risen to 51%, more than an order of magnitude larger!  As well malnutrition and disease skyrocketed as the original diverse diet was replaces by monotonous diet of soybeans.

Please, spare me your rhetoric that only with western values will we rid the world of famine and disease.  It is because of the major grain companies like Cargill, Archer Daniel Midlands and the like that we have a food crisis today.  They manipulate and control the food supply as a weapon against countries.

Western Values have caused an epidemic of disease in America, and caused the rapid deterioration of living conditions in other countries, like my example of Argentina.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Phred]
    #9005232 - 09/29/08 09:14 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

Terrorism is a tiny tiny cause of death in this world.




What's your point?





my point is that we should do a utilitarian analysis when deciding whether to expend great deals of resources upon a remedy for a small problem.


If our remedy targets a small problem then perhaps a large amount of resources isn't prudent.


This is the case with the iraq war, in my opinion.  The cost to depose saddam and his party were more than the benifit, and this could easily have been forseen.


Same with, say, spending large amounts of tax dollars to provide a marginal and debatable security improvement at the cost of privacy or autonomy.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Cannashroom]
    #9005465 - 09/29/08 09:49 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Your latest post was so full of bullshit gibberish it would take me a week to debunk it all - again. You really have bought into the Leftard koolaid bigtime, haven't you? No critical examination of facts, just regurgitate whatever anyone wearing a t-shirt with a picture of Bush as a chimpanzee tells you.

The Lancet study was total bullshit, and has been thoroughly debunked over and over again. Even the infamous anti-Bush anti-war organization Iraq Body Count, which continues to publish its own inflated body count of Iraqi casualties, has thoroughly shredded the Lancet's almost unbelievably shoddy work.

Islamic terrorists have killed far, FAR more Iraqis and Afghanis than have coalition troops and NATO troops. Anyone who has read the newspapers for the last seven years but still believes otherwise is beyond help.

If there are Iraqi orphans after the war, remember there were a shit ton of them before the war, too, if we can believe the NGOs such as Amnesty International and their ilk. And again - far, FAR more Iraqis were killed by those opposed to the coalition forces than by those forces. You don't like the idea of orphans? Blame Zarqawi and Al Sadr and their flunkies.

No oil is being "stolen" from Iraq. It is being bought from Iraq at market prices.

Since I as a libertarian do not support the prohibition of drugs, your point about opium poppies vs the Taliban is completely lost on me. I say the more opium poppies the better.

Quote:

It is through the suffering of the Third World that we the rich can have so many amenities.




More Leftie bullshit. The Western world takes nothing from the Third World. They buy what they want at prices the seller sets. The reason there are so many poor countries in Africa is that they have nothing to sell, duh!

Quote:

Lets look at a country close to you.




Argentina isn't close to me. Montreal is two and a half times closer to where I live than Buenos Aires. And if you intend to hold up Argentina as some kind of iconic example of adherence to Western ideals, hold your breath. It's clear you haven't the faintest idea of any Argentinean history.

Quote:

It is because of the major grain companies like Cargill, Archer Daniel Midlands and the like that we have a food crisis today.




There is no "food crisis".

Quote:


Western Values have caused an epidemic of disease in America, and caused the rapid deterioration of living conditions in other countries, like my example of Argentina.




Oh great. Another doctrinaire knee-jerk Chomskyite Quebec undergrad convinced Capitalism is the cause of all the world's troubles, reciting the same tired old laundry list of ills his aging Woodstock-era Marxist professors require him to memorize for a passing grade.  What'll your next post be about? Sweatshops?

You just keep on speaking truth to power, bro. Fight the righteous fight. We're right behind you, mang.



Phred


--------------------

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: johnm214]
    #9005470 - 09/29/08 09:51 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

my point is that we should do a utilitarian analysis when deciding whether to expend great deals of resources upon a remedy for a small problem.




What's the return on investment for hunting down, trying, and jailing rapists? Or pedophiles?




Phred


--------------------

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Phred]
    #9005677 - 09/29/08 10:38 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

my point is that we should do a utilitarian analysis when deciding whether to expend great deals of resources upon a remedy for a small problem.




What's the return on investment for hunting down, trying, and jailing rapists? Or pedophiles?




Phred





Interesting question.


I guess a large part of the justification is the psychological, whether you call it fear or justice, advantage of having wrongdoers punished and neutralized.  The parallels to terrorism prevention and the arresting of terrorists are plain.


My only point is that I wouldn't care to spend millions of dollars to convict a rapaist that wasn't likely to rape again and for a trial where the outcome isn't reasonably certain.


All I'm saying is that a cost benifit analysis is neccesary.  The benifit of hunting down bad people is real, but I think the bigger benifit, and risk, from terrorism is irrational fear negation.  People were afraid to fly after 9/11 for some reason even though their were a slew of things that were far more likely to hurt you or kill you.  Availability heuristic in action.


So while it is good to be able to apease worried citizens, and it is nice to get justice, and it is valuable to prevent psychological ramifcations of what would be an otherwise minor event-  (compare deaths from terrorism in, say, L.A. vs deaths in the course of a robbery, one will have a far more, and inflated imo, impact upon the nation and the area) that doesn't relieve us of a cost-benift consideration.


IMO, door-to-door searches or random traffic stops wouldn't be worthwhile to prevent terrorism or other random crime given the costs to liberty, saying nothing of the law.  Likewise, spending large sums of federal money for grants to municipalities in rural areas to help "homeland security" is also poorly spent money.

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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: johnm214]
    #9006768 - 09/30/08 06:00 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

So as a libertarian, you support the loss of rights associated with the War on Terror?

As for food crisis, there are billions of people in poverty who are in trouble because global food prices are rising, due a lot to speculation of major grain companies.

And yeah, I don't understand Argentinian history, but I do know that a 10x increase in the rates of poverty is astronomical.  Millions of malnourished people living in slums because of how multinational corporations exploited them, turning their country into a GMO testing ground and destroying their farming diversity.  Furthermore, all the pesticides, fertilizers and herbicides used with these GMO plants are depleting the soil of nutrients.  It Argentina were to stay on this path, they wouldn't be able to grow anything in 50 years.

Yeah, Africa wasn't exploited for It's gold or Diamonds, they got it all at a fair price, right?


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Cannashroom]
    #9006812 - 09/30/08 06:24 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

The strong prey upon the weak.  This is human nature, and is seen again and again throughout history.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Offlinezouden
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Phred]
    #9006835 - 09/30/08 06:30 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
More Leftie bullshit. The Western world takes nothing from the Third World. They buy what they want at prices the seller sets. The reason there are so many poor countries in Africa is that they have nothing to sell, duh!



There's still plenty of Negroes, though the bottom seems to have fallen out of that particular market.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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OfflineChemy
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Cannashroom]
    #9006889 - 09/30/08 06:49 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Cannashroom said:
you support the loss of rights associated with the War on Terror?




What rights of US citizens have been lost as a result of the war on terror?

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Redstorm]
    #9007329 - 09/30/08 09:48 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

Far more have eaten vest bombs than bombs dropped from US aircraft.




I'm gonna need a source for this.



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OfflineCannashroom
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Redstorm]
    #9007639 - 09/30/08 11:13 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

You wont find a source because it is a complete lie.  Phred likes to rip on me for not presenting facts, he quotes me and then says its not true.  But hes not posting anything to back himself up, he just refutes what I say.

Good article I saw today, people ignore truth based on their political views.  I'm not pointing fingers at anyone, I'm just saying that people who have very different political views are more prone to subconsciously ignoring the facts of the other side, pretty much how a lot of these conversations go.

From the Iraq Invasion beginning to the end of 2006 there were 943 suicide bombings in Iraq.

2003-25  2004-140  2005-478  2006-300

As we can see by these numbers, suicide bombings drastically increased once the US invaded, as people had more of a reason to be really pissed off.

Now, It is completely absurd to claim that the US dropped less than 943 bombs, or that they dropped less mass of munitions.  It is also absurd to claim that these 943 attacks, many directed against US forces have killed more people than the US invasion.

That 943 is take directly from wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bombings_in_Iraq_since_2003

I am having a heard time finding info on the number of bombs dropped, but nobody in the right mind could possible believe that it was less than 943 between 2003 and 2006, probably closer to 94300 or 943000.


--------------------
"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Redstorm]
    #9007917 - 09/30/08 12:09 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Fuck me, Redstorm, I know you read the newspapers.

The vast majority of coalition bombing took place right at the very beginning of operations and was essentially over by the end of March. Why don't you go to some site which has been tracking casualties since the beginning and see how many dead Iraqis there were by, say, April 3 of 2003.

The 'splodeydopes, however, were a several-times-a-day occurrence for years and years. You couldn't go a single day without seeing headlines like "Seventy-three killed in marketplace blast in Baghdad" or "Thirty-two die in blast outside police station". In how many of those reports were those "blasts" the result of bombs dropped from coalition bombers? That's right - none. Those daily detonations were either vest bombs or car bombs. Set off not by coalition forces, but by 'splodeydopes.





Phred


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Phred]
    #9007926 - 09/30/08 12:11 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

So essentially, you have no proof.

There is no way that hundreds of thousands of people have been killed by bombings aimed at civilians.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Deep Events and the CIA’s Global Drug Connection [Re: Cannashroom]
    #9007955 - 09/30/08 12:19 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

From the Iraq Invasion beginning to the end of 2006 there were 943 suicide bombings in Iraq.




What's your point? That only 934 people were killed by those bombs?

Look, Jethro, here's how it works - what counts isn't the number of explosions, what counts is the number of deaths from those explosions. See my response to Redstorm.

Quote:

As we can see by these numbers, suicide bombings drastically increased once the US invaded, as people had more of a reason to be really pissed off.




If by "people", you mean Al Qaeda fanatics, well, duh! Of course they're pissed off. Problem is, there were very few coalition forces being killed in those explosions. The vast majority of deaths were... wait for it now... Iraqi noncombatants.

Quote:

Now, It is completely absurd to claim that the US dropped less than 943 bombs, or that they dropped less mass of munitions.




Your point being?

Quote:

It is also absurd to claim that these 943 attacks, many directed against US forces have killed more people than the US invasion.




Explain why it is "absurd". Do so in the face of the incontrovertible evidence that hundreds and hundreds of these attacks were not against US forces but against Iraqis lining up to seek a job, or just to buy food. Remember, we are not talking here about roadside IEDs set off as a patrol went by. We are talking about a suicide bomb. An individual with explosives strapped to himself or driving a vehicle loaded with explosives.

I'd be very interested to see your source for how many coalition troops have been killed by suicide bombers. We already know the number is less than 4,000. Far less, in fact.

Quote:

I am having a heard time finding info on the number of bombs dropped, but nobody in the right mind could possible believe that it was less than 943 between 2003 and 2006, probably closer to 94300 or 943000.




Again, what is your point?





Phred


--------------------

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