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InvisibleIcelander
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The Mystical proof
    #8969129 - 09/22/08 05:36 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I keep getting into debates on this, especially with Markos. I keep asking this question and it never gets answered.

What makes what you say about your mystical truth any different then what the christian sez is true about the bible being the inspired word of god? That Jesus came into their lives at their request and they can feel it in their lives and know they are going to heaven. They pray to him and he actually answers their prayers Or for that matter any of the other dozens of religions that believe they have a handle on what is really going on with Ultimate Reality

Every time I ask this it gets completely ignored.  Why is that.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (09/22/08 05:45 PM)

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OfflineTameMe
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Icelander]
    #8969150 - 09/22/08 05:42 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

maybe because you don't use question marks.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: TameMe]
    #8969156 - 09/22/08 05:43 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: TameMe]
    #8969158 - 09/22/08 05:43 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I usually do. That can't be it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineGinseng1
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Icelander]
    #8969166 - 09/22/08 05:45 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

lol joooookes!!


--------------------
Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Icelander]
    #8969232 - 09/22/08 05:57 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think you are looking specifically for the philosophy about why the question is not answered; so much as you are looking for an attempt at an answer. I will however target the philosophy of why it is not answered directly.

The certaintific circuit is the system used by the experiential mind to condense temporally dynamic entities into temporally concrete entities. IE: it is the mind's method of referencing the surfaces burned on the physical interface in such a way as to maximize existential pleasure and fulfillment, and to minimize existential suffering.

There are only two functions this circuit possesses; catch and release. These functions however may be meticulously modulated, in the most time abstract sense the existential mind can attain.

The process of creating a good reality is the process of carefully modulating the catch/release mechanism such that the existential mind will maximize the ability to intake new experience while not overloading the certaintific system; causing a reactively provoked release cascade. As your reality improves it becomes more stable, and requires more gentle modulation between catch and release. A good reality will begin at the concepts immediately around self and gradually stretch itself outward.

If a good reality is being approached, and another being requests information about central notions; there is a risk that the explanatory process (the catch/release) modulation of the reality will be disrupted. This is partially because reality models are all fallible, and partially because a reality model remains sensitive for a long period of time before it becomes interpersonally stable around the self.

So questioning the basis of reality models, especially newly contrived or still in progress ones, will often be met with evasion or non-compliance.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

Edited by ExplosiveMango (09/22/08 08:41 PM)

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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Icelander]
    #8969302 - 09/22/08 06:10 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I keep getting into debates on this, especially with Markos. I keep asking this question and it never gets answered.

What makes what you say about your mystical truth any different then what the christian sez is true about the bible being the inspired word of god? That Jesus came into their lives at their request and they can feel it in their lives and know they are going to heaven. They pray to him and he actually answers their prayers Or for that matter any of the other dozens of religions that believe they have a handle on what is really going on with Ultimate Reality

Every time I ask this it gets completely ignored.  Why is that.





My answer is, objectively - no difference.  subjectively - every difference.

If you really wanted to get silly about it... depth of insight, knowledge, conviction without feeling threatened, the need or no-need of sharing these truths, outwardly observable changes in the person's life, social conformity, fear-uncertainty-death, etc.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #8969311 - 09/22/08 06:12 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hey thanks.:D


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleChronic7

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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Icelander]
    #8971612 - 09/23/08 05:01 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Because you cant proove what can't be prooven!

Its that simple, it can & never will be prooved.

The whole thing of proof is we search with the mind wanting SOLID evidence, when this is beyond any solid form, the only way to have proof is have it prooved inside you.

As i've said before we only believe something if its our inner direct experience, ifits merely mental then it doesnt sink in & thats the whole point of spirituality, that we stop looking for material satisfaction, that we stop going to the mind for our sense of self, that we start looking beyond what we can smell touch taste hear see & expand our consciousness to allow more awareness to shine through.

Its all about going beyond but within your own self & looking for proof generally is looking for something outside yourself that you can hold and say 'thats it' when that can never be it because you are that, if you start looking for proof with every cell of your body, not just your mind?

If you'd only question yourself instead of others you might see it for yourself, i hope that wasnt too much of a 'personalism', because its true, the only reason people dont 'get this' is because theyre looking for something outside of themselves when the truth its its all inside you.

I no longer see this a mystical truth or some religious ideal, its just true, everything tricks you to get the awareness going outwards when if you just look at yourself you'll see it all

:egyptian:


--------------------

Edited by Chronic7 (09/23/08 05:08 AM)

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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Icelander]
    #8971652 - 09/23/08 05:24 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

More advanced tests have recently provided a lot of solid evidence.

Dean Radin presents some in this lecture.

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InvisibleChronic7

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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Middleman]
    #8971657 - 09/23/08 05:29 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I just posted proof myself in another thread.

Still, i dont consider anything proof except your own direct experiential seeing of it for yourself


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InvisibleMiddlemanM

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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Chronic7]
    #8971664 - 09/23/08 05:36 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

There is no proof. Where did you post your evidence?

Radin says that experience is 99.9% delusion, he's interested in the .01%.

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InvisibleChronic7

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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Middleman]
    #8971698 - 09/23/08 06:03 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Youve probably seen it, 'the holographic universe'

Experience is 99% delusion, id agree, ie the experience of the senses, but that which experiences experience, the intrinsic awareness, is that 0.1%

What im saying is a mental knowledge of 'this is all illusory' just doesnt cut it, you have to experience with your entire being, with every cell in your body that all of this is an illusion. IMO this is the greatest experience in any body, it was for me the greatest experience possible even though it only lasted a split second...

I say 'you have to experience it' but relly whether you experience it or not is already ecided, theres nothing you can DO to experience it, your body/mind is either destined to realize it or its not ready to have its reality shattered yet...




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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Chronic7]
    #8972348 - 09/23/08 10:34 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Still, i dont consider anything proof except your own direct experiential seeing of it for yourself




Mathematical/logical proof would be one step closer to absolute reality, methinks.  Next is direct experience, and next is assuming the existence of a material world upon which we can base our scientific reasoning.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: deCypher]
    #8972444 - 09/23/08 11:03 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

and

Direct personal experience needs interpretation. There is no way for sure to know if one is interpreting the experience correctly and this happens so often it is common.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Icelander]
    #8972451 - 09/23/08 11:05 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

But the point is that you have no way to determine if your interpretation is correct or not, as any method that you use to do this will have to rely upon your flawed personal experience in the first place.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Icelander]
    #8972469 - 09/23/08 11:07 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Well, I don't know that it needs interpretation, but it sure does get it!  :lol:

It is important to recognize the perceptual filters through which we experience reality.  One of the reasons that scientific exploration is so structured and systematic is that it attempts to work around these filters, and arrive at a better approximation of what has occurred.  The same is true of logical analysis of beliefs...if one's beliefs are constantly at odds with reality, one will experience neurotic resistance to the disparity. 

The choice to maintain the same beliefs, and continue to experience neurotic resistance, appears to be more popular than the choice to revise beliefs to be a better match for reality.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: deCypher]
    #8972470 - 09/23/08 11:08 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Well that's true for sure. That's why we do the best we can with the best guess at what we think is the best evidence.

Without guesses there's no survivals.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Chronic7]
    #8973781 - 09/23/08 03:44 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Chronic777 said:
Because you cant proove what can't be prooven!

Its that simple, it can & never will be prooved.

The whole thing of proof is we search with the mind wanting SOLID evidence, when this is beyond any solid form, the only way to have proof is have it prooved inside you.

As i've said before we only believe something if its our inner direct experience, ifits merely mental then it doesnt sink in & thats the whole point of spirituality, that we stop looking for material satisfaction, that we stop going to the mind for our sense of self, that we start looking beyond what we can smell touch taste hear see & expand our consciousness to allow more awareness to shine through.

Its all about going beyond but within your own self & looking for proof generally is looking for something outside yourself that you can hold and say 'thats it' when that can never be it because you are that, if you start looking for proof with every cell of your body, not just your mind?

If you'd only question yourself instead of others you might see it for yourself, i hope that wasnt too much of a 'personalism', because its true, the only reason people dont 'get this' is because theyre looking for something outside of themselves when the truth its its all inside you.

I no longer see this a mystical truth or some religious ideal, its just true, everything tricks you to get the awareness going outwards when if you just look at yourself you'll see it all

:egyptian:






:psychsplit: :thumbup: :thanx: :cheers:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Veritas]
    #8973906 - 09/23/08 04:05 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

if one's beliefs are constantly at odds with reality, one will experience neurotic resistance to the disparity. 




You only say that because you have NOT mastered denial.


--------------------

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8974049 - 09/23/08 04:38 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Mastery of denial is not on my list of lifetime goals.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Veritas]
    #8974076 - 09/23/08 04:44 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

It may be too difficult a path for you.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8974099 - 09/23/08 04:50 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I can live with that. :shrug:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Veritas]
    #8974122 - 09/23/08 04:57 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

V-e-r-y clever!

You have denied any interest in denial therapy. You win a Cleopatra award for being a hidden master.


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Invisibledeimya
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Icelander]
    #8974132 - 09/23/08 04:59 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Let me quote Wittgenstein's IMO interesting and relevant last few propositions. I don't think I could say it any better.

Quote:

6.44 It is not how things are in the world that is mystical, but that it exists.

6.45 To view the world sub specie aeterni is to view it as a whole -- a limited whole.
Feeling the world as a limited whole--it is this that is mystical

6.5 When the answer cannot be put into words, neither can the question be put into words.
The riddle does not exist.
If a question can be framed at all, it is also possible to answer it.

6.51 Scepticism is not irrefutable, but obviously nonsensical, when it tries to raise doubts where no questions can be asked.
For doubt can exist only where a question exists, a question only where an answer exists, and an answer only where something can be said.

6.52 We feel that even when all possible scientific questions have been answered, the problems of life remain completely untouched. Of course there are then no questions left, and this itself is the answer.

6.521 The solution of the problem of life is seen in the vanishing of the problem.
(Is not this the reason why those who have found after a long period of doubt that the sense of life became clear to them have then been unable to say what constituted that sense ?)

6.522 There are, indeed, things that cannot be put into words. They make themselves manifest. They are what is mystical.

6.53 The correct method in philosophy would really be the following: to say nothing except what can be said, i.e. propositions of natural science--i.e. something that has nothing to do with philosophy--and then, whenever someone else wanted to say something metaphysical, to demonstrate to him that he had failed to give a meaning to certain signs in his propositions. Although it would not be satisfying to the other person--he would not have the feeling that we were teaching him philosophy--this method would be the only strictly correct one.

6.54 My propositions serve as elucidations in the following way: anyone who understands me eventually recognizes them as nonsensical, when he has used them--as steps--to climb up beyond them. (He must, so to speak, throw away the ladder after he has climbed up it.)
He must transcend these propositions, and then he will see the world aright.

7 What we cannot speak about we must pass over in silence.




and P&S is kept alive and confusion is kept taboo.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8974135 - 09/23/08 05:01 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Does that mean that I'm the Queen of Denial? :smile:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Veritas]
    #8974149 - 09/23/08 05:04 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Don't be an asp-kisser. :nono:


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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: deimya]
    #8974455 - 09/23/08 06:05 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

That is awesome.  Thanks for sharing.  Can you tell me if I can find that in a book, and which one?


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: deimya]
    #8974487 - 09/23/08 06:10 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

There are, indeed, things that cannot be put into words.

Like what?


:tongue2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleawesomebastard
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Icelander]
    #8974601 - 09/23/08 06:32 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Every time I ask this it gets completely ignored.  Why is that.



Probably because it's a really good question that immediatly
calls their entire story/beliefs into question.


--------------------
"Absolute certainty is a privilege of uneducated minds and fanatics." ~ C.J. Keyser



Mr. Cypher said: "I just tell the girls how sexy I am and their panties melt."

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: awesomebastard]
    #8974690 - 09/23/08 06:49 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Well now, I wasn't really expecting someone to answer honestly.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinejonathanseagull
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Icelander]
    #8975062 - 09/23/08 07:54 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era, received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.
Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.
The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"
"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #8976094 - 09/23/08 10:58 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Nan-in continues, "I want to fill you with my opinions and speculations."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8977625 - 09/24/08 09:17 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

:thumbup::lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineLion
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Icelander]
    #8978333 - 09/24/08 01:01 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

The entire raison d'être for Zen is to go beyond opinions and speculations in a very simple way: by observing them.  I cannot think of any Zen masters who have tried to fill others with their opinions and speculations, but maybe there have been some.  When a Zen master was asked on his deathbed what dying was like, he said, "It is like a squirrel running on the roof", because that's what he saw when he was dying.  Zen is not really anything at all.  So I don't understand your post.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Lion]
    #8978349 - 09/24/08 01:05 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

When a Zen master was asked on his deathbed what dying was like, he said, "It is like a squirrel running on the roof",




We are not suppposed to take this as an actual description of the process, but when McKenna speaks of elves on DMT, well - you know the drill...


--------------------

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OfflineLion
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #8978378 - 09/24/08 01:10 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

There's a drill?  :shiftyeyes:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Icelander]
    #8979424 - 09/24/08 04:17 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Well now, I wasn't really expecting someone to answer honestly.:lol:




There's nothing wrong with dealing with the universe on a basis of best guesses for the purpose of survival (although this does seem a little dry, if I weren't at least a little curious about the story I would just knock myself off personally). However, to suggest that the operating system on which you function is superior to the belief system of another is simply to endorse the mystical. No functional methodology of dealing with the events thrown at one by the universe will form a perfect closed loop incorporation system, any belief system on which you base skepticism OR enthusiasm is imperfect and subject to inaccuracy.

By taking a stance which is weighted toward either skepticism or enthusiasm, one must unbalance themselves with 'experience as an unbiased force'. To be unbalanced with direct experience is to only endorse one's own (subliminal or otherwise) dogma. Skepticism OR enthusiasm in the face of a truth less than comfortably assimilated is a form of mystical self-worship because it operates on the assumption that the current working model is correct.

IMO the optimal solution is to look at all unknowns and unbelievables as the potential to be both true and false, so that they may be more clearly understood for the motivations behind them. Even people like Dudenj (or me when I act ridiculous) should be believed as much as disbelieved; everything is as it is, and a good reason can be devised for anything should it be desired and properly approached.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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InvisibledeCypher
 User Gallery


Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: The Mystical proof [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8979429 - 09/24/08 04:19 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Well now, I wasn't really expecting someone to answer honestly.:lol:




There's nothing wrong with dealing with the universe on a basis of best guesses for the purpose of survival (although this does seem a little dry, if I weren't at least a little curious about the story I would just knock myself off personally). However, to suggest that the operating system on which you function is superior to the belief system of another is simply to endorse the mystical. No functional methodology of dealing with the events thrown at one by the universe will form a perfect closed loop incorporation system, any belief system on which you base skepticism OR enthusiasm is imperfect and subject to inaccuracy.

By taking a stance which is weighted toward either skepticism or enthusiasm, one must unbalance themselves with experience as an unbiased force. To be unbalanced with experience is to only endorse one's own (subliminal or otherwise) dogma. Skepticism OR enthusiasm in the face of a truth less than comfortably assimilated is a form of mystical self-worship because it operates on the assumption that the current working model is correct.

IMO the optimal solution is to look at all unknowns and unbelievables as the potential to be both true and false, so that they may be more clearly understood for the motivations behind them. Even people like Dudenj (or me when I act ridiculous) should be believed as much as disbelieved; everything is as it is, and a good reason can be devised for anything should it be desired and properly approached.




This viewpoint itself is a belief system, and must be treated accordingly.

*prepares ontological shotgun*


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Invisibledeimya
tofu and monocle
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/26/04
Posts: 825
Loc: ausländer.ch
Re: The Mystical proof [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #8985148 - 09/25/08 03:57 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

jonathanseagull said:
That is awesome.  Thanks for sharing.  Can you tell me if I can find that in a book, and which one?




It is from Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus, the title being an homage to Tractatus Theologico-Politicus by Spinoza. It is quite dry with its numbered propositions but the end is nice. Happy you enjoyed.

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InvisibleLakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Re: The Mystical proof [Re: Middleman]
    #8988473 - 09/26/08 07:49 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Middleman said:
More advanced tests have recently provided a lot of solid evidence.

Dean Radin presents some in this lecture.





more advanced than what?

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