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Offlineunlucky247
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Registered: 09/09/08
Posts: 7
Last seen: 15 years, 5 months
Re: People who just dont get it [Re: davedes]
    #9005466 - 09/29/08 09:50 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

what you fail to realize is everyone is different.  Phsycadellics are a bit to much for me to handle. My mind is very litterally a scarey place,  I have a dark past and life has not been kind to me until recently.  I am giving shrooms maybe LSD another shot otherwise ill just stick with weed :wink:

I respect you guys and the level you reach I just dont think its for me.... when it comes down to it we all will hang out you can trip and ill laugh my ass off at you while im stoned.  :smile:

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OfflinestraightedgeLOL
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Re: People who just dont get it [Re: unlucky247]
    #9005579 - 09/29/08 10:15 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I respect your decisions I would never get mad at someone if they said a certain thing was not for them. Everyone is different and everyone reacts to certain things differently. It's all preference. If you are happy with weed then good for you. I love it too man. Blow some smoke my way I'm all out unfortunately.

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Offlinepsikooz
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Re: People who just dont get it [Re: berbonber]
    #9005591 - 09/29/08 10:19 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

You never know, even the author of this thread might not get it.

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InvisibleBridgeburner
Not spiritual at all.
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Re: People who just dont get it [Re: psikooz]
    #9006613 - 09/30/08 03:48 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

i take hella amounts of mushrooms so i get fucked uuuuuuuuuuuup yeahhh!




i take low doses. i don't think quantity equals "deep" trip. why should it?


--------------------

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OfflineTheArsenal
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Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 83
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Re: People who just dont get it [Re: Plasmid]
    #9008693 - 09/30/08 02:55 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Plasmid said:
Quote:

halo said:
Honestly it does bother me when I find out someone trips only to learn that they just do it because it's another way of "getting fucked up".
. . .
I don't get mad at people who "just don't get it".




You obviously see a reason for believing that learning from psychedelic experiences must be possible.  To those who "don't get it" they either are unaware of such a possibility or simply don't believe that it could be true.  If that's the case, then you likely see these people as either ignorant or simply mistaken (about a psychedelic's ability to teach).

How did you become convinced that psychedelics can teach you?  Do you really think that you can use your own experiences and knowledge about these drugs to convince someone that there's more to these drugs than just altering perceptions?  Or to at least consider it a possibility?

Someone in another post said something about simply seeing these experiences as perturbations of our neurological systems.  You might find it a bit baffling when someone simply doesn't see the opportunity to learn from psychedelics, but really think about it: how would you go about trying to convince a skeptical person that psychedelics can teach?

I asked for evidence and an argument above in order to challenge the group to come up with something convincing.  The fact that nobody has posted a good response doesn't mean that none exists, but it does make me more curious about what reasons people have for believing that psychedelics may catalyze learning experiences.

It may simply be the case that some people don't believe that psychedelics offer learning experiences simply because nobody has ever tried to present a convincing case.

Altered perception in itself, isn't much of an answer, imo.  Ethanol alters perception, but generally it's not considered an "Ego Game Dissolving Solvent" but rather just some poisonous solvent.  Someone in another post said something about how shrooms aren't a drug, but they are - in every damn sense of the word - so what the fuck makes shrooms so special?  5HT2A partial agonism?  Yeah?  Why?  What does that even mean?

I think that shrooms can teach you about as much as a fictional novel can teach you (which, in the grand scheme of things, is very little).  I'm probably closer to the unpopular end of the spectrum, as I don't see psilocin as producing learning experiences.  Some here might find it very easy to be dismissive of me*, but do you really think that you could even give a half-good reason for thinking something like "psilocin can help you learn."

* - and really, all of my past posts taken together, mean aboslutely nothing with respect to this point of view. What matters is my argument, not the fact that I'm an arrogant fuckhead about telling you how illogical your arguments are and not the fact that you simply disagree with me and want to call me an idiot.  Arguments stand on their own.




If we learn and have assimilated our self through a sober state of consciousness, then its equally logical to learn, experience, and grow through altered states of consciousness, too. They are both states of mind and both have their own insights to offer into the self. To completely dismiss that is...what...believing sobriety is the only true lens of perception?

If you believe they have nothing to teach, then they don't. In the end, it has nothing to do with beliefs, though. Beliefs and your bias to them have led you to assume that they have no insightful or meaningful purpose, thus they don't. You have let your expectations guide your experience, rather than let your experiences humble your expectations.

I don't see how you can dismiss an altered state of perception, because perception is unique in the fact that is not set in stone and constantly changing. It is not an answer, not a truth, it is a subjective lens through which we view our world at all times. We all experience this phenomenon differently. It is not a definitive answer to anything, therefore why be unwilling to explore all the perception you can? To learn at all times? Why not do that, rather than closing off that possibility?

On the other hand, you don't think fiction has anything to offer...so that says a lot about your expectations of learning from the immaterial...none? Does it have to be "real" to count or something?

Oh, and my final stance on this subject is: its pretentious to think "he doesn't get it". We all learn differently, so there's really nothing definitive to get. It would be boring if we were all the same.


--------------------
To be reborn is to feel whole, as you did when you were first born. You come with nothing, and leave with nothing.

Life is like a big obstacle
put in front of your optical to slow you down
And everytime you think you gotten past it
it's gonna come back around and tackle you to the damn ground

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: People who just dont get it [Re: TheArsenal]
    #9022018 - 10/03/08 02:16 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TheArsenal said:
If we learn and have assimilated our self through a sober state of consciousness, then its equally logical to learn, experience, and grow through altered states of consciousness, too.




I agree with this and I think that I've made it clear that I do believe that it is possible to learn while on a psychedelic or even from a psychedelic experience itself.

What I am not convinced of it that these experiences represent opportunities for accelerated learning.

Quote:

They are both states of mind and both have their own insights to offer into the self. To completely dismiss that is...what...believing sobriety is the only true lens of perception?




If that's what you think I'm getting at, you're greatly mistaken.  I also agree that psychedelic experiences, as learning experiences, have their own properties and hence offer different lessons.  I'm simply saying that I don't believe that psychedelic experiences offer accelerated learning or that these lessons are necessarily unique to psychedelic experiences.

I am not at all dismissive of the psychedelic state of mind.  I think that by asking whether or not 'believing sobriety is the only true lens. . .' is getting way out of the subject matter that I was addressing.  I, at least, was not discussing whether or not a psychedelic mind set could allow for learning and valid insights - I believe that one can learn and come to just as valid insights about reality while in a psychedelic state of mind as while sober.  I just don't see any reason to think that psychedelics often a way to learn faster or learn about something (especially a philosophical concept) any faster than sitting one could while soberly reading a book.

That is to say that, my view of psychedelic experiences as is that they have just as much potential to be used as learning experience as many other experiences have, but I'm not convinced that psychedelics lead to accelerated learning.  That is, I see a psychedelic trip as being as much of a potential learning experience as any other experience which one must decide to invest the time into (such as one would by putting effort into studying, riding a bike or playing an instrument).

Quote:

If you believe they have nothing to teach, then they don't.




While I think that it may be generally the case that a person expecting to learn nothing will learn nothing from them, I think it's plain wrong to phrase it as though it were an inherent property of a psychedelic drug.

Quote:

Beliefs and your bias to them have led you to assume that they have no insightful or meaningful purpose . . .




Stop right there.

Don't tell me what I believe.

You've been barking up the wrong tree with the questions you're asking and now you're telling me that I believe things which I don't.

My thinking on the utility of psychedelics for learning is also biased by a few hundred psychedelic experiences, some of which I do felt I used as learning tools - but I've also found that those experiences are few and far between and take effort - effort just like any other time I wanted to learn something.

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Invisiblethedudenj
Man of the Woods

Registered: 08/18/04
Posts: 14,684
Re: People who just dont get it [Re: Plasmid]
    #9022525 - 10/03/08 07:34 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

but really what is there to get?

i think people that cant just use it for fun arnt happy with life to the point that they dont exactly no how to have fun like that which they cant get. tho that might of been said already i only read this and the first pagelol


--------------------

"You all are just  puppets... You have no heart...and cannot feel any pain...""
you may think thats pain you feel but you must have a heart to feel true pain and that pain wont be yours

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InvisibleQuantumReality
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Registered: 05/20/07
Posts: 3,203
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Re: People who just dont get it [Re: thedudenj]
    #9022567 - 10/03/08 07:53 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

i think that sacred mushrooms are both good for having fun and learning something new about yourself, the choice is yours

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OfflineDoidleTheDigger
nuby skeptic with help
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Registered: 08/17/08
Posts: 103
Loc: yomama
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Re: People who just dont get it [Re: QuantumReality]
    #9022704 - 10/03/08 08:45 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

to be honest i think there are lots of drugs that could be used to aid learning,
mushrooms:different perspective
speed:faster thinking...



just because something can help you learn at times doesn't make it good,  mushrooms are most certainly an illicit drug, so it should be illegal if you believe that people shouldnt be allowed to  do what they want to their bodys

no law stops someone drinking or smoking to death, why should it be different with anything else?

just so noone gets confused, im not condoning use of addictive drugs, im just saying used properly anything can be good


--------------------
"Git 'Er Done!"
"the sooner you start the sooner you get"
"if i ever hear you tell someone else ill stab you"
All of my posts are fictional

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: People who just dont get it [Re: Plasmid]
    #9022758 - 10/03/08 09:03 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Every path of learning is unique,
Psychedelic experience is the only thing that can truly teach you what it is like to experience psychedelics.
Since the drug becomes a part of you it can be very self actualizing.

Psychedelics will likely not accelerate your ability to learn calculus. Maybe your ability to learn about your ability to learn about calculus though.


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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InvisibleQuantumReality
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Re: People who just dont get it [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #9022914 - 10/03/08 09:54 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:

Psychedelics will likely not accelerate your ability to learn calculus. Maybe your ability to learn about your ability to learn about calculus though.




:lol: haha classic

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Offlinedavedes
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Registered: 05/20/08
Posts: 41
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Re: People who just dont get it [Re: Plasmid]
    #9023012 - 10/03/08 10:27 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Plasmid said:
It's not that I think that you can't or don't learn from them.  It's that I don't think you necessarily learn any more from them than if you were sober and doing something else.



It depends on what the alternative activity is. A day of sober video gaming, for example, is often less insightful than a day of psychedelics. Both cases have the potential to teach you new things, but the quality and content of the knowledge gained is what differs so substantially.

Quote:

Plasmid said:
I just don't see any reason to think that psychedelics often a way to learn faster or learn about something (especially a philosophical concept) any faster than sitting one could while soberly reading a book.



In some cases, the radical change in perspective is the accelerated learning. An example of this is the use of psychedelics in treating alcoholism, drug addiction, and severe anxiety.

YouTube - Psilocybin and Cancer Anxiety (Part 1)
YouTube - Psilocybin and Cancer Anxiety (Part 2)

Edited by davedes (10/03/08 10:29 AM)

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InvisibleQuantumReality
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Re: People who just dont get it [Re: davedes]
    #9023051 - 10/03/08 10:40 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

lol hes obviously a lost cause

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: People who just dont get it [Re: ExplosiveMango]
    #9023152 - 10/03/08 11:05 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Psychedelics will likely not accelerate your ability to learn calculus. Maybe your ability to learn about your ability to learn about calculus though.




The most profound learning experience I had with LSD involved studying math in grade 11.  It was the ability to visualize how functions worked with helped.  I think what a psychedelic might assist one in learning about is going to depend on the individual's strengths and weaknesses.

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: People who just dont get it [Re: QuantumReality]
    #9023162 - 10/03/08 11:06 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

I'm here saying I'm not convinced of something.  That's the first link that someone provides and you automatically say that the towel should be thrown in.

To the other poster, thanks for the video links.

Quote:

It depends on what the alternative activity is. A day of sober video gaming, for example, is often less insightful than a day of psychedelics. Both cases have the potential to teach you new things, but the quality and content of the knowledge gained is what differs so substantially.




I think I've been agreeing with that kind of statement.  A day of video games is probably not very conductive to learning, nor is a day of video games while high on LSD.  Learning experiences require energy to be put into them, which includes learning while on psychedelics.  What can you learn about while on psychedelics?  Anything.  Same things you can learn about while sober.  I really think that I've been saying this sort of thing repeatedly.  I can go into a ton of variations on how it is possible to learn on psychedelics.  I do believe it is.  What I specifically don't believe is that a psychedelic could be considered a generalized learning tool or tool for accelerated learning.  Just like with any other type of learning, it requires effort.

My own example with learning on psychedelics mostly has to do with studying math, since visualizing with LSD helped.

As for something like LSD being able to improve the attitudes of terminally ill cancer patients (I believe there was a study out of Europe on this once), I don't really consider that learning in the sense I mean.  Learning how to deal with anxiety or other difficult emotions, yes, I do think psychedelics have a special ability to offer a different perspective on one's self - for sure.  I still think that just as much effort has to go into the learning process however.  If I were to continue referring to positive emotional effects which can result from psychedelics as being due to 'learning' (which I think is a bit of an over-simplification), then I'd also have to say that their medicinal potential is due to the altered perception they offer.

And since I anticipate that someone will somehow completely misunderstand me to think that I just said that "psychedelics have no medicinal value" - I'll state right now that I do think that psychedelics have obvious medical potential.

Edited by Plasmid (10/03/08 11:24 AM)

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OfflineExplosiveMango
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Re: People who just dont get it [Re: Plasmid]
    #9023655 - 10/03/08 01:24 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Plasmid said:
Quote:

ExplosiveMango said:
Psychedelics will likely not accelerate your ability to learn calculus. Maybe your ability to learn about your ability to learn about calculus though.




The most profound learning experience I had with LSD involved studying math in grade 11.  It was the ability to visualize how functions worked with helped.  I think what a psychedelic might assist one in learning about is going to depend on the individual's strengths and weaknesses.




You are ironic.
So much for my effort to justify your doubt in accelerated learning experiences due to psychedelics. :tongue::shrug:

But yes, I too being in a scientific trade, have had great secondary benefits on my math conceptualization due to mind expansion.

In our culture math is often taught as if it is such a definitive thing, completely objective; having it unveiled in the light of your subjectivity is like d/dx'ing yourself. The trick is having an advanced enough understanding to 'integrate your experience' effectively afterwards. :grin:

Calculus may have actually been a poor example of something hard to assist with psychedelics; after all it's time dilation made tangible...


--------------------
Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.

The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.

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Offlinedavedes
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Re: People who just dont get it [Re: Plasmid]
    #9023694 - 10/03/08 01:30 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

What I specifically don't believe is that a psychedelic could be considered a generalized learning tool or tool for accelerated learning.  Just like with any other type of learning, it requires effort.



I agree, you can't drop acid and simply expect knowledge to flow into your brain. In that sense, psychedelics aren't to be used as general "learning tools." However, in certain situations, they certainly can be used to enhance and even accelerate learning.

Quote:

I don't really consider that learning in the sense I mean.



In which sense are you referring to? Seems like learning to me.

Take the specific example of drug addicts, as mentioned in the video. Under the influence of psychedelics, the addicts, particularly when presented with a mirror, "saw themselves as others saw them." This change in perspective allowed them to learn more about themselves and their problem. In some cases, a single session was all that was needed to remove their addiction. In this case, when compared to classical addiction therapies, it certainly can be said that psychedelics have the potential to enhance and accelerate learning.

Of course, this potential for enhanced learning need not be limited to purely subjective feelings. Many individuals (including Nobel-prize winners Karry Mullins and Francis Crick, according to this article) have used psychedelics to gain insight about art, technology, chemistry, biology, the universe, even so-called spirituality.

Psychedelics will not show you the answer -- but they can show you the problem from a very different perspective. :wink:

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OfflinePlasmid
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Re: People who just dont get it [Re: davedes]
    #9025535 - 10/03/08 07:48 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

The thing about examples like Mullis and Crick is that their accomplishments don't at all serve as examples of what psychedelics can achieve.  The first problem is bias, in that Mullis or Crick may be giving more credit to the psychedelic's effect than is due.  Really though, there's no reason to think that either one of them would not have made their discoveries without psychedelics.  In all seriousness, it is still fair to wonder whether or PCR would have been invented sooner or the double-helical structure of DNA proposed earlier had either of these two NOT been using LSD.

Ok, when it comes to talking about "learning", I do accept the kind of thing you're talking about to also be "learning."  I was just clarifying that prior to this point in the discussion, I was talking about explicit learning (math, riding a bike, etc. - I don't want to have to propose a huge definition, so I'll just hope that you know what I mean ).

I accept that psychedelics could enhance learning and that if they did so, they're probably better at enhancing different skills or tools or knowledge sets in different people to different extents.  I do think that it still requires effort and that in the end, a psychedelic has as much potential to enhance learning as a blank piece of paper and pen helps when doing practicing math.  I'm not convinced of any added benefit beyond any other learning tool which one would have to invest energy in.

When it comes to the kind of interpersonal or emotional learning which psychedelics might aid though, I'm still pretty skeptical of that.  I see that kind of learning as being parallel to ideas of enlightenment - which is a criticism because I think that it is ideologically entrenched in many psychedelic idealists and it suppresses critical thought.  IMO, a lot of the "insights" people come up with about themselves could very well be complete nonsense.  Often the benefit of these "insights" comes from the fact that people believe that they're true and they positively changes one's attitude (which may actually suggest self-deception).

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: People who just dont get it [Re: Plasmid]
    #9025783 - 10/03/08 08:35 PM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Plasmid said:Often the benefit of these "insights" comes from the fact that people believe that they're true and they positively changes one's attitude (which may actually suggest self-deception).




If you believe that you're happy (regardless of whether the belief is a delusion), aren't you really happy?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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OfflineTheArsenal
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Re: People who just dont get it [Re: deCypher]
    #9027081 - 10/04/08 02:51 AM (15 years, 5 months ago)

Plasmid, I was never assuming you were talking about "accelerated learning", because yes, that's retarded. I just thought you were talking about normal learning, you know, like being conscious and assimilating experiences, creating conclusions, forming ideas, and constantly changing.

I don't think it accelerates anything. I just think it gives you a new perspective. You can learn or not, it just gives you a new way to. Its a different way of thinking and means nothing past what you make it mean. That's the beauty of meaning.

Once again, I don't think there is anything to get. Its all subjective and people all take different meaning out of conscious interaction with this world. Why would psychedelics be any exception to human nature?


--------------------
To be reborn is to feel whole, as you did when you were first born. You come with nothing, and leave with nothing.

Life is like a big obstacle
put in front of your optical to slow you down
And everytime you think you gotten past it
it's gonna come back around and tackle you to the damn ground

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