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InvisiblelIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger

Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 11,123
Loc: Texas
Re: Freedom [Re: Icelander]
    #8953256 - 09/19/08 02:49 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
So if my best guess is correct then nothing matters ultimately. So if that's true then you could say that you are free to do as you choose. This is the biggest benefit of nothing mattering IMO.

BUT

Can you take that freedom and use it? This is the thing that usually gets overlooked when people contemplate this. They think it will be straight sailing. But can you ever get over your cultural programs, your personal bias and fear and guilt, your personal programmed values of right and wrong?

For instance most believe that their interpretations of what is right has more value then what they consider wrong. But if nothing matters that would not be true. All things would have equal value.

To choose to be this or that in the world is all the same except on a personal level. But are you really free to choose?

I don't think we are.




I think we can choose, but we almost always choose to follow our prejudices and bias because that feels better than going against them. Maybe that's what you meant though.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Freedom [Re: Veritas]
    #8953385 - 09/19/08 04:16 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Yes, even if we can never be 100% free, we can increase the degree of freedom with which we live.  :thumbup:




And this is where stretch pants come into play.


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OfflineBoots
Disenchanted
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Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 15 years, 4 months
Re: Freedom [Re: Icelander]
    #8953631 - 09/19/08 06:34 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
For instance most believe that their interpretations of what is right has more value then what they consider wrong. But if nothing matters that would not be true. 




If nothing matters, then concepts like right and wrong would cease to exist. Or, at the very least, the person would not acknowledge these concepts as functioning.


But to your thesis: are we free? We only have as much freedom as others are willing to give up.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Freedom [Re: sirbojangles]
    #8953908 - 09/19/08 09:03 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

sirbojangles said:
i like to define freedom as a boundless life

if youd like to just 'live' then who care about freedom

you are even bound by very the concept of freedom


 

Freedom = Boundless. What does that mean? Explain a boundless life and give examples of who leads one if you can.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineMycologyReports
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Registered: 09/02/08
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Re: Freedom [Re: Icelander]
    #8954497 - 09/19/08 11:55 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Right and wrong hold weight wither equally important or not. If you murdered people all the time your mind would know it was wrong, unless conditioned to act otherwise, which is completely possible. Right and wrong are "feeling" so to speak; Meaning that even if good and bad wasn't imposed since birth I believe you would still know what each felt like, even without complex language to explain it. What you feel is right and wrong is completely independent upon a number of factors that scientist still cant explain (nature vs. nurture in determining values), but I think that as humans we feel, and as part of feeling we can feel guilt about doing the "wrong" thing.

Heres my hypothetical situation: An early hominid kills his mother. He would then feel loss, which would lead to guilt. If he was to feel guilt that would be implying that he knew he did something wrong.

The exact opposite could explain "right". Helping a wounded person/animal COULD make him feel proud as if he has helped. Implying that he knew he did a good thing.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Freedom [Re: MycologyReports]
    #8954502 - 09/19/08 11:57 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

unless conditioned to act otherwise, which is completely possible.

Completely possible? IMO it's a given.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineMycologyReports
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Re: Freedom [Re: Icelander]
    #8954560 - 09/19/08 12:11 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

given- that if not taught killing others was wrong it wouldn't "hurt" so to speak?

I do have to repectfully disagree. Without reason for killing, (food, skins, ect.) I do not believe humans would just maliciously kill with out regard to life.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Freedom [Re: MycologyReports]
    #8954578 - 09/19/08 12:18 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

They would if they had not developed empathy.

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InvisibleChronic7

Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 13,679
Re: Freedom [Re: Icelander]
    #8954633 - 09/19/08 12:28 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I dont think we are free to choose, superficially maybe, but not choice like we would like to believe we have.

In answer to the rest of your question i dont necessarily think you can undo all conditioning etc...as that conditioning is here to play out, but you can realize that you are not whats conditioned, which is freedom in my book, freedom to realize that you are in essence beyond all of this universe & you are untouched like space.

When you realize this freedom theres no "what can i do with this", youve undone everything & now let go of life, so what is there left to 'do' with freedom?

Freedom for me is freedom from thoughts that sway the attention & freedom from the stickyness of 'doing', realizing you are not the doer & living an effortless life, its all just freedom from thoughts, breaking down the mental cages

If at one time you feel free & another you feel bound, isit not just a thought that stands between the two? (i know people in prison who agree with that statement!)


:peace:


--------------------

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
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Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,689
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Re: Freedom [Re: Icelander]
    #8954688 - 09/19/08 12:46 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

That is why Castaneda characterized acheiving freedom as an ongoing battle.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Freedom [Re: MycologyReports]
    #8954846 - 09/19/08 01:23 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MycologyReports said:If you murdered people all the time your mind would know it was wrong, unless conditioned to act otherwise, which is completely possible.




This entirely depends upon one's personal neurochemical makeup and social conditioning.  Sociopaths, for instance, have been shown to simply not have or care about such emotions as guilt or fear.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineMycologyReports
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Re: Freedom [Re: deCypher]
    #8955039 - 09/19/08 02:03 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

This entirely depends upon one's personal neurochemical makeup and social conditioning.  Sociopaths, for instance, have been shown to simply not have or care about such emotions as guilt or fear.



...uhhhh, good point. But are sociopath are product of the human mind or the human mind in society? Probably brain chemistry.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
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Re: Freedom [Re: MycologyReports]
    #8955055 - 09/19/08 02:06 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I'd bet it's mostly genetics.  There are several factors during childhood that can provide indications towards sociopathy during adulthood, and rehabilitation has been remarkably unsuccessful at humanizing sociopaths.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Freedom [Re: deCypher]
    #8955240 - 09/19/08 02:54 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

They've found a genetic link towards violent behavior, but not one for sociopathology.  The most-likely cause of sociopathology is childhood neglect & abuse.  It would seem that we learn to connect with other beings, and to feel empathy.  If we do not experience connection and empathy from our primary caregiver(s), this capacity does not develop.

Rehabilitation of children under age 13 who exhibit classic traits of sociopathology has been somewhat successful, but therapy after this age appears ineffective.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Freedom [Re: Veritas]
    #8955467 - 09/19/08 04:01 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Isn't it possible that the neurobiological mechanism for having empathy wasn't there to begin with for certain individuals though, due to a genetic fluke?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Freedom [Re: deCypher]
    #8955484 - 09/19/08 04:06 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

It's possible, but the sociopaths who have been interviewed offer remarkably similar portraits of their early childhoods.  I suppose they could have inherited this "lack" from their parent, who was also a sociopath & thus neglected and abused them, but the traits seem to be exhibited by those who were raised by abusive foster parents, as well.

The book, "A General Theory of Love," offers some interesting ideas regarding limbic entrainment.  This process probably begins in utero, and continues throughout early childhood.  Essentially, the mother's emotional pattern is imprinted upon the growing fetus & then further developed through interactions from birth to age three.  Sustained eye contact, touching & synchronization of heart rate/breathing/blood pressure work together to "teach" the infant how to connect with and feel empathy for other beings.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Freedom [Re: Veritas]
    #8955489 - 09/19/08 04:07 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, at this level it's going to be extraordinarily difficult to successfully differentiate between what was nature and what was nurture.  If only pesky things such as ethics didn't have to be taken into account when doing psychology experiments...


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Freedom [Re: deCypher]
    #8955501 - 09/19/08 04:11 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Well, it's a bit of a no-brainer that being loved and protected during childhood is better for humans than being neglected and abused.  :shrug:

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