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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: can't stop thinking about time and space after 6 gram dose. [Re: deCypher]
    #8965601 - 09/21/08 09:03 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Cypher said:
And since there is certainly a "thing" that is experiencing that experience, why not call this thing the ego for lack of a better word?




I do call it the ego.  It's just that I don't consider the experience to actually be "ego death."

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: can't stop thinking about time and space after 6 gram dose. [Re: Plasmid]
    #8965623 - 09/21/08 09:07 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Right, in the literal sense of the words.  But since when are names for things supposed to be taken literally? :wink:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: can't stop thinking about time and space after 6 gram dose. [Re: Plasmid]
    #8967847 - 09/22/08 11:49 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Plasmid said:
Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
So do you retain awareness of the ego at all times during experience? Or simply through the ego?




You don't ever have to be consciously aware of how your ego is constructed.  It's an unconsciously constructed subjectivity, so you're not aware that of how your brain conceptualizes "you" in verbal-analytic terms.

Even, at the extreme, I think of my dissociative experiences, which fragment and crumble my ego more than any serotoninergic drug.  On a high DXM or ketamine dose, I might not be consciously aware of the fact that I'm a human being who feels this strange way because of something called a "drug."  The ego is simply the model of who or what is experiencing.

To answer your question then, conscious awareness is maintained through the ego during psychedelic experiences.  In psychedelic experiences and normal waking awareness, you may not necessarily be aware of your ego to an extent beyond the fact that you know that right now you're deep in though, or reading, or tripping.

Quote:

Was the ego already there before the word 'ego' was invented?
What about before language was invented?




I think so, though I think that language is linked to the process by which sensory input is transformed into subjective experience.  Language is a tool which would have provided the brain with a powerful tool for defining and categorizing one's ego (for now one's sense of self could be spelled out explicitly, such as with relational concepts for temporal order and so forth).  I don't think that one came before the other, necessarily, as much as I think their development goes hand in hand.

Quote:

What about before we could recognize ourself as a discrete organism?




Well, it's possible that we could go through developmental stages where we don't understand ourselves as being entirely separate from the world.  That is not an ego-less state; it's just a different ego.

Quote:

What about before we evolved away from the amoeba?




I see no reason to think that amoeba have subjective experience, so I think that they have no ego.

Quote:

Does a sperm have an ego?
A fetus?
A 1 year old?




I think:
no.
Maybe.
Yes.


Quote:

What is the difference between having an ego; and knowing you have an ego?




Very little.  It's simply another ego construct, except in this construct, the ego is aware of its own existence as a model.  I tend to see my own experience as varying between states where I am highly aware of my ego and other states where I forget that the way I understand myself is a model.

Quote:

I would like you to prove to me that the ego is something other than a conceptual arrangement used for advancing the notion of self-centrality of intelligence.




I can't prove anything.  I can only try to disprove things.  I don't see why you think that the burden of proof should be on me to disprove an idea you thought up.

It is, at the very least, possible that the ego merely is a 'conceptual arrangement' to advance the notion of "self-centrality of intelligence."  I don't see how I'm supposed to disprove something that could possibly be true.

Quote:

that this sight I use to take in my environment is in fact a separate entity from it.




Huh?  If you want to sign up for experimental brain surgery, don't ask me.  Also, I don't think that the ego is separate from you.  The ego is your model of you.  It's like opening up the "system" application in Windows and looking at all your system's components.  That list is not the same thing as those components, but that list *is* a part of those components.




I like watching the egotistical fumble to try and fit inside the universes they define around themselves. :grin:

The underlined sections are a few examples of times when you succumb to the inevitability that the ego is a concept, and nothing more. The ego is simply a crude model which can be applied in vain attempt to encapsulate the all encompassing experience.

The italicized sections are some examples of when you attempt to project your theories into truth, and manifest "facts about the ego". Yet it is quite easy to see that your subjective experience is the thing manipulating the definition into place.

You have proven it to yourself; the ego is a concept.

Ego death is when this concept dies; when you have no capacity for this concept.

You have concluded yourself that the human organism itself throughout its lifetime attains an ego. You have concluded yourself that the ego and the language required to describe it are inexplicably linked. You have concluded yourself that the ego is a concept. You have concluded yourself that the concept of ego can be destroyed from subjective experience psychedelic experience.

I conclude that experience without the ability to form the concept of ego is experience without the concept of ego.

*corners plasmid in his ego*


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: can't stop thinking about time and space after 6 gram dose. [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8975509 - 09/23/08 09:11 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
I like watching the egotistical fumble to try and fit inside the universes they define around themselves. :grin:




You know what I think of this sentence?  It's a rhetorical attempt to provoke a response which you can further call "egotistical" because you (for some reason) think that calling me "egotistical" will offend me.  I'm very obviously egotistical, but I'm fumbling around this universe just as much as you are.  Why is it more fun to watch the "egotistical" people like me try to figure out the universe around them?  Is that grin supposed to signify your transcendence (which certainly would be egotistical of you - though your responses to me have been framed with metaphors of you looking down from a transcendental POV on poor egotistical Plasmid, fumbling around this universe which doesn't understand, yet you do - I'm not saying that this is your explicit set of beliefs, but it's pretty obvious that the way you're addressing me is to 'talk down' to me - my guess is that you're trying to get me angry in order to (1) get me to slip up and make mistakes and (2) further illustrate how egotistical I am).



Quote:

you succumb to the inevitability that the ego is a concept, and nothing more.




No.  I do think that the ego is more than merely a concept.  When I say something like, "X is simply . . .", that doesn't mean that I'm saying that "X is simply, AND ONLY, . . .".  My concept of the ego is that the ego is a model.

Quote:

The ego is simply a crude model . . .




This makes it sound like you think that the ego is more than just a concept.  That is, it seems as though you're saying what I said: that your concept of the ego is that the ego is a model (so, it *is* something beyond being just a concept.

Quote:

. . . which can be applied in vain attempt to encapsulate the all encompassing experience.




I think it's silly to call the application of the ego "vain."  It lets you make subjective, conscious decisions.  I'm not going to call it vain just because any conscious action I may take is basically insignificant in comparison to the absolute vastness of the universe.

Quote:

The italicized sections are some examples of when you attempt to project your theories into truth . . .




LOL.  Dude, that's the whole point of theories, though I would really not call my ideas about the ego "theories" but yes, I am trying to get my ideas to converge with truth to the best extent that I can.  I consider it absolutely essential that hypotheses and theories are proclaimed as true.

Seriously though, I just see that sentence as another attempt at provoking an angry response.  *OF COURSE* I'm trying to say something which I think is true.  Do you really think you're pointing out something astonishing?  You make it sound like I'm trying to aggressively invade reality.

Quote:

Yet it is quite easy to see that your subjective experience is the thing manipulating the definition into place.




So?  This isn't at all surprising, if true.  I try to define things in a manner which I consider truthful.  I can't ever guarantee that my definitions will be absolutely true, but I can reject false definitions by comparing them against subjective experience.

What else could possibly affect the way I understand reality than my subjective experience?

On the other, I have to consider what you've just said to me as an assumption and nothing more.  First of all, I think it's asinine of you to claim that you can possibly see how my subjective experiences "manipulate" my definitions.  Plus, I do think that subjective experience is produced by definitions which are already formed in one's mind - so you may have a chicken and egg situation with definitions (concepts) influencing subjective experience which in turn modify definitions.


Quote:

You have proven it to yourself; the ego is a concept.




It is a concept.  Correct.
Is it only a concept? No.

Quote:

Ego death is when this concept dies; when you have no capacity for this concept.




Yep and it necessarily entails a lack of subjectivity.

Quote:

You have concluded yourself that the ego and the language required to describe it are inexplicably linked.




No.

You're starting to tire my by telling me what I've said, thought, proven, etc. 

I do not think that the ego and language are "inexplicably" linked.

Quote:

You have concluded yourself that the ego is a concept.




When I read that, it just made me sigh.  Do you really think that this sentence I've quoted is surprising to ANY extent?  Yes, the ego is a concept, but I also think that it is more than that.

Quote:

You have concluded yourself that the concept of ego can be destroyed from subjective experience psychedelic experience.




No, I haven't.

Quote:

*corners plasmid in his ego*




I think you're obviously trying to "get to me."  Well you are, but not in the way I think you want to.

I mean, I think this sentence is a pretty good attempt.  I think that you want me to respond by telling you that you're wrong, because you could then use that response as 'evidence' that my ego is threatened (this reminds me of the logical fallacy informally known as "poisoning the well").

Really though, I do think that a lot of what you're saying is nonsense, so it'll be pretty easy to show 'evidence' of my "threatened ego."  You can claim all you want that the reason I said that a lot of your responses are not very clear and a bit nonsensical because of the horrible threat to my ego but that doesn't make you right.

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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: can't stop thinking about time and space after 6 gram dose. [Re: Plasmid]
    #8975985 - 09/23/08 10:31 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

You are like a neurosurgeon with the English language.Very nicely done.


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Offlinemaysrome
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Re: can't stop thinking about time and space after 6 gram dose. [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #8976060 - 09/23/08 10:51 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

this thread is intense...like camping. :blazed:


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Es muss sein?!

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OfflinePatisotagami
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Re: can't stop thinking about time and space after 6 gram dose. [Re: Artnotwar]
    #8976328 - 09/23/08 11:41 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Do some research on Fractals.

They are infinite. Just like the Universe. Just like time, space, and all of us.

Where do YOU end?

You are infinite.

You can zoom in as far as you want to a fractal, and it will just keep repeating the same design. It goes infinitely "in" and infinitely "out"... never stopping.
:psychsplit:


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EVERYTHING IS EVERYTHING

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InvisibleBridgeburner
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Re: can't stop thinking about time and space after 6 gram dose. [Re: Patisotagami]
    #8976364 - 09/23/08 11:48 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

i think the revelation of "we are all insignificant on the grand scale of time/space of the universe" is just an initiatory phase into greater understanding on the road to universal compassion and awakening. or it may lead you into clinical depression.


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OfflinePoppygod
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Re: can't stop thinking about time and space after 6 gram dose. [Re: Bridgeburner]
    #8976451 - 09/24/08 12:07 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

fuck the terminology its all about the meaning behind it, if people can't look past the word FUCK them too :smile:

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: can't stop thinking about time and space after 6 gram dose. [Re: Plasmid]
    #8980954 - 09/24/08 09:05 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Well after writing a nice long response, apparently I used too many quotes.

The point I was making isn't that complicated.

The concept of ego is a concept; your intention to suggest that the concept is somehow more than a concept is a demonstration of dogma. I am not here to tell you what supernatural forces to believe in. I am here to reveal the fact that your concept of Ego is a supernatural one, and to demonstrate how you may use your supernatural concept to belittle the beliefs of others (ie: ego death).

A concept cannot be more than a concept, even if you hold the concept to be of great importance to you. The communicable bound of the concept is the same bound as that of the concept- a suggestion that one must believe in a concept beyond the tangible limit of its explanation is simply a demand of faith no different than that of religion.

Quote:

Plasmid said:
I think that language is linked to the process by which sensory input is transformed into subjective experience.




This is where you link the concept of language and ego, which you contest. Unless you are suggesting that language is transformed into subjective experience outside the ego.

Quote:

I do not think that the ego and language are "inexplicably" linked.




You seem to insinuate it is possible to defend the logic behind saying ego is linked to language through the ego. Your use of circular definition of ego is clever, but simply serves the purpose of demonstrating that the ego is immediately proven true by its acceptance as an axiom.



The suggestion that I wish to make you angry is simply a way of alleviating yourself of responsibility for being angry at me; feel free to understand what I am saying if you prefer.



In any case, we may wish to move this to P&S rather than thread-jacking this further.

I am more interested in isolating the faith based logic you use to denounce the concept of ego-death than in the social display you seem to allude to.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Re: can't stop thinking about time and space after 6 gram dose. [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #8980998 - 09/24/08 09:13 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Bravo! Excellent retort! *munches popcorn*


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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: can't stop thinking about time and space after 6 gram dose. *DELETED* [Re: tyrannicalrex]
    #8981304 - 09/24/08 10:06 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by Mufungo

Reason for deletion: .



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InvisibleDepthToTheCore
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Re: can't stop thinking about time and space after 6 gram dose. [Re: Mufungo]
    #8981570 - 09/24/08 10:40 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I only skipped through this thread, but i've thought like this since my first acid trip when i was 16. I also hit ego loss on this trip, quite a hefty thing to deal with on your first LSD experience at 16 haha.

You will learn to accept it and actually enjoy it. I have come to peace with the way i think nowadays and actually love the fact that i constantly analyze things and think outside the square.

It's always confronting at first, but as time passes you'll learn to accept it and enjoy it.


--------------------


"Those who dance are considered insane by those who cannot hear the music." - George Carlin

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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: can't stop thinking about time and space after 6 gram dose. *DELETED* [Re: DepthToTheCore]
    #8981621 - 09/24/08 10:47 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Post deleted by Mufungo

Reason for deletion: .



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InvisibleDepthToTheCore
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Re: can't stop thinking about time and space after 6 gram dose. [Re: Mufungo]
    #8981640 - 09/24/08 10:49 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, i got some sugar cubes that had been dosed with 3 drops a piece. I didn't know this until it was too late.

Not to worry, it was one of the best trips of my life and has changed me for the better. I wouldn't take it back for anything, and that goes for all of my trips, every single one of them is valuable in some way or another.

Getting to know your inner psyche, its extremely rewarding.


--------------------


"Those who dance are considered insane by those who cannot hear the music." - George Carlin

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Invisiblederanger
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Re: can't stop thinking about time and space after 6 gram dose. [Re: Artnotwar]
    #8982210 - 09/25/08 12:33 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

intense_cutn said:
a few weeks ago, i had a 6 gram dose that totally blew my mind, and i had total ego loss.




there's always more... death of identification goes deep, so deep that you will wake up being in multiple places at once trying to ground yourself back into your body.  don't be deceived by your first experience.

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Offline5HTSynaptrip
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Re: can't stop thinking about time and space after 6 gram dose. [Re: Artnotwar]
    #8983594 - 09/25/08 10:25 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Check this out.

Pale Blue Dot


--------------------


Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge. - My hero, who will be forever remembered, Carl Sagan.


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Offlinegarzythebear
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Re: can't stop thinking about time and space after 6 gram dose. [Re: 5HTSynaptrip]
    #8984095 - 09/25/08 12:30 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Pale Blue Dot is awesome.  I also enjoyed the book Cosmos, never got a chance to see the TV show.  Sagan was such a genius.

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OfflineOneRainyWish
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Re: can't stop thinking about time and space after 6 gram dose. [Re: Artnotwar]
    #8984674 - 09/25/08 02:33 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

time and space? I cant stop think about the time it takes you to suck the space between some fucking nigger battletoad balls.

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OfflineArtnotwar
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Re: can't stop thinking about time and space after 6 gram dose. [Re: OneRainyWish]
    #8986387 - 09/25/08 08:00 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

OneRainyWish i don't know what your on about, but i think everyone sorta took my post in the wrong way.

this is not something i am worried about, it's just i have been thinking about it A LOT, and it has been a bit weird. nothing to worry about, and i actually like being able to think of this weird thing called 'life' in a way that most other people can't.


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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Until the 20th century, reality was everything humans could touch, smell, see,
and hear.
Since the initial publication of the charged electromagnetic spectrum, humans
learned that what they can touch, smell, see, and hear... is less than one
millionth of reality.
--------------------------------


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