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OfflineChubbSubb
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Registered: 06/03/02
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Sclorch]
    #897218 - 09/21/02 11:11 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Do you work? Do you sell your time to other people for cash? Do you think money is the most important thing in the world like governments do? Should you have to pay money for necessary functions of life such as food, water, medical care or housing?



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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #897230 - 09/21/02 11:15 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

Do you work? Do you sell your time to other people for cash? Do you think money is the most important thing in the world like governments do? Should you have to pay money for necessary functions of life such as food, water, medical care or housing?





work is necessary for "necessary functions of life such as food, water, medical care or housing". unless you advocate an extreme decrease in our populations so that we can run around fucking and picking fruits from trees all day. but in an ideal world, we'd use our technological abilities to reduce the amount of work needed, and those who work would work doing something they enjoy, and everyone would have equal access to products which are considered "elite", rather than a select few who control the workers hoarding all the wealth and keeping these pleasures to themselves. a complete lack of govt is not necessary to achieve something like utopia.


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The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #897235 - 09/21/02 11:18 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

you mean corporations are no good. in this you are correct. some form of minimalistic government is preferable to me over none at all.

I feel corporations and the government go hand in hand. The rich get richer while the poor get poorer. I would agree that a minimalistic form of a government is needed. But even  then, I would not like to use the word government for it.

Good discussion, Trev :grin:


--------------------
Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #897236 - 09/21/02 11:19 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Actually... I am unemployed right now. hehehe

No, I don't worship the almighty dollar.

Yeah, I do think I should have to pay for goods and services. Although (in a utopia) it would be great to not have to pay for anything I wanted... it's just not realistic. I don't work for free and no one else does either. So, until our entire infrastructure is supported by robots (that can fix and maintain themselves), I'll be throwin' my wad on the counter whenever I want a sixer.


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Albino_Jesus]
    #897238 - 09/21/02 11:21 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

a complete lack of govt is not necessary to achieve something like utopia.

Exactly. Why can't bliss be here on earth. I know it will never happen. I just wish everyone would realize that it could happen if we establish new ways of thinking. :tongue:


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


Edited by ChubbSubb (09/21/02 11:29 AM)


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Sclorch]
    #897245 - 09/21/02 11:24 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, I do think I should have to pay for goods and services.

Say a human can not afford to eat or have medical care. Should they just go crawl into a corner and die becasue they dont have paper that has no real value to trade for food? Money is not more important than human life and in todays society money is almost more important than human life. Thats just sad.


--------------------
Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


Edited by ChubbSubb (09/21/02 11:30 AM)


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Sclorch]
    #897251 - 09/21/02 11:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I had cancer for three months before they would treat me because i did not have health insurance. Sad :frown:


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Sclorch]
    #897269 - 09/21/02 11:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I don't work for free and no one else does either.

In utopia you would do work to survive, money would not exist. Do you think 'God' meant for there to be a "cost of living?" We are here to live and that should not involve the no good idea of money.

unless you advocate an extreme decrease in our populations so that we can run around fucking and picking fruits from trees all day.

The more people working together to survive in "utopia" the better. Except for over population, which has already occured.

Nice thread, peace, Trev :smile:


--------------------
Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


Edited by ChubbSubb (09/21/02 11:40 AM)


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #897409 - 09/21/02 12:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Alright, YOU come up with an updated version of The Republic.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Sclorch]
    #897442 - 09/21/02 01:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

OK! :grin:


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Anonymous

Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #897444 - 09/21/02 01:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Utopia = no place. Every person's concept of utopia is not identical.

The existence of any life requires effort. Why should one man's life (desire for food shelter and medical care) be a claim on the efforts or the life of another? There is no such thing as a free lunch, everything that you ask government to do requires that it take from another human to satify your desires or needs. If there is a moral crusade that you think should be accomplished, do it through your own effort, do not enlist men with guns (government operatives) to force your fellow human to labor for your dreams.

To paraphrase Bastiat (as I've done before) the moral test of any law is whether it allows the government to commit an act that would be a crime for a private citizen. If you have no right to rob your neighbor to pay for your desires, you have no right to ask the state to do it for you.

"The history of political thought is a history of one euphemism after another to disguise the naked power of the state."
-- Robert Nisbet



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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ]
    #897460 - 09/21/02 01:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Why should one man's life (desire for food shelter and medical care) be a claim on the efforts or the life of another?

Because we are all one.

There is no such thing as a free lunch, everything that you ask government to do requires that it take from another human to satify your desires or needs.

What do you mean by this?

Utopia = no place. Every person's concept of utopia is not identical.

I agree.

do not enlist men with guns (government operatives) to force your fellow
human to labor for your dreams.


I never implied that.


I really don't understand what you are trying to express. Could you explain more?

Peace, Trev




--------------------
Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


Edited by ChubbSubb (09/21/02 01:22 PM)


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #897475 - 09/21/02 01:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

WTF, my number of posts just changed....thats odd.


--------------------
Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ]
    #897635 - 09/21/02 02:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

Utopia = no place





which is why I said "something like utopia"
simply a state where everyone can at least have a good time most of the time


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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Anonymous

Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ]
    #901168 - 09/23/02 06:15 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The discussion of whether or not spirituality should or should not have a place in politics shifted to what should the role of government be in our lives.

This now belongs in the political forum.

Sorry guys.

Cheers,


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #901731 - 09/23/02 12:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

Because we are all one.



Now that's funny!

In reply to:

What do you mean by this?



It means that if you ask the government (as an example) to provide free or reduced cost drugs to seniors, the money must come from somewhere. As a result they take it from the taxpayers. Therefore.... no free lunch (or ride).


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #903352 - 09/23/02 11:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Religion and spirituality always has had a role in shaping nations and their politics. America was foinded by religious men. Some diests, some Christians, some other. But they were religious. The rights we have are supposed to be God given inalienable rights. This always has been a basic tenet of American government and lawmaking.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #903396 - 09/24/02 12:11 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

So if they come out with a new testement the laws should be changed?
BTW I feel religion should be nowhere near politics, why do you think they were able to mae the las way back then? By putting thier own religions aside.


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #903417 - 09/24/02 12:23 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

There is no morality without religion. If you seek to create a just government with just laws what can you base them on? It must be moral and right? But if there's no God in the picture, if there's not right or wrong than you can not reasonably make moral laws.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineAlbino_Jesus
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Re: Religion a part of politics? [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #904192 - 09/24/02 09:46 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

There is no morality without religion. If you seek to create a just government with just laws what can you base them on? It must be moral and right? But if there's no God in the picture, if there's not right or wrong than you can not reasonably make moral laws.






I think this statement is extremely ignorant

what about people who have no religion?
are we a-moral?
are we going to raid your house at night and rape and torture you?
no.
the greatest acts of violence and "immorality" in this world have been in the name of religion
religion has nothing to do with morality(I prefer the word ethics)
many people are kind to one another simply by realizing things run a lot smoother when you're nice.
many religious folks have been driven to massive violence in the name of their "god"


--------------------
The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door.
-Ralph Nader



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