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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Religion a part of politics?
    #896504 - 09/20/02 11:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Anybody feel religion should have some influence upon politics?
Does your spiritual belief have a right to be incorporated into the the law making process?
Statistics say more than half of Americans feel that way, and Almost that many Canadians so speak up if you do.
My apologies if this is the wrong forum but I had to guess out of the 2 there is and felt this bunch may give a more balanced answer.


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #896544 - 09/20/02 11:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Anybody feel religion should have some influence upon politics?

Yes.


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #896548 - 09/20/02 11:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Interresting, can you elaborate?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #896564 - 09/20/02 11:48 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Absolutely not. Its affect on American politics has been horrific.


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Swami]
    #896585 - 09/21/02 12:04 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

American politics are no good today. I dislike the american way of life.......let us go back to the native americans ways please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Devolution folks. The natives had it better.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #896596 - 09/21/02 12:10 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

*sigh* Another myth. In the '40s through '60s the Indians were portrayed by American media as ruthless savages, then for the next few decades were portrayed as spiritually advanced beings. The truth lies somewhere between.

Many Indian tribes were just as savage as any white man and were ruthless to other tribes.

Were they more ecologically balanced? No. The population was so small that ecological impact was negligible. As soon as trade was developed with the French and English, did they start overhunting? Most certainly.


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #896601 - 09/21/02 12:14 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Interresting, can you elaborate? 

Absolutely not. Its affect on American politics has been horrific.

Spirituality is more important than politics. I don't think it has had a true effect on politics yet, if it did would we be living in this corporate slaving, unspiritual, greedy way of life that puts money in front of human life? I think not. But i do agree with what you have said Swami. I do feel that religon has had a horrific affect on politics, but do you feel that real spiritual views are being expressed in politics? Or ignorant close minded religious views? Do you think spirituality has had its true affect on politics yet? I don't
Peace, Trev :ooo: 


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Swami]
    #896606 - 09/21/02 12:15 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

*sigh* Another myth. In the '40s through '60s the Indians were portrayed by American media as ruthless savages, then for the next few decades were portrayed as spiritually advanced beings. The truth lies somewhere between.

Very good points Swami, I agree. Nobody ever knows anything to be truth.


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


Edited by ChubbSubb (09/21/02 12:23 AM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #896621 - 09/21/02 12:22 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

To date, the presidents of the USA (with the possible exception of Kennedy and maybe Carter) have not had a vision for America. They have mostly been reactionaries with their own personal agenda.

Who has made their number 1 cause to be employment and education for all? Elimination of homelessness? Reduction in prison population? A healthy environment? Any real future thinking? None IMHO.

It is ego that leads one to want to become president and all decisions are based on that. A very spiritual person would be unlikely to seek power, or if he did, would have to sell his soul along the way to get support.

Currently, Gary Johnson, guv of NM, is one of the few politicians that impresses me.


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Swami]
    #896628 - 09/21/02 12:26 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Who has made their number 1 cause to be employment and education for all? Elimination of homelessness? Reduction in prison population? A healthy environment? Any real future thinking? None IMHO.

So the question is, do you think that spirituality should have more influence in politics? I think so.


--------------------
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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #896675 - 09/21/02 12:58 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

So the question is, do you think that spirituality should have more influence in politics? I think so.




spirituality and religion can possibly have good effects on politics but the ones seen so far have been bad, to say the least. ethics and altruism should have more influence in politics, not spirituality.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



Edited by Albino_Jesus (09/21/02 01:00 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #896768 - 09/21/02 01:58 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

My apologies if this is the wrong forum but I had to guess out of the 2 there is and felt this bunch may give a more balanced answer.

Not at all.  I see you have sound judgment. :wink:

One proviso and I am serious about this, if the thread shifts too much towards politics and away from religion's role or non-role in politics I will immediately move it to the Political Forum.

A far more interesting question to me is whether or not ethics should play a role in politics.  So far we have seen little of that.

Cheers, 


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #897148 - 09/21/02 10:31 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

spirituality and religion can possibly have good effects on politics but the ones seen so far have been bad, to say the least.

Yes, I agree; but do you feel that spirituality has been represented correctly in politics? I don't feel it has had its true impact yet. If it had, we would have a much different society than what we are living in now.
Peace, Trev :smile: 


--------------------
Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #897158 - 09/21/02 10:37 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

Yes, I agree; but do you feel that spirituality has been represented correctly in politics? I don't feel it has had its true impact yet. If it had, we would have a much different society than what we are living in now.
Peace, Trev




I don't have an opinion on what the "correct" representation of spirituality is, nor do I care really, as I am not a "spiritual" person. in fact, I'd be sort of offended by anything spiritual having an impact on politics even if such impacts turned out to be for good, becausee there are other ways to reach that point which apply to everyone and not just those who are spiritual. as I said, ethics and altruism are a better path to political philosophies that may please everyone.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #897176 - 09/21/02 10:47 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I see your points, and i do agree with you because, like you said, not everyone is a spiritual person. But it is just my opinion that spirituality and religion are much more important in life than politics. I also believe that if this were a spiritual society rather than a political society things would be better. I also know that im dreaming. "You may say that im a dreamer, but im not the only one" - Lennon
Peace man, Trev :wink:


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #897180 - 09/21/02 10:49 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I also believe that if this were a spiritual society rather than a political society

What in the hell does this mean?
Politics will NEVER go away. I'm not getting into this... get a dictionary.


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Sclorch]
    #897199 - 09/21/02 11:01 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It means what it means. I would like to see a complete revolution of ways that are different than are now by 100%. Sorry to make you mad. :blush:
Peace man, Trev


--------------------
Those who know do not speak.
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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Sclorch]
    #897203 - 09/21/02 11:03 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Governments are no good. Do you like being a controlled corporate slave?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #897211 - 09/21/02 11:07 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Funny. I don't think of myself as a controlled corporate slave.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #897212 - 09/21/02 11:07 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

you mean corporations are no good. in this you are correct. some form of minimalistic government is preferable to me over none at all.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Sclorch]
    #897218 - 09/21/02 11:11 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Do you work? Do you sell your time to other people for cash? Do you think money is the most important thing in the world like governments do? Should you have to pay money for necessary functions of life such as food, water, medical care or housing?



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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #897230 - 09/21/02 11:15 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

Do you work? Do you sell your time to other people for cash? Do you think money is the most important thing in the world like governments do? Should you have to pay money for necessary functions of life such as food, water, medical care or housing?





work is necessary for "necessary functions of life such as food, water, medical care or housing". unless you advocate an extreme decrease in our populations so that we can run around fucking and picking fruits from trees all day. but in an ideal world, we'd use our technological abilities to reduce the amount of work needed, and those who work would work doing something they enjoy, and everyone would have equal access to products which are considered "elite", rather than a select few who control the workers hoarding all the wealth and keeping these pleasures to themselves. a complete lack of govt is not necessary to achieve something like utopia.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #897235 - 09/21/02 11:18 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

you mean corporations are no good. in this you are correct. some form of minimalistic government is preferable to me over none at all.

I feel corporations and the government go hand in hand. The rich get richer while the poor get poorer. I would agree that a minimalistic form of a government is needed. But even  then, I would not like to use the word government for it.

Good discussion, Trev :grin:


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #897236 - 09/21/02 11:19 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Actually... I am unemployed right now. hehehe

No, I don't worship the almighty dollar.

Yeah, I do think I should have to pay for goods and services. Although (in a utopia) it would be great to not have to pay for anything I wanted... it's just not realistic. I don't work for free and no one else does either. So, until our entire infrastructure is supported by robots (that can fix and maintain themselves), I'll be throwin' my wad on the counter whenever I want a sixer.


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #897238 - 09/21/02 11:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

a complete lack of govt is not necessary to achieve something like utopia.

Exactly. Why can't bliss be here on earth. I know it will never happen. I just wish everyone would realize that it could happen if we establish new ways of thinking. :tongue:


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


Edited by ChubbSubb (09/21/02 11:29 AM)


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Sclorch]
    #897245 - 09/21/02 11:24 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, I do think I should have to pay for goods and services.

Say a human can not afford to eat or have medical care. Should they just go crawl into a corner and die becasue they dont have paper that has no real value to trade for food? Money is not more important than human life and in todays society money is almost more important than human life. Thats just sad.


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


Edited by ChubbSubb (09/21/02 11:30 AM)


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Sclorch]
    #897251 - 09/21/02 11:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I had cancer for three months before they would treat me because i did not have health insurance. Sad :frown:


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Sclorch]
    #897269 - 09/21/02 11:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I don't work for free and no one else does either.

In utopia you would do work to survive, money would not exist. Do you think 'God' meant for there to be a "cost of living?" We are here to live and that should not involve the no good idea of money.

unless you advocate an extreme decrease in our populations so that we can run around fucking and picking fruits from trees all day.

The more people working together to survive in "utopia" the better. Except for over population, which has already occured.

Nice thread, peace, Trev :smile:


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


Edited by ChubbSubb (09/21/02 11:40 AM)


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #897409 - 09/21/02 12:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Alright, YOU come up with an updated version of The Republic.


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Sclorch]
    #897442 - 09/21/02 01:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

OK! :grin:


--------------------
Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #897444 - 09/21/02 01:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Utopia = no place. Every person's concept of utopia is not identical.

The existence of any life requires effort. Why should one man's life (desire for food shelter and medical care) be a claim on the efforts or the life of another? There is no such thing as a free lunch, everything that you ask government to do requires that it take from another human to satify your desires or needs. If there is a moral crusade that you think should be accomplished, do it through your own effort, do not enlist men with guns (government operatives) to force your fellow human to labor for your dreams.

To paraphrase Bastiat (as I've done before) the moral test of any law is whether it allows the government to commit an act that would be a crime for a private citizen. If you have no right to rob your neighbor to pay for your desires, you have no right to ask the state to do it for you.

"The history of political thought is a history of one euphemism after another to disguise the naked power of the state."
-- Robert Nisbet



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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ]
    #897460 - 09/21/02 01:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Why should one man's life (desire for food shelter and medical care) be a claim on the efforts or the life of another?

Because we are all one.

There is no such thing as a free lunch, everything that you ask government to do requires that it take from another human to satify your desires or needs.

What do you mean by this?

Utopia = no place. Every person's concept of utopia is not identical.

I agree.

do not enlist men with guns (government operatives) to force your fellow
human to labor for your dreams.


I never implied that.


I really don't understand what you are trying to express. Could you explain more?

Peace, Trev




--------------------
Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


Edited by ChubbSubb (09/21/02 01:22 PM)


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #897475 - 09/21/02 01:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

WTF, my number of posts just changed....thats odd.


--------------------
Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ]
    #897635 - 09/21/02 02:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

Utopia = no place





which is why I said "something like utopia"
simply a state where everyone can at least have a good time most of the time


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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Anonymous

Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ]
    #901168 - 09/23/02 06:15 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The discussion of whether or not spirituality should or should not have a place in politics shifted to what should the role of government be in our lives.

This now belongs in the political forum.

Sorry guys.

Cheers,


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #901731 - 09/23/02 12:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

Because we are all one.



Now that's funny!

In reply to:

What do you mean by this?



It means that if you ask the government (as an example) to provide free or reduced cost drugs to seniors, the money must come from somewhere. As a result they take it from the taxpayers. Therefore.... no free lunch (or ride).


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #903352 - 09/23/02 11:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Religion and spirituality always has had a role in shaping nations and their politics. America was foinded by religious men. Some diests, some Christians, some other. But they were religious. The rights we have are supposed to be God given inalienable rights. This always has been a basic tenet of American government and lawmaking.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #903396 - 09/24/02 12:11 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So if they come out with a new testement the laws should be changed?
BTW I feel religion should be nowhere near politics, why do you think they were able to mae the las way back then? By putting thier own religions aside.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #903417 - 09/24/02 12:23 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

There is no morality without religion. If you seek to create a just government with just laws what can you base them on? It must be moral and right? But if there's no God in the picture, if there's not right or wrong than you can not reasonably make moral laws.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #904192 - 09/24/02 09:46 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

There is no morality without religion. If you seek to create a just government with just laws what can you base them on? It must be moral and right? But if there's no God in the picture, if there's not right or wrong than you can not reasonably make moral laws.






I think this statement is extremely ignorant

what about people who have no religion?
are we a-moral?
are we going to raid your house at night and rape and torture you?
no.
the greatest acts of violence and "immorality" in this world have been in the name of religion
religion has nothing to do with morality(I prefer the word ethics)
many people are kind to one another simply by realizing things run a lot smoother when you're nice.
many religious folks have been driven to massive violence in the name of their "god"


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #904637 - 09/24/02 01:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Please Rail Gun, trust me when I tell you that people knew BEFORE Moses went up the mountain taht killing or stealing from others wasn't good. If you believe otherwise then I feel sorry for you.


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #904968 - 09/24/02 02:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

There is no morality without religion.



Now Rail_Gun, you know I'm generally on the same side as you are, but that's just wrong. I'm an atheist and I can assure you I'm far more moral than many church goers I know. Simply going to church and believing in God and religon does not make one moral Nor does not believing in God make one immoral.

As for laws.... if it harms another, it should be illegal. If it affects no one but yourself, it should be legal. That's as moral as it needs to be as far as I'm concerned.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #905010 - 09/24/02 03:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

These truly must be the end days...I agree with Luvdem.  Somebody kill me now... :wink:


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Rono]
    #905025 - 09/24/02 03:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

  Somebody kill me now



Well, if you're sure that's what you want.

:grin:


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #905804 - 09/24/02 10:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Anybody feel religion should have some influence upon politics?
Absolutly Not.
Will It? Of course, most People cant seperate their Religious Beliefs from their Moral Beliefs. This is why People think it is Ok to kill in the  Name of God - Just pick a Culture - God has been used more times than not as a Sheild to justify the Politics of War -
I believe a person can be Moral, and NonReligious at teh Same time. I am not affilaited with  the 'Big 3" yet I adhere to a value of Morals that guide me. Of couse my Morals are skewed due to my persoanl beliefs, my intelect, and gut feeling .But to Joe Q. Public, I 'act' like a proper catholic, or what ever belief system s/he beleives in. My Spiritual heart may come into play when making a descision - yet I rely on reason, and facts to make the final call.
Unless Im on the rag!  :grin:
-OoD
 


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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #906369 - 09/25/02 01:57 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

An important similarity in the scriptures of Islam and Christianity is the fact that both Jesus and Mohammed were seeking alternatives to political turmoil and class society. Mecca had problems originating from struggles between a poverty-stricken working class and a much smaller group of wealthy merchants, while Roman intrusion into the Jewish society caused political upheavals in Judea. Jesus and Mohammed were both poverty-stricken and criticized the very wealthy who were in power. Both taught human equality, and advocated a more even distribution of wealth.

Ironically, these religions were later used to justify class society, exploitation, and wars of aggression. Those at the top of the social hierarchy quickly promoted these belief systems and used them as political tools.


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Edited by Lallafa (09/25/02 01:59 AM)


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