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OfflineParesthesia
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Supplements for Pasteurized Sawdust?
    #8954825 - 09/19/08 01:19 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Okay, let me see if I have this right.  The standard supplement for a sawdust substrate is wheat bran.  This requires long pasteurization times because wheat bran is high in bacterial endospores and whatnot, and contaminates easily.

This is fine for those people who have deep pockets to pay the gas/electric bill when doing a lot of PCing, especially those of us who have electric stoves.  Electricity is probably the least efficient way of generating heat.  This really doesn't sit well with me, so I think my experiments with growing wood decomposers will mostly involve pasteurizing heat treated wood products like wood pellet fuel, kiln dried sawdust and paper products, at least until I can build that giant solar oven. :smile:

So my question here is, what "natural" nitrogen supplements are best for this?  What makes bran prone to contamination is it's readily available nutrients, right?  So the logical remedy for this problem is including nitrogen sources that aren't readibly available to competetors.  I have lots of organic gardening products available for experimentation, and here are some of the things I have available or will consider trying:

Slow-Release Nitrogen Supplements:
Feather Meal (12-0-0): Very high in nitrogen, which is bound up in proteins that are not water soluble. The nitrogen is released over a long period of time.  Doing a search here I discovered that this is a component of a patented spawn medium, and is high in... hemicellulose?  I'm not sure how that affects the mushrooms, but it sounds like it's more nutritionally complex, and variations in substrate material should make for a more vigorous mycelium, right?
Crab Meal (5-2-0.5): Made from processed crab shells, slow release like Feather Meal.  (As an aside, back when I was in school I had a professor in a lower division biology course from the Erdu region of India.  When we got to crustaceans, I couldn't help laughing when he pronounced chitin like "chit-in.")
Corn Gluten Meal (10-0-0): Another slow release fertilizer, this one has the additional benefit.  Apparently fungi have a strong affinity for this stuff.  It also inhibits weed growth, so I may end up using it in my outdoor garden beds, especially those in which I'm companion planting with mushrooms.  (This was discovered to be an herbicide in a study of soil fungi!)  Also a component of the "patented super spawn."
Cotton Seed Meal (6-1-1): Slow release nitrogen supplement, cheap and readily available in my area.  The major problem with this is that it tends to acidify the substrate.  I would have to add additional lime to compensate for the cottonseed meal as it breaks down, wouldn't I?

I need to figure out the actual rates of nitrogen release for these additives, which seems like important info to have when calculating substrate/supplement ratios. :smile:

Additional additives:
Using Additional (grain) Spawn: Sure, but how economical is that?  It's not economical!  And it requires more energy input, which is what I'm trying to reduce!
Coffee Grounds (2-0.3-0.2): This works well for aggressive colonizers like oysters, but I'm not sure of how well pasteurized grounds will work for slower growing species like Shiitake.  I just made up an oyster mushroom "log" last night using 70/30 pine cat litter and coffee grounds, so I will see how this works out in a couple of weeks.
Compost or Manure Tea, Compost Activator, and Agricultural Molasses: I would have to add this after pasteurization, but I think it would give beneficial microbes in the substrate a bit of a head start in warding off contamination.  Another thought I've had on this is that I can boil wood chips and then treat them with compost activator/tea after they've cooled down.  Would this eliminate the need to sterilize wood chips?
Hair: Advantage, it's free!  Disadvantage:  I'm not sure of the legal aspects of collecting human hair from salons, but I don't think mushrooms appreciate having "product" in their substrate.  The same can be said for flea shampoo from pets.  Also, I have no idea of what the nutritional content is, and it certainly would not meet the requirements for organic cultivation!
Plain old chicken feathers: Oh yes, these can be obtained from crafts stores, but I'd probably avoid the ones that have been dyed pink.  I've discussed mycofiltration extensively with a chicken rancher who sells eggs at a farmer's market I hit every weekend.  He's going to buy a copy of Mycelium Running!  Seeing as the chickens are allowed some pasture time and are fed organic feed, I would think the feathers would be perfectly viable for a substrate additive, but I'd have to clean the chicken poop off of them somehow.
Denatured, coated nitrogen supplements: I'm not sure where I'd find these, but they're apparently used extensively in large scale commercial operations.  The typical industry pellet is made from soybean meal treated with formaldehyde which I'd like to avoid if possible, but there may be more natural alternatives.

Alright, that's enough for now.  I'd like to know if anyone has tried using any of these supplements and what the results have been.  I'm also curious about substrates overheating.  Would using a slow release nitrogen supplement reduce overheating problems significantly?

Edit: Should this be moved or cross-posted to the Advanced  Mycology forum?


--------------------
"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."

- T. S. Eliot


Edited by Paresthesia (09/19/08 02:22 PM)


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Supplements for Pasteurized Sawdust? [Re: Paresthesia]
    #8955248 - 09/19/08 02:56 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

All of those additives should be sterilized except perhaps the feathers, which I've never used.  Don't wash the chicken manure off.  It's one of the best supplements.

I take exception that electricity is the least efficient method of heating.  You get direct transfer of heat from the element to your product, unlike with gas or wood heat.

Bran supplements will easily pay for the electricity used to sterilize properly by increasing yield.  Unless you're in a third world country without electricity, it's what I suggest.

Cotton seed meal supplements don't requre lime.  Mushroom mycelium prefers an acidic substrate.  Cotton seed hulls can be used as substrate.

Your thread is fine here. Please don't cross-post across forums.
RR


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Re: Supplements for Pasteurized Sawdust? [Re: Paresthesia]
    #8955502 - 09/19/08 04:11 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

The addition of supplements that add nitrogen increase your chances for bacterial contamination, which is why sterilization is necessary.

As Roger Rabbit said you can use manure. Leached stable bedding where the stables use woodchips can be used as a substrate and is usually free for the taking if you can find a stable.

Cotton seed hulls can be pasteurized by  boiling them in water and then simmering for 20 minutes or so, these are very good for growing oysters. For other wood lovers you would probably have to sterilize the cotton seed hulls.


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OfflineParesthesia
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Re: Supplements for Pasteurized Sawdust? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #8955625 - 09/19/08 04:41 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I take exception that electricity is the least efficient method of heating.  You get direct transfer of heat from the element to your product, unlike with gas or wood heat.




Yes, you are correct!  Gas and wood do waste a considerable amount of energy.  I should have been more precise in what I'm trying to relate here.

I have a metal coil element cooktop, which isn't nearly as energy efficient as solid ceramic halogen or radiant element cooktop.  Induction element cooktops seem very exciting, but sadly require cookware made from ferrous metals.

My primary interest here isn't strictly saving money, although my electric bills the last few months have been through the roof.  I'm just trying to use less so that the ungrateful generation that follows mine will have a little more.  It may just be time to shell out the cash for solar panels.

If I must autoclave everything, so be it!  It costs what it costs.


--------------------
"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."

- T. S. Eliot


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Offlinedenger
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Re: Supplements for Pasteurized Sawdust? [Re: Paresthesia]
    #8955988 - 09/19/08 06:10 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Paresthesia, you are bringing up a very interesting question. Not sure if you are going about it in the right way, but I'm on board that it takes too damn much energy and time to sterilize or pasteurize the wood based substrates. I am pretty certain that no matter what additive you use, you still would want to sterilize or pasteurize the media. There might be contaminants in your wood chips, after all they were handled in some way, and they were not created in aseptic condition.

I have thought about this for a while now, and it seems to me if we stick with a classical ways of pasteurizing the media, doing so in larger quantity at a time is probably more energy efficient. In your situation, a coil-type electrical stove element is indeed inefficient because it does not transfer the heat very well to the pot. There are alternatives: you can get an outdoor propane burner (like a turkey fryer type), or you can get a submersible electric heating element and use that to generate steam for pasteurization.

A much more energy efficient, but possibly less effective way of sterilizing media is with short wave UV sources. Unfortunately, since our media is not transparent to UV, it requires continuous slow turning and extremely long times (I would guess 24 hours or more for this type of substrate). It is also far from perfect because it will not kill whatever is below the surface of any wood chip.

Yet another way is to use peroxide solution instead of water to prepare your media. This might slow down mycelial growth at the beginning of colonization, and it will not prevent already growing fungal contaminants from contuinuing, but might still be a worthwhile method to experiment with. As a matter of fact, I plan on trying it out.  But depending on your scale, it might not be financially viable.

Speaking of scale, if you can afford it (my guess not), a gamma radiation sterilizer is by far the most energy efficient system. It lets you zap truly large amounts of whatever, and affords almost 100% cleanliness in a relatively short time. Too bad, I have not seen one of them on eBay yet. :grin:


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Re: Supplements for Pasteurized Sawdust? [Re: denger]
    #8957053 - 09/19/08 11:08 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Has anybody tried a woodbased substrate fermented with one of the cultures that Mycelio has been working with lately?  Perhaps a 25/75% mix of grain/wood fermented as per his procedure would produce a wood substrate that wouldn't require pasteurization/sterilization.  Just a thought.

Thoughts?


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Re: Supplements for Pasteurized Sawdust? [Re: MycoAu]
    #8957599 - 09/20/08 02:37 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I have done a few experiments on anaerobic fermentation last winter, but all of them failed. However, I remember reading about aerobic fermentation of wood chips, bran, lime and some nitrogen rich supplement on an outdoor pile for two or three weeks, turning it once a week. I think it was for shiitake. I'll see if I can find the description again.

Carsten


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Re: Supplements for Pasteurized Sawdust? [Re: Mycelio]
    #8957699 - 09/20/08 04:14 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I personally have a problem with hot plates.  The bottoms of all three of my largest PCs are concave and there is no contact between the element and bottom aside from the outer most edge. Takes forever to get up to temp above pasteurization.


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Re: Supplements for Pasteurized Sawdust? [Re: JaComet]
    #8957850 - 09/20/08 06:51 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

you could build a solar oven with reflector and put the bags directly into it, these ovens reachs 121 celsius


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OfflineParesthesia
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Re: Supplements for Pasteurized Sawdust? [Re: Mycelio]
    #8957903 - 09/20/08 07:26 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mycelio said:
I have done a few experiments on anaerobic fermentation last winter, but all of them failed. However, I remember reading about aerobic fermentation of wood chips, bran, lime and some nitrogen rich supplement on an outdoor pile for two or three weeks, turning it once a week. I think it was for shiitake. I'll see if I can find the description again.

Carsten




See, this is what I'm talking about!  My experiments with fermenting yard waste haven't really come to fruition yet.  I think the bacteria are killing off the spores I've added directly to the substrate, so the next attempt will involve adding established spawn to the bags.  I finally got my wood blewit spore print in the mail, so I'll start with that once I have some strains isolated.

I know mushrooms and plants are different, but in my experience, plants perform better when paired with the correct set of "helper" organisms.  I've been seeding garden beds with mycorrhizal spores for a couple of years now, and they seem to do a good job of helping plants fight off things like early blight or powdery mildew.  I've also used a commercial bacterial treatment for powdery mildew, which contains streptomyces lydicus endospores.  (This is one of the bacterial species included with FP's Mycogrow products, so I'm kind of assuming it's alright to use in garden beds that I'm growing mushrooms in.)

That's one of the points of using a casing layer, isn't it?  I think this is my next experiment.  Adding raw compost to pasteurized sawdust before inoculation.  I have a couple of king oyster jars ready to go right now, and I will hit the fertilizer shop at some point this morning to find corn gluten, crab or feather meal.


--------------------
"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."

- T. S. Eliot


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OfflineParesthesia
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Re: Supplements for Pasteurized Sawdust? [Re: Paresthesia]
    #8962232 - 09/21/08 08:43 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Please bear with me, this is my first real attempt at making up supplemented sawdust for fruiting where I actually calculate everything.

Yesterday I went to a fertilizer shop here that carries just about everything you might want.  I was like a kid in a candy store!  Many of the items in my initial posting were available there.

I was unable to find feather meal or crab meal, but I'm going to keep looking.  I did, however, find a 50lb sack of corn gluten meal for $40, which is a lot less expensive than buying smaller mail ordered amounts.  Only one problem.  The powdered corn gluten meal they had is sold as an additive for animal feed, not a fertilizer.  The only info I found on the bag was... 60% protein, 1.5% crude fats, 2% crude fiber.

This is pretty close to the levels listed in GGMM, except for the protein level.  I used the ratios of protein to nitrogen levels to calculate the nitrogen content of my corn gluten meal and came up with 6.9%, which is right in line with the 6-7% nitrogen levels in corn gluten meal based fertilizer.  Once I figured that out, I decided on a ratio of .5 ounces to 1 lb of sawdust for a .3% nitrogen level.

My head hurts.  I always thought I wouldn't use much math after I got out of school.  Is my math right?  Should the fact that the nitrogen isn't readily available affect the amount I add to the substrate as well?

I went with this amount and made up 4lbs of sawdust using a combination of pine (kitty litter) and hickory (traeger grill pellet) sawdust, 2 oz of corn gluten meal and 3/4 oz of dolemite lime.  The gluten meal was boiled with the substrate water for about half an hour, then all of the dry ingredients were covered in the boiling water in a plastic cat litter bucket, covered with a lid, placed in another bucket and allowed to sit and think about what it's done for a few hours.

Once the substrate was at room temperature, I added two jars of P. eryngii spawn, shook the bucket for a bit, then poured the mixture into a plastic bag lined cardboard box.  I tied the bag closed with a big chunk of polyfill and put it in my incubation area.

I also made up a batch of pine litter sawdust spawn using less nitrogen, and gypsum rather than lime.  This spawn will be "dirty" due to pastuerization rather than sterilization, but I used old elm oyster dowels to inoculate it so its probably "dirty" to begin with. :smile:

The oyster log I made up on Friday using pine litter, coffee grounds and gypsum is colonizing quickly.

I'm going to try some variations on this once I have some idea of how both of  these projects will do.  I'd like to try using compost or other commercial garden microbe products.  I also found cottonseed meal and a nematode treatment that's 25% chitin (75% "inert ingredients") that I would also like to try.

I'll post results of this in a couple of weeks for those who are curious!


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- T. S. Eliot


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Re: Supplements for Pasteurized Sawdust? [Re: Paresthesia]
    #8962337 - 09/21/08 09:11 AM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

See, this is what I'm talking about!  My experiments with fermenting yard waste haven't really come to fruition yet.  I think the bacteria are killing off the spores I've added directly to the substrate, so the next attempt will involve adding established spawn to the bags.  I finally got my wood blewit spore print in the mail, so I'll start with that once I have some strains isolated.



Yes, that matches my observations. Fermented substrates suppress spore germination of mold and edible species. Inoculation with mycelium works better.

Unfortunately I could not find that page, describing how to compost wood chips for shiitake production. I only found a similar description to convert an unsuited type of wood chips into some usable substrate for oysters. From 'Comparative study on the growth and yield of Pleurotus ostreatus
mushroom on different lignocellulosic by-products':
Quote:

Freshly milled sawdust of Triplochiton scleroxylon, moisture
content 30% (w/w) (88 parts), was thoroughly mixed with 11.5
parts rice bran and 0.5 part of calcium oxide. Water was sprinkled
on the mixture until its moisture content was about 70%
(w/w). The mixture was piled up into a pyramidal heap and
allowed to ferment for 28 days. It was turned every fourth day to
ensure proper aeration.





Carsten


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OfflineParesthesia
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Re: Supplements for Pasteurized Sawdust? [Re: Mycelio]
    #8963639 - 09/21/08 01:36 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

This may be a dumb question here, and I'm sure you've thought about it, but what about adding a lactbacillus culture to the medium?  I eat tons of yogurt and I generally just stir the whey in when it forms on the top.  That could be decanted and added to a substrate or casing mix.  Straight yogurt could be added to substrate and provide a nutrient boost as well.

I've also made sourdough starters in the past, and fermented rye for barscz, a polish soup traditionally consumed at Easter.  (Yum yum, lactobacillus pee, rye bread, hard boiled eggs and polish sausage.)  My only concern about using either type of culture would be the wild yeasts living in them.  It's better suited to an acidic environment and I'd worry about it consuming nutrients needed by growing mycelium.


--------------------
"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."

- T. S. Eliot


Edited by Paresthesia (09/21/08 01:38 PM)


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OfflineMycelio
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Re: Supplements for Pasteurized Sawdust? [Re: Paresthesia]
    #8963826 - 09/21/08 02:13 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

I never tried yogurt in my fermentation experiments, because I think there is another type of lactobacillus present than when fermenting grain or straw. I also expect the fat and protein from the milk to favor contams. But these are just assumptions. Whey can be a different story.

Adding yogurt to substrates might be worth a try.

For wood bases substrates I have given up on LAB and anaerobic fermentation. Hot composting with lots of oxygen should be the way to go.


Carsten


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OfflineParesthesia
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Re: Supplements for Pasteurized Sawdust? [Re: Mycelio]
    #8963962 - 09/21/08 02:48 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

Forget about crab meal as a supplement!  It tends to select for bacteria that consume chitin. :eek: I will never ever ever use it for anything ever!


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"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."

- T. S. Eliot


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Re: Supplements for Pasteurized Sawdust? [Re: Mycelio]
    #8965356 - 09/21/08 08:16 PM (15 years, 4 months ago)

So I tore up some dried up chunks of oyster mushroom and tossed them in a bag of fermented yard waste.  They're growing like crazy now.

Okay, I know this isn't unusual, but sometimes the tenacity of these organisms just astounds me!  Especially after working with plants for so long, which are so much fussier.


--------------------
"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time."

- T. S. Eliot


Edited by Paresthesia (09/22/08 05:16 AM)


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Re: Supplements for Pasteurized Sawdust? [Re: Paresthesia]
    #18220914 - 05/06/13 01:47 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Many people uses straw as a base substrate with rice/wheat bran as its supplements. And most people only needs to pasteurize them. Can anyone explain this?

Why does supplemented sawdust needs sterilization while supplemented straw only needs pasteurization?


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Re: Supplements for Pasteurized Sawdust? [Re: ashuntorama]
    #18221434 - 05/06/13 08:29 AM (10 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ashuntorama said:
Many people uses straw as a base substrate with rice/wheat bran as its supplements. And most people only needs to pasteurize them. Can anyone explain this?

Why does supplemented sawdust needs sterilization while supplemented straw only needs pasteurization?




Wow, old thread!

I've never heard of anyone supplementing straw with bran and only pasteurizing.  Straw is usually only pasteurized because it's only supplemented with your grain spawn (wild bird seed, rye, whatever grain), which was already colonized by your fungus of choice.

If you wanted to supplement straw with bran I believe you'd have to sterilize just like with sawdust.


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Edited by Forrester (05/06/13 08:32 AM)


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