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 Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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 Re: Guilty Pleasure  [Re: deCypher]
#9003117 - 09/29/08 02:46 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Cypher said:
Quote:
Veritas said:
These tendencies need not be extreme to be evidence of emotional illness. The man who wants to torture his employer because he has not received a raise is emotionally ill. The man who actually tortures his employer is also emotionally ill.
Torturing is a bit of an extreme example, don't you think? I'm sure there are plenty of people who want to punch an irritating boss in the face, which still counts as inflicting suffering even if it isn't as pathological as the torture example you gave.
Yes, this impulse is also pathological. If wanting to punch irritating people was an innate human characteristic, then all humans would have the same characteristic. I chose torture because it is the most-direct way to cause and prolong suffering, but any form of non-defense-related violence against someone else would qualify as pathological.
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And isn't the whole concept of the death penalty supposed to be, at least in part, for the satisfaction of the family members of the victim? It makes no logical sense to kill a murderer, as it certainly won't bring back the person whom they killed, but we do it out of a modernized form of vengeance and belief that causing death to another person will give other people relief. (The matter of preventing the murderer from committing more murders is another topic, but this could be alleviated through simple life imprisonment.)
As I understand it, the death penalty is meant to be used in cases of extreme violence and sociopathology where rehabilitation is unlikely.
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And what if someone murdered your own child, or a family member? It's very natural to feel an impulse towards revenge or wanting to harm the perpetrator (even if we try to quell these instincts for interest of a civilized society.) Or what if your significant other cheats on you? Natural impulses can be just as oriented towards causing suffering as they can towards aiding people.
What you deem "natural," I see as the result of cultural programming. If someone is brought up with a non-violent and non-attached orientation towards life, will they still desire to inflict suffering upon someone who transgresses against them? I doubt it.
I agree that humans, like all other animals, have the propensity for violence. I disagree that the deliberate desire to cause suffering is part of this propensity. IMO, this desire is taught by examples within one's culture.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Guilty Pleasure [Re: Veritas]
#9003122 - 09/29/08 02:48 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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So the natural state of humanity without cultural impetuses towards violence would be a peaceful one?
I thought this way up until I read Lord of the Flies.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Guilty Pleasure [Re: deCypher]
#9003140 - 09/29/08 02:50 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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The boys in that story were exposed to many cultural norms regarding violence prior to their isolation, so it is a poor example of "natural" human tendencies.
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 Boots
Disenchanted
Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
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Re: Guilty Pleasure [Re: deranger]
#9003526 - 09/29/08 04:12 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yea, if only the influence of society on culture was a one-way street, lol. It's not necessarily good or bad (subjectively, I agree with you but I tend to take an objective point of view), guilt is just something that we are taught since infancy.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Guilty Pleasure [Re: Veritas]
#9003531 - 09/29/08 04:13 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
The boys in that story were exposed to many cultural norms regarding violence prior to their isolation, so it is a poor example of "natural" human tendencies.
Fine, but can you point to an example proving that violence is solely a result of culture?
And besides, violence had to have started somewhere. If it's present in culture, then it's present because someone, somewhere, sometime felt naturally violent.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Guilty Pleasure [Re: deCypher]
#9003590 - 09/29/08 04:25 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think that we need to distinguish between a propensity for violence, which all animals appear to have, and a conscious desire to cause suffering to another being. I am not claiming that humans do not have the potential to be violent. I am claiming that humans would not consciously desire to cause suffering unless they learned to do so.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Guilty Pleasure [Re: Veritas]
#9003603 - 09/29/08 04:28 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Counter-example: little children often fry ants with a magnifying glass or pull the wings of flies, without being shown to do this beforehand. This, along with the toddler pulling the cat's tail to hear it meow, are clear examples of wanting to cause suffering in other creatures that have no prior example where the child learned how to do so.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Guilty Pleasure [Re: deCypher]
#9003614 - 09/29/08 04:30 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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That assumes that the children understand that their actions will cause suffering. When I explained to my sons that their actions had consequences, and that other living things can feel pain & fear just like they do, they were shocked & sad. Neither of them continued to pull the cat's tail after they understood the effect of their actions.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Guilty Pleasure [Re: Veritas]
#9003629 - 09/29/08 04:34 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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So Bush has single-handedly destroyed America, not out of malevolence, but ignorance?
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Single-handedly? I think he had some help. 
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Guilty Pleasure [Re: Veritas]
#9003735 - 09/29/08 04:58 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Guilty Pleasure [Re: Veritas]
#9004010 - 09/29/08 05:59 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Yeah like the citizens.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Guilty Pleasure [Re: Veritas]
#9004105 - 09/29/08 06:16 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
That assumes that the children understand that their actions will cause suffering. When I explained to my sons that their actions had consequences, and that other living things can feel pain & fear just like they do, they were shocked & sad. Neither of them continued to pull the cat's tail after they understood the effect of their actions.
Some do, though... generalizing from such a small sample is a bit iffy.
And I'd still maintain scenarios out of Lord of the Flies are due to innate predispositions towards violence without a protective cultural institution that prevents such activity from occurring. If humans were naturally good, as you seem to imply, then why do we need governments and laws in the first place?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Guilty Pleasure [Re: deCypher]
#9004563 - 09/29/08 07:29 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm not talking about being naturally "good," as such moral constructs are invented & not innate. I'm talking about healthy humans being inclined towards empathy rather than sadism. Humans who consciously desire to inflict suffering upon other beings are not healthy examples of humanity.
BTW, though I only mentioned my own kids, I have provided care for at least one hundred other children over the past 30 years. Only a rare few were not dismayed when I explained to them that they were causing suffering to an insect or small animal.
We need governments & laws because a few humans are sick and sadistic, and others are simply desperate and without ethical standards for their behavior. These societal structures do not prevent pathological behavior (obviously), but they provide some measure of deterrence & also punish offenders after the fact. If these humans were the "norm," as would be true if such tendencies were natural for humans, it would be impossible to stop them. They would overwhelm the few "unnatural" humans who do not wish to inflict suffering, and turn this world into Hell.
Shall we take these humans as models of what is "natural" for humankind?
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Guilty Pleasure [Re: Veritas]
#9004644 - 09/29/08 07:42 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'd bet your explanation of the suffering of the insect or small animal to the child was innately biased towards an empathetic viewpoint. One could just as equally explain how one's duty is to cause suffering in other insects and animals, and raise a child towards a sadistic viewpoint. Both seem too focused on being affected by environment than a true Lord of the Flies scenario that would prove one way or the other.
I tend to side with Hobbes--without government and the like, the natural state of affairs of mankind would be a war of every man against every man, and life would be nasty, brutish, and short. Far from a small minority wreaking havoc on the majority, without social constructs or built-in parental morals, I'd argue society would collapse under utter, primal violence.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Guilty Pleasure [Re: deCypher]
#9004712 - 09/29/08 07:51 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Again, the Lord of the Flies scenario was not an example of human interaction sans societal influence. The boys were not born on the island & raised by wild boar. They were pre-adolescent British boys whose plane crashed, so they were most definitely influenced & socialized by popular culture prior to their short stay on the island.
I don't think that either of us can conclusively prove our particular POV on this subject. We live in a society with government & law enforcement in place. We live in a culture which promotes violence. We live in families with people who may or may not promote violence. No one gets through life in this environment without exposure to violent behavior.
Since this is so, I will speak for myself: I don't want to cause any other being to suffer. I would like to see all sentient beings freed from their suffering. I would like to be freed from my own suffering. I'm raising children who feel the way that I do, and who want to contribute to the world in a positive manner. If we're unnatural, then I have no desire to be natural. 
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Re: Guilty Pleasure [Re: Veritas]
#9004744 - 09/29/08 07:55 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm aware that Lord of the Flies as written by Golding wasn't a totally isolated scenario; that's why I said a true Lord of the Flies situation.
And yeah, there's just not much evidence we can use in the real world to argue one way or the other. One has to wonder why we have civilization, though, if the natural state of mankind wasn't constant warfare and sedition--law and order was necessary to prevent life from being cut down in the prime by needless violence.
Show me a man or a woman alone and I'll show you a saint. Give me two and they'll fall in love. Give me three and they'll invent the charming thing we call 'society'. Give me four and they'll build a pyramid. Give me five and they'll make one an outcast. Give me six and they'll reinvent prejudice. Give me seven and in seven years they'll reinvent warfare. Man may have been made in the image of God, but human society was made in the image of His opposite number, and is always trying to get back home.
--Stephen King
I do personally concur with your viewpoint, though I tend to think that a world completely without suffering would tend to get a tad boring. We need variety in our lives, after all. 
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Guilty Pleasure [Re: deCypher]
#9004767 - 09/29/08 08:00 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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Civilization is just a way for large groups of humans to cooperate. In a small group, the percentage of emotionally ill humans will add up to one or two individuals; in a large group, they might number 10 or 100 or 1000. With one or two "bad apples," ostracism was the preferred method of dealing with the problem. Once you need to handle 100 or 1000 "bad apples," you must employ something with more structure and teeth than mere banishment.
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Sophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
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Re: Guilty Pleasure [Re: deranger]
#9004779 - 09/29/08 08:01 PM (15 years, 6 months ago) |
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This is a secret, but guilt makes the pleasure better. 
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Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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No way, man! Guilt is a major buzzkill.
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