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Freedom
    #8949662 -

So if my best guess is correct then nothing matters ultimately. So if that's true then you could say that you are free to do as you choose. This is the biggest benefit of nothing mattering IMO.

BUT

Can you take that freedom and use it? This is the thing that usually gets overlooked when people contemplate this. They think it will be straight sailing. But can you ever get over your cultural programs, your personal bias and fear and guilt, your personal programmed values of right and wrong?

For instance most believe that their interpretations of what is right has more value then what they consider wrong. But if nothing matters that would not be true. All things would have equal value.

To choose to be this or that in the world is all the same except on a personal level. But are you really free to choose?

I don't think we are.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Freedom [Re: Icelander]
    #8949756 -

I don't think either, we can't escape our own workings, be them deterministic or not or neither or both.

Where to go from there I'm not sure. Your not free to, but rather naturally inclined to, consume a share of available energy and it so happen that it leads somewhere and then you die and then some more around late you.

Completely understanding human drama would require to fold and paralyse humanity into itself, whereby human drama wouldn't be anymore. Unless it's already happening.

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Re: Freedom [Re: Icelander]
    #8949762 -

Icelander said:
But are you really free to choose?


Can't hurt to try, though.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Freedom [Re: deCypher]
    #8949784 -

Yes, even if we can never be 100% free, we can increase the degree of freedom with which we live.  :thumbup:

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Re: Freedom [Re: Icelander]
    #8949914 -

Depends on one's outlook I believe.

For instance, if one takes the position of being thrown into this world, so to speak, as a kind of random act, being here by accident, and not by your choice, well then what choices do you really have at all? None I'd say. One's entire experience would be accidental, trivial, insignificant.

On the other hand, if you say it is your choice to exist, then essentially everything matters. It all becomes significant to you because now all your choices stem from that ultimate choice you have made, the choice to be.

It's all about how one chooses to witness his experience in existence. IMO that's our authentic freedom.


--------------------

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Re: Freedom [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #8949980 -

Unfortunately, because things matter to other people, it forces them to matter to you.

You might break into an electronics store and fuck up all the TVs and stereos with a 9 iron cause you think it would be entertaining. You would say nothing matters and you don't care. But to the people who own the store it matters, so they arrest you and send your ass to jail.

I guess if you really thought nothing mattered though, you wouldn't care if you were in jail.

I can't see how anybody with this view point on life would make it very far.

We have to act how society expects us at least in some senses, otherwise we become useless nobodies.


--------------------
Word to your mom.

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Re: Freedom [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #8950010 -

It is easy to pretend to ourselves we are free, but ultimately we're only fighting ourselves. I believe we are always the passenger. I see nothing wrong with this, should we not just go with the flow? Maybe we can act against it but in my experience swimming upstream doesn't get you very far. Eventually you have to let go, no one can swim forever.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Edited by Grapefruit (09/18/08 03:32 PM)

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Re: Freedom [Re: Veritas]
    #8950179 -

Veritas said:
Yes, even if we can never be 100% free, we can increase the degree of freedom with which we live.  :thumbup:


i agree with this, unfortunately, in this society no one can ever be 100% free. the best you can do is try to gain more freedom without pissing people off enough for them to take away all your freedom


--------------------
When you make your peace with authority, you become authority
                                    Jim Morrison

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Re: Freedom [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #8950185 -

It's all about how one chooses to witness his experience in existence. IMO that's our authentic freedom.

That's my point. Maybe you can't really choose how you witness your experience once culturally programmed. I certainly can't


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Freedom [Re: TheAxis]
    #8950191 -

TheAxis said:
Veritas said:
Yes, even if we can never be 100% free, we can increase the degree of freedom with which we live.  :thumbup:


i agree with this, unfortunately, in this society no one can ever be 100% free. the best you can do is try to gain more freedom without pissing people off enough for them to take away all your freedom


I think that very few of our restrictions are imposed by others.  This cage unlocks from the inside.

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Re: Freedom [Re: Veritas]
    #8950202 -

Actually I disagree. Can you say your parenting was not imposed upon you and that it is not the major influence on your acts today?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Freedom [Re: Icelander]
    #8950218 -

"Imposed" in the sense that we will be punished if we do not comply.  While our internalized ideas may not have been originated voluntarily, there is no one currently standing over us to punish us if we choose to stop believing those ideas.

Would these restrictions still be in place if one sustained brain damage, and could not longer remember the events of their childhood?  Probably not.  Thus they are not imposed by others.

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Re: Freedom [Re: Veritas]
    #8950238 -

As a child they are imposed IMO. I did not choose to learn english or to believe in god. That was implanted in me. While I may desire to change now it could be impossible to change all those programs.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Freedom [Re: Icelander]
    #8950246 -

I said "very few" restrictions are imposed by others.  The restrictions which date from childhood were certainly imposed then, but are not being enforced now by anyone but ourselves.

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Re: Freedom [Re: Veritas]
    #8950253 -

I used to stand up to wipe my bum when I was a kid, but now I do it from the side. :thumbup:


--------------------
Word to your mom.

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Re: Freedom [Re: Veritas]
    #8950258 -

Yes yes I know. That's actually what my thread is about. I don't really think many of us have the capacity to change all those programs we feel are unhealthy.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Freedom [Re: Icelander]
    #8950272 -

Yes, you already know that I agree with that. :smile:  A greater degree of freedom is a reasonable goal, though.

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Re: Freedom [Re: Icelander]
    #8950593 -

i like to define freedom as a boundless life

if youd like to just 'live' then who care about freedom

you are even bound by very the concept of freedom

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Re: Freedom [Re: Icelander]
    #8951674 -

So what is "using your freedom" anyway?

Choosing the role you play?

Choosing how to deal with your mind-body?

Describe freedom. First you have to name what entity is free from what forces. So what are "you"? It seems to me that if you identify with the manifested, like your body or your thoughts, you are not totally free because there are physical and psychological forces acting on these things. But if you identify with the unmanifested, then....?

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Re: Freedom [Re: Icelander]
    #8952311 -

Icelander said:
For instance most believe that their interpretations of what is right has more value then what they consider wrong. But if nothing matters that would not be true. All things would have equal value. 


Well, when you do something that you know to be "right", it gives you that warm fuzzy feeling....
And when you do something that you know to be "wrong", it can also give you that warm fuzzy feeling....
(unless you inflict guilt upon yourself and feel "bad" or "dirty", yadda yadda)....

If nothing mattered, and there was no "right" or "wrong", you wouldn't be able to get the warm fuzzy feelings anymore.....    :frown:   
Where is there room for a self rewarding system of surging blissful brain chemicals in world of living with neutral values towards your every action....???    :hissyfit:    :thumbdown:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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